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[New Guideline] About Difficulty Spread

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Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Nobody cares about diff spread x)
But yeah it will be fine if there is an easy diff to balance a set, and which allows the mapper to be "more free" with Normal and Hard diff concerning diff spread. (he could make a harder normal/hard than a traditional one, as i always do)
Hinsvar
osu! Alumni
3,789 posts
Joined December 2011
Hinsvar
I agree with this. Almost, if not just all songs can have an Easy mapped on it. Might as well enforce Easy diffs to be made too, but that's another story. For this, I can see nothing I should oppose (this can really help in making better spreads for maps!), and thus I'll give this a full support. Trying to make a Normal below 2 stars usually might end up making it a little too easy anyway, and it can limit what can you usually use in a >2 star (usual) Normal diff.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy
I'd say it should be re-worded to somewhat like this:

The diff spread should be reasonable. Which means, that you should make your mapset playable for a wide range of players: from beginners to highly-skilled top players.

As I've heard several beginners complained about being unable to actually play some recently ranked/mapped Normal diffs with <2,00 star rating due to high slider velocity/complicated rhythm.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Myxo
Thanks to all of your opinions! I basically agree with what you all have said.

-Bakari- wrote:

I'd say it should be re-worded to somewhat like this:

The diff spread should be reasonable. Which means, that you should make your mapset playable for a wide range of players: from beginners to highly-skilled top players.

As I've heard several beginners complained about being unable to actually play some recently ranked/mapped Normal diffs with <2,00 star rating due to high slider velocity/complicated rhythm.
Hmm, about your rewording. I really want to include that with the over 4.5 stars, because it applies to the mapsets we are talking about in 99% of the cases.
But I'll take something from it and change my wording, thank you <3
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I actually kind of agree. Spreads tend to have giant gaps when it's a NHI set. Enforcing an Easy on sets with harder Insanes almost automatically balances the set.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom
Yeah, NHI sets are kinda unbalanced :S. I also think that the Normals in these sets are far too hard for some new players, even if they are under 2.0 star rating.

Can we just enforce the fact that the easiest diff of a spread should not contain some elements like:

-Stacks
-Short spinners
-Post spinner notes
-Anti-jumps
-1/4
-Repeat sliders with over 1 repeat

And such? These things are often used in normals, but when they're used on the easiest diff it's like throwing a brick at the new players.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom

Krisom wrote:

-Repeat sliders with over 1 repeat
I don't really agree with this one, because repeat sliders with over 1 repeat could be used to avoid polarity issues.
I think you mean 1/2 reversed sliders ?
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy

Krisom wrote:

-1/4
except for low BPM songs, I think you forgot that :P

Krisom wrote:

- Short repeat sliders with over 1 repeat

Krisom wrote:

-Stacks
this is fine if used properly, I think.

Krisom's words can be added as explanation to the guideline. This might help people to improve their E/N diffs a lot.
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
I have to agree there are problems which Desperate mentioned on current maps.

[Insane]s are becoming harder and harder, consisting 1/4 slider jumps for example. To fill the gap, [Hard] has also became intensed by adding jumps or small 1/4 notes. Then mappers strike a problem: the gap between [Normal] and [Hard]. Mappers would increase spacing or sv of [Normal] to make more harder, while keeping the 2.00 star diff, and not map an additional [Easy]. I guess this made you think there should be a guideline to enforce mappers make an [Easy], right?

But the [Normal]s which are made that way can have chances to function nicely as the easiest difficulty.
Whether or not the lowest difficulty of the map is easy enough is something what BATs should judge, and then ask the mapper to add an extra difficulty if the spread can be improved.

Assuming various possibilities, I wouldn't prefer a one size fits all rule.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom
iirc, stacks have NEVER been fine for the easiest diffs. Like, ever.

And low BPM sngs as in "how low?". Because an 80 BPM song with a 1/4 is the same as a 160 BPM sng with a 1/2... ...which is still very hard for the easiest diff.

And yeah, I meant short repeat slider with over one repeat.
Aleks719
osu! Alumni
2,436 posts
Joined May 2010
Aleks719

Krisom wrote:

iirc, stacks have NEVER been fine for the easiest diffs. Like, ever.

