Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Gameplay & Rankings

Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

posted
Total Posts
2,750
show more
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
@Tess my only issue with NF is that if it was 1.0x there would be no reason NOT to use it, assuming the pp penalty would also be gone.

@Drezi koigokoro going from 140 to 210 bpm is.. not really that much, i mean one is harder but despite the increase being larger than the decrease between 260 and 195, the difficulty change is much more drastic for the latter. Human playing ability, etc. etc. difficulty is far from linear. take image material, 1.33x speed you say? in what world is 195 bpm streams even 0.45x as difficult as 260 bpm streams? It's not even close. Not even in the same dimension.

the same holds true for any map people are getting on the scoreboard with HT for, these maps push the limit of what people can do which is why its happening in the first place, these things that are pushing people (typically BPM and how its being applied) vanish entirely when HT is applied.

Don't make HT ranked anymore. It's tragic to see impressive modless plays on fantastically hard maps being pushed down by people who play a different map of rather typical 'extra' difficulty
Artorias_DELETED
Artorias_DELETED

Riince wrote:

Don't make HT ranked anymore. It's tragic to see impressive modless plays on fantastically hard maps being pushed down by people who play a different map of rather typical 'extra' difficulty
The saddest case of this is Image Material. Where x1000 combos are buried under the HT FCs which is completely stupid and baffling to me.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Gigo wrote:

I still don't see the point of saving them (even if it's just locally) but whatever.
Even if there was a toggle that enables/disables auto-saving relax/autopilot replays locally that'd be neat. Also, your earlier "concerns" are extremely silly because both RL and AP make osu!standard scoring similar to mania scoring, considering that you get no combo bonus at all. Those scores wouldn't even beat NF scores, let alone anything else, and thus couldn't possibly take up server space.

Riince wrote:

@Tess my only issue with NF is that if it was 1.0x there would be no reason NOT to use it, assuming the pp penalty would also be gone.
That's exactly what I thought. If we were to do that then you could just as well remove HP altogether, and I don't think that should happen, because failing is an important part of every game. What's the pp penalty? Maybe give NF a similar penalty. 0.9x sounds about right to me, since a 700x combo NF score would still beat a 200 combo nomod score, but not a 700 combo nomod score of similar accuracy.

Riince wrote:

Don't make HT ranked anymore. It's tragic to see impressive modless plays on fantastically hard maps being pushed down by people who play a different map of rather typical 'extra' difficulty
This.

Drezi wrote:

No, it's only a matter of perspective. "Going from HT Eighto to nomod is a drastic difficulty increase. Nomod Koigokoro is just practice."
Except mods are optional, and you can't judge the standard based on optional alterations. It has nothing to do with perspective, it has to do with practicality, and considering the nature of HT, it would be very impractical on a large scale to keep it as a ranked mod.

Edited my post to change what I said about NF.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
im pretty sure NF is already at 0.9x pp
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
We're talking about score weightings, not pp.

Also, does anyone disagree with my suggestions above (other than NF and HT which have already been mentioned)?
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
So it's ok for non-DT rungran d.m.c plays to push down DT plays, but it's not ok for HT image material scores to push down nomod scores?

Your logic is very one-sided here, it's completely non-relevant what the original BPM of a song is, a map like Image material could have been mapped on a 195 BPM song originally, in which case those plays wouldn't be considered worthless, just because that's the original then? If Big Black was originally 240 BPM (480 on paper) would HT scores (same as current nomod, 180 bpm) be considered lame?... It's all in your head. PP doesn't care what's the original either, it considers each alteration of the map on it's own as an individual map, are you suggesting that's wrong?

