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What caused the beatmap style to change?

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Maeglwn
Maeglwn

Kheldragar wrote:

Then replace "me" with some random player of the general public. Too bad if a map is too difficult for you - fucking get better to play it. There's lots of maps available at lower skill levels, stop whinging that some mappers make some songs you can't play.
you completely missed the point of the post, it's not that people are too bad to play it, it's that maps are specificially getting harder and harder to the point where it takes the best players time to even pass them. mashley explained it pretty well earlier, people are mapping for difficulty, easy as that

Lach wrote:

Realistically, that's why people enforce difficulty spreads. So there's something for everyone to play. Mapping something difficult for high end players, providing it is good, should be encouraged as long as there's adequate stuff for everyone else to play. And you know this.
lach you and I both know there's issues with ~ s p r e a d ~ all of the time that just gets overlooked
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Maeglwn wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

Then replace "me" with some random player of the general public. Too bad if a map is too difficult for you - fucking get better to play it. There's lots of maps available at lower skill levels, stop whinging that some mappers make some songs you can't play.
you completely missed the point of the post, it's not that people are too bad to play it, it's that maps are specificially getting harder and harder to the point where it takes the best players time to even pass them. mashley explained it pretty well earlier, people are mapping for difficulty, easy as that
And I really, really don't see the problem with that; I just don't.
Maeglwn
Maeglwn

Kheldragar wrote:

And I really, really don't see the problem with that; I just don't.
because difficulty is being artificially increased by overmapping things that shouldn't be overmapped

if you look at some of the newer 7 star maps, this is especially apparent. its all over the map. that's not quality, that's difficulty spikes to try and be the most popular
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
It's a basic principle of what makes a good map that it should connect with the music. For the last few years of course the majority of mappers have forgotten about that.

But what do I care, I don't even play this game any more lol. Peace.

EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
Astrofiziks
192 posts
Joined April 2015
Astrofiziks
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
they're fun, i love fun and also transformers
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh
I feel that some newer dnb maps are particularly overmapped. DnB maps have this problem because "muh dnb" so people end up mapping beats that aren't there just because dnb

Other than that, if the map isn't just a patternless mess, I don't really mind it being slightly jumpy
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

Astrofiziks wrote:

EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
they're fun, i love fun and also transformers
same here. love newer maps a lot. although they don't always make sense in many ways. but fun is what matters most to me in a game.

not so much agreed on the transformers part. the last movie wasn't for me. also not so much of an avengers or any other random marvel movie enthusiast. neither can i watch the latest overhyped kancolle fanservice anime without getting a permaheadache =/
Astrofiziks
192 posts
Joined April 2015
Astrofiziks
same here. love newer maps a lot. although they don't always make sense in many ways. but fun is what matters most to me in a game.

not so much agreed on the transformers part. the last movie wasn't for me. also not so much of an avengers or any other random marvel movie enthusiast. neither can i watch the latest overhyped kancolle fanservice anime without getting a permaheadache =/
i'll be honest i've never seen a single transformers movie actually

but yeah, i like the newer maps, though that may be just because i've only been playing this game for a little over a month. love me some jumps
E m i
E m i

Mashley wrote:

EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
ad hominemification strong
Nathan
Beatmap Nominator
2,144 posts
Joined August 2014
Nathan

B1rd wrote:

I don't see how any mapping standards have dropped, and I quite enjoy playing the variety of mapping styles.
Actually, mapping standards have recently been rising.
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
pandaBee

Maeglwn wrote:

yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watch
lol wut
byfar
1,186 posts
Joined July 2014
byfar
we map for aesthetics
ay
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Maeglwn wrote:

it changed when people realized you can put excessively dumb jumps into maps where they make little to no sense and have people like it because it's innovative and edgy

nowadays now we just have every other map massively overmapped to unplayability and yet people have shifted their standards back so far that its considered, to this day, to be innovative and creative

sad life
Pretty much all (ranked) maps today are mapped to the beat appropriately, and all of them ARE playable. A jump to you may be "dumb" but that's what the mapper feels and obviously if it caters todays standards then you have an unpopular opinion.