And low BPM sngs as in "how low?". Because an 80 BPM song with a 1/4 is the same as a 160 BPM sng with a 1/2... ...which is still very hard for the easiest diff.

And yeah, I meant short repeat slider with over one repeat.
they are fine.

1/2 160bpm is fine for normals (as easiest diff). pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy

Aleks719 wrote:

pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
You still can use 2/1 patterns to provide some variety :P
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
And while we're at it, don't make this a general rule as it doesn't make sense for other modes (or mania as far as I know). In case this is a guideline I'm fine with it, kinda.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
The spread on each mode should be as per its feeling, that is if a map feels like an easy then it's an easy. Player output should always be primordial when evaluating difficulties. Also, star rating should always be an indicator and not an acquired value to evaluate a difficulties in other modes. For example, in taiko:
I made an easy 226 BPM map lasting for 1'00, which gave me 5.00 SR
I made a hard 179BPM map, with 2000+ note streams, which in total lasts 7'14. 5.04 SR.

The last portion should tell more concisely that the mapset should be accessible for every kind of player, implicitly for every level (Newcomer to thelewa tier)

The diff spread should be reasonable. If your Insane difficulty's star rating is over 4.5, it is recommended to include an Easy difficulty in your mapset, so that the gaps between the difficulties won't be too big. This way, you will make your mapset accessible for every player.

maybe more concise that way
Last edited by Yuzeyun , edited 1 time in total.
Aleks719
osu! Alumni
2,436 posts
Joined May 2010
Aleks719

-Bakari- wrote:

Aleks719 wrote:

pls, 1/1 spam is so laaaaaaame.
You still can use 2/1 patterns to provide some variety :P
but... i didn't mean it...
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Myxo
Thanks for your opinions!

I forgot to say I am only talking about osu!-Standard, since I can't tell much about spreads on the other modes, sorry.
quiz-chan_DELETED
quiz-chan_DELETED
100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
Tari
osu! Alumni
1,671 posts
Joined July 2012
Tari

Lizzy wrote:

100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
I don't agree with this one, it's basically banning all overmapping no matter if it fits or not. Don't get me wrong, in MOST cases it's bad but there are a few cases where overmapping is good. And Plus we all have our different views on what overmapping is. Obviously this should be considered more case by case because certain mappers (I don't want to mention any names) will get truly pissed if this happens.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
Remember to be aware that it's not always the insane that causes problems in a map concerning diff spread :P *cough* https://osu.ppy.sh/s/102615 *cough*

To be honest, I think we don't need a new rule about this. I think BATs and player modders just need to actually look at spreads for once. Be like "Is this accessable to every player" instead of "Does this follow the arbitary rule of having an ENHIX spread"

There also needs to be definition past the star rating on what makes a good E/N/H. Right now it seems like

Insane/Extra:
Fun funfunfufnufnufnufn D:DDDD:DD:

Hard:
Insane diff with distance spacing and low SV

Normal:
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Easy:
nah

Which of course isn't very good. I don't know if we need an osu!academy video to help people understand or what, but it's important to give people the resources they need to make better spreads, instead of just getting mad at mappers for not having good enough spreads.
Kodora
Kodora

Desperate-kun wrote:

The diff spread should be reasonablethe. If your Insane difficulty's star rating is over 4.5, it is recommended to include an Easy difficulty in your mapset, so that the gaps between the difficulties won't be too big. This way, you will make your mapset accessible for every player.
]
Having only insane difficulty over 4.5 stars doesn't always mean that the lowest diff would be "too hard" too - I often see maps with pretty hard insanes over 4.5 stars and acceptable enough Normal diffs. If only insane diff goes too hard and makes big gap, maybe it would be better to include second harder hard/second easier insane to cover it instead? And actually "too hard easiest diffs" can exist even in mapsets where insane goes rated below 4.5.

IMO, difficulty spread issues should be fixed case by case, and current rule already clearly says that difficulty spread should be well-designed.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
I'll agree because I'm getting tired of telling people in my mods that their NHI mapsets can and should have an easy only to be ignored because they're too lazy to map another TV size diff.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi
I am having trouble trying to figure out what this guideline actually does. Are we trying to get a mapper to map a user defined easy diff or a diff below 1.5 stars. In other words, if I mapped a 1.9 star Easy diff, is that acceptable under this rule? Currently, what we define Easy diffs as something below 1.5 stars, but because the star system is not perfect, there are times where we can feel a 1.45 star Easy is still too difficult for a song for some people, regardless of the difficulty of the hardest diff.

