But -GNRiince wrote:
what im saying is, on all maps where HT is relevant and nomod is as well, all cases are unacceptable. in all maps where both DT and nomod clash, it's not all unacceptable.
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it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
put it this way, theres a lot of DT maps where a modless FC is more impressive than DT decent combo/pass. The ones where a DT pass is more impressive than a modless FC are a MINORITY, and these are on the maps that push players limits like run dmc, which is what i meant by difficulty not being linear, things suddenly get magnitudes harder as bpm reaches a certain pointsilmarilen wrote:
it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
However, there's no cases where HT isnt jewing more deserving scores because these maps in their modless form fit the difficulty level of those maps with the more impressive dt clears being better than a modless fc.
is it coming together
if anything it should be more unacceptable in the case of DT, since it's 1,5x faster, not 1,33x like nomod over HT.
it's the same thing, speed increase, you're just incredibly negative biased towards the concept of HT, even though it's not even as much of a downgrade from nomod as nomod is compared to DT.
it's the same thing, speed increase, you're just incredibly negative biased towards the concept of HT, even though it's not even as much of a downgrade from nomod as nomod is compared to DT.
no, a DT getting outscode by a nomod is exactly the same as a nomod getting outscored by a HT.Riince wrote:
put it this way, theres a lot of DT maps where a modless FC is more impressive than DT decent combo/pass. The ones where a DT pass is more impressive than a modless FC are a MINORITY, and these are on the maps that push players limits like run dmc, which is what i meant by difficulty not being linear, things suddenly get magnitudes harder as bpm reaches a certain pointsilmarilen wrote:
it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
However, there's no cases where HT isnt jewing more deserving scores because these maps in their modless form fit the difficulty level of those maps with the more impressive dt clears being better than a modless fc.
is it coming together
the amount of maps where a super impressive DT score gets outscored by a lame nomod <95% acc score is astounding.
it is a massive downgrade because like i said difficulty isnt linear.
you can make a 100 bpm 2x faster that its 200 bpm and it wont be as much of a difficulty change as making a 270 bpm map 220 even if its a smaller change
HT is being used on maps where small changes like this make a bigger difference
on DT, not as often.
you can make a 100 bpm 2x faster that its 200 bpm and it wont be as much of a difficulty change as making a 270 bpm map 220 even if its a smaller change
HT is being used on maps where small changes like this make a bigger difference
on DT, not as often.
and yet there are more 180+ bpm maps getting DT scores which dont show on the scoreboard because of HT than there are 260 bpm maps with nomods not being shown because of HT.
difficulty not being linear favors nomod->DT, and makes the difference between HT and nomod smaller in comparison, you're arguing agaisnt yourself, just saying.
its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.
That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
also are you fucking kidding me, HT is already ONLY 0,3 compared to 1,0!!! while DT is just 1,12 over 1,0
so please, IF A HT SCORE BEAT NOMOD WITH 0,3 OF THE VALUE, how can it be not deserving, while you think that 1,0 nomods not beaten by 1,12 DT's are alright..... LOL
Obviously DT is underrated in score, and cases where DT gets pushed down is FAR more common. How can you even think that HT is the most serious offender here, not nomod.
so please, IF A HT SCORE BEAT NOMOD WITH 0,3 OF THE VALUE, how can it be not deserving, while you think that 1,0 nomods not beaten by 1,12 DT's are alright..... LOL
Obviously DT is underrated in score, and cases where DT gets pushed down is FAR more common. How can you even think that HT is the most serious offender here, not nomod.
you will find that the DT getting outscored with nomod is a much larger percentage than HT outscoring nomod.Riince wrote:
its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.
That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
you just dont realise how many maps have DT scores that are way more impressive than all the nomod scores outscoring them, while it's obvious that if a map has even a single HT score in top50 it's already a problem.
this however does not mean that there are no problems with DT being outscored. trust me when i say there are hundreds of maps where it is a problem.
Because it's all relative, im not saying DT couldnt use a small buff, only that HT is more often a problem in cases where it is applicable.Drezi wrote:
also are you fucking kidding me, HT is already ONLY 0,3 compared to 1,0!!! while DT is just 1,12 over 1,0
so please, IF A HT SCORE BEAT NOMOD WITH 0,3 OF THE VALUE, how can it be not deserving, while you think that 1,0 nomods not beaten by 1,12 DT's are alright..... LOL
Obviously DT is underrated in score, and cases where DT gets pushed down is FAR more common. How can you even think that HT is the most serious offender here, not nomod.
you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.silmarilen wrote:
you will find that the DT getting outscored with nomod is a much larger percentage than HT outscoring nomod.Riince wrote:
its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.
