so what? o_o

If you want to see how badly the current approval rules are hurting mapping in osu, just take a look at the top maps from the best of 2012 voting

https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/History_of_osu!/Best_of_2012

Half (5/10) of the maps in the top 10 of 2012 were approval sets, yet none would have been ranked under the current approval rules. Even going in to 2014 they remain some of the most memorable and influential maps in osu! history.

Other fun fact: In 2013 there were more beatmaps submitted to the BSS than the previous 5 years of osu! combined, yet in 2012 there were about twice as many osu!standard maps ranked under the approved category than there were in 2013.

Too short in 6 min.I feel that marathon is over 10 minutes .
app rule needs more long time.
mapping(E N H I )/modding of 6 min is easy.
keep the quality of course.
and everyone can choose long song or short song.

Laurier wrote:

mapping(E N H I )/modding of 6 min is easy.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/95563

Anyway

Are we talking about marathon length requirement or approval?

If both are same then this thing is getting hopeless time by time.

As what I believe is Approval =/= Marathon

Loli Cjj wrote:

Laurier wrote:

mapping(E N H I )/modding of 6 min is easy.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/95563

Anyway

Are we talking about marathon length requirement or approval?

If both are same then this thing is getting hopeless time by time.

As what I believe is Approval =/= Marathon

Right now the discussion is explicitly about Marathon... also like it or not, Approval and Marathon under current rules for it are pretty much the same. As mentioned that is for a different topic though.

Im sorry, I dont see why we should consider 5 min long map as a marathon, imo, marathon maps should be at the very least 8 mins, in any case, it should be increased from the current 6 min.

In any case, I think that what we should be discussing about is to ask for leniency in the diff spread for mapsets that are over 3 mins long, instead of asking to reduce the requirement for a map to be considered as marathon.

Something that I also believe is that each mapset should have at least 2 diffs, the diff on which it was intended to be played as (aka the hardest diff) and an easier one, and as for the leniency thing, I think that if the map is already over 4 mins long and is a very hard insane, imo, just having an easier diff in the hard category should be enough, instead of asking the mapper to add an easy or normal diff for a full spread.

HanzeR wrote:

If you want to see how badly the current approval rules are hurting mapping in osu, just take a look at the top maps from the best of 2012 voting

https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/History_of_osu!/Best_of_2012

Half (5/10) of the maps in the top 10 of 2012 were approval sets, yet none would have been ranked under the current approval rules. Even going in to 2014 they remain some of the most memorable and influential maps in osu! history.

Other fun fact: In 2013 there were more beatmaps submitted to the BSS than the previous 5 years of osu! combined, yet in 2012 there were about twice as many osu!standard maps ranked under the approved category than there were in 2013.

That's why unranked maps are the best, well they always were but now it is more noticeable.

Is there any reason why total score cant be used as a metric for approval, like it was before? Sure, total score has very little relevance to actual rankings anymore, however having a higher total score generally means that there are more objects in the map, and more objects means it takes more time to place every object.

I think total score is more than accurate enough as a measurement of the time and effort it takes to map a song. I can pretty much guarantee that a 30,000,000 score complex insane map takes just as much, if not more time to map than mapping 4 diffs for your generic TV anime opening (or more often than not, mapping 1 diff and finding other people to do the rest of the work for you). Not to mention the much much much more laborious modding and ranking process that comes with mapping harder/longer maps. People might abuse this system by artificially increasing score (overmapping, tick rates etc.) but this can be modded out on a case by case basis just like it was done before the marathon rule was added.

t/4936

Just leaving it here. Actual reason why approval category exist.

Kodora: I don't see the correlation. That was when maps couldn't get ranked period. They had no option. Now they do: they can get ranked or they can get approved and get the scoreboard.

Score is a poor way to measure eligibility for approval. Maybe you weren't involved much when we had to deal with that before, Hanzer, but it led to bad design decisions because of the score requirements to avoid making a hybrid approval/rank set.

Ah, the glory days when lowering the tick rate to fall from approval into ranked was common enough that a mention was actually written into the ranking criteria not to do it.

I really like that total length rule.

Some random drain time counts from newly ranked/app maps:
TV Sizes - (85 sec * 4 diffs = 328 sec) (88 sec * 4 diffs = 352 sec) (86 sec * 3 diffs = 258 sec)
Standard - (191 sec * 4 diffs = 764 sec) (120 sec * 4 diffs = 480 sec) (120 sec * 9 diffs! = 1080 sec)
Approved - (421 sec * 1 diff = 421 sec) (351 sec * 2 diffs = 702 sec) (380 sec * 1 diff = 380 sec)

Standard length songs (~2 or 3 minutes) seem to have the most mapping done for them, except for 2 diff marathons. I kind of like that. How about 350 seconds to be considered?