Besides that, I have to agree with Kodora and CDFA that spreads should be investigated on a case by case basis if there is really an issue.
quiz-chan_DELETED
quiz-chan_DELETED

Tari wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

100% agreed.

Please also expand the wording by the following:
The highest difficulty must be fitting to the song, ergo it has to be appropriate. Mapping Experts to Moonlight Sonata isn't always a good idea either.

...or something similar. Really, not every song needs an Extra when it's especially slow or it doesn't fit in general. Because srsly

They're everywhere.
I don't agree with this one, it's basically banning all overmapping no matter if it fits or not. Don't get me wrong, in MOST cases it's bad but there are a few cases where overmapping is good. And Plus we all have our different views on what overmapping is. Obviously this should be considered more case by case because certain mappers (I don't want to mention any names) will get truly pissed if this happens.
I never mentioned overmapping anywhere, diffs have to be appropriately paced, that's all.

And guys, remember that this is a guideline. Of course, sets need to be investigated case by case, and the Expert difficulty thing doesn't HAVE to be applied, but should genuinely be considered. We don't force anything upon mappers with this guideline, so it's fully acceptable.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Having this guideline would confuse new mappers a lot, and we should aim for clear and brief rules/guidelines.

I agree this should be handled case by case, not every 2 stars Normal is complex, but also there are a few that rounds 1.8-1.9 that are quite complex. This is regarding about the lowest difficulties.

Also I remark that we also should look for the gaps between difficulties, specially if they're >1.2 stars, this means it's likely too high and another difficulty should be done instead modifying the existent ones.

Basically what Kodora and CDFA said, but in from my point of view :p
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I still think that depends on the song a lot. We should just stick to the fact that a spread should be reasonable; means the easiest diff shouldn't contain really complex stuff, as well as big gaps between normal / hard or hard / insane diffs (for example, you stick to the DS on hard with few jumps, and the insane is basically only jumps).

I personally dislike mapping easies for most songs, because they just don't cover the song like I want it to be covered. Beatskipping is a sad thing..
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
On the other side of things, some "insanes" shouldn't be called insanes when they're fast, jumpy, and streamy enough for the star rating to call them extras.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/416215
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/175241
Both their hards are pretty hard but I still think the difficulty spread could have been better between hard and so-called "insane." The insanes here are extremely fast, lots of 1/2 and 1/4, deathstream and spaced stream in the second, etc. Definitely not an insane by anyone's definition.

This one's difficulty spread is flat out unbalanced.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/127363&m=0

I would like to see more reasonable difficulty spreads on both ends, but here I'm mentioning the insane side because many players will be playing in this 4-5 star difficulty region, while it's relatively easy to improve out of the easy skill level.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Irrererere's post pretty much hits what we need on the nose. It's the mapping techniques employed in the difficulty that is going to be the biggest driver of difficulty, so even though you're going with a Normal for your easiest, you need to make sure that you don't use complex mapping techniques such as difficult rhythms, variable stacks, fast post-spinner notes/short spinners, etc.

I don't really see this guideline doing anything, unfortunately. Wording the ranking criteria to have more emphasis on having an even progression of difficulty would make things much easier to digest globally and will be easier to translate for non-English speakers.
Kodora
Kodora

Irreversible wrote:

I personally dislike mapping easies for most songs, because they just don't cover the song like I want it to be covered. Beatskipping is a sad thing..
Very, very agree with that.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Basically what Garven said about this rule's wording. It shouldn't be uuuh, "set in stone" by words since there are many occurences where it's very hard to respect the current RC (all mode wise). Just write something simple such as the spread must be balanced between diffs and then somehow add that the spread quality is left to BATs own discretion, implying that spreads should be treated case by case.
ZZHBOY
1,649 posts
Joined April 2012
ZZHBOY
we always love to do a extrem diff for a song with a lively rhythm, but at the same time it's much harder to work on low diffs
to follow the rhythm, we could make low diff's star rate get a promotion
basic of this topic, i think in some song with high bpm, normal's star rate is unnecessary to lower than 2.25 absolutly if the map set has an Easy diff.make sure that Easy diff is lower than 1.75 star rate, still can create a well spread imo :)
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Unfortunately SR is not perfect. Stop trying to make rules around something which barely gives a general idéal of a map's difficulty (despite the fact that the current SR is definitely betterave than the old one.)
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
well an uneven spread is definitely unacceptable imo, but having a spread thats slightly more spread out but still even should be acceptable. in any cases, you cannot expect any player to jump from a normal to hard in any map. i know i had to play the normals for several maps from easier ones to harder ones just so i can get to the point where i can pass an easier hard diff.