And don't get me wrong, I agree that faster plays are more impressive, especially at the high end spectrum, and they shouldn't be beaten by lower speed versions (regardless if it's DT vs nomod, or nomod vs HT). That's why scores should be judged objectively (and they are pp wise), for what they are, in both cases.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Really comparing "good fast bpm players" againist "good low bpm players" considering the faster one is better, I find that a kind of lie. I cant stream 130-150 bpm at all and I use DT to make these insanes easier for me ... and my acc raises even with the higher OD.

also I find HT as a generous mod that is injustly bad rated because of some kind of rages againist it. Image material is not the exception, but is the most known map which HT is over used because obvius reassons of bpm and mapping. HT can make extraordinary maps into ordinary maps, and even pp is in the favour of all these players that can S this with HT instead doing 1100 combo no mod which ... may not be just, but happens. Still it's more useful being a good 195 bpm player than a regular or bad 260 bpm player because more maps are 195 bpm and chances to optain pp from any is a thing you should consider.

Also for respect and fame it's better for you doing a #50 no mod with very imcomplete rank than doing 99% HT S rank. But in terms of efficiency HT player should be rewarded higher, but not being considered as a better player than any that did close to the same score with no mod.
Snepif
1,127 posts
Joined July 2010
Snepif
I find this discussion pretty useless though because every map is different. Every case is different. What pp does is... avaraging those cases. "Overall, even though this and that map are exceptions, DT works this way, etc."
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Drezi wrote:

So it's ok for non-DT rungran d.m.c plays to push down DT plays, but it's not ok for HT image material scores to push down nomod scores?

Your logic is very one-sided here, it's completely non-relevant what the original BPM of a song is, a map like Image material could have been mapped on a 195 BPM song originally, in which case those plays wouldn't be considered worthless, just because that's the original then? If Big Black was originally 240 BPM (480 on paper) would HT scores (same as current nomod, 180 bpm) be considered lame?... It's all in your head. PP doesn't care what's the original either, it considers each alteration of the map on it's own as an individual map, are you suggesting that's wrong?

And don't get me wrong, I agree that faster plays are more impressive, especially at the high end spectrum, and they shouldn't be beaten by lower speed versions (regardless if it's DT vs nomod, or nomod vs HT). That's why scores should be judged objectively (and they are pp wise), for what they are, in both cases.
I don't think you read my post very thoroughly. I also don't think anyone but Riince and Snepif have said something actually meaningful to the discussion so far.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
are you fucking kidding me?
he gave a direct argument against your idea and you just blow it off as if it's irrelevant to the discussion?

that sure is an easy way to pretend to win a discussion
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
It's irrelevant because I said multiple times in my post that DT would always be worth more than any other combination of mods of the same amount. DT-only outclasses all mods by far in my example, and also combined with other mods it will always give a higher bonus. So the first line he says, which is the premise on which he bases his argument, is false. Because nowhere did I even remotely imply that non-DT plays should outclass DT plays. HRFL would be worth 0.01x more than DT only, so really.

I don't see what this "direct argument" is. I never said it was okay for non DT plays to push DT down. I just don't think HT should be ranked because there's no further value to that mod other than practice and a cheap way to get into hard maps' top 50s.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Tess wrote:

DT would always be worth more than any other combination of mods of the same amount. DT-only outclasses all mods by far in my example, and also combined with other mods it will always give a higher bonus. So the first line he says, which is the premise on which he bases his argument, is false. Because nowhere did I even remotely imply that non-DT plays should outclass DT plays.
But this is just wrong, it doesn't matter at all if DT is 1.12 or 1.13, every good DT play will still be pushed down by nomod scores with better comboes and you don't seem to have a problem with that, yet you want to make HT's multiplier abysmal (or unranked) to stop the same thing from happening there.

According to PP (which we all agree is the best measurement of difficulty right now), a DT FC is worth around 3x as much as a nomod FC on average. As long as the score multiplier is not close to that, nomod plays that shouldn't will still outclass DT plays. (And I haven't even taken into consideration the higher value of combo in score.)