Anyway, opinions.

Songs over 5 minutes could be a one diff. Songs over 4 minutes a two diff. Songs over 3 minutes cannot be approved, must be 3 diffs. Songs over 1 minute must have 4+ diffs. Modes other than the "main" chosen mode can have half this requirement, rounded up.

this is really confusing

A Hard or above difficult mapset for songs above 4mins? Making a difficulty so simple for long songs might not be too entertaining, but if there are a few difficulties, starting from Hard, I think it might be better.

Soaprman wrote:

Ah, the glory days when lowering the tick rate to fall from approval into ranked was common enough that a mention was actually written into the ranking criteria not to do it.

I always wanted to do that with my first map.

neonat wrote:

A Hard or above difficult mapset for songs above 4mins? Making a difficulty so simple for long songs might not be too entertaining, but if there are a few difficulties, starting from Hard, I think it might be better.

For applying this, these Hards should be Singletappable with a regular mouse; otherwise, a Normal diff must be provided. Because the most of us aim entertainment and fun, not (necessarily) challenge and lustful proudness on human strength.

Garven wrote:

it led to bad design decisions because of the score requirements to avoid making a hybrid approval/rank set.

we can simply made guidelines/rules against that.

In fact using drain time as onliest approval metric isn't really stopped that: removing all breaks, for example,to achieve approve-able drain time isn't really better design choise.

Alarido wrote:

For applying this, these Hards should be Singletappable with a regular mouse; otherwise, a Normal diff must be provided.

what o_o

That never works, Kodora. Everyone loves pushing the envelope to the furthest possible to the point where the guideline is wasted breath. I still don't think score is a good metric regardless. Having the length is a nice and simple metric that works well.

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

<old suggestions>

Editing this for clarity.
What I suggest:

0~4 minutes : ENHI required (or ENH depending on the song ofc)
4~5 minutes: NHI required (or NH)
5~6 minutes: HI required (if insane is really not appripriate NH required)
6+ minutes: anything (preferably a H or an I)

Star ratings for Normals don't have to be around 3 for NHI spread, but the normal diff needs to feel like a normal diff. Star ratings blow anyway.

Also this is just the minimum required. People can still map a full set for a 5 or 6 minute songs if they want to.

lolcubes wrote:

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

For example:

Below 4 minutes, you need a full set (includes Easy though).
Between 4 and 5 minutes, Easy is not required, but a normal is.
Above 5 minutes only Hard and Insane are required (or a Hard and another difficulty which goes either way), because playing normals for 5 minutes is not challenging for almost anyone. It gets tedious (same with Easy for 4+ mins).
Above 6 minutes, we leave it as it is.

This way we still go towards somewhere and it's not too sudden.

We're using draining time here, right?
In that case, I agree completely with this.

I thought that easy isnt necessary when normal has around 3,0 star difficulty, lol.

Kodora wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/4936

Just leaving it here. Actual reason why approval category exist.

Ah, I remember that! That was when I was just a newbie. I was also there for the hilarious day of 1.18x Flashlight.

Which was like 5.5 years ago. Things are a lot different now so that's not really worth mentioning.

lolcubes wrote:

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

For example:

Below 4 minutes, you need a full set (includes Easy though).
Between 4 and 5 minutes, Easy is not required, but a normal is.
Above 5 minutes only Hard and Insane are required (or a Hard and another difficulty which goes either way), because playing normals for 5 minutes is not challenging for almost anyone. It gets tedious (same with Easy for 4+ mins).
Above 6 minutes, we leave it as it is.

This way we still go towards somewhere and it's not too sudden.

Fully agree as a minimum required for Ranking since people ask me for map the Hard GD for +5 min songs (:

Blue Dragon wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

For example:

Below 4 minutes, you need a full set (includes Easy though).
Between 4 and 5 minutes, Easy is not required, but a normal is.
Above 5 minutes only Hard and Insane are required (or a Hard and another difficulty which goes either way), because playing normals for 5 minutes is not challenging for almost anyone. It gets tedious (same with Easy for 4+ mins).
Above 6 minutes, we leave it as it is.

This way we still go towards somewhere and it's not too sudden.

We're using draining time here, right?
In that case, I agree completely with this.

I agree on this too, as we'll be able to see better spreads in <4 min song, so yeah.

But in the bolded part maybe the Normal we could increase the star rating limit from 3.0 stars or lower to 3.5 stars or lower? (or no limit at all?). This would be better for some songs where the 3 stars Normal falls between the Easy and Normal difficulty, because this implies to simplify a lot, which can hurt the spread (this is more in mapper side but well).