Personally I don't like to map easy difficulties because it bores me, I'd rather map something with large spacing because I think it allows more freedom in mapping by allowing more usage of the space given. That doesn't mean that I'm overmapping, and just because a portion of the community can't play it means it's unplayable either, and it definitely doesn't mean I'm not being "innovative and creative" to higher standards

The word overmapping is so funny, because everybody throws it around whenever a map they don't like comes up. Maps people can't comprehend or can't play are also considered "overmapped" because of their difficulties.
Maps like image material and big black were all considered "terrible overmapped maps" by the less skilled player communities, yet if you slow down the BPM it suddenly becomes a work of art
Friendan
229 posts
Joined April 2014
Friendan
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Friendan wrote:

overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
No, there is no way a map 'should' be made. 'Overmapping' isn't necessarily bad, there are plenty of good maps that are overmapped.

I agree with what buny said.
Nathan
Beatmap Nominator
2,144 posts
Joined August 2014
Nathan

Friendan wrote:

overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
There is nothing wrong with the rhythms of luvoratory, in fact, the majority of the them are on beat anyways. Maps are supposed to follow the most prominent sounds in the song, not just what's on beat. In luvoratory's case, some of those just happened to be off beat. It wasn't even mapped out to the max, if you listen closely plenty more notes could have been added, but HW mainly focused on the strongest ones.

B1rd wrote:

No, there is no way a map 'should' be made.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Friendan wrote:

overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
that's not even a popular map, though. And majority of maps are not mapped like that; look at the rest of the difficulties in that mapset too

HW is also known to have a unique mapping style
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
I like map. play all map.
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,659 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
Trends over time gradually result in changes that while seemingly minor on their own, build up to a greater overall differences. This is also true for mapping, yah?
Yah???
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Friendan wrote:

overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
Overmapping = Mapping something that doesn't exist in the song.

Example: Random triples/streams in that generic TV Size song/map because otherwise it would be way too boring just spamming 1/2s and jumps everywhere.

Better example: When you actually try to add something to a song/map by adding a triple/short stream before a chorus/in a bridge/as an outro, whatever that would make sense with the song.

Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".

By the way you can't actually place an object off-beat in the editor, since everything has to be snapped to something. You could maybe consider anything placed on >1/8 snap off-beat stuff though, but it's extremely rare to have a lonely note being actually snapped on 1/12 - 1/16 snap, most of the time it happens to be a BPM change, or just an actual off-beat note.
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
Overmapped = https://osu.ppy.sh/b/532841 HW's Insane (play without hitsounds to easily see overmapped notes). I like map.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/384926 bad overmapping
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

GoldenWolf wrote:

Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".

Agree! No Dap for example makes some of my favourite maps and often likes to add triples randomly. Never felt like there was a problem with it when playing.

buny wrote:

Personally I don't like to map easy difficulties because it bores me, I'd rather map something with large spacing because I think it allows more freedom in mapping by allowing more usage of the space given. That doesn't mean that I'm overmapping, and just because a portion of the community can't play it means it's unplayable either, and it definitely doesn't mean I'm not being "innovative and creative" to higher standards
I think enforced difficulty spreads are one of the very few reasons why maps/map sets might end up with lower quality. Mappers are forced to go back multiple times and remap every song section again after already being bored from mapping their one or two favourite difficulties they've finished with loads of effort.

I really like to take my time mapping my first diffs because not only at that point I am having still a blast with that particular song but also want to create something unique and fun to play to do this song justice. Moving down in diff to finish the spread it is getting more tedious with every rewind and testplay though...

sukiNathan wrote:

B1rd wrote:

I don't see how any mapping standards have dropped, and I quite enjoy playing the variety of mapping styles.
Actually, mapping standards have recently been rising.
Oh, I need to save this link! Good read! :o
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Duh, that's why you just outsource all the easy maps to guest diffs.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

Infevo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".
Agree! No Dap for example makes some of my favourite maps and often likes to add triples randomly. Never felt like there was a problem with it when playing.
Never felt it in his maps. Whenever you want to make sure something's random or not, throw it in the editor and play it at 25% or 50% speed

Also links would be appreciated

and as a "mapper" (I should start taking it seriously)

Kheldragar wrote:

Duh, that's why you just outsource all the easy maps to guest diffs.
is so very true
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
The real ones just map 5+ minutes songs :^)
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

GoldenWolf wrote:

The real ones just map 5+ minutes songs :^)
That's actually one of the first things I look for in a song :(

how sad is this
trebby
489 posts
Joined August 2014
trebby
peppy originally started the game off as a copy of the NDS game for the PC, and if you see any of the maps for the NDS game, you'd know why 2008 mapping was so linear. Times changed, and people needed something more difficult to play.
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