If you feel that combo is so insignificant that under no circumstances should a HT Image Material play push down a nomod play and thus HT deserves 0.12 or less, than you'd need to make DT's multplier crazy high to stop good combo nomod scores from pushing down small combo DT passes aswell, because it's the same principle. Despite all this you feel a 1.13 DT is enough, but HT deserves close to 0. You're not consistent with your own judgement.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
difficulty
is
not
linear
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
and that addresses or refutes which point exactly?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
you cant use extremely rare examples like run DMC, these situations are very unusual, and make up less than 1% of the maps people are DTing

Whereas in the case of half-time, it's 100% always a less deserving score forcing down a more deserving score when it comes to scoreboards.
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
there are more maps where DT scores get pushed out of top50 by nonDT, than where nomod scores get pushed out by HT
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

there are more maps where DT scores get pushed out of top50 by nonDT, than where nomod scores get pushed out by HT
Like i said it's relative, more in sheer number but less when you compare maps to eachother. its not even a close comparison the number of maps where dt scores win out over non-dt scores

you cant change a mod based on a minority like that, HT can be changed because its not just the majority, its all applicable cases.

And by change i dont just mean a small one, maybe DT could use a small buff, but HT needs to be straight up shafted.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
HT is even more a minority than DT, there are what? 5 maps? where HT significantly pushes nomod out of top50.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
what im saying is, on all maps where HT is relevant and nomod is as well, all cases are unacceptable. in all maps where both DT and nomod clash, it's not all unacceptable.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Riince wrote:

what im saying is, on all maps where HT is relevant and nomod is as well, all cases are unacceptable. in all maps where both DT and nomod clash, it's not all unacceptable.
But -GN :( https://osu.ppy.sh/b/27638?m=0
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
put it this way, theres a lot of DT maps where a modless FC is more impressive than DT decent combo/pass. The ones where a DT pass is more impressive than a modless FC are a MINORITY, and these are on the maps that push players limits like run dmc, which is what i meant by difficulty not being linear, things suddenly get magnitudes harder as bpm reaches a certain point

However, there's no cases where HT isnt jewing more deserving scores because these maps in their modless form fit the difficulty level of those maps with the more impressive dt clears being better than a modless fc.

is it coming together
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
if anything it should be more unacceptable in the case of DT, since it's 1,5x faster, not 1,33x like nomod over HT.

it's the same thing, speed increase, you're just incredibly negative biased towards the concept of HT, even though it's not even as much of a downgrade from nomod as nomod is compared to DT.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Riince wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

it's exactly the same thing except that the mods are reversed, your point doesnt make sense.
put it this way, theres a lot of DT maps where a modless FC is more impressive than DT decent combo/pass. The ones where a DT pass is more impressive than a modless FC are a MINORITY, and these are on the maps that push players limits like run dmc, which is what i meant by difficulty not being linear, things suddenly get magnitudes harder as bpm reaches a certain point

However, there's no cases where HT isnt jewing more deserving scores because these maps in their modless form fit the difficulty level of those maps with the more impressive dt clears being better than a modless fc.

is it coming together
no, a DT getting outscode by a nomod is exactly the same as a nomod getting outscored by a HT.
the amount of maps where a super impressive DT score gets outscored by a lame nomod <95% acc score is astounding.
Last edited by silmarilen , edited 1 time in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
it is a massive downgrade because like i said difficulty isnt linear.

you can make a 100 bpm 2x faster that its 200 bpm and it wont be as much of a difficulty change as making a 270 bpm map 220 even if its a smaller change

HT is being used on maps where small changes like this make a bigger difference

on DT, not as often.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
and yet there are more 180+ bpm maps getting DT scores which dont show on the scoreboard because of HT than there are 260 bpm maps with nomods not being shown because of HT.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
difficulty not being linear favors nomod->DT, and makes the difference between HT and nomod smaller in comparison, you're arguing agaisnt yourself, just saying.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.

That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
also are you fucking kidding me, HT is already ONLY 0,3 compared to 1,0!!! while DT is just 1,12 over 1,0

so please, IF A HT SCORE BEAT NOMOD WITH 0,3 OF THE VALUE, how can it be not deserving, while you think that 1,0 nomods not beaten by 1,12 DT's are alright..... LOL

Obviously DT is underrated in score, and cases where DT gets pushed down is FAR more common. How can you even think that HT is the most serious offender here, not nomod.
Last edited by Drezi , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Riince wrote:

its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.