Yes, no star limit, just a difficulty that feels and plays like a normal.
As I said, no new player will have the patience to click slow beats for 5 minutes. Well maybe some will, but Easy is there for the new players to learn the game. Not to play the game (well, thats the general idea, but some people enjoy playing Easy lol).
(it's still possible to include easy if the mapper wants it, in my idea at least)

Tidek wrote:

I thought that easy isnt necessary when normal has around 3,0 star difficulty, lol.

It's not currently. But my version of the rule would change that. The reason is people actually map easier normals as much as possible which creates a gap between a normal and a hard which is hard to close in. I'd call it "cheesing the difficulty" just to make the mapset rankable.
This way you really have no reason to do that and you can just map quality normals like you're normally supposed to.

lolcubes wrote:

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

For example:

Below 4 minutes, you need a full set (includes Easy though).
Between 4 and 5 minutes, Easy is not required, but a normal is.
Above 5 minutes only Hard and Insane are required (or a Hard and another difficulty which goes either way), because playing normals for 5 minutes is not challenging for almost anyone. It gets tedious (same with Easy for 4+ mins).
Above 6 minutes, we leave it as it is.

This way we still go towards somewhere and it's not too sudden.

I'm completely okay with this actually

Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.

the compromise seems like the best one I've seen in some time.

Mr Color wrote:

Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.

I agree totally ♡

Nowadays, many Hards are barely easier than Another/Insane (in the same mapset), thus being more properly made Hyper. And a few even go to the limits of almost getting overmapped.

Mr Color wrote:

Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.

AKA not have a big jump every 2 notes throughout the entire fucking map for no fucking reason.

You guys know who you are.

so 5 min would need 2 diffs with a minimum being a hard.

I can live with that

Purely lovely.

How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705

so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...

RatedNC17 wrote:

so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...

What about using tp stars to determine difficulty? t/164057&start=0 They have much more range and seem more accurate than eyupStars.
Something like this, for example (numbers can be fine-tuned):

1. 0.0-1.2 Stars: Easy
2. 1.0-1.8 Stars: Normal
3. 1.6-2.3 Stars: Hard
4. 2.1-3.6 Stars: Insane
5. 3.4-4.0 Stars: Extra
6. 3.8 or more: Extra+

Garven wrote:

How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705

Maybe I'll provide a proper spread for this song. I'll be very glad of doing it ♡

Something like this one? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/13223

neonat wrote:

Something like this one? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/13223

neonat, I love you too ♡ (without dismissing jlfj coz he is my main ♥)
You gave the example of what we shouldn't do about diff spread.

Now let's do some example of proper diff spread: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/136425
Despite its low BPM overall, it might serve to display something, even though just a glimpse of the right and wrong.

under that system would longer single diff mapsets still be categorized under approval?

I'm just curious how this system would work because if it scales up that way why not just remove the approval categorization altogether, or how would we determine what gets approved and what gets ranked?

Full Tablet wrote:

RatedNC17 wrote:

so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...

What about using tp stars to determine difficulty? http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/164057&start=0 They have much more range and seem more accurate than eyupStars.
Something like this, for example (numbers can be fine-tuned):

1. 0.0-1.2 Stars: Easy
2. 1.0-1.8 Stars: Normal
3. 1.6-2.3 Stars: Hard
4. 2.1-3.6 Stars: Insane
5. 3.4-4.0 Stars: Extra
6. 3.8 or more: Extra+

Disagreed. The difficulty just has to be considerably easier than your insane diff and play like a Hard normally would. I am pretty sure that if you see AR from 6 to 8 (and OD) and the map not being too dense on the timeline you could consider it a hard. You don't need silly math to do that for you. It would also make things more simple. Since you already have BATs checking the mapsets before they are ranked (or just unranking the qualified mapsets) I think it's pretty safe to leave it that way.

Also, there is no criteria for "Extra". While it's common practice to name hardest difficultes (harder than insane at least) as such, it's not required. It's still an Insane per-se. That's another topic though.

Garven wrote:

How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705

That's really situational. To avoid drama, I'd rather have a proper hard and then an insane (can be batshit insane, I mean just look at towa yori ;D ) than create more issues within this issue we're trying to solve or find a compromise for. In most cases if the diff fits the song, all is well. If it's a bunch of crazy overmap, then the diff is bad and should get changed to reflect the song more instead.

As for Kokou no Sousei, yes that is something that I would find acceptable too (hard + one insane, can be more insanes if people want guests, collabs, w/e). It's just that we should be strict on the draining time rules.
I propose a strict 5:00 hard limit on the draining time, where even one second less will not count towards the H+I part of the rule (same goes for 4:00 and NHI and 6:00 and I). This is to avoid drama and have a really clear criteria about this.

As for what happens to approvals, they stay as they are. This rule doesn't change that, but it makes shorter than marathon songs easier to map/mod/rank as people seem to want that. I suggest we also fix the topic title but I'll wait on that for a bit.