18:44 Kurosanyan: Ono, could I quickly discuss taiko mapping guidelines with you?
18:44 Kurosanyan: Oh okay
19:02 OnosakiHito: What's up?
19:02 Kurosanyan: Just want to know your point of view about patterns like d d k kkd d k in Muzukashii
19:03 Kurosanyan: Because I always get complains about it and wonder if I should give up or be stubborn.
19:03 Kurosanyan: Like "kkd = oni"
19:06 OnosakiHito: Best would be to keep these patterns out of Muzukashii. I don't know how you map, but in most cases people tend to make Muzukashii way harder as they supposed to be, even without these patterns. And adding such patterns in Muzukashii are often one of the reasons to disqualify them imidiatelly. Yes, it does sometimes happen, that Muzus with oox are not getting disqualified - but only because,
19:06 OnosakiHito: in some cases they are not overused or bounded with too many patterns.
19:06 OnosakiHito: The guide says it is fine, indeed. But it depends a lot of the song and map itself.
19:07 OnosakiHito: The harder patterns become (here: having oox), the less patterns you should bound to each other. In other words: The harder the more breaks are requierd.
19:08 Kurosanyan: Most the time, it's patterns like d d k kkd d k with 1/1 breaks
19:09 Kurosanyan: Anyway, it's just that I dislike the huge gap between Oni and Muzukashii and don't want to make an Inner for every single mapset.
19:09 OnosakiHito: kkd is even more tricky than ddk, since you have to hit them in an "unusual"(can't explain it that well like motherlanguage speakers) way than the dons.
19:10 Kurosanyan: Yes I know, I remember when I started taiko
19:10 OnosakiHito: Well, you will have to do it. Nevermind for what reason. Sounds harsh I guess. But we want to see difficulties which are fair to their lable. If it requiers another Inner, it can just mean that either
19:10 OnosakiHito: the spread is not good, or the already existing Oni is too hard.
19:10 OnosakiHito: Second guess, is the most common one.
19:11 OnosakiHito: And kills every map / ste imidiatelly.
19:11 OnosakiHito: set*
19:12 OnosakiHito: In case you are still unsure about what I said and might not understand the exact reason behind this idea, I will add that lower players,
19:12 Kurosanyan: Well, I'll obviously to removes the ones on my 200bpm map then.
19:12 Kurosanyan: have to*
19:13 OnosakiHito: aren't able to play Muzukashii with "hard" patterns which are bounded together. I tested it already several times in real life and got confirmation from it by other experienced guys or staff members.
19:13 OnosakiHito: 200 bpm
19:13 OnosakiHito: lol
19:13 OnosakiHito: Yeah. Remove these.
19:14 Kurosanyan: The thing is, lots of players complain that Muzukashii is too easy and Oni too hard.
19:14 OnosakiHito: That's what experienced players say, and tbh, I wouldn't trust in that.
19:15 OnosakiHito: Might be harsh as well from my site, but most people have a distorted view of Muzu once they reach a level where they can play Oni well enough.
19:15 Kurosanyan: Experienced players have no trouble with Oni.
19:16 OnosakiHito: That's what I mean. They have no trouble with Oni, hence think, that Muzu is too easy.
19:16 OnosakiHito: One thing is to look at diffs as player, but looking at it as player and mapper gives you a whole new view of a map.
19:17 OnosakiHito: ^ Hm, might be not clear enough. But don't know how else to express my self right now. Actually I'm pretty tiered.
19:18 Kurosanyan: I remember having an awfully hard time starting Oni because of how hard it was compared to Muzukashii.
19:18 OnosakiHito: That means, Oni must be easier. Not Muzukashii.
19:19 Kurosanyan: Probably
19:19 OnosakiHito: Remember: We still have Ura and Inner.
19:19 OnosakiHito: And even so, we can still go up (if the song supports it)
19:19 Kurosanyan: I'll have to start making 3 GD per set then
19:19 OnosakiHito: ?
19:19 Kurosanyan: You should be more clear about Muzukashii on your mapping guide though, since it's a bit confusing.
19:20 OnosakiHito: Oh, that's interesting to know.
19:21 OnosakiHito: Can you tell me what the confusing part is?
19:22 Kurosanyan: Well, I dislike not taking the whole difficulty potential (while not overdoing it of course) of a song, so except on really slow or calm song, I'll have to do Muzu-Oni-Inner instead of just Muzu-Oni
19:23 Kurosanyan: Well for example "Stick to simple 1/4 patterns like ddd/kkk, ddk/kkd and do not overuse them."
19:23 Kurosanyan: That's as if ddd kkk ddk and kkd are the same and are totally fine for any Muzu at any bpm.
19:23 OnosakiHito: That's why we have the "conclusion section". Maybe it's not clear enough?
19:24 OnosakiHito: "It should be noted that the more 1/4 are in use, the more breaks/spaings should appear to give the player the possibility to prepare themself for the upcoming patterns."