That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
you will find that the DT getting outscored with nomod is a much larger percentage than HT outscoring nomod.
you just dont realise how many maps have DT scores that are way more impressive than all the nomod scores outscoring them, while it's obvious that if a map has even a single HT score in top50 it's already a problem.

this however does not mean that there are no problems with DT being outscored. trust me when i say there are hundreds of maps where it is a problem.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

also are you fucking kidding me, HT is already ONLY 0,3 compared to 1,0!!! while DT is just 1,12 over 1,0

so please, IF A HT SCORE BEAT NOMOD WITH 0,3 OF THE VALUE, how can it be not deserving, while you think that 1,0 nomods not beaten by 1,12 DT's are alright..... LOL

Obviously DT is underrated in score, and cases where DT gets pushed down is FAR more common. How can you even think that HT is the most serious offender here, not nomod.
Because it's all relative, im not saying DT couldnt use a small buff, only that HT is more often a problem in cases where it is applicable.

silmarilen wrote:

Riince wrote:

its relative as ive already said. compare all maps that have modless and dt competing and a much smaller percentage of it is problematic than maps where HT and modless are competing.

That massive majority in the second case is grounds for a change.
you will find that the DT getting outscored with nomod is a much larger percentage than HT outscoring nomod.
you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.

you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard

edit: for every hundred maps where it is a problem, there are over a thousand where it is not. By all means, buff DT, it doesnt create any issues really, im talking about HT.
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Riince wrote:

you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.

you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard
if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
He's arguing against his very own mod and skillset - speed at this point, simply out of the desire to prove us wrong and be able to hold on to his point against HT.

This is how you make a speed player say that NOMODS beating all the DT scores on scoreboards is alright. Pretty amusing.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

Riince wrote:

you'll find much less maps where a dt pass/decent combo is More Impressive than a normal speed FC WHEN COMPARED to the number of maps where the opposite is true, when looking at all ranked maps.

you will find no maps where a ht score is more deserving because of non-linear difficulty than playing it at normal speed yet still occupies a spot in the scoreboard
if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.
realize there are tens of thousands of ranked beatmaps, hundreds is NOT that many.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

He's arguing against his very own mod and skillset - speed at this point, simply out of the desire to prove us wrong and be able to hold on to his point against HT.

This is how you make a speed player say that NOMODS beating all the DT scores on scoreboards is alright. Pretty amusing.
you're getting ahead of yourself again, i said where a DT PASS SLASH DECENT COMBO is more impressive than an fc, sure i can DT that stupid ronald mcdonald insanity map and pass it, well i dont think thats near as impressive as actually FCing it normally, i could say the same for just about every map in the easy normal hard light insane range which make up most ranked maps, and the same can be said even for a portion of insanes.

I'm not saying that DT FCs or near FCs on hard maps should ever be beaten by somewhat higher accuracy normal speed plays.

when did this stop being about HT
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Riince wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

if you think that i have no reason to argue with you because that's just plain retarded.
realize there are tens of thousands of ranked beatmaps, hundreds is NOT that many.
if hundreds is already not many, how many is 5?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

if hundreds is already not many, how many is 5?
5 out of 5 is a lot more than hundreds out of tens of thousands.
re-la-tive
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 1 time in total.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
omg your difficulty is not linear argument is wrong on so many levels

HT -> nomod -> DT

it's not linear thus the difficulty on the same map will increase exponentially and thus the difference will be bigger the higher you go, thus you can see that nomod->DT is the bigger difference, not HT->nomod on the same map. If HT is the same speed as nomod of an other map, than it's the same relative point, except DT is still a bigger increase in speed.... your point is 100% nonsense.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
you mean 5 out of tens of thousands
HT does not magically get a different mappool than DT
on every. single. map. out there, DTing half the combo of the map is more impressive than nomod fc, yet on not. a. single. map that will outscore the nomod.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Riince you simply pick individual examples that seem to justify your points and you fail to see the system and the concept as a whole.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1842 / 2,750