That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard
edit: for every hundred maps where it is a problem, there are over a thousand where it is not. By all means, buff DT, it doesnt create any issues really, im talking about HT.
if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.Riince wrote:
you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.
you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard
He's arguing against his very own mod and skillset - speed at this point, simply out of the desire to prove us wrong and be able to hold on to his point against HT.
This is how you make a speed player say that NOMODS beating all the DT scores on scoreboards is alright. Pretty amusing.
This is how you make a speed player say that NOMODS beating all the DT scores on scoreboards is alright. Pretty amusing.
realize there are tens of thousands of ranked beatmaps, hundreds is NOT that many.silmarilen wrote:
if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.Riince wrote:
you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.
you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard
you're getting ahead of yourself again, i said where a DT PASS SLASH DECENT COMBO is more impressive than an fc, sure i can DT that stupid ronald mcdonald insanity map and pass it, well i dont think thats near as impressive as actually FCing it normally, i could say the same for just about every map in the easy normal hard light insane range which make up most ranked maps, and the same can be said even for a portion of insanes.Drezi wrote:
He's arguing against his very own mod and skillset - speed at this point, simply out of the desire to prove us wrong and be able to hold on to his point against HT.
This is how you make a speed player say that NOMODS beating all the DT scores on scoreboards is alright. Pretty amusing.
I'm not saying that DT FCs or near FCs on hard maps should ever be beaten by somewhat higher accuracy normal speed plays.
when did this stop being about HT
if hundreds is already not many, how many is 5?Riince wrote:
realize there are tens of thousands of ranked beatmaps, hundreds is NOT that many.silmarilen wrote:
if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.
5 out of 5 is a lot more than hundreds out of tens of thousands.silmarilen wrote:
if hundreds is already not many, how many is 5?
re-la-tive
omg your difficulty is not linear argument is wrong on so many levels
HT -> nomod -> DT
it's not linear thus the difficulty on the same map will increase exponentially and thus the difference will be bigger the higher you go, thus you can see that nomod->DT is the bigger difference, not HT->nomod on the same map. If HT is the same speed as nomod of an other map, than it's the same relative point, except DT is still a bigger increase in speed.... your point is 100% nonsense.
HT -> nomod -> DT
it's not linear thus the difficulty on the same map will increase exponentially and thus the difference will be bigger the higher you go, thus you can see that nomod->DT is the bigger difference, not HT->nomod on the same map. If HT is the same speed as nomod of an other map, than it's the same relative point, except DT is still a bigger increase in speed.... your point is 100% nonsense.
you mean 5 out of tens of thousands
HT does not magically get a different mappool than DT
on every. single. map. out there, DTing half the combo of the map is more impressive than nomod fc, yet on not. a. single. map that will outscore the nomod.
HT does not magically get a different mappool than DT
on every. single. map. out there, DTing half the combo of the map is more impressive than nomod fc, yet on not. a. single. map that will outscore the nomod.
Riince you simply pick individual examples that seem to justify your points and you fail to see the system and the concept as a whole.
it didnt, we are trying to show you why it's stupid to completely abolish HT as a ranked mod because nomod vs DT has exactly the same problem.Riince wrote:
when did this stop being about HT
im talking about the very best players, their skill level is the only applicable variable when talking about plays that end up on scoreboards. Whether a map goes from 130 to 195 bpm with DT, or whether it is already that modless, or whatever doesn't really matter, scoreboards on maps like that are usually going to saturate.Drezi wrote:
omg your difficulty is not linear argument is wrong on so many levels
HT -> nomod -> DT
it's not linear thus the difficulty on the same map will increase exponentially and thus the difference will be bigger the higher you go, thus you can see that nomod->DT is the bigger difference, not HT->nomod on the same map. If HT is the same speed as nomod of an other map, than it's the same relative point, except DT is still a bigger increase in speed.... your point is 100% nonsense.
They don't matter for this argument. But on maps where the limits of the best players, i.e the kinds of players that SHOULD be on a scoreboard for a map like that, are tested, it's unreasonable to waste spots for HT on players who aren't as good at the game and aren't playing at that limit.
