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Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
While we're at it, here's a thing that buggs me quite much.

■ I really love these Streams 04:05:781 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - and the idea behind them, but I really hate the fact that these sharp turns sometimes happen on normal beats (and not on the very strong ones that'd indicate such a change) or vocals. This goes for:

04:09:075 (7) -
04:13:238 (7) -
04:17:313 (7) -
04:18:786 (7) -
04:24:423 (8) -
04:45:318 (9) -
04:46:706 (9) -
04:48:180 (10) -

It'd feel more natural if you'd only use these for the very strong beat in the song (best example is the first stream Ive posted).

■ I would also shape 04:22:081 (13,14,15,16) - more curvy to the right. There's no real reason to have the start of the next combo on the right side if it's shaped like that.

Edit: oh, also. These things 01:28:584 (6,7,8) - feel extremely awkward. You're most likely expecting a repeat Slider like the tons of the times you've had that one before, but there's none and you just suddenly have to play the next repeat Slider that starts on a red tick (opposed to the all-white-tick combo before that)
Last edited by Yauxo , edited 1 time in total.
Pappy
1,020 posts
Joined August 2013
Pappy

MillhioreF wrote:

05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - Not necessarily a problem, but can anyone even FC this? 1.20x note spacing on 2 x 2.8 slider velocity.

Just FCed this part after clicking "test" million times in editor. /o/
-Soba-
374 posts
Joined January 2011
-Soba-

Pappy wrote:

MillhioreF wrote:

05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - Not necessarily a problem, but can anyone even FC this? 1.20x note spacing on 2 x 2.8 slider velocity.

Just FCed this part after clicking "test" million times in editor. /o/
I can attest to their fcability!
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
Yeah, that was a bad question. I should have asked if anyone can FC them _reliably_.
-Soba-
374 posts
Joined January 2011
-Soba-

MillhioreF wrote:

Yeah, that was a bad question. I should have asked if anyone can FC them _reliably_.
I fc the first of the two at the end reliably, but for some reason I always miss on the second one ):
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I don't recall something having to be FCable reliably to be good or enjoyable
If it's possible to humanly FC it, I don't really see the issue

Also yeah sil you really picked the worst possible example here
I think this would be a better example when it comes to recently ranked hard maps
Or, hell, even this would count (the fact that it's a HW map doesn't really make the point any less valid, considering that we're talking about rankable difficulty here)
But I think that Elemental Creation is probably the #1 example of recently ranked extremely hard maps. Why do all of those maps get to pass, but not this one? Yeah, it could see some improvements here and there, but that doesn't mean that you should recommend it to stay in the graveyard. That's really rude, and using a map's difficulty as a reason for it to stay graved is just a weak argument.

When it comes to quality, I'd say that it's quite high, and I've seen other users agree, but others would also say it's not. This is fine, and it happens on every map. There is no map that everybody loves, and that's fine. So why do I see so many people putting their personal opinion over pointing out objective issues within the map?

I really can't understand why despite all the previous map dramas people still can't get over themselves and their preferences
unko
521 posts
Joined March 2014
unko
i really don't get what qualifies as rankable and what doesn't anymore. one shitty low quality map gets ranked, the next doesn't. it's an all or none situation, so make it be that way.
Scottish Goose
8 posts
Joined August 2014
Scottish Goose

nookls wrote:

i really don't get what qualifies as rankable and what doesn't anymore. one shitty low quality map gets ranked, the next doesn't. it's an all or none situation, so make it be that way.
I agree with this.
Then there's some good un-ranked maps that don't get ranked. Like gg.
-Soba-
374 posts
Joined January 2011
-Soba-

nookls wrote:

i really don't get what qualifies as rankable and what doesn't anymore. one shitty low quality map gets ranked, the next doesn't. it's an all or none situation, so make it be that way.
I just don't see what makes this a "shitty low quality map". The map is easy to read and feels, at least to me, like it matches the song. The only gripe I can see is that it's moderately difficult to play. And I don't see why difficulty of playing should factor into ranking a map. I'm not a mapper so I know my opinion might not hold much weight at all, but as a player I'm really sad to see this map go ): it seemed like a breath of fresh air and I really enjoyed it
Mismagius
Beatmap Nominator
9,341 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Soap755 wrote:

nookls wrote:

i really don't get what qualifies as rankable and what doesn't anymore. one shitty low quality map gets ranked, the next doesn't. it's an all or none situation, so make it be that way.
I agree with this.
Then there's some good un-ranked maps that don't get ranked. Like gg.
OH NO people have different opinions!

What if the maps that you consider good, are actually 1/2 spam with no spacing which people worship as "the best maps" such as some of caren's or silynn's maps, that barely follow anything in the ranking criteria and have zero technical qualify?
People should know that maps that get ranked are the ones who have rankable quality. If you don't like it, someone else does. That's why it got ranked in the first place. People should really acknowledge that other people have different opinions.

"This map is an overmapped piece of shit, it's not an opinion, it's a fact! just listen to the music guys, you're wrong and i'm right!!!!!"
Onodera Marika
32 posts
Joined December 2013
Onodera Marika
It is sad to see this got unranked.

For those who think the hitsound is inaudible. Please turn of music volume and leave effect volume on for a while and listen to the nicely made custom hitsound that is so rythmic.

For those who think the map doesn't fit the song or overmapped. Please listen carefully to the music where the note is placed. There's always something to be there. Don't judge overmapping on your own opinion about what fit and what is not. It is too subjective. Every mapper has his own pattern to follow. Notes doesn't necessarily need to follow certain vocal patterns, or drum patterns or single instrumental pattern. Listen to maps like Miss You by Hanzer.

For those who think the map is too hard to play, not fcable. Please please note that there's no map that suit everyone's skill level and play style. There's no reason to believe a map is overmapped just because u cannot play it. This is where the star difficulty system come into play. Though it is not that accurate to judge the difficulty level, it is at least objective and give u a sense. Try to fc freedom dive or big black before u post "this is just mapping for difficulty". And don't forget how "shitty" maps like big black got SSed by rrtyui this year.

For mapping style, personally I cannot accept HW's mapping style due to my bad reading ability. But it is OK as long as a few people enjoys this map. I witnesses how JappyBabes fc that last crazy part and how mercurius got 1200combo on this map, there are some player that this map is aiming for. As players' skill improves, the mapping style is changing all the time. This is 2014 and may as well be a 2015 map. I saw shitty maps that has unreasonably long and boring and ugly slider that are ranked and are considered "qualified" by the QATs or that has very awkward blanks between notes that are considered "not overmapped". It is just so sad that this is disqualified just because one QAT said that this lacks quality and because of streams and sounds and another unrelated thread.

Good job HW and I hope u keep working on this and get it re-ranked.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
How do you even determine "quality" to the point that a map can be ranked or not?

- Patterns that make sense? We see less and less of those in Insane/Extra difficulties nowadays and that's not stopping anyone.
- Readability? That's subjective, I can read stuff most people would call totally unreadable.
- Playability? That's subjective too, we saw some very good plays on this map even during the short time it was ranked, so obviously some people can play it.
- Following the music? Maybe, but I'd argue there are a lot of other ranked maps that completely make up their own beats. At least this one follows the constant background 1/4.

What it boils down to in the end, since any criteria (beyond ranking criteria themselves) is subjective, is whether or not the map is the best it can be. I don't think this one is yet, but all the same what right does anyone have to say "this mapping style is unrankable"?
unko
521 posts
Joined March 2014
unko

MillhioreF wrote:

How do you even determine "quality" to the point that a map can be ranked or not?

- Patterns that make sense? We see less and less of those in Insane/Extra difficulties nowadays and that's not stopping anyone.
- Readability? That's subjective, I can read stuff most people would call totally unreadable.
- Playability? That's subjective too, we saw some very good plays on this map even during the short time it was ranked, so obviously some people can play it.
- Following the music? Maybe, but I'd argue there are a lot of other ranked maps that completely make up their own beats. At least this one follows the constant background 1/4.

What it boils down to in the end, since any criteria (beyond ranking criteria themselves) is subjective, is whether or not the map is the best it can be. I don't think this one is yet, but all the same what right does anyone have to say "this mapping style is unrankable"?
this is what i mean, if everything is subjective then why can't this be ranked while maps like dadadadada can and are?
Xytox
osu! Alumni
367 posts
Joined December 2012
Xytox
Why do people even map this hard to begin with, especially on low bpm songs like this one? I mean, the harder it is, the more annoying it becomes, and the bigger potential it has to spawn a drama like this one.

It's a frustrating map to play. The slidervelocity and the spacing is beyond insane. It's just not a fun map to play in terms of trying to FC it. So many aspects that could be made better, that's all there is to it.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
RIP HW. One of the only mappers that bring diversity. Even though i'm not really fan of his/her maps.
By the way, guys, could you please stop this unnecessary drama ? Because the angry GM will lock this thread, and nobody will be happy.

As i always say, before complaining about a map, try to pass it first.
Last edited by Cherry Blossom , edited 1 time in total.
Darksonic
2,805 posts
Joined November 2010
Darksonic
Guys, if you're not going to give some suggestions or advices about how to improve the map to get it ranked as soon as possible, try to avoid commenting for now, less spam and more useful comments please, I see there are many ppl that gives their opinions and stuff and that's great but, as most of them aren't positive ones, then let's try to avoid them so we'll be sure there won't be any drama here. And this means, it's ok if you think this: "Omg what a shitty map, unplayable, impossible, please make maps to be able to play by everyone, shitty mapping, 2015 is lost" etc etc etc, these are your opinions and it's fine, but DON'T say it here where we know many ppl won't think like you, or else I will have to close this until some BATs or QATs come to give their suggestions.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,425 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Because the angry GM will lock this thread, and nobody will be happy.
Let me be the boo-man doing this.

This thread stays locked until the mapper decides to make changes and when I am done with sorting out the rant you guys were posting. Hollow Wings, please contact me or any other QAT/GMT to unlock.

