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[Rule Change] Marathon map length requirement

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lolcubes
Yes, no star limit, just a difficulty that feels and plays like a normal.
As I said, no new player will have the patience to click slow beats for 5 minutes. Well maybe some will, but Easy is there for the new players to learn the game. Not to play the game (well, thats the general idea, but some people enjoy playing Easy lol).
(it's still possible to include easy if the mapper wants it, in my idea at least)

Tidek wrote:

I thought that easy isnt necessary when normal has around 3,0 star difficulty, lol.
It's not currently. But my version of the rule would change that. The reason is people actually map easier normals as much as possible which creates a gap between a normal and a hard which is hard to close in. I'd call it "cheesing the difficulty" just to make the mapset rankable.
This way you really have no reason to do that and you can just map quality normals like you're normally supposed to.
Topic Starter
karterfreak

lolcubes wrote:

To be honest, we could just make a compromise.

For example:

Below 4 minutes, you need a full set (includes Easy though).
Between 4 and 5 minutes, Easy is not required, but a normal is.
Above 5 minutes only Hard and Insane are required (or a Hard and another difficulty which goes either way), because playing normals for 5 minutes is not challenging for almost anyone. It gets tedious (same with Easy for 4+ mins).
Above 6 minutes, we leave it as it is.

This way we still go towards somewhere and it's not too sudden.
I'm completely okay with this actually
Cyclohexane
Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.
ztrot
the compromise seems like the best one I've seen in some time.
Alarido

Mr Color wrote:

Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.
I agree totally ♡

Nowadays, many Hards are barely easier than Another/Insane (in the same mapset), thus being more properly made Hyper. And a few even go to the limits of almost getting overmapped.
Ekaru

Mr Color wrote:

Good idea. We need to make sure the Hard is sensibly easier than the other difficulty, though.
AKA not have a big jump every 2 notes throughout the entire fucking map for no fucking reason.

You guys know who you are.
Liiraye
so 5 min would need 2 diffs with a minimum being a hard.

I can live with that
Yuzeyun
Purely lovely.
Garven
How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
RatedNC17
so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...
Full Tablet

RatedNC17 wrote:

so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...
What about using tp stars to determine difficulty? t/164057&start=0 They have much more range and seem more accurate than eyupStars.
Something like this, for example (numbers can be fine-tuned):
  1. 0.0-1.2 Stars: Easy
  2. 1.0-1.8 Stars: Normal
  3. 1.6-2.3 Stars: Hard
  4. 2.1-3.6 Stars: Insane
  5. 3.4-4.0 Stars: Extra
  6. 3.8 or more: Extra+
Alarido

Garven wrote:

How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
Maybe I'll provide a proper spread for this song. I'll be very glad of doing it ♡
neonat
Something like this one? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/13223
Alarido

neonat wrote:

Something like this one? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/13223
neonat, I love you too ♡ (without dismissing jlfj coz he is my main ♥)
You gave the example of what we shouldn't do about diff spread.

Now let's do some example of proper diff spread: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/136425
Despite its low BPM overall, it might serve to display something, even though just a glimpse of the right and wrong.
HanzeR
under that system would longer single diff mapsets still be categorized under approval?

I'm just curious how this system would work because if it scales up that way why not just remove the approval categorization altogether, or how would we determine what gets approved and what gets ranked?
lolcubes

Full Tablet wrote:

RatedNC17 wrote:

so have we come to an agreement here? also i think that a hard should actually be a hard and not just to be another insane with a different name...
What about using tp stars to determine difficulty? http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/164057&start=0 They have much more range and seem more accurate than eyupStars.
Something like this, for example (numbers can be fine-tuned):
  1. 0.0-1.2 Stars: Easy
  2. 1.0-1.8 Stars: Normal
  3. 1.6-2.3 Stars: Hard
  4. 2.1-3.6 Stars: Insane
  5. 3.4-4.0 Stars: Extra
  6. 3.8 or more: Extra+
Disagreed. The difficulty just has to be considerably easier than your insane diff and play like a Hard normally would. I am pretty sure that if you see AR from 6 to 8 (and OD) and the map not being too dense on the timeline you could consider it a hard. You don't need silly math to do that for you. It would also make things more simple. Since you already have BATs checking the mapsets before they are ranked (or just unranking the qualified mapsets) I think it's pretty safe to leave it that way.

Also, there is no criteria for "Extra". While it's common practice to name hardest difficultes (harder than insane at least) as such, it's not required. It's still an Insane per-se. That's another topic though.

Garven wrote:

How are we going to determine the level of "Hard" that would be acceptable though? I've seen some pretty huge variances in the level of Hard difficulties, and if this is a pass to the whole giving more players an opportunity to enjoy the song, should we leave it at an actual Hard level to the point of if there's a batshit-Insane level map here, there will need to be 3 maps, a Hard, Insane, then the batshit-Insane?

An example of what I mean as far as what would be acceptable under this compromise here:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
That's really situational. To avoid drama, I'd rather have a proper hard and then an insane (can be batshit insane, I mean just look at towa yori ;D ) than create more issues within this issue we're trying to solve or find a compromise for. In most cases if the diff fits the song, all is well. If it's a bunch of crazy overmap, then the diff is bad and should get changed to reflect the song more instead.