Gosh.
This scenario is less common when it comes to DT, on relative terms. It happens, its an issue, but HT has NO excuse for being in its current state which is what ive been trying to get across
it is SO MANY TIMES MORE COMMON THAT A DT SCORE THAT IS MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN THE NOMOD SCORE GETS PUSHED OUT OF TOP50
when are you going to see this
when are you going to see this
I see this, 5 is a smaller number that hundreds, but lets be relativesilmarilen wrote:
it is SO MANY TIMES MORE COMMON THAT A DT SCORE THAT IS MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN THE NOMOD SCORE GETS PUSHED OUT OF TOP50
when are you going to see this
undefined number of maps, lets say at least 10000 even though its definitely more, maps where DT and Nomod are competing.
Even several hundred maps where its an issue isnt grounds to do something drastic, maybe buff DT a bit
That's a very small percentage.
5 maps where HT and Nomod are competing, and.. wait.. all 5 [100%] are a problem and in each case comparable to the problem DT has? Unrank the mod!
it's not even possible for there to be more maps where DT is a problem while being relative, all it can do is be equal, and thats only if every single map is more impressive with a DT C rank than a normal speed S and.. well, that's just not the case and you know it. If it was, the problem would require an equally drastic fix, like buffing DT to 4x score or something.
you seem to fail at basic concepts of logic, really.
according to you:
HT x1,33 = nomod -> HT pushes out nomod -> "UNACCEPTABLE IN 100% cases".
nomod x1,5 = DT -> nomod pushes out DT -> "yeah sure, it's only a few cases where it's bad".
1,5>1,33
according to you:
HT x1,33 = nomod -> HT pushes out nomod -> "UNACCEPTABLE IN 100% cases".
nomod x1,5 = DT -> nomod pushes out DT -> "yeah sure, it's only a few cases where it's bad".
1,5>1,33
That comes back to difficulty not being linear. a very small percentage of DTable maps go into the level of difficulty that maps being HT'd are in, despite the larger speed change. Those maps can be a problem, but when compared to all maps being DT'd it's relatively less common, therefore requres a less drastic change than what should happen to HT
Correct. Because getting a half combo 95% on Baby Sweet Berry Love (TV Size) [Vicho's Snoozefest] is not deserving of being above a modless SS. You can say this about more maps than where its not the case, even if there are a LOT of maps where its not the case, relatively speaking, its less.Drezi wrote:
according to you:
HT x1,33 = nomod -> HT pushes out nomod -> "UNACCEPTABLE IN 100% cases".
nomod x1,5 = DT -> nomod pushes out DT -> "yeah sure, it's only a few cases where it's bad".
Drezi wrote:
omg your difficulty is not linear argument is wrong on so many levels
HT -> nomod -> DT
it's not linear thus the difficulty on the same map will increase exponentially and thus the difference will be bigger the higher you go, thus you can see that nomod->DT is the bigger difference, not HT->nomod on the same map. If HT is the same speed as nomod of an other map, than it's the same relative point, except DT is still a bigger increase in speed.... your point is 100% nonsense.
there are 2 groups, one of 5 people and one of 5000 people.
in the group of 5, all 5 people are starving, and in the group of 5000 there are 70 starving.
you're telling us to ignore the group of 5000 and help the group of 5
in the group of 5, all 5 people are starving, and in the group of 5000 there are 70 starving.
you're telling us to ignore the group of 5000 and help the group of 5
just like how a 200 combo on scarlet freedom black material [holy shit it's gay pony] is not supposed to go over a HT fc.Riince wrote:
Correct. Because getting a half combo 95% on Baby Sweet Berry Love (TV Size) [Vicho's Snoozefest] is not deserving of being above a modless SS. You can say this about more maps than where its not the case, even if there are a LOT of maps where its not the case, relatively speaking, its less.
and if you say otherwise you're basically telling us your point is bad.
No, that analogy doesn't work because there's no quick easy fix to it like people starving [give them food], if anything DT is a more sensitive issue since it has much more participation.