Edit: Unlocked.
Last edited by Atrue , edited 2 times in total.
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings
i'm reading posts and checking mods now, plz no more drama for the thread's already unlocked.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil
I just left the map playing on auto without the music, only with the hitsounds, they sound great, but at the same time it's waste since all the rhythms of the song are represented just by pressing 1/4 streams at an almost constant speed in spaced streams or just tapping at 1/2 timing to the sliders. It lacks impact of the feeling of playing the song, osu is limited to two keys and cursor movement, since people mentioned Elemental Creation here, take a look at that map, you press the main beats of the song and the strong parts, it's a hard map but feels great because of the feedback you get from your movements from both hands, I don't get this feeling in Genryuu Kaiko, it's just like I'm pressing notes trying to hit circles mapped to the slightest noises in the background... just my two cents on this.

btw, great hitsounding
Ovoui
995 posts
Joined January 2013
Ovoui
random mod, hope it will be usefull

[Mysterious hymn]

00:13:064 (2,2) - i believe that stacking slider is an unrankable issue

i understand on what you mapped the stream but i think it's interenting to map this sound because of the hitsounds it's not listenable

02:43:931 (1) - may be this this jump is a bit to much large

03:13:064 (1) - nice scythe

03:15:839 (1) - this overlapping is very strange

03:15:839 (1,2) - it could be nice of you make a blank with thoses slider

04:50:174 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - it's a bit repetitive here, you can do something better
i suggest you this

1 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377441
2 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377443
3 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377446
4 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377449 (overlapping are visible because i change the ar to 0 to take screen)

well gl hf, i wish this map will be requalified ans pls don't quit osu i'll be sad without your map :(
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings
for there's loooooots of post here, i just generally give a response:

however the map is suck or great to u, if it's different to others in ur mind, then i'll be glad to see that. this map is made in my highest mapping quality, thou there's streams and spaced aiming patterns, i did those after lots of thoughts and testing. maybe lots of u guys judged this map by just looking at it in editor without playing, coz u can't play or won't do it. well, that's so sad to me coz i always think the playing feedback is the most important thing in mapping or to the whole osu game, just like i always prefer a map looks bad but plays good.

yeah i used to wanna give up this map coz i think no matter what i did to this, the result will be disappoint at last. i have to say that i already lost all of motivation to rank any map, for i tried to find the ballance between me and community but always failed at last. the only reason i'm here is other's strong willing with inspiration of having faith to the appreciation system again. idk what'll happen eventually, but plz regard this as my last trying.

to ticclick:
1. about blatant abuse of patterns: that's the exact way i map this song with same patterns, in their best settings.
2. about volume of hitsounds: i can hear all of them clearly, but well not all people can do that. yeah i know, just like those ones who said this map's objs followed nothing and ignored those obvious 1/4 sounds directly hue. largered hitnormal's volume a bit.
3. about massive pile of overlapping copypaste: same response as 1's above.
4. about diff name: changed to "Higan Torrent" instead.
to onijam:
fixed both

MillhioreF wrote:

Instead of tossing around blame and namecalling pointlessly, I'm going to point out some patterns in this map that I don't think are very fair at all. Examples:

01:26:070 (15,1) - You expect the player to cross 75% of the screen in less than 1/10 of a second, and the music isn't even especially intense there, which doesn't make much sense. Most people complaining about the map are doing so because of patterns like this that aim for sheer difficulty rather than playability or going along with the music. thou i don't think my version's wrong but since lots of modders and testers complained about this, i decide to change it to another style to fit the normal sense.

02:01:446 (7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - I don't objectively have problems with most of the stream spacing in this map, but the angle change here feels HORRIBLE, at least to me. Around (11) or so, the angle takes a sharp turn instead of a smooth one, and it just doesn't really work. I'm not sure I've full comboed this part ever, and I've tried this map a lot. 00:43:758 (7,8,9,10,11,12,13) - has a similar problem, although it's not quite as bad. after lots of tests i can say thou the stream looks horrible, even some one recommend me change those shapes to regular pentagon or something like that to give "more clear and well done composing" which i won't agree with those testing results.

03:00:579 (2,1,1) - The slider blanketing here isn't very great, and the blanketing all throughout this slow section suffers from similar issues. Set the circle size to 2.5 to see it more clearly. lol, maybe only u can find issues like this coz u did ez mode www, fixed.

04:00:231 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - The note speedup here also feels pretty bad, and to me it feels more luck-based whether you hit it or not because you have to change your cursor angle and speed so quickly. i can some kind of agree with u after scaning some replays on the score board, so i decide to merge note 7 and 8 into a 1/4 slider to low down the risk of combo breaking, still kept a part of spaced stream thou.

04:13:845 (14,15,16,1,2,3,4) - Another really sharp, weird angle that I screw up more often than not. This one isn't as bad as the others I've mentioned though. yes, this is fine imo.

04:25:116 (16,1) - What am I looking at? I can't think of any possible cursor motion that can play this intuitively. believe it or not, it's easier to play than fluent flow in streams.

05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - Not necessarily a problem, but can anyone even FC this? 1.20x note spacing on 2 x 2.8 slider velocity. even i can do it myself (sometime thou orz).


I actually like this map a lot; it's challenging, fun to play, and has a lot of awesome-looking patterns. The problem is that it's just not very high quality, and the problem with making maps this hard is that almost nobody knows how it actually feels to play, or whether certain patterns work or not, so it's not going to get too many useful mods - and even if it does, you might have to give up some of your awesome patterns because, despite your best effort, and despite how fun they might be to play, they're not necessarily good.

Remember: there's nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard.

Yauxo wrote:

While we're at it, here's a thing that buggs me quite much.

■ I really love these Streams 04:05:781 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - and the idea behind them, but I really hate the fact that these sharp turns sometimes happen on normal beats (and not on the very strong ones that'd indicate such a change) or vocals. This goes for: i know what u mean, and actually, i did what u said which is correct to u, maybe it's hard to notice or it's just not good to u thou.

04:09:075 (7) -
04:13:238 (7) -
04:17:313 (7) -
04:18:786 (7) -
04:24:423 (8) -
04:45:318 (9) -
04:46:706 (9) -
04:48:180 (10) -

It'd feel more natural if you'd only use these for the very strong beat in the song (best example is the first stream Ive posted).

■ I would also shape 04:22:081 (13,14,15,16) - more curvy to the right. There's no real reason to have the start of the next combo on the right side if it's shaped like that. the reason u mentioned above fits here imo.

Edit: oh, also. These things 01:28:584 (6,7,8) - feel extremely awkward. You're most likely expecting a repeat Slider like the tons of the times you've had that one before, but there's none and you just suddenly have to play the next repeat Slider that starts on a red tick (opposed to the all-white-tick combo before that) yeah, but well i think this is not that hard to play if u can go through the previous part, and this pattern maybe a little tricky while playing fine thou.

Ovoui wrote:

random mod, hope it will be usefull

[Mysterious hymn]

00:13:064 (2,2) - i believe that stacking slider is an unrankable issue no, it's not.

i understand on what you mapped the stream but i think it's interenting to map this sound because of the hitsounds it's not listenable

02:43:931 (1) - may be this this jump is a bit to much large already changed.

03:13:064 (1) - nice scythe

03:15:839 (1) - this overlapping is very strange

03:15:839 (1,2) - it could be nice of you make a blank with thoses slider current ones r fine enough.

04:50:174 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - it's a bit repetitive here, you can do something better sry but i won't change the last part coz it's perfect now.
i suggest you this

1 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377441
2 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377443
3 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377446
4 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2377449 (overlapping are visible because i change the ar to 0 to take screen)

well gl hf, i wish this map will be requalified ans pls don't quit osu i'll be sad without your map :(
thx for modding!
Last edited by Hollow Wings , edited 1 time in total.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
ITSHAPPENING?.jpg
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
oh man I really want this to be approved because the way I see it, this is like chipscape

it's one of those necessary hard maps that will make players improve more and more
Canozo
17 posts
Joined December 2012
Canozo
:o
Last edited by Canozo , edited 1 time in total.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
You know, there's this song by Muse on GH:3 where the chart is mostly either just alt strumming or long notes, which is basically the equivalent of streams and 1/2. Not every song is the same, and what works in one song won't really work for the other. Personally I feel like the way the streams/sliders are mapped out properly carry over the song's draggy feel (the vocals and melodies are very drawn out, there's no real stop-motion going on in there) while still accentuating the constant and intense percussive rhythms in the song.

You need to keep in mind that everybody hears music differently. It takes quite some amount of training to be able to objectively discern each audible instrument in a song (and even more practice to properly hear ghost notes and the like) and until that time I feel as though people should try taking their own biases into account before making comments on how a song's audio is conveyed in a game chart. The only way to preserve mapping individuality and artistic freedom is by focusing your advice on how to improve in the mapper's terms, not your own. So, saying "your sv is too big" "your rhythms don't fit" or, in other words "your interpretation of the map is wrong" will never do a thing for the mapper. Your suggestions must fit the mapper's idea of what they intended with the map, and only try to further improve their own ideas, rather than impose yours on theirs and ruin the map altogether.

I'll be adding my own two cents though, in the hopes that we can get this ranked again soon.

small mod~

Mysterious Hymn
Rhythms & Patterns
A big issue that people have with your streams, I think, isn't the streams themselves and more the jumps in between them. It's not even that they're too large, just that they're counter-intuitive, which makes them feel too large. I personally didn't have a problem with a lot of these but I'll be giving suggestions on the ones you can improve.

00:25:203 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - With your previous stream, you get a consistent momentum going for the player, eventually ending it in an diagonally upwards-right angle, and then you make a jump diagonally downwards-left, only to go back to where you came from at the same momentum that you previously had, meaning that the player has to make a really sharp, heavy turn and then go back where they came from at a constant rate that's 3x less fast than the ones they just arrived from, all within a timeframe of 174ms. Now, most experienced players can pull this off - hell, even I can, but that doesn't make it comfortable to play. Don't worry, I won't write a wall for every mod post, I just want to explain why this doesn't work. For this pattern, try flipping it horizontally and then placing it in the bottom right corner, like so http://puu.sh/dG1tT.png. Obviously adjust the other patterns so everything stays pretty too

00:28:671 (5,6,7,8) - Mild suggestion - It'd be nice to add some variety to these patterns by using some rearranging and ctrl + G magic. I used NCs here to show you exactly what I mean but you should not apply these NC's!. They're only there to make my suggestion easier to understand http://puu.sh/dG1XJ.png. That said, if you want to NC those, be my guest.

00:39:769 (5,6,7,8) - http://puu.sh/dG2cO.png
00:44:451 (15) - This slider is placed a bit too far to the right, and doesn't follow the earlier stream's momentum very well. With spaced streams especially, keeping track of momentum is crucial to making your map enjoyable. Try something like this instead http://puu.sh/dG2iV.png

00:44:972 (3) - Move to x352 y144 for better flow

00:45:665 (1,2,3,4,5) - This stream is a problem, because it involves a lot of stacks but needs changing. What I've found to work best flow-wise was something like this http://puu.sh/dG2Sw.png where I simply copypasted 00:45:145 (1,2,3,4,5) - , flipped it horizontally and scaled the pattern's spacing by 1.5x. You can rework the other patterns around it to make sure everything's pretty, I'm sure.

01:17:226 (1) - ctrl + G
01:18:613 (2) - ^
01:23:295 (8) - ^ maybe? Not sure about this
01:26:070 (15,1) - I mentioned this jump in an earlier post, it's really counterintuitive. You can maintain a similar flow but make it more playable by rounding the circle out like this http://puu.sh/dG43O.png http://puu.sh/dG46A.png

01:29:191 (1) - Ctrl + G
01:29:365 (2) - ^
01:29:538 (3) - ^ (Reason I mention these separately is because I want you to invert them individually, not as a whole)

01:30:232 (4,1) - This jump is really awkward. Also, the two streams afterwards don't flow that great. It would probably be better if you remapped them, and start the first stream at this kind of angle http://puu.sh/dG5ju.png

The kiai after this is really solid, nice job!

02:02:313 (1,2,3) - Change these jumps to something like this http://puu.sh/dG5Nc.png for better flow
02:03:353 (1,2,3,4,5) - This pattern is too widely spaced for the flow you're trying to use here. Scale the pattern by 0.8x and rotate it by -30° to get it to look like this http://puu.sh/dG5QQ.png. Trust me, plays way better.

02:15:145 (2,3,4) - Stacking these doesn't play that well in my opinion, mostly due to your low stack leniency. Try something like this instead http://puu.sh/dG5V9.png

02:16:706 (2) - I think it would be better to stack this on the sliderend of 02:16:879 (3) - . That actually be a lot more "you" than the way it is now.

02:18:093 (4) - http://puu.sh/dG62h.png
02:19:654 (3,1,2) - Can you make this pattern similar to the ones you did here 02:11:677 (2,1,2) - ? That'd flow a lot better
02:43:758 (15,1) - This is not okay. Ctrl H J this pattern 02:43:931 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - and then adapt it into something like this http://puu.sh/dG6gM.png http://puu.sh/dG6hK.png

02:45:319 (1) - Ctrl G
03:01:966 (1) - ^

03:15:839 (1,2,3) - 2 fits with 3, but 1 doesn't fit with 2. I have a suggestion but it's not all that great, since I'm not very good with sliders, but I don't like telling a mapper something isn't good without giving a way to fix it, so http://puu.sh/dG6Kp.png http://puu.sh/dG6MC.png. Each of these sliders blankets the previous one to some degree, so I'd say it's still aesthetically better than two huge threepoints that seem fairly disconnected. Still though, if you have a better idea, then by all means, please do that instead.

03:37:342 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - Something like this http://puu.sh/dG6Tx.png or similar for readability. This pattern is really hard to read otherwise.

03:43:584 (1) - Despite what TicClick said, this kiai is really good. The first time I played this this part was awesome and I actually FCd it, so please leave this as is. This part is really really nice.

04:17:920 (13,14,15,16) - Why not make stacks like this and 04:19:653 (1,2,3,4) - this into kick sliders? I'm not sure about that though, considering that the deathstream actually fits this section pretty well. Just putting this out there.

Now comes that one part that nobody seems to have modded, probably because it's really hard to judge. Or, well, it looks hard to judge, while the part is actually quite straightforward. It's just that maintaining a consistent flow at such an insane sv is incredibly difficult to pull off well.

So, first things first, you'll need to rearrange this 04:49:827 (1,2,3,4) - pattern into something like this http://puu.sh/dG7lZ.png or else hitting that slider without breaking will not only be nearly impossible, it'll just be plain annoying. Yes, this sacrifices some aesthetics, but playability is always more important than that.

You can stack 04:48:960 (2) - on top of 04:49:914 (2) - to soften things up a little, and if you're really nazi about looks (like me) you can just rearrange this 04:47:399 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - so that stacking with 04:49:827 (1) - becomes possible. In that case, though, leave the jumps prior to 04:49:827 (1) - looking like this http://puu.sh/dG7Df.png

04:53:295 (2) - Now lower this a little. In fact, you can lower this entire section, because jumps like these become way easier to hit if they're further away from the top of the screen. For mouse players it's a little different, but always keep in mind that the easiest accessible spots for a tablet player are either the bottom left or the bottom right, depending on whether they're right or left-handed respectively. This makes the top right the hardest accessible place for right-handed tablet players, which will probably be the majority of people playing your map.

05:00:579 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - Now, if you want to pull this off, you can't do it like this. You have a few options. You can ctrl + G 05:00:579 (1) - , which would maintain the continuity of the previous sections while making the last stream a lot easier to hit, but it'll still be at an awkward angle.
Alternatively, you could ctrl G 05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - , but that'd result in an antijump. It does play better for me than the current pattern but not everybody likes those, so that's up to you.
You could also rearrange the stream, in a way that makes them flow better while maintaining the current pattern's tonal crescendo, which is actually really awesome about that part, like so http://puu.sh/dG82s.png

Lastly, you could make the stream grow exponentially. This would even further accentuate the crescendo of the melody while also making it more playable. What I mean is something like this http://puu.sh/dG8rT.png, though whether they'll all be NC'd or not is up to you. Personally, I find this the best option, but I still wanted to give you other ones in case you don't like this.

Hitsounds
Your hitsounding is awesome, but soft-hitnormal.wav is too low a volume and blends too well with the music. Consider making the sample stand out more.
Other than that, no complaints. Great work. Seriously.

Really hope this helps you out, HW. Sorry if it might be a little sloppy, it was late at night when I did the mod. Good luck ranking this, it's a great map. Really.
I've saved the modded version so if there's any questions you have about patterns just PM me about them.
Last edited by Nyxa , edited 3 times in total.
Hanatan
15 posts
Joined January 2012
Hanatan
HW加油，I support u 4ever ( ˘ω˘ )
Kaguya Hourain
514 posts
Joined October 2012
Kaguya Hourain
I should throw a mod your way sometime soon if this doesn't get reranked by the time I decide to. Cool mods from the rest here!
Cillit Bang
19 posts
Joined March 2014
Cillit Bang
Il tell you some of this bashing on Hollow is unfair. at the end of the day just because you are bad and cannot play this map dosent make this map bad. il update this when i get a skilled player to give a fair non biased opinion on it.

EDIT: Mustys opinion : http://prntscr.com/5k2qhl and http://prntscr.com/5k2r74

And people saying they will quit and shit if this gets ranked, I now want this to get ranked to get rid of all the bashers

overall my opinion on it is that is a hard map, a fun map and lots of effort from Hollow and the modders has been put into it
anyone who bashes this map is most likely an idiot who purchased a tablet and taught from that he could stream 300bmp instantly no effort

if you think you can do a better job instead of bashing on this map go make your own, then maybe we will shit on your hype and effort? because its not nice
it breaks my heart how hollow is trying to meet everyone's wants and needs. *que annoying little girls voice back and forthing 2easy 2hard omfg noob 2easy 2hard*

At the end of the day be open minded watch this on auto for a bit and you will realise that it is a hard map and a map what will be a challenge or a goal for most players like me! Thats some people play, they see that hard map the play it. Y hey muster up the willpower to pass it through all though all the painful streams on your left/right arm and you finally done it you passed a difficult map and you can show off. its like when you pass airman you instantly press f9 and start pming your friends while spamming #osu anyone who dosent play a game with a goal like this why spend hours on it.

TL;DR : Dont bash mappers, map is fun, be a completionist and optimist about everything :lol:
Last edited by Cillit Bang , edited 1 time in total.
Musty
2,254 posts
Joined February 2010
Musty
I feel like being on a 2012 thread, waiting for the nuke or something thats kinda weird (jk)

Anyways, i didn't expected that but i actually enjoy this map. It is indeed pretty fun and as lewa said will help most of the people outta there to improve their aiming
Even tho, i can confirm that there are some patterns that wasn't suitable but i guess it's alright as everyone will take a look at the map now, raise ur kudosus
Te Amo
246 posts
Joined January 2013
Te Amo
Its really fun.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Waiting for someone to say that a fun and pretty map isn't necessarily good.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
A FUN AND PRETTY MAP ISN'T NECESSARILY GOOD
Vell
360 posts
Joined October 2013
Vell
A fun map is not necessarily a good map? I thought that was the purpose of a game, having fun, and this is fun so i consider this map being good.
I would rephrase that to 'a good map cannot necessarily be ranked.'
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp
Well this map is actually good. But the thing is, when I hear the song the last thing I would think of are endless high spaced (slider-)streams. Compare it to chipscape for example. When I hear the song preview there I instantly think "stream map". But on this song here it just doesn't fit imo. Had you made this map for a different fitting song, no problem. Because the mapping is actually nice. But on this songs it feels more like "streams just for the sake of it" (please don't feel offended, I can imagine you put a lot of work in it and I am not going to downplay that). As Mikakage said it doesn't feel like you are playing the song.

Also I am not sure if this was already mentioned, but why the sharp turn in the stream here 01:59:277 (14,15) - ? You have no turn on these parts 00:41:590 (14,15) - and 01:42:631 (14,15) - and 01:48:180 (14,15) - and 01:53:728 (14,15) - (and in general all the time when this part in the song/map comes) so why the sudden change?
And I don't like this stack 04:19:567 (16,5) - I'd move (5) a bit to the right to balance the stream. I mean you didn't stack these here either 04:24:335 (7,9) - .
Last edited by Tshemmp , edited 1 time in total.
vape
69 posts
Joined April 2013
vape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... bY18#t=251



???

I'm glad people are trying to rank harder maps again, but forcing difficulty isn't how to do it, especially when some of the patters are borderline irritating to play. Compare this to freedom dive, it also has absurdly long streams. Listen to the song though, they belong there. That song was destined to be hard. This isn't. As much as I want a difficult map to be ranked, this is going to set a bad example.
Spayyce
707 posts
Joined December 2013
Spayyce
While I personally dont like the stream jumps because I suck ^w^ I think for the more experienced players it's a fun and enjoyable map, I don't agree with how heavily it's mapped but stop trying to force the mapper to change their style, if they want to map like what is done let them :/

Great map btw support!

༼つಠ益ಠ༽つ ─=≡Σ
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Vell wrote:

A fun map is not necessarily a good map? I thought that was the purpose of a game, having fun, and this is fun so i consider this map being good.
I would rephrase that to 'a good map cannot necessarily be ranked.'
Lots of people in the mapping/modding community will say that maps that are enjoyable to play for most aren't necessarily at their best or aesthetically pleasing, and that that by definition makes it "not good". I would like to take your rephrasing another step further and say that "a good map is not necessarily ready for ranking". Mostly because, in your scenario, that means there are nukeable good maps, which is kinda self-contradictory, I'd say. Even Eighto (490 diff) would've been rankable given enough modding and a full spread, at least by the standards of back then.

Tshemmp wrote:

Well this map is actually good. But the thing is, when I hear the song the last thing I would think of are endless high spaced (slider-)streams. Compare it to chipscape for example. When I hear the song preview there I instantly think "stream map". But on this song here it just doesn't fit imo. Had you made this map for a different fitting song, no problem. Because the mapping is actually nice. But on this songs it feels more like "streams just for the sake of it" (please don't feel offended, I can imagine you put a lot of work in it and I am not going to downplay that). As Mikakage said it doesn't feel like you are playing the song.
As I've said earlier, the main issue with this is that not everybody is equally musical, so to some people the streams will be a painfully obvious result of the song while others will be like "wtf overmap D:<", and this can lead to both sides will be calling each other retarded because they're both interpreting the song in a different way (which, if you've noticed, is exactly what has been happening).

When it comes to this, I'd say; if the notes mapped exist in the song, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. However the mapper interpreted it, as long as it can be considered good by a significant majority (this includes both players and mappers/modders), it should be rankable, or it should at least be possible to get it to a state wherein it is rankable through modding without harming the map too much.

Tshemmp wrote:

Also I am not sure if this was already mentioned, but [...]
I think I addressed all of these in my mod above.
Pappy
1,020 posts
Joined August 2013
Pappy

AR9 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WSj3_8kbY18#t=251



???

I'm glad people are trying to rank harder maps again, but forcing difficulty isn't how to do it, especially when some of the patters are borderline irritating to play. Compare this to freedom dive, it also has absurdly long streams. Listen to the song though, they belong there. That song was destined to be hard. This isn't. As much as I want a difficult map to be ranked, this is going to set a bad example.
Please read previous 16 pages before posting. Somebody (million ppl) said it before you.
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp

Tess wrote:

Tshemmp wrote:

Well this map is actually good. But the thing is, when I hear the song the last thing I would think of are endless high spaced (slider-)streams. Compare it to chipscape for example. When I hear the song preview there I instantly think "stream map". But on this song here it just doesn't fit imo. Had you made this map for a different fitting song, no problem. Because the mapping is actually nice. But on this songs it feels more like "streams just for the sake of it" (please don't feel offended, I can imagine you put a lot of work in it and I am not going to downplay that). As Mikakage said it doesn't feel like you are playing the song.
As I've said earlier, the main issue with this is that not everybody is equally musical, so to some people the streams will be a painfully obvious result of the song while others will be like "wtf overmap D:<", and this can lead to both sides will be calling each other retarded because they're both interpreting the song in a different way (which, if you've noticed, is exactly what has been happening).
Yeah, that's a thing up to individual interpretation. I was just stating my opinion. I mean I wouldn't even mind if this got ranked, nobody forces me to play it anyway (which I still would, because as said the map itself is good :D).

Tess wrote:

Tshemmp wrote:

Also I am not sure if this was already mentioned, but [...]
I think I addressed all of these in my mod above.
Can you link it to me (and especially HW's answer to it)? I am somehow to stupid to find it.
edit: oh nvm, I found it, you hid it in a box
edit2: read through your mod, my points are different from yours though
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Maybe I misunderstood your points, then. And it's actually good to see someone who realizes that they're not forced to play every ranked map, which is exactly why difficulty shouldn't be what determines how rankable a map is. Tenshi is my #1 example of that.
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri

AR9 wrote:

1. forcing

2. some of the patters are borderline irritating to play.

3. they belong there. That song was destined to be hard.

4. this is going to set a bad example.
all these hurr hurr opinions

so when are the mods coming to insert their opinions fix some patterns? Even if this is a tablet-bait map, this is really fun! :D
scanter
2,390 posts
Joined July 2012
scanter
guys don't you think helping this map is better than arguing about overmapping or art?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I really hope HW doesn't overlook my mod because it's buried under this mess. Also fully behind scanter and OniJAM here, just leave the thread alone unless you have something constructive to add.
Kaguya Hourain
514 posts
Joined October 2012
Kaguya Hourain
I think it's time to start deleting posts if we want this map to move forward.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I'm not gonna reply anymore after this but could we please stop posting shit like "This should be ranked !!! \:D/" and "lol this sucks if this gets ranked i'll commit salami xD :^\". Either post mods or wait until further progress on the map has been made. Your opinion has already been posted 30 times before and all it does is clutter up the thread, so please.

Let the mapper, modders and BATs deal with the ranking process, like it's supposed to happen.

Edited to make it larger because apparently it wasn't noticeable enough. Is it really that hard to not post? It costs more effort than posting, you know.
Last edited by Nyxa , edited 2 times in total.
Quichey
88 posts
Joined August 2012
Quichey
Just my opinion, stacking sliders on each other in the same place is obnoxious and unreadable.
I experimented with moving some of them around, and the flow seems a lot better.
LexiaLovesU
822 posts
Joined June 2012
LexiaLovesU
Get back to the map you dont need to keep wasting posts saying your opinions about the DQ or Arguing with one another if you want to argue take that via PM if you want it ranked so baddly mod it causei if this dicusstion keeps up like this the thread will get locked its DQed so instead of wasting the mappers time Argueing with it eachother how about you mod the map so it can go forward
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS
this whole thread is the perfect example of why subjectiveness should not be used for decision-making.

Higan Torrent
tbh I'd suggest to add variety to the patterns and not just copy paste at the beginning idk
add dnb, and breakbeat to the tags

00:16:359 (2) - x:244 y:232


pls use stacks imo they'll cause less shitstorm and aesthetically look better for places like:
00:47:920 (3) -
00:49:134 (2) -
00:50:694 (3) -
00:52:255 (3,1) -
00:53:469 (2) -

00:59:191 - add note pls
01:01:966 (1,2,3,4) - I think this is overmapped
01:18:873 (1) - I'd say remove this note
01:33:006 (15) - x:272 y:284
02:09:943 (4,5) - I think this is also overmapped
02:36:561 (1) - I'd say to remove this too

03:21:388 (1) - I love this part thx bb

03:43:151 (1) - remove this 2 pls
04:18:006 (14,15,16) - LOLPLS (imo it'd be better if u removed the stack and u used your usual slider-ending-the-stream pattern for it, same with all the stacks that stream feels like it was mapped like that only to piss ppl off lmao u feel me)
04:38:728 (1,2,3,4) - pls make them into sliders instead
04:55:376 (2,3,4,5) - OMG


y'all need to calm ur shit this map deserves to be ranked
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,425 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

LexiaLovesU wrote:

Get back to the map you dont need to keep wasting posts saying your opinions about the DQ or Arguing with one another if you want to argue take that via PM if you want it ranked so baddly mod it causei if this dicusstion keeps up like this the thread will get locked its DQed so instead of wasting the mappers time Argueing with it eachother how about you mod the map so it can go forward
It's fine to leave the own opinion as long it can be explained. However, Tess got a good point:

Mod this map or don't post here. More things are not needed to say for the moment because it results to more shitstorm which results to more shitposts we already got enough of them.
Halfslashed
Global Moderator
438 posts
Joined July 2014
Halfslashed
Well, I'm all for this map getting ranked, but I'm not too experienced in modding, nor can I play test this. I guess i'll just do a small mod based on my musical knowledge. Feel free to completely ignore this, but I want to at least show my support by trying.

[Higan Torrent]
Remove "Touhou" from source and instead put it in the tags, as it is not from the official game.
03:00:579 (2) - This slider ends on a red tick, where as all the others end on a blue tick. Be consistent with this and either change this to end on a blue tick or all the others to end on a red tick.
04:00:231 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I'm confused as to why these have increasing spacing. I don't really hear any musical cue to indicate a spacing increase here. Why don't you try using constant spacing for each of those? Since this occurs three times in succession, you should try something similar to the beginning where you escalated the spacing every time the same rhythm was repeated. (Streams at 00:40:463 have 0.70x, 00:41:850 have 0.80x, and 00:43:238 have 1.1x)
04:01:619 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ^
04:03:006 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ^
04:05:781 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - I've got a bit of a problem with this section of this amazing stream. The entire stream aside from this point makes turns according to the string instrument in the background (I want to say violin, but I'm not completely sure). This section has two very sharp turns that don't really fit with the music.

That's pretty much all I can say for this, good luck, really.
Momochikun
1,954 posts
Joined October 2012
Momochikun
posting for a drama that would be a part of history ﾟωﾟ #newpage ftw

take my star ~
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
this map was hard on ctb and it looked fun and interesting on standard, I love hollow wing style cuz it looks much to me as a art piece expressing his personality in his maps unlike 90% of the other robot mappers with same old copy paste patterns, that's just my 2 cents but I like hollow wings map cuz it stands out to be unique .
Norb
298 posts
Joined September 2012
Norb
lol, no
LexiaLovesU
822 posts
Joined June 2012
LexiaLovesU
dont start a flame war again there is enough opinions about this map already as of this point pls if you arent going to mod just dont say anything ill mod this as soon as im done with my current requests Place holder for a mod owo
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

VINXIS wrote:

this whole thread is the perfect example of why subjectiveness should not be used for decision-making.

Higan Torrent
tbh I'd suggest to add variety to the patterns and not just copy paste at the beginning idk
add dnb, and breakbeat to the tags

00:16:359 (2) - x:244 y:232


pls use stacks imo they'll cause less shitstorm and aesthetically look better for places like:
00:47:920 (3) - this is already stacked to another obj.
00:49:134 (2) - ^
00:50:694 (3) - ^
00:52:255 (3,1) - ^
00:53:469 (2) - ^

00:59:191 - add note pls nope.
01:01:966 (1,2,3,4) - I think this is overmapped no, it's not. here's following the electrical tick beat.
01:18:873 (1) - I'd say remove this note it's ok to both rhythm and playing.
01:33:006 (15) - x:272 y:284 have organization to 01:33:873 (5) - so nope.
02:09:943 (4,5) - I think this is also overmapped no, it's not as well. here's following the vocal beat.
02:36:561 (1) - I'd say to remove this too same as above.

03:21:388 (1) - I love this part thx bb www.

03:43:151 (1) - remove this 2 pls same as above.
04:18:006 (14,15,16) - LOLPLS (imo it'd be better if u removed the stack and u used your usual slider-ending-the-stream pattern for it, same with all the stacks that stream feels like it was mapped like that only to piss ppl off lmao u feel me) it's just a kind of stream style just like other ones.
04:38:728 (1,2,3,4) - pls make them into sliders instead nope for same patterns before.
04:55:376 (2,3,4,5) - OMG OMG


y'all need to calm ur shit this map deserves to be ranked

Halfslashed wrote:

Well, I'm all for this map getting ranked, but I'm not too experienced in modding, nor can I play test this. I guess i'll just do a small mod based on my musical knowledge. Feel free to completely ignore this, but I want to at least show my support by trying.

[Higan Torrent]
Remove "Touhou" from source and instead put it in the tags, as it is not from the official game. the source will be always "Touhou" if the song's re-arranged from a official touhou song.
03:00:579 (2) - This slider ends on a red tick, where as all the others end on a blue tick. Be consistent with this and either change this to end on a blue tick or all the others to end on a red tick.
04:00:231 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - I'm confused as to why these have increasing spacing. I don't really hear any musical cue to indicate a spacing increase here. Why don't you try using constant spacing for each of those? Since this occurs three times in succession, you should try something similar to the beginning where you escalated the spacing every time the same rhythm was repeated. (Streams at 00:40:463 have 0.70x, 00:41:850 have 0.80x, and 00:43:238 have 1.1x) same vocal + hasty drum beats tell me set pattern like this.
04:01:619 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ^ ^
04:03:006 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ^ ^
04:05:781 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - I've got a bit of a problem with this section of this amazing stream. The entire stream aside from this point makes turns according to the string instrument in the background (I want to say violin, but I'm not completely sure). This section has two very sharp turns that don't really fit with the music. then try vocal track.

That's pretty much all I can say for this, good luck, really.
thx for modding!
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Hollow Wings, I think that all the discussion made you overlook a mod I posted before those two you replied to. Reposting it here for clarity's sake.

This is why you shouldn't fill a map's thread with pointless discussion.

Higan Torrent

Higan Torrent
Is there a reason you changed from Mysterious Hymn to Higan Torrent? I personally liked Mysterious Hymn a looot more. I hope you'll change it back but it's up to you of course.

Rhythms & Patterns
A big issue that people have with your streams, I think, isn't the streams themselves and more the jumps in between them. It's not even that they're too large, just that they're counter-intuitive, which makes them feel too large. I personally didn't have a problem with a lot of these but I'll be giving suggestions on the ones you can improve.

00:25:203 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - With your previous stream, you get a consistent momentum going for the player, eventually ending it in an diagonally upwards-right angle, and then you make a jump diagonally downwards-left, only to go back to where you came from at the same momentum that you previously had, meaning that the player has to make a really sharp, heavy turn and then go back where they came from at a constant rate that's 3x less fast than the ones they just arrived from, all within a timeframe of 174ms. Now, most experienced players can pull this off - hell, even I can, but that doesn't make it comfortable to play. Don't worry, I won't write a wall for every mod post, I just want to explain why this doesn't work. For this pattern, try flipping it horizontally and then placing it in the bottom right corner, like so http://puu.sh/dG1tT.png. Obviously adjust the other patterns so everything stays pretty too

00:28:671 (5,6,7,8) - Mild suggestion - It'd be nice to add some variety to these patterns by using some rearranging and ctrl + G magic. I used NCs here to show you exactly what I mean but you should not apply these NC's!. They're only there to make my suggestion easier to understand http://puu.sh/dG1XJ.png. That said, if you want to NC those, be my guest.

00:39:769 (5,6,7,8) - http://puu.sh/dG2cO.png
00:44:451 (15) - This slider is placed a bit too far to the right, and doesn't follow the earlier stream's momentum very well. With spaced streams especially, keeping track of momentum is crucial to making your map enjoyable. Try something like this instead http://puu.sh/dG2iV.png

00:44:972 (3) - Move to x352 y144 for better flow

00:45:665 (1,2,3,4,5) - This stream is a problem, because it involves a lot of stacks but needs changing. What I've found to work best flow-wise was something like this http://puu.sh/dG2Sw.png where I simply copypasted 00:45:145 (1,2,3,4,5) - , flipped it horizontally and scaled the pattern's spacing by 1.5x. You can rework the other patterns around it to make sure everything's pretty, I'm sure.

01:17:226 (1) - ctrl + G
01:18:613 (2) - ^
01:23:295 (8) - ^ maybe? Not sure about this
01:26:070 (15,1) - I mentioned this jump in an earlier post, it's really counterintuitive. You can maintain a similar flow but make it more playable by rounding the circle out like this http://puu.sh/dG43O.png http://puu.sh/dG46A.png

01:29:191 (1) - Ctrl + G
01:29:365 (2) - ^
01:29:538 (3) - ^ (Reason I mention these separately is because I want you to invert them individually, not as a whole)

01:30:232 (4,1) - This jump is really awkward. Also, the two streams afterwards don't flow that great. It would probably be better if you remapped them, and start the first stream at this kind of angle http://puu.sh/dG5ju.png

The kiai after this is really solid, nice job!

02:02:313 (1,2,3) - Change these jumps to something like this http://puu.sh/dG5Nc.png for better flow
02:03:353 (1,2,3,4,5) - This pattern is too widely spaced for the flow you're trying to use here. Scale the pattern by 0.8x and rotate it by -30° to get it to look like this http://puu.sh/dG5QQ.png. Trust me, plays way better.

02:15:145 (2,3,4) - Stacking these doesn't play that well in my opinion, mostly due to your low stack leniency. Try something like this instead http://puu.sh/dG5V9.png

02:16:706 (2) - I think it would be better to stack this on the sliderend of 02:16:879 (3) - . That actually be a lot more "you" than the way it is now.

02:18:093 (4) - http://puu.sh/dG62h.png
02:19:654 (3,1,2) - Can you make this pattern similar to the ones you did here 02:11:677 (2,1,2) - ? That'd flow a lot better
02:43:758 (15,1) - This is not okay. Ctrl H J this pattern 02:43:931 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - and then adapt it into something like this http://puu.sh/dG6gM.png http://puu.sh/dG6hK.png

02:45:319 (1) - Ctrl G
03:01:966 (1) - ^

03:15:839 (1,2,3) - 2 fits with 3, but 1 doesn't fit with 2. I have a suggestion but it's not all that great, since I'm not very good with sliders, but I don't like telling a mapper something isn't good without giving a way to fix it, so http://puu.sh/dG6Kp.png http://puu.sh/dG6MC.png. Each of these sliders blankets the previous one to some degree, so I'd say it's still aesthetically better than two huge threepoints that seem fairly disconnected. Still though, if you have a better idea, then by all means, please do that instead.

03:37:342 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - Something like this http://puu.sh/dG6Tx.png or similar for readability. This pattern is really hard to read otherwise.

03:43:584 (1) - Despite what TicClick said, this kiai is really good. The first time I played this this part was awesome and I actually FCd it, so please leave this as is. This part is really really nice.

04:17:920 (13,14,15,16) - Why not make stacks like this and 04:19:653 (1,2,3,4) - this into kick sliders? I'm not sure about that though, considering that the deathstream actually fits this section pretty well. Just putting this out there.

Now comes that one part that nobody seems to have modded, probably because it's really hard to judge. Or, well, it looks hard to judge, while the part is actually quite straightforward. It's just that maintaining a consistent flow at such an insane sv is incredibly difficult to pull off well.

So, first things first, you'll need to rearrange this 04:49:827 (1,2,3,4) - pattern into something like this http://puu.sh/dG7lZ.png or else hitting that slider without breaking will not only be nearly impossible, it'll just be plain annoying. Yes, this sacrifices some aesthetics, but playability is always more important than that.

You can stack 04:48:960 (2) - on top of 04:49:914 (2) - to soften things up a little, and if you're really nazi about looks (like me) you can just rearrange this 04:47:399 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - so that stacking with 04:49:827 (1) - becomes possible. In that case, though, leave the jumps prior to 04:49:827 (1) - looking like this http://puu.sh/dG7Df.png

04:53:295 (2) - Now lower this a little. In fact, you can lower this entire section, because jumps like these become way easier to hit if they're further away from the top of the screen. For mouse players it's a little different, but always keep in mind that the easiest accessible spots for a tablet player are either the bottom left or the bottom right, depending on whether they're right or left-handed respectively. This makes the top right the hardest accessible place for right-handed tablet players, which will probably be the majority of people playing your map.

05:00:579 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - Now, if you want to pull this off, you can't do it like this. You have a few options. You can ctrl + G 05:00:579 (1) - , which would maintain the continuity of the previous sections while making the last stream a lot easier to hit, but it'll still be at an awkward angle.
Alternatively, you could ctrl G 05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - , but that'd result in an antijump. It does play better for me than the current pattern but not everybody likes those, so that's up to you.
You could also rearrange the stream, in a way that makes them flow better while maintaining the current pattern's tonal crescendo, which is actually really awesome about that part, like so http://puu.sh/dG82s.png

Lastly, you could make the stream grow exponentially. This would even further accentuate the crescendo of the melody while also making it more playable. What I mean is something like this http://puu.sh/dG8rT.png, though whether they'll all be NC'd or not is up to you. Personally, I find this the best option, but I still wanted to give you other ones in case you don't like this.

Hitsounds
Your hitsounding is awesome, but soft-hitnormal.wav is too low a volume and blends too well with the music. Consider making the sample stand out more.
Other than that, no complaints. Great work. Seriously.

Really hope this helps you out, HW. Sorry if it might be a little sloppy, it was late at night when I did the mod. Good luck ranking this, it's a great map. Really.
I've saved the modded version so if there's any questions you have about patterns just PM me about them.

Note: Rereading this mod I think the NC's were a pretty confusing way of showing what I meant, so, sorry about that. Was trying something new but it didn't work out I guess.
Last edited by Nyxa , edited 1 time in total.
Mint
1,611 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint
I finally get a chance to mod your map >w<

Tess wrote:

Is there a reason you changed from Mysterious Hymn to Higan Torrent? I personally liked Mysterious Hymn a looot more. I hope you'll change it back but it's up to you of course.

:idea: General


* Not unrankable; There are like really really really small delays in some of your hitsounds, that people'll probably never even notice them (1 to 3ms of delay), but if you';re interested you can download them without delay here :3
* drum-hitfinish.wav - http://puu.sh/dK2eM/817dff39a8.wav
* drum-hitwhistle2.wav - http://puu.sh/dK2cw/48b54cd537.wav
* soft-hitfinish2.wav - http://puu.sh/dK23J/906812e2d4.wav
* soft-hitwhistle.wav - http://puu.sh/dK200/b59a07833d.wav

Higan Torrent


* 00:16:186 (1) - Remove whistle here? There's absolutely no extra (bass) instrument it can go with and the piano sound is the same as 00:09:596 (2,1,2,1,1,2,3) -
* 00:19:307 (2) - Add a whistle on the slider end here, or delete the ones at 00:20:694 (2) - (literally the same sound)
and 00:21:214 (2) - (same sound + piano, but you don't put whistles on the piano in your whole map..)
* 00:25:029 (15) - Uhmm.. can you tell me why you put a whistle here? Since this one and 00:24:335 (7) - are very different from each other ._. - because if you follow the soft drum sound, you should put ones at 00:25:377 (3) - and 00:26:417 (15) - 00:26:764 (2) - etc....
* 00:27:284 (1) - Remove whistle on the second repeat? There's no extra piano sound like 00:27:977 (1) -
* 00:29:885 (7) - Did you miss something here ? Same sound as 00:25:723 (7) - only you don't need the finish since there's no drum here.
* 00:30:753 (1) - Add whistle? I think you missed this one :3
* 00:32:660 (5) - Add whistle on the head? Like 00:33:353 (3) -
* 00:34:047 (4) - Head could also use a whistle.
* 00:35:433 (7) - Missing hitsound.
* 00:40:983 (7) - ^ (unless intentional, wont mention anymore)
* 00:36:820 (7) - Missing whistle?
* 00:37:167 (11) - Delete whistle, only bass sound here.
* 00:40:983 (7) - ^
* 00:41:850 (1) - Piano is present here as well, add whistle along with the finish, like 00:40:463 (1) - ?
* 00:42:371 (7) - ^
* 00:57:457 (1,2) - A distance around 0.95x would be better here imo, so it's consistent with 01:00:405 (2,3) -
* 01:01:966 (1,2,3,4) - Maybe it's just me, but at this part of the song I can't hear anything on the blue ticks >_>
* 01:06:821 (1) - Use normal additions here with a clap? Would give the same effect as 01:13:758 (1) -
* 02:24:509 (1) - ^
* 01:12:198 (2) - The multi-repeat here is not good imo, skipping the downbeat with 1/4 rhythms like these should be avoided, because they confuse the player and they don't really make sense. I highly recommend to just split these up into 1/4 sliders, or try to use something like 01:10:636 (3) - where it doesn't land on the downbeat.
* 02:29:886 (2) - ^
* 01:11:330 (3) - It seems that you only put claps, when there's a clap sound + high vocal note, like 01:13:411 (3) - . That's also the case here, so why not put a clap here?
* 01:12:718 (2) - ^
* 01:47:573 (7) - Missing whistle again (im going to stop here ;_;)
* 01:54:943 (12,13) - Meh, I wouldn't add hitsounds here, like 04:17:660 (10,11,12) - , but if you do want to keep it, consider removing the clap at (12). Nothing in the song itself and it sounds spammed.
* 01:56:764 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Really really nazi, but could you move this until 01:57:977 (8) - is in the middle of the circle at 01:58:671 (7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - ?
* 02:00:492 (12) - Shouldn't the clap be on the next note? The music is stronger there o_o
* 02:01:532 (8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - Shape is a bit 'meh' to me sorry ;_;, try this?
* 02:24:509 (1) - Add whistle on the slider end for the drum, like 01:06:821 (1) - ?
* 02:46:879 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - i love you <3
* 03:21:388 (1,2,3) - The jump should be at (2,3) imo, because the clap is at (3). Just like 03:24:162 (2,3,1) -
* 03:22:775 (1,2,3) - ^
* 03:26:937 (1,2,3) - ^ etc...
* 04:03:006 (1,2,3) - What? This is way too close imo, try spacing 0.3/0.4x like 04:01:619 (1,2,3) -
* 04:07:428 (4) - Add finish here? For the finish-clap kind of rhythm that's also present at 00:25:463 (4,5) - and 01:43:151 (4,5) -
* 04:09:249 (9) - Well, the vocals ('re') are the strongest here, so the sharp turn should be here imo.
* 04:21:560 (7) - ^
* 04:24:335 (7) - ^
* 04:45:145 (7) - ^
* 04:27:110 (4) - NC here to indicate DS change of the stream? You did have it at for example 00:45:145 (1,2,3,4,5) -

Can't play it, but it's beautiful *_*

Good luck ~
pw384
Beatmap Nominator
2,303 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
just pass by and I think I can help with the rerank.

_______________________________________


mod info:
Black: Suggestions.
Bule: Emphasis suggestions.
Red: Unrankable stuffs. Must be fixed.


[HIGAN TORRENT]
  1. 02:59:191 (1,2) - You can make a better blanket here ((1)'s tail and (2)'s path), just like how you do 03:04:740 (1,2) -
  2. 04:03:006 (1,2,3,4,5) - I've tried mapping such a pattern for some times but I don't think it looks good (and the pattern won't let the part be more joyful to play bcz a player don't need to move his/her cursor to hit 1,2,3,4)
  3. 04:25:116 (16,1) - it will be frustrating for the player to break here lol
  4. 05:00:925 (2,3,4,5,1) - 总感觉有点玩过头了

_______________________________________



Agree.
[quote="captin1"]
unfortunate that this is the reality of the QAT now, that they believe they can make subjective unranks for "map quality" without any attempt at improving the map because they believe their definition of "quality" is more important than the BATs involved in ranking the map

I personally don't have much of an opinion on the map one way or the other, but the simple fact that this was unqualified on such a weak concept just disappoints me

Personal opinions: (I am sorry if you find it hard to read it bcz of my bad English)

I think the map introduced to a new concept of mapping style. In this case, we cannot judge the map's quality with the common point of view. So I don't expect to hear words related to #osumapping2015. It hurts the mapper, as well as the modders, and it just shows one's disrespect to the mapper and rudeness.
Streams are fine bcz of the song itself. Though 5-minute stream party may be tiring but it is fine after all bcz the map is overall challenging. And that's why I find no overmapping in the map.
Since the map breaks no ranking criteria and it is unranked due to individual opinions (maybe the different understandings of QUALITY), I just don't agree with the disapproval. But on the other hand, I hope that people can get together to understand each other better through the unranking process (but not a drama). And the map deserves an approval after all.
We don't always need so-called high-quality maps but maps for playing. Products serve for use, but not for appreciation, and so do beatmaps.

Please give the map a try. Thank you. :)

Good luck
如果这图rerank不了我的L还怎么办啊QuQ
Phos-
773 posts
Joined December 2012
Phos-
Hi, mod here~ If it's not very useful, then it's because this map is pretty much ready for re-rank.

[Higan Torrent]
  1. 00:27:110 (2,1) - The end of slider (2) should be blanketed a bit better.
  2. 00:52:255 (3,1) - tbh, I found this jump a bit confusing, especially from how you've spaced most of the other notes in this series of patterns.
  3. 01:59:277 (14,15) - imo the flow is a bit bad, you're following the stream like you usually would, and then suddenly you have to curve 90° in order to get a 300 on the slider. It would play better if you fixed this.
  4. 03:06:128 (2,1) - Personally, I don't like how these sliders are nearly touching. I don't like how it looks, and it's inconsistent; a larger portion is overlapped where the slider-ends are, if you look closely.
  5. 03:13:064 (1) - You should adjust this slider so that the first red slider node is at 03:13:758 -. This way, the slider-ball and the players cursor will change direction on the beat, making the slider feel better rhythm wise.
  6. 04:25:116 (16,1) -Like I said for 01:59:277 (14,15) -, flow is bad because the cursor has to make a sharp turn, and at speeds like this, it won't play well.
Well that's it from me. This map is very unique, creative, and well done. It uses streams in a way where it is very hard, but at the same time they go with the music and are very enjoyable to play. I think this deserves to be re-ranked, so I shot a star :3

Good luck!
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
Since everybody seems to want me to make a statement on this map, here it goes:

As always, I feel HW is doing a decent job at identifying at which parts in the song they need to stress the music (speaking pressurewise) - however, as also happens a lot, this stressing and pressuring of the song and map appears to mostly happen due to one thing: (theoretically) large spacing.

I'll now attempt to go over the issues I have with this map - mind you, this is not a full post or an actual mod, it's merely brushing over the reoccuring and elemental issues that I see within this (and other) map(-s) and deem to be necessary to address.


spacing / leniency issues



Now, spacing is important, very important even, but there's issues that come with this: firstly, a lot of it is very inconsistent and secondly, it is very deceptive - not deceptive in terms of "oh this is a combobreak" but deceptive as in, it looks like more than it is. A lot of this is due to slider leniency not being used "correctly" (just respecting the fact that a player will leave a slider early/not follow it far along it's way if they can do so unpunished) a lot of the time, which I find to be really sad because it ends up in the map being played entirely differently from how it is actually mapped.

A few examples of this would be 02:39:769 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - / 02:41:157 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - and a lot of similar patterns and passages throughout the map that really end up taxing and costing it for me. Mind you, this is me, and I'm just trying to make you see my points - therefore, adding a few boxes below this to compare what these patterns in question are actually mapped/presumably intended to be played as (green) versus how they are presumably going to be played in a more realistically efficient way, which is what high rank players - the main audience of this map - are going to do, most likely (red/orange) vs the extreme example of snapping (black).



Demonstrations of slider leniency resulting in very different playing angles than what the map's aesthetics suggest:

02:39:769 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -




02:41:157 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -






osu!hitobject usage / active-passive hitsounding



A lot of times within this map, specifically at the start, you end up with sliders starting on a weak beat (clap, something in the background) and ending in something that is much more pressured in song and hitsounding, a main beat so to speak. Examples for this would be 00:14:452 (2) - / 00:17:226 (2) - and many others. This is fairly inconsistent with how osu!objects (in this case, sliders) play and it sends mixed signals to the player, and to those who actually wish to click to the main rhythms of the song, it's fairly offputting - you want to try and pressure/click the same beats that you put strong hitsounds on, otherwise it will confuse those who want to go with what is in the main layer. There are a lot of occurances of this throughout the map and I (and others) would not mind helping out in spotting and working around them if you would so want to do that. This is not so much a personal thing because it's actually directly related to the song and hitsounding, so it's something that should definitely be considered.


Also, similarly to this, you have a lot of sliders start and end on the same type of beat - you see, this makes sense from a standpoint of "yeah, a slider covers two hitsounds and since these two sounds are part of the same object, they belong together", but sadly that is not how it's played and executed. A slider is clicked once, that's it - only the first beat gets an active bit of emphasis, and you should try to work around this, from a gameplay related standpoint. Examples for this would be 00:03:006 (1) - / 00:05:781 (2) - / 00:07:168 (1) - (though this one not as much since it starts a new soundpattern) / 00:08:555 (1) - (actually worse since at 00:09:076, the traditional patterning of this part of the song is broken and this beat is much more high-pitched and put in the foreground than the previous ones) / 00:11:330 (1) - and many more thereafter. Again, you'd get help with this and any other part about this map if you so chose to work on and around it.


I'm not going to go down on everything just now since I would like to have the mapper reply first and see whether they're willing to work on it on a larger scale, but in any case, I'm open for conversation and counselling about all types of issues that might or might not be coming up, be they related to reranking, the map in general or anything really.

No, this is not a flame, this is criticism aimed at improving this specific map's quality and making it the best it could be rather than leaving it as a rather unpolished draft of it's actual potential. Please do not take this the wrong way - thank you.


For further elaboration on these issues and more, feel free to PM me or visit this thread: t/239778/
Lally
3,176 posts
Joined December 2011
Lally
oh well not my kind of map but nice ending o3o have a star
Xantaria
274 posts
Joined July 2013
Xantaria
Jenny deserves more Kudosu. Probably like 200+ ... just for that single post ofc.
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings
wow, too much mod words, and i don't think i care this map that much like u guys did here now... lol, just give simple reply here as well:

just mention what i've changed here, don't mind plz. if i don't reply ones of ur mods, that means my reply will be always like "reject coz i think the current stuff is totally ok to the song, me and rc, and also in my mind, ur suggestion is not better than my work done there.".

to tess
1. reason to change diff name: avoid some unnecessary guess to so called "related to mapper" against rc.
2. 00:25:203 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - i totally agree and u r absolutely good modder to me, changed.
3. i suggest u use my map's custom combo color.
to appleeaterx
1. all hs works r done in a general system, it's perfect to me now.
to 384059043
1. all rejected.
to Fluttershy03
1. this reply is to all osu users: when jumps' big enough, there's no flow anymore.
2. this reply is to all osu users: sharp turning in stream can be appeared at any note, and all of them can play well and fit the music by different sense.
3. all rejected.
to Jenny
1. i will never agree that various patterns can be regarded as the only high quality, so i will never change my mind to do the opposite in this map.
2. all rejected, for now.

right or wrong, use rc to tell me.

good or bad, choose by urself, i don't care.

let's see if the maps' dead coz more like "i don't like this map" than "it against the rules". maybe to me, a map fit rc will never get ranked.

next time will be my last time to check this map, i'll try my luck to ask some bat to take care of this.

thx for modding!
fanzhen0019
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
1,724 posts
Joined July 2010
fanzhen0019
爷爷啊 不知道说啥了不过这还真是你的作风

uh, take my word for it. once HW believes her mind in her brain, no one is able to destroy it.
another concept i want to state is, whatever players behave DO make no sense to mappers. mappers will never give up just because you said a word "NO". you can vote 1, delete the map or tell others the map is bad, but these things you have done will not stop these shit maps appearing again and again.

oh btw what i typed above is not useful for HW.



HW you monster
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The sole fact that you disregard the issues filed by the Quality Assurance Team as "this is just an opinion" makes me believe, that you forgot most portions of the very nice conversation we two once had.

You may think that "everyone has a different opinion", this is totally fine. But please consider, osu! is an online-game, moderated and maintained by the osu! staff. A "ranked beatmap" is no more and no less than a beatmap that is considered as "good to go by the osu!staff and therefore labeled as official osu! beatmap, granting it full online features and being counted into our official ranking algorithms". The QAT belongs to this staff. The QAT is entitled to decide, whether or not a beatmap should or should not be part of the "official osu! beatmaps". You are free to decide on your own, if you want to join these bunch of "official beatmaps" or not. But if you want to join them, you must meet our very subjective criteria of what is good and what not.
The QAT is entitled by the higher osu! staff to decide on their very own degree on that.

You all take this entire "joining the ranks of osu!'s official beatmap roster" for granted, even tho it's a privilege. It is fairly easy to join if you please the simple quality standards we hold up here, but you also risk to not join this ranks if you overdo it (according to this Disqualification post, this is the case).

As MilhioreF said, you are still free to map and do whatever you want. Poop all the circles across the playfield, go for it! But if we do not want this beatmaps to count into our official ranking algorithms, because we consider them as not "good enough", you have to deal with it.

You can stop arguing about what is subjective, what is objective, what is intersubjective and what would the map may look like if mapped by sprosive. That doesn't really matter at all. The Ranking Criteria itself is a formal guideline of "fundamental rules" that MUST be hold in in all circumstances. Everything else is on a "case by case" basis. This does NOT MEAN that mapping must ONLY obey the RC and nothing else. You still must map reasonable.

I looked on this map - and top tier players may like it, but as TicClick stated, this is NOT what we expect to join our official osu! rankings yet. It is unpolished, it is overdone, the music is not complimenting the map sufficiently (no one said, it must be a 1:1 copy of the music, but the degree it is syncing and pleasing the music is subpar).

And Hollow Wings, we discussed that already. You seem to forget partially that this is a game, after all. And I do not know who you let testplay, but I suggest you to find more testplayers, especially ones that do not run around your skirt and yell "oooh, HW-sama, you do so great", because that's how many people here talk. They lack of serious criticism.

If you fail to map beatmaps reasonably and stop trying to squeeze an abomination chimera of the big black, freedom dive and strange program on a 173bpm e-guitaresque song, where every normal person would use like 45% of the sum of all hitobjects used here instead, please do not try to get them approved - or at least don't be so pissed and butthurt about it, if you can not make it into the "Official osu! beatmaps".

If you continue to ignore this advise, this beatmap will be nuked. I won't repeat myself again.

Locked for now. PM me if you want to reply to this.

And please stop using "coz" "u" and "plz". Your English is already very difficult to read. Using fancy, pseudo-fluent abbreviations makes it look stupid. Just an advise from friend to friend :C
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Unlocked upon request by Hollow Wings. Let's see how it goes. I wish you good luck, HW! Please keep my words in mind that are written before.
Len
Beatmap Nominator
2,836 posts
Joined June 2012
Len
wo
Akiyama Mizuki
2,710 posts
Joined March 2009
Akiyama Mizuki
Wow.
DoKito
600 posts
Joined October 2010
DoKito
oooh, HW-sama, you do so great
Mwallx
223 posts
Joined April 2014
Mwallx
oooh, HW-sama, you did so great :O
Bladesu
90 posts
Joined October 2014
Bladesu
ihopethisgetsrankedsoicanplaythisonhalftime.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
Yay
Chaoslitz
Elite Mapper / Elite Storyboarder
2,325 posts
Joined November 2013
Chaoslitz
nice
bibilicu
3,578 posts
Joined October 2013
bibilicu
o/ nice buddy
OMG 400th post of mine xD !
Kurano
3 posts
Joined December 2014
Kurano
nice map , and finally hope it can be ranked
HW加油
Birdy
5,755 posts
Joined April 2011
Birdy
Just.
GAMI
582 posts
Joined February 2014
GAMI
gambatte HW :D
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

RMaltsaar wrote:

ihopethisgetsrankedsoicanplaythisonhalftime.
Gogogogogogo
Hemmi
98 posts
Joined May 2013
Hemmi
Please HW, don't let this map be graved, do it for the top 1%'s sake :(
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
If you rank this and the CTB mapset at the same time... oh my god it will be so perfect, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/253969

ctb mapset is already bubble tho D:
BoberOfDarkness
1,062 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness

Storm- wrote:

If you rank this and the CTB mapset at the same time... oh my god it will be so perfect, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/253969

ctb mapset is already bubble tho D:
Qualified*

I hope that your map will be too soon!
Athrun
1,049 posts
Joined December 2013
Athrun
hope!!
Hisoka
89 posts
Joined March 2013
Hisoka
This Beatmap is SO great :D Even if I cant play it above 75% :D
murasakikana
7 posts
Joined April 2014
murasakikana
我不会mod，我的想法你看看就好。

我一直认为你是一个“灵魂型”mapper因为，你有时候能把一首歌的aura给弄到map中去。这一点不得不服。
但是这一次，我觉得还是有些过火了。

在整体上，还是一如既往的灵魂风格，特别是最后的长滑条，很有小町武弄镰刀的架势
以及大跳，恩？我也不知道那是什么似乎是大型圆周式连打？总之，看着auto打，或者看那几个顶尖玩家的replay十分感动。

我前面说了我不会mod，但是根据我学到的知识，以及玩这个游戏体会到的，我觉得那个173大跳（？）稍稍修改一下，最大的问题也就解决了。
下面是真正的建议


173大跳，其实在osu中并不存在。那肯定是把这一串当连打来打。但是根本不存在这样的连打：
1. 右手移动时，顺时针比逆时针要顺畅。可以看到map中逆时针占多数。
2. 玩家在处理这样的情形时，它是可以预读到第5个note的。移动应该是1-->5这样。（但是不是弹道运动）因此移动速度符合拾取运动规律，
note间距应是：0----0.15～0.2-----0.5-----0.8～0.85----1。每0.25下note很容易在第二个就miss。
3. 弧度问题。手部做圆周运动虽容易，而且镰刀弧线圆形也更酷，但是你也为玩家想想吧，1----5读图方式注定运动曲线越直越好。我觉得，稍微摆一个镰刀弧线就行了。不用太直也别太弯。

完了 :)
Yales
826 posts
Joined February 2013
Yales

Loctav wrote:

Unlocked upon request by Hollow Wings. Let's see how it goes. I wish you good luck, HW! Please keep my words in mind that are written before.
It seems that "osu!" doesn't want this map, but the community wants it... so what now?
Anxient
1,573 posts
Joined June 2014
Anxient

Yales wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Unlocked upon request by Hollow Wings. Let's see how it goes. I wish you good luck, HW! Please keep my words in mind that are written before.
It seems that "osu!" doesn't want this map, but the community wants it... so what now?
then potato. .-. that's what happens. well, unless HW revives this map, this isn't going anywhere .-.
Artorias_DELETED
Artorias_DELETED


go rank!
Depths
681 posts
Joined January 2014
Depths
I hope this mod helps, I really enjoy this map and hope to see it revived

Higan Torrent

Make the OD, 9 (6.7 star map), with the amount of streams and the star difficulty I think OD9 would be best fit for this.

00:23:469 (1) - overlay on top of 00:22:949 (1) - its flow better.

00:31:879 (14) - remove this note and make 00:31:966 (15) - repeat so that you have more flow and preps you for 00:32:139 (1) -

00:37:428 (14) - ^ same as before, for consistency and flow .

00:52:949 (1) - repeat slider feels a bit out of place, and you dont seem to use it again in this section, so also feels a bit inconsistent. it follows the rhythm but plays inconsistently.

01:01:966 (1,2,3,4,5) - random burst here, not really following anything.

01:07:862 (2) - place under tail of 01:06:821 (1) - to emphasize it?

01:14:278 (1) - no need for NC here, these are readable without it.
01:14:972 (1) - ^
01:15:665 (1) - ^^

01:22:081 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I feel like you could make this flow better, I would say stack the head of 6 with the head of 3, then move 7-8 so 8 is stacked with 01:21:475 (10) - http://puu.sh/gF2r2/3d9df02c07.jpg

01:35:954 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - you do this later on as well, as I mentioned there, it feels really forced to play and mapped more for the difficulty factor.

02:40:463 (5,6,7,8) - make this mirror 02:39:769 (1,2,3,4) -

02:42:544 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - I believe you're mapping to the vocal here? maybe make the stream look more like this http://puu.sh/gEU6J/4e5c474d6a.jpg ? the arch at 8 shows the rise in the pitch of the vocal.

02:51:908 (7,8) - ctl+g to make it the same as 02:50:868 (1,2,3,4) - there is really no justification to make it different than before.

from here 02:53:642 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - to 02:57:631 (15) - it doesn't flow properly to me, seems mapped for difficulty more. the motion of reaching back feels forced.

02:59:191 (1) - to 03:18:613 (3) - I feel like mapping the flute is more important here.

03:00:579 (2) - blanket the tail here.

03:06:128 (2) - ^^

03:41:331 (4,5,6,7,8,9) - I hear what your mapping to, and you start the stream a bit late start here 03:41:157 (3) - because I hear it starting on the blue tic after 03:41:157 (3) - so I would add a note at 03:41:243 .

03:43:584 (1,2,3) - 03:43:931 (4,5,6) - switch the position of these so put 03:43:584 (1,2,3) - where 03:43:931 (4,5,6) is and so forth, I didnt feel much flow between 03:43:584 (1,2,3) and 03:43:931 (4,5,6). compared to the inconsistent spacing of 03:44:451 (9) - to 03:44:625 (10) - so by doing it adds consistent spacing.
Another thing 03:43:584 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - stresses a syllable and 03:44:278 (7,8,9,10,11,12) - stresses another.

03:46:359 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ok here the spacing is weird and I feel like you could map it more like this http://puu.sh/gEYKv/83ebae817d.jpg I mapped it like this http://puu.sh/gEYMw/96d017404a.jpg the circular flow between 4 5 and 1 is extremely nice to play and looks good imo

03:58:845 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the spacing throughout here is really inconsistent, make the change in spacing more consistent.

04:03:006 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - increase the spacing here, I feel like you're under stressing this part when it should be the climax.

04:17:920 (13,14,15) - I have no problem with the stack, but when you do it feels inconsistent, you do it on 13 here 04:17:920 (13,14,15) - the you do it here at the NC , which is kinda weird, so more it to here 04:19:307 (13) - to keep it consistent.

04:25:203 (1) - the position here after 04:25:116 (16) - feels really bad, you could make this flow better.

04:57:110 (1,2) - ctl+g both of these, circular flow.
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings
revived.

murasakikana wrote:

我不会mod，我的想法你看看就好。

我一直认为你是一个“灵魂型”mapper因为，你有时候能把一首歌的aura给弄到map中去。这一点不得不服。
但是这一次，我觉得还是有些过火了。

在整体上，还是一如既往的灵魂风格，特别是最后的长滑条，很有小町武弄镰刀的架势
以及大跳，恩？我也不知道那是什么似乎是大型圆周式连打？总之，看着auto打，或者看那几个顶尖玩家的replay十分感动。

我前面说了我不会mod，但是根据我学到的知识，以及玩这个游戏体会到的，我觉得那个173大跳（？）稍稍修改一下，最大的问题也就解决了。
下面是真正的建议


173大跳，其实在osu中并不存在。那肯定是把这一串当连打来打。但是根本不存在这样的连打： ←已经展现在你眼前的东西，你居然说不存在？这是我对你这个post所有想说的话。

1. 右手移动时，顺时针比逆时针要顺畅。可以看到map中逆时针占多数。
2. 玩家在处理这样的情形时，它是可以预读到第5个note的。移动应该是1-->5这样。（但是不是弹道运动）因此移动速度符合拾取运动规律，
note间距应是：0----0.15～0.2-----0.5-----0.8～0.85----1。每0.25下note很容易在第二个就miss。
3. 弧度问题。手部做圆周运动虽容易，而且镰刀弧线圆形也更酷，但是你也为玩家想想吧，1----5读图方式注定运动曲线越直越好。我觉得，稍微摆一个镰刀弧线就行了。不用太直也别太弯。

完了 :)

Its Depths wrote:

I hope this mod helps, I really enjoy this map and hope to see it revived

Higan Torrent

Make the OD, 9 (6.7 star map), with the amount of streams and the star difficulty I think OD9 would be best fit for this. od9 is too high for a bpm173 map imo. this is not as heated as some crazy beat songs with heavy drum or base track in it, so od8 can be the best.

00:23:469 (1) - overlay on top of 00:22:949 (1) - its flow better. thou it's a good idea, organizations locked stuffs' places, and current version is fine as well, so let it be like this.

00:31:879 (14) - remove this note and make 00:31:966 (15) - repeat so that you have more flow and preps you for 00:32:139 (1) - i don't agree with this with both rhythm level and even with my original hs tracks' settings. main beat in the song itself is at 00:31:791 (13) - , if there's a repeating slider, then it should be started there imo. but i wanna just keep those tapping objs for consistent of rhythm style to players, and hs system's already completed, so i think this can be kept.

00:37:428 (14) - ^ same as before, for consistency and flow . ^

00:52:949 (1) - repeat slider feels a bit out of place, and you dont seem to use it again in this section, so also feels a bit inconsistent. it follows the rhythm but plays inconsistently. i know it's not as the previous one following the vocal track as well, but it's also some kind of way expressing the base track. and indeed i set nearly all of objs following the drum and base, leaving vocal with free style.

01:01:966 (1,2,3,4,5) - random burst here, not really following anything. right, changed rhythm and composing here. i think i heard things wrong when i map this part before.

01:07:862 (2) - place under tail of 01:06:821 (1) - to emphasize it? current version can emphasize it better imo.

01:14:278 (1) - no need for NC here, these are readable without it. well, i think they're necessary, for they're not that long sliders and stacked end to head.
01:14:972 (1) - ^
01:15:665 (1) - ^^

01:22:081 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I feel like you could make this flow better, I would say stack the head of 6 with the head of 3, then move 7-8 so 8 is stacked with 01:21:475 (10) - http://puu.sh/gF2r2/3d9df02c07.jpg i've thought about that part a lot as well, but at last i choose not change here. for i lower ds at 01:22:602 (4,5) - with less emotion in vocal, which current version with stack stuff can express much more.

01:35:954 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - you do this later on as well, as I mentioned there, it feels really forced to play and mapped more for the difficulty factor. no, it's not. it's just common pattern.

02:40:463 (5,6,7,8) - make this mirror 02:39:769 (1,2,3,4) - nope. i hate symm and regular structure. i'll use or not use those kind of patterns on purpose, here i choose no. (thou i mapped symm style maps as well, some kind of being on purpose, too.

02:42:544 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - I believe you're mapping to the vocal here? maybe make the stream look more like this http://puu.sh/gEU6J/4e5c474d6a.jpg ? the arch at 8 shows the rise in the pitch of the vocal. yeah they're expressing vocal in some kind of level, but here i just wanna them in fluent line, like what i did at 02:43:931 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - and the previous kiai.

02:51:908 (7,8) - ctl+g to make it the same as 02:50:868 (1,2,3,4) - there is really no justification to make it different than before. haha nope for the emotion shifting in vocal.

from here 02:53:642 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - to 02:57:631 (15) - it doesn't flow properly to me, seems mapped for difficulty more. the motion of reaching back feels forced. believe it or not, if i changed in another style with those streams, the whole pattern will be more difficult to play. reaching back of that jumping can help you read and aim the different streams better than some fluent flow style or shorter ds jump here. you can try it and maybe the good ones in your mind by yourself in testing, if you are able to do that.

02:59:191 (1) - to 03:18:613 (3) - I feel like mapping the flute is more important here. too quiet this part is, so i don't think setting too much tapping objs here's a good idea.

03:00:579 (2) - blanket the tail here. sure, changed.

03:06:128 (2) - ^^ i'll skip this with locked organization.

03:41:331 (4,5,6,7,8,9) - I hear what your mapping to, and you start the stream a bit late start here 03:41:157 (3) - because I hear it starting on the blue tic after 03:41:157 (3) - so I would add a note at 03:41:243 . i think that beat's too quiet to be heard, thou it really exists. this part i wanna mainly follow those drum track because it's so special, missing this one can be still fine.

03:43:584 (1,2,3) - 03:43:931 (4,5,6) - switch the position of these so put 03:43:584 (1,2,3) - where 03:43:931 (4,5,6) is and so forth, I didnt feel much flow between 03:43:584 (1,2,3) and 03:43:931 (4,5,6). compared to the inconsistent spacing of 03:44:451 (9) - to 03:44:625 (10) - so by doing it adds consistent spacing.
Another thing 03:43:584 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - stresses a syllable and 03:44:278 (7,8,9,10,11,12) - stresses another. lol, this kiai is nearly full screen jumpings, so there's no flow anymore. so i just put stuffs where they can be easily read and aimed, you can take those patterns really easy imo.

03:46:359 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - ok here the spacing is weird and I feel like you could map it more like this http://puu.sh/gEYKv/83ebae817d.jpg I mapped it like this http://puu.sh/gEYMw/96d017404a.jpg the circular flow between 4 5 and 1 is extremely nice to play and looks good imo sry but they are just patterns. your style is good in that way, i'm sure, but i'll insist what i've done here.

03:58:845 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the spacing throughout here is really inconsistent, make the change in spacing more consistent. i won't set consistent spacing when they're following inconsistent song track.

04:03:006 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - increase the spacing here, I feel like you're under stressing this part when it should be the climax. the current stream style is the perfect one i wanna express the music here.

04:17:920 (13,14,15) - I have no problem with the stack, but when you do it feels inconsistent, you do it on 13 here 04:17:920 (13,14,15) - the you do it here at the NC , which is kinda weird, so more it to here 04:19:307 (13) - to keep it consistent. same as above 2.

04:25:203 (1) - the position here after 04:25:116 (16) - feels really bad, you could make this flow better. i agree, changed the whole pattern.

04:57:110 (1,2) - ctl+g both of these, circular flow. nope, fluent flow's not good here.
discussed with loctav, reduced some messed up patterns.

thanks for modding!
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Alright, after modding this map, I believe this is ready again.

We fixed:
  1. Messed up repeater
  2. Inaudible hitsounds
  3. Several things concerning the flow
Good luck!
ac8129464363
1,566 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363
holy

shit
Xinely
5,014 posts
Joined April 2012
Xinely

deetz wrote:

holy

shit
Nathan
2,161 posts
Joined August 2014
Nathan
o.o
Arphimigon
1,681 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Oh god...
...yes!
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
ultrasupermegahype
Depths
681 posts
Joined January 2014
Depths
My body is ready
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
Get hype!
Iceskulls
1,612 posts
Joined February 2012
Iceskulls
cool
Koiyuki
Beatmap Nominator
2,572 posts
Joined March 2013
Koiyuki
Thanks Irreversible making me dare to do this again.
Bubble #2
Karen
2,873 posts
Joined August 2013
Karen
hype
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