so tldr; even spreads, yes, but spreads should be allowed to be somewhat spread out as well.
Kaguya Hourain
514 posts
Joined October 2012
Kaguya Hourain
The problem with the wording "Reasonable" in it is that being reasonable is always subjective and it will spark arguements, even if it is a guideline and not a rule. I will try to think up of better wording sometime later.
[Nemesis]
[Nemesis]
I think there should be added one more diff - beginner, under 0.75/1.00 stars :oops:
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Kaguya Hourain wrote:

The problem with the wording "Reasonable" in it is that being reasonable is always subjective and it will spark arguements, even if it is a guideline and not a rule. I will try to think up of better wording sometime later.
Just leave the decision to BATs and QATs. It'll still be subjective, but at least they have more or less the same definition of "reasonable".
ColdTooth
1,100 posts
Joined June 2012
ColdTooth

[Nemesis] wrote:

I think there should be added one more diff - beginner, under 0.75/1.00 stars :oops:
Having too many difficulties on a long map is slightly annoying, however if used on a song below 2 minutes, this can be applicable.

The way that most maps should be is E/N/H/I, and I have been seeing some maps w/ E/N/H/I/I/X, putting to the risk of balancing, because of the amount of easy difficulties (E/N), and harder difficulties (H/I/I/X) isn't very balanced. Two easy difficulties and two harder difficulties is enough, but if you wanted to put in an Extra, then the spread isn't balanced, adding maybe an Advanced or a Beginner or both can fix that balance.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Don't try to make rules more complex than they already are. It's easier to allow a higher number of hard diffs than easy diffs within a set. Tbh as I see it, it's more like E/N/H are the "beginner" diffs, and "I/X(/X+)" the "expert diffs".
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx

ColdTooth wrote:

[Nemesis] wrote:

I think there should be added one more diff - beginner, under 0.75/1.00 stars :oops:
Having too many difficulties on a long map is slightly annoying, however if used on a song below 2 minutes, this can be applicable.

The way that most maps should be is E/N/H/I, and I have been seeing some maps w/ E/N/H/I/I/X, putting to the risk of balancing, because of the amount of easy difficulties (E/N), and harder difficulties (H/I/I/X) isn't very balanced. Two easy difficulties and two harder difficulties is enough, but if you wanted to put in an Extra, then the spread isn't balanced, adding maybe an Advanced or a Beginner or both can fix that balance.
Let's not. Spreads tend to have more insane difficulties to provide more variety to the players in the skill level range who play it the most. Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of people who can only play normals and easies, but they won't play them many times, while the few tens of thousands who can play insanes for fun will retry over and over trying to pass/FC/DT FC for the pp or fun. That's why the presence of more insane diffs caters to this group of people.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if it's been mentioned, but possibly a guideline for how far apart two diffs in a spread can be? For example, that between any two adjecent difficulties, keep the SR difference lower than say 1.5 (just pulling some number). This way you can't have a 2.26 Hard and 5.24 Insane, and should cover the case of a 3 diff mapset's spread being too "wide".
Kodora
Kodora

CXu wrote:

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if it's been mentioned, but possibly a guideline for how far apart two diffs in a spread can be? For example, that between any two adjecent difficulties, keep the SR difference lower than say 1.5 (just pulling some number). This way you can't have a 2.26 Hard and 5.24 Insane, and should cover the case of a 3 diff mapset's spread being too "wide".
We already have direct rule that difficulties should go in consecutive order; due to star rating being not 100% perfect i don't think that adding such limitations with numbers as rule would be really good idea. If jump between two diffs diifs feels to harsh it definitely will be noticed while modding - imo, would be better to leave it just as common sense thing.
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