It's more like, 70 people who need brain surgery, and 5 people who need an apple. Well, logistically speaking, giving those 5 people an apple won't have any affect on the 70 people negative or positive, theres no opportunity cost involved beyond a few lines of code [probably, if its a lot harder than i think to just make HT not a ranked mod, I guess it IS taking away from a bigger issue]
It's more like, 70 people who need brain surgery, and 5 people who need an apple. Well, logistically speaking, giving those 5 people an apple won't have any affect on the 70 people negative or positive, theres no opportunity cost involved beyond a few lines of code [probably, if its a lot harder than i think to just make HT not a ranked mod, I guess it IS taking away from a bigger issue]
And now were right back to where i started, Like I said, maps like this should have scoreboards where the best people are competing, people who cant compete shouldnt be taking spots away from people who can, plain and simple. Unless were talking about ranking Tenshi or something, the best players are not going to be competing in HT scores.silmarilen wrote:
just like how a 200 combo on scarlet freedom black material [holy shit it's gay pony] is not supposed to go over a HT fc.
and if you say otherwise you're basically telling us your point is bad.
and by saying that you agreed that as soon as a map has more than 1 DT score they should be above the nomod scores by default.
and thus agreed that the problem also exists on DT.
and thus agreed that the problem also exists on DT.
Of course im not, because there's way, way more maps where a low acc/decent combo DT score is not as impressive as a high acc normal speed FC..
Because these maps aren't at that top level limit that all maps being HT'd are, whether DT is applied or not.
Because these maps aren't at that top level limit that all maps being HT'd are, whether DT is applied or not.
HT->nomod is 1,33 speed increase.
DT is 1,5 speed increase.
If no HT score can be better than a nomod score, it would mean no nomod score can be better than a DT score (ESPECIALLY since diff isn't linear), so unrank nomod too.
DT is 1,5 speed increase.
If no HT score can be better than a nomod score, it would mean no nomod score can be better than a DT score (ESPECIALLY since diff isn't linear), so unrank nomod too.
there isnt a single map like that.
unless you can give me an example of a map where comboing 90% of the map with DT is less impressive than nomod fc.
unless you can give me an example of a map where comboing 90% of the map with DT is less impressive than nomod fc.
No HT score where the map is so hard that only the best players are going to set decent scores on it is going to be worth more than a nomod score, i truly believe this, playing at a far level lower [again, the gap between 260 bpm and 195 bpm is incredible] even if its at high consistency isn't more impressiveDrezi wrote:
HT->nomod is 1,33 speed increase.
DT is 1,5 speed increase.
If no HT score can be better than a nomod score, it would mean no nomod score can be better than a DT score (ESPECIALLY since diff isn't linear), so unrank nomod too.
every easy normal hard out there, and quite a few insanes have it where a high acc normal speed fc beats some 95% half-combo play in impressiveness.silmarilen wrote:
there isnt a single map like that
unless you can give me an example of a map where comboing 90% of the map with DT is less impressive than nomod fc.Okay, buff DT slightly to fix a problem that affects the minority of maps where this is happening regularly, fair enough, im all for it. The game will be better for it. DT is the hardest mod after all
if you cant even beat a score worth 0.3x the nomod score then you suck and arent competing at the top anyway.
and no, just because you dont have the patience to wait for a hitcircle to close doesnt mean the map is harder on nomod.
and no, just because you dont have the patience to wait for a hitcircle to close doesnt mean the map is harder on nomod.
Drezi wrote:
Riince you simply pick individual examples that seem to justify your points and you fail to see the system and the concept as a whole.
Drezi wrote:
you seem to fail at basic concepts of logic, really.
Imagine Image Material being a 195bpm map, and that all HT scores on said map are with nomod, and all nomod plays on said map are DT scores.
Would you still have a problem with it?
Would you still have a problem with it?
whether the map is harder or not is irrelevant in that example, the score is just more impressive so should be worth more. Neither the DT or the modless on such maps are going anywhere near the level of play on maps where HT is an issue, so even drawing the comparison is sillysilmarilen wrote:
if you cant even beat a score worth 0.3x the nomod score then you suck and arent competing at the top anyway.
and no, just because you dont have the patience to wait for a hitcircle to close doesnt mean the map is harder on nomod.
The map would then become a part of the minority of maps where DT being underweighted is a problem, and become another reason to buff DT's worth a bit.CXu wrote:
Imagine Image Material being a 195bpm map, and that all HT scores on said map are with nomod, and all nomod plays on said map are DT scores.
Would you still have a problem with it?
Especially since people FCing 292 bpm streams is so much more impressive than 195 that I don't even think a modless SS should come near a 15 miss C.