19:24 OnosakiHito: And about the M+O+I case, should be something written in the "Taiko-Set" section.
19:25 OnosakiHito: Hm. I see right now the "Taiko-Set" section could use some update, to give possible solutions.
19:25 OnosakiHito: Because, you can solve that "having too many diffs"-problem in an easy way:
19:25 OnosakiHito: Having a bigger spread between the diffs.
19:26 OnosakiHito: Well, "easy" might be oversaid. It requers experience of course.
19:26 Kurosanyan: By breaks, do you mean 2/1 breaks ?
19:26 OnosakiHito: For example. Yeah.
19:26 Kurosanyan: Or leaving the 1/4 alone with 1/1 breaks?
19:27 Kurosanyan: Maybe the easiest way would be to do a quick check on my Muzu and tell me what makes it too hard, if you don't mind
19:28 OnosakiHito: It depends of the diff / map itself. E.g.: You use 1/4. Some 2/1 should appear to "SPLIT" the patterns from each other. 1/1 is in most cases not enough, since it is just a small gap between patterns (considering the amount).
19:30 OnosakiHito: Or e.g.: You map on 1/2 with some ooo 1/4. 2/1 are requiered, so you can split the patterns again and give player some rest moment.
19:30 Kurosanyan: Well, I rarely put any 2/1 break. There's a lot of 1/1 breaks though.
19:30 OnosakiHito: Show me the map.
19:30 *Kurosanyan is editing [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/539318 Kalafina - believe~TV size~ [Kurosanyan's Muzukashii]]
19:32 OnosakiHito: 00:13:483 - Such breaks are good in Muzu.
19:33 OnosakiHito: 00:14:252 - ~ 00:37:906 - Here are some 2/1 or 3/4 breaks requiered. I think I can explain you why:
19:34 OnosakiHito: 1/1 gaps appear pretty often, hence they do not split certain stanzas from each other. From 14sec to 37sec, you could say that all these patterns belong to one section.
19:35 Kurosanyan: Yeah I understood
19:35 OnosakiHito: Just an example: 00:16:656 (15,16,17,18) - When deleting these and changing (14) to a finisher,
19:35 OnosakiHito: it makes clear that this section is over and a new one ( 00:17:329 - ) appears.
19:36 Kurosanyan: I thought about deleting those when you told me about puting a 2/1 break on this part
19:36 OnosakiHito: In Taiko, it is really important to take care of the stanzas, which you see in the timing panel.
19:37 OnosakiHito: Of course, patterns aren't that hard, since they do not alternate so much with the other colour. But since you map in a continues mapping for 22 seconds, it can be already pretty tiering for Muzu/lower players
19:38 OnosakiHito: Next example:
19:39 OnosakiHito: Let's say, the 5plets at 00:16:560 - fit really good to the song, and it wouldn't benefit the map if we delete it. Rather harm it.
19:39 OnosakiHito: If that happens, mapper (in this case you) can have later some break, e.g. somewhere at 00:19:637 -
19:39 OnosakiHito: That would be the previous stanza x2
19:41 OnosakiHito: First example: 1 + 2 + 3 (+ 4) + 1 + 2 + 3 (+ 4) () = breaks / gaps
19:41 OnosakiHito: Second example: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 (+4)
19:41 Kurosanyan: Nah, I feel like putting a break before the K would be wrong, I prefer removing the 5 notes and put a D instead.
19:42 OnosakiHito: But that would mean, that you have -probably- to delete at the second +4 some notes as well.
19:42 OnosakiHito: Else it can happen, that your breaks / gaps are placed odd.
19:43 OnosakiHito: Or you delete every first +4 and third +4 some notes (dunno if you know the music theory, do these +4 make sense to you?).
19:44 OnosakiHito: 00:14:252 - ~ 00:16:945 - First stanza section from [ 1 to +4 ]
19:44 OnosakiHito: 00:17:329 - ~ 00:19:637 - Second stanza section from [ 1 to +4]
19:45 OnosakiHito: and so on
19:46 Kurosanyan: I guess +4 means the 4th white tick of a stanza
19:48 OnosakiHito:
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Music_Theory19:49 Kurosanyan: I'm trying to remake it, then I'll send you the .osz
19:51 OnosakiHito:
http://puu.sh/d6wIp/f996bd5a4c.png19:52 OnosakiHito: Those are the stanzas and how you work in the music theory.
19:53 Kurosanyan: I know
19:54 OnosakiHito: Oh okay. :p
19:54 OnosakiHito: I will wait for your update.
19:54 OnosakiHito: In general you might want to remember one thing, which is -if you ask me- something really important:
19:55 OnosakiHito: You can always make an difficulty easier as it could be. But you should never try to make it harder as it normaly should be.
19:55 Kurosanyan:
http://puu.sh/d6x3N.osz How about this
19:55 OnosakiHito: Keeping this in mind, can help really a lot.
19:58 OnosakiHito: Great!
19:58 OnosakiHito: Yeah, I see right now that you understand the music theory. Guess I didn't had to explain it.
19:59 Kurosanyan: Well, I mapped a lot
19:59 OnosakiHito: Same can be done at 00:41:560 -
19:59 OnosakiHito: deleting such notes
19:59 Kurosanyan: I just have issues mapping easier difficulties in taiko
19:59 *OnosakiHito is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/153886 Pendulum - The Island (MaxNRG Remix)]
19:59 OnosakiHito: uff
19:59 OnosakiHito: Now I know who you are
19:59 OnosakiHito: sorry. lol
19:59 *OnosakiHito is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/150709 ave;new feat. Sakura Saori - Just Be With You (Short Ver.)]
20:00 *OnosakiHito is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/153393 IOSYS - Endless Tewi-ma Park]
20:00 OnosakiHito: and so on
20:00 Kurosanyan: lol
20:00 OnosakiHito: lol
20:00 Kurosanyan: Just Be With You was crap though
20:00 Kurosanyan: Like most of my maps
20:00 OnosakiHito: old maps
20:00 Kurosanyan: I like Tewi a lot though.
20:02 Kurosanyan: About 00:41:560 - , I feel like it isn't really necessary since this part has mostly 1/1 already and 2 consistent 3/4 breaks
20:03 OnosakiHito: That's a "mistake" many people make.
20:03 OnosakiHito: "It's mapped mostly on 1/1"
20:04 OnosakiHito: If you ask me, try to keep this thinking aside. That's why we have many problems with Kantan or Futsuu maps.
20:04 OnosakiHito: People think 1/1 isn't hard, but put in a long period of time, changes everything.
20:05 Kurosanyan: Yes I know already about how breaks work now that you explained, but 4 big break for only a few notes feels like overdoing it here.
20:05 OnosakiHito: Well, at this point it isn't that urgent like before.
20:06 OnosakiHito: But considering this part, it could have been easier. It's a calm one, which is mapped on a Muzukashii.
20:07 OnosakiHito: You used already many alternative 1/2 patterns, so I'm worried right now about the Inner.
20:07 OnosakiHito: Oh wait, there is only an Oni.
20:07 Kurosanyan: 00:53:868 (2) - I should remove this one though
20:08 OnosakiHito: Well, okay. I guess spread problems we don't have here. The M+O+I set was the 200 BPM one. Sorry.
20:08 Kurosanyan: Are there really no issue with this spread ?
20:08 Kurosanyan: I feel like the Oni is way harder.
20:09 OnosakiHito: A spread is considered as one after you mapped a third diff., so you can compare the gap from diff1-diff2 with diff2-diff3. That's a spread. Just to make that clear.
20:09 OnosakiHito: But it's good that you try to make the Oni not too hard, or the other way around.
20:10 OnosakiHito: 00:05:021 -
20:10 OnosakiHito: It's nearly identical witrh Muzukashii.
20:10 OnosakiHito: with*
20:10 Kurosanyan: Well that's basically why I made the Muzukashii too hard lol
20:11 OnosakiHito: In this case it might be not that urgent. But considering the beginning, Muzu could have been much easier here. Want an example how I would do it...?
20:11 OnosakiHito: - Well, then you can make Muzu a bit easier if you think it would be better in this way.
20:11 Kurosanyan: Why not
20:15 OnosakiHito: Muzu: Either
http://puu.sh/d6ymP/5872965413.jpg Monotonically for an pretty easy entrance. Or
http://puu.sh/d6yv5/74d5395057.jpg "copy paste patterns" with rise of notes effect. More alternaiting and possibly interesting for players, yet due to similar patterns easy to play.
20:15 OnosakiHito: hilighed notes in second screen are finishers
20:18 OnosakiHito: I would probably use even less notes.
20:18 OnosakiHito: Considering how I map nowadays.
20:18 OnosakiHito: Oh, I think I have a great example for you.
20:18 *OnosakiHito is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/531959 ginkiha - dawn(ginkiha hardcore remix)]
20:18 OnosakiHito: This Muzukashii.
20:19 Kurosanyan: I like the 2nd suggestion.
20:20 Kurosanyan: Though I feel like d kd d kd dk d kd d k k d instead of d kd d kd k d kd D K d would be better.
20:21 OnosakiHito: Depends of you. I find it good when you have your own ideas.
20:21 OnosakiHito: Shows me, that you are really thinking about what you map.
20:23 Kurosanyan: Of course, if I just followed suggestion without thinking, my maps would basically get destroyed every time.
20:24 Kurosanyan: Your suggestions were really helpful though
20:25 Kurosanyan: Way better than "ddd because kkd is oni" or some suggestion telling me to map on vocals for no reason or even sometimes asking me to put a note where's there's nothing.
20:25 Kurosanyan: Thank you Ono <3