As for Kokou no Sousei, yes that is something that I would find acceptable too (hard + one insane, can be more insanes if people want guests, collabs, w/e). It's just that we should be strict on the draining time rules.
I propose a strict 5:00 hard limit on the draining time, where even one second less will not count towards the H+I part of the rule (same goes for 4:00 and NHI and 6:00 and I). This is to avoid drama and have a really clear criteria about this.

As for what happens to approvals, they stay as they are. This rule doesn't change that, but it makes shorter than marathon songs easier to map/mod/rank as people seem to want that. I suggest we also fix the topic title but I'll wait on that for a bit.
neonat
As long as this rule will not affect slow short songs that are EN/NH mapsets (what I mean is that they are still allowed only 2 difficulties even if they are very short, because mapping such songs are limited in difficulty range; don't make it a must for short songs to have 3+ difficulties, or at least make exceptions for these)
Glazbom
YES
D33d
Sounds very much like laziness to me. Five minutes is a reasonable length, even for a pop song that would air on the radio (when that four-minute limit isn't being imposed clumsily). To me, "marathon" implies "really long" and a five-minute map shouldn't feel that way if it's paced decently.

If certain people had their way, then we'd probably have Extra-only TV Sizes everywhere and a huge portion of less able players being alienated. Thankfully, that's why definition limitations such as this are in place.

DEEDIT: Looking back through the thread, the proposed compromise sounds fairly reasonable, but I worry that it'd be open to abuse. You know, people looking for songs which are only barely long enough to satisfy the two-diff requirement. Easies and normals don't have to be boring for novices--indeed, with mods in particular, they can feel pretty satisfying when made properly. Using "it's boring to play them for that long" sounds like a quick and nasty fix for the problem of people not knowing how to map those diffs well. I'm pretty sure that lots of people would enjoy longer easy maps, if the maps had suitable pacing with climaxes and tasty patterns in the right places.
Kodora
What about just allow for easier diffs have less drain time with saving current approval criteria? This is not directly unrankable for now, but kinda unvanted. We can solve lots of problems by this - maps will still have proper diff spread, and mapping, for example, 1:30 of 5 min long song won't be too hard for mapper - also 1:30 long easy won't really be boring for anyone.

Thought?
Natsu

Kodora wrote:

What about just allow for easier diffs have less drain time with saving current approval criteria? This is not directly unrankable for now, but kinda unvanted. We can solve lots of problems by this - maps will still have proper diff spread, and mapping, for example, 1:30 of 5 min long song won't be too hard for mapper - also 1:30 long easy won't really be boring for anyone.

Thought?
sound fair
D33d

Kodora wrote:

What about just allow for easier diffs have less drain time with saving current approval criteria? This is not directly unrankable for now, but kinda unvanted. We can solve lots of problems by this - maps will still have proper diff spread, and mapping, for example, 1:30 of 5 min long song won't be too hard for mapper - also 1:30 long easy won't really be boring for anyone.

Thought?
Sounds extremely contrived. Again, a map won't be boring for its target audience if it's mapped well. Mapping less than a third of the song is getting away with murder, simple as that.
Natsu

D33d wrote:

Kodora wrote:

What about just allow for easier diffs have less drain time with saving current approval criteria? This is not directly unrankable for now, but kinda unvanted. We can solve lots of problems by this - maps will still have proper diff spread, and mapping, for example, 1:30 of 5 min long song won't be too hard for mapper - also 1:30 long easy won't really be boring for anyone.

Thought?
Sounds extremely contrived. Again, a map won't be boring for its target audience if it's mapped well. Mapping less than a third of the song is getting away with murder, simple as that.
But is a better option than asking for map hard and insane diff only.
DakeDekaane
Under that proposal, you're not forced to only Hard/Insane, you're free to map a 4 diff spread for a long song, Hard/Insane would be the minimum required.

Personally I'd prefer all diffs with the same length, regardless of duration.
D33d

DakeDekaane wrote:

Under that proposal, you're not forced to only Hard/Insane, you're free to map a 4 diff spread for a long song, Hard/Insane would be the minimum required.

Personally I'd prefer all diffs with the same length, regardless of duration.
The entire point is that people will take the excuse to omit [Easy] and [Normal]. This is what I don't like about it, because people will invariably pick songs which scrape five minutes and then only map [Hard] and [Insane]. I know this, because it's part of the general mentality of this place. That sort of thing already happens in #modhelp--people say, "This is just long enough to count as marathon, right? Right!? Pleeeeeeaaaase tell me it's long enough ;A;"

By extrapolation, we'll have people saying, "Hey is this enough drain time for hard/insane?" Then, "Hey I can just map insane for this 2:59 song, right?" It's a slippery slope which I'm exaggerating for the sake of argument, but it couldn't be more appropriate to quote the saying, "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile."

DEEDIT: To see what I've let myself in for, I decided to read more of the thread. Now I'm really at a loss. Oh well, suit yourselves.
Wishy
Still wonder why people think mapping or even playing a five minutes long EASY or NORMAL is fