I can nearly taste the salt while reading thisMashley wrote:
Real truth bomb coming through
Mapping basically changed because of people trying to outdo each other in how hard they could make their maps. Because the reality mappers should accept is that the vast majority of songs just are not appropriate for these uber-hard maps they want to make, but they want to map these songs anyway. So as a more experienced playerbase started demanding more difficult maps, mappers responded by throwing out the basic principles which used to hold mapping together and just making everything stupidly difficult with no regard for consistency with the music.
A lot of the stuff that is considered normal now caused huge shitstorms back then, but eventually there were so many people making these maps that people stopped caring and it became accepted.
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What caused the beatmap style to change?
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buny wrote:
I can nearly taste the salt while reading thisMashley wrote:
Real truth bomb coming through
Mapping basically changed because of people trying to outdo each other in how hard they could make their maps. Because the reality mappers should accept is that the vast majority of songs just are not appropriate for these uber-hard maps they want to make, but they want to map these songs anyway. So as a more experienced playerbase started demanding more difficult maps, mappers responded by throwing out the basic principles which used to hold mapping together and just making everything stupidly difficult with no regard for consistency with the music.
A lot of the stuff that is considered normal now caused huge shitstorms back then, but eventually there were so many people making these maps that people stopped caring and it became accepted.
Id be happy if mappers could find a compromise between the old and new styles
Maybe it's unfair to expect people who weren't there to appreciate the way that this game and its community has changed? I dunno.
Mashley wrote:
Maybe it's unfair to expect people who weren't there to appreciate the way that this game and its community has changed? I dunno.
I guess we don't have access to old maps - they've all gone away no longer able to be played
I think the causes are kinda logic - and it's also due to the fact that thousands of songs in osu! sound pretty much the same.pandaBee wrote:
what has given us thousands of copies of the same beatmap - just with different songs attached.
Back then no one really had a clue how to do an objectively good beatmap, everyone just tried things and beatmaps ended up being good or bad.
Now some of the smarter folks looked at the good maps they/others did and figured some things out that work:
The most ruining thing for the modern beatmapping is the idea of putting an own percussion line via hitsounds.
While this idea can produce very good results when used in sensible spots and being executed with consistence it went out of hand and people who played some of such maps were like:
"huh, that beatmap's cool, i could just make some circles and sliders for my favorite song that aren't connected to the melody or anything and have my own beatmap!" while not understanding why the beatmapper did that in the specific case nor how he did it - i think the same kind of mapper also likes to include hipster-slidershapes.
The result are beatmaps that are kind of random and don't focus on the special needs of a song. If you have bad luck the mapper doesn't even include melody at the refrain but just puts a new drumline that is subconsciously influenced by the refrain which makes it even more confusing. Another problem connected with this is that these maps are easily playable and don't feel wrong in particular which is why regular modders that never thought about this will just play it through, think "ok, this is playable" and leave it being - I have to point out here though that at least the inconsistencies in this particular way of mapping usually get noticed and modded accordingly(even though the song might have deserved something better than that).
Old maps don't have this particular problem as much as this style wasn't popular back then(usually they're heavily focused on melody) but they tend to have other problems that modern beatmaps successfully avoid.
I don't know, let's take this map(the hard diff):
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/359972
Even though it's very simple(or maybe because of that) this map absolutely makes sense. There is no room for any doubt or questions, the hitsounds are ligned up with the vocals 100%. On the opposite take pretty much any hard diff from Fycho. The majority of them makes sense too(the ones i played at least) but it's a lot harder to grasp as he switches between vocals and drumline very often and while it feels right you don't get any theoretical understanding of how he did it by just playing it which is why maps will feel similar if they somehow mix vocals+drumline even though they aren't similar at all.
buny wrote:
basically, people started realising that small circles, low ar, consistent 1x ds spacing was a horrible way of mapping
Ohh this so much.
I personally love how beatmaps are being made now. Especially all the TV sizes.
Maeglwn
it changed when people realized you can put excessively dumb jumps into maps where they make little to no sense and have people like it because it's innovative and edgy
nowadays now we just have every other map massively overmapped to unplayability and yet people have shifted their standards back so far that its considered, to this day, to be innovative and creative
sad life
nowadays now we just have every other map massively overmapped to unplayability and yet people have shifted their standards back so far that its considered, to this day, to be innovative and creative
sad life
You really think people would like maps that are unplayable just because they're 'innovative and edgy'? Maybe they like the maps because they're fun to play?Maeglwn wrote:
it changed when people realized you can put excessively dumb jumps into maps where they make little to no sense and have people like it because it's innovative and edgy
nowadays now we just have every other map massively overmapped to unplayability and yet people have shifted their standards back so far that its considered, to this day, to be innovative and creative
sad life
Maeglwn
yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watchB1rd wrote:
You really think people would like maps that are unplayable just because they're 'innovative and edgy'? Maybe they like the maps because they're fun to play?
You sound a bit bitter that people aren't mapping things exclusively for you and should cater to you.Maeglwn wrote:
yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watchB1rd wrote:
You really think people would like maps that are unplayable just because they're 'innovative and edgy'? Maybe they like the maps because they're fun to play?
Maeglwn
lol, what? I only map, I don't actually play that often anymore, it's just a general analyzation of the maps that have been popular and ranked lately, that's all. I really couldn't care less about things being made for "me"Kheldragar wrote:
You sound a bit bitter that people aren't mapping things exclusively for you and should cater to you.
Realistically, that's why people enforce difficulty spreads. So there's something for everyone to play. Mapping something difficult for high end players, providing it is good, should be encouraged as long as there's adequate stuff for everyone else to play. And you know this.Maeglwn wrote:
yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watchB1rd wrote:
You really think people would like maps that are unplayable just because they're 'innovative and edgy'? Maybe they like the maps because they're fun to play?
Then replace "me" with some random player of the general public. Too bad if a map is too difficult for you - fucking get better to play it. There's lots of maps available at lower skill levels, stop whinging that some mappers make some songs you can't play.Maeglwn wrote:
lol, what? I only map, I don't actually play that often anymore, it's just a general analyzation of the maps that have been popular and ranked lately, that's all. I really couldn't care less about things being made for "me"Kheldragar wrote:
You sound a bit bitter that people aren't mapping things exclusively for you and should cater to you.
Well doesn't it makes sense that there are people mapping for the top .5% which are the people who play the game the most? And considering there are thousands of thousands of mapsets of low difficulty maps that cater to infrequent/casual players, and that every expert map has to have low difficulties includes, I'm not sure what your problem is.Maeglwn wrote:
yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watch
I don't see how any mapping standards have dropped, and I quite enjoy playing the variety of mapping styles.
Maeglwn
you completely missed the point of the post, it's not that people are too bad to play it, it's that maps are specificially getting harder and harder to the point where it takes the best players time to even pass them. mashley explained it pretty well earlier, people are mapping for difficulty, easy as thatKheldragar wrote:
Then replace "me" with some random player of the general public. Too bad if a map is too difficult for you - fucking get better to play it. There's lots of maps available at lower skill levels, stop whinging that some mappers make some songs you can't play.
lach you and I both know there's issues with ~ s p r e a d ~ all of the time that just gets overlookedLach wrote:
Realistically, that's why people enforce difficulty spreads. So there's something for everyone to play. Mapping something difficult for high end players, providing it is good, should be encouraged as long as there's adequate stuff for everyone else to play. And you know this.
And I really, really don't see the problem with that; I just don't.Maeglwn wrote:
you completely missed the point of the post, it's not that people are too bad to play it, it's that maps are specificially getting harder and harder to the point where it takes the best players time to even pass them. mashley explained it pretty well earlier, people are mapping for difficulty, easy as thatKheldragar wrote:
Then replace "me" with some random player of the general public. Too bad if a map is too difficult for you - fucking get better to play it. There's lots of maps available at lower skill levels, stop whinging that some mappers make some songs you can't play.
Maeglwn
because difficulty is being artificially increased by overmapping things that shouldn't be overmappedKheldragar wrote:
And I really, really don't see the problem with that; I just don't.
if you look at some of the newer 7 star maps, this is especially apparent. its all over the map. that's not quality, that's difficulty spikes to try and be the most popular
It's a basic principle of what makes a good map that it should connect with the music. For the last few years of course the majority of mappers have forgotten about that.
But what do I care, I don't even play this game any more lol. Peace.
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
But what do I care, I don't even play this game any more lol. Peace.
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.they're fun, i love fun and also transformers
I feel that some newer dnb maps are particularly overmapped. DnB maps have this problem because "muh dnb" so people end up mapping beats that aren't there just because dnb
Other than that, if the map isn't just a patternless mess, I don't really mind it being slightly jumpy
Other than that, if the map isn't just a patternless mess, I don't really mind it being slightly jumpy
same here. love newer maps a lot. although they don't always make sense in many ways. but fun is what matters most to me in a game.Astrofiziks wrote:
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.they're fun, i love fun and also transformers
not so much agreed on the transformers part. the last movie wasn't for me. also not so much of an avengers or any other random marvel movie enthusiast. neither can i watch the latest overhyped kancolle fanservice anime without getting a permaheadache =/
same here. love newer maps a lot. although they don't always make sense in many ways. but fun is what matters most to me in a game.i'll be honest i've never seen a single transformers movie actually
not so much agreed on the transformers part. the last movie wasn't for me. also not so much of an avengers or any other random marvel movie enthusiast. neither can i watch the latest overhyped kancolle fanservice anime without getting a permaheadache =/
but yeah, i like the newer maps, though that may be just because i've only been playing this game for a little over a month. love me some jumps
E m i
ad hominemification strongMashley wrote:
EDIT: And I might add that the people who defend maps with 'but it's fun' are the same people who watch the transformers movies or your latest kawaii schoolgirl anime. They don't care about it being well made, they just want it to be flashy. Ok now peace for real.
Actually, mapping standards have recently been rising.B1rd wrote:
I don't see how any mapping standards have dropped, and I quite enjoy playing the variety of mapping styles.
lol wutMaeglwn wrote:
yea, I really like it when people map things solely for the top .5% of players in the community to play and the rest to watch
we map for aesthetics
ay
ay
Pretty much all (ranked) maps today are mapped to the beat appropriately, and all of them ARE playable. A jump to you may be "dumb" but that's what the mapper feels and obviously if it caters todays standards then you have an unpopular opinion.Maeglwn wrote:
it changed when people realized you can put excessively dumb jumps into maps where they make little to no sense and have people like it because it's innovative and edgy
nowadays now we just have every other map massively overmapped to unplayability and yet people have shifted their standards back so far that its considered, to this day, to be innovative and creative
sad life
Personally I don't like to map easy difficulties because it bores me, I'd rather map something with large spacing because I think it allows more freedom in mapping by allowing more usage of the space given. That doesn't mean that I'm overmapping, and just because a portion of the community can't play it means it's unplayable either, and it definitely doesn't mean I'm not being "innovative and creative" to higher standards
The word overmapping is so funny, because everybody throws it around whenever a map they don't like comes up. Maps people can't comprehend or can't play are also considered "overmapped" because of their difficulties.
Maps like image material and big black were all considered "terrible overmapped maps" by the less skilled player communities, yet if you slow down the BPM it suddenly becomes a work of art
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
No, there is no way a map 'should' be made. 'Overmapping' isn't necessarily bad, there are plenty of good maps that are overmapped.Friendan wrote:
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
I agree with what buny said.
There is nothing wrong with the rhythms of luvoratory, in fact, the majority of the them are on beat anyways. Maps are supposed to follow the most prominent sounds in the song, not just what's on beat. In luvoratory's case, some of those just happened to be off beat. It wasn't even mapped out to the max, if you listen closely plenty more notes could have been added, but HW mainly focused on the strongest ones.Friendan wrote:
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
B1rd wrote:
No, there is no way a map 'should' be made.
that's not even a popular map, though. And majority of maps are not mapped like that; look at the rest of the difficulties in that mapset tooFriendan wrote:
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
HW is also known to have a unique mapping style
I like map. play all map.
Trends over time gradually result in changes that while seemingly minor on their own, build up to a greater overall differences. This is also true for mapping, yah?
Yah???
Yah???
Overmapping = Mapping something that doesn't exist in the song.Friendan wrote:
overmapped = not on beat, too many notes, whatever, like HW's Extra on LUVORATORRRRRY. This is a rhythm game, so I believe maps should stay on beat, not make it as hard as possible to attract all the memers.
Example: Random triples/streams in that generic TV Size song/map because otherwise it would be way too boring just spamming 1/2s and jumps everywhere.
Better example: When you actually try to add something to a song/map by adding a triple/short stream before a chorus/in a bridge/as an outro, whatever that would make sense with the song.
Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".
By the way you can't actually place an object off-beat in the editor, since everything has to be snapped to something. You could maybe consider anything placed on >1/8 snap off-beat stuff though, but it's extremely rare to have a lonely note being actually snapped on 1/12 - 1/16 snap, most of the time it happens to be a BPM change, or just an actual off-beat note.
Overmapped = https://osu.ppy.sh/b/532841 HW's Insane (play without hitsounds to easily see overmapped notes). I like map.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/384926 bad overmapping
GoldenWolf wrote:
Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".
Agree! No Dap for example makes some of my favourite maps and often likes to add triples randomly. Never felt like there was a problem with it when playing.
I think enforced difficulty spreads are one of the very few reasons why maps/map sets might end up with lower quality. Mappers are forced to go back multiple times and remap every song section again after already being bored from mapping their one or two favourite difficulties they've finished with loads of effort.buny wrote:
Personally I don't like to map easy difficulties because it bores me, I'd rather map something with large spacing because I think it allows more freedom in mapping by allowing more usage of the space given. That doesn't mean that I'm overmapping, and just because a portion of the community can't play it means it's unplayable either, and it definitely doesn't mean I'm not being "innovative and creative" to higher standards
I really like to take my time mapping my first diffs because not only at that point I am having still a blast with that particular song but also want to create something unique and fun to play to do this song justice. Moving down in diff to finish the spread it is getting more tedious with every rewind and testplay though...
Oh, I need to save this link! Good read!sukiNathan wrote:
Actually, mapping standards have recently been rising.B1rd wrote:
I don't see how any mapping standards have dropped, and I quite enjoy playing the variety of mapping styles.
Duh, that's why you just outsource all the easy maps to guest diffs.
Never felt it in his maps. Whenever you want to make sure something's random or not, throw it in the editor and play it at 25% or 50% speedInfevo wrote:
Agree! No Dap for example makes some of my favourite maps and often likes to add triples randomly. Never felt like there was a problem with it when playing.GoldenWolf wrote:
Overmapping by itself does not mean bad or good, it just means mapping something that doesn't exist in the song. It can be both good/bad depending on if it's a well-thought-out overmap or just a random "let's slap a triple here cuz its boring".
Also links would be appreciated
and as a "mapper" (I should start taking it seriously)
is so very trueKheldragar wrote:
Duh, that's why you just outsource all the easy maps to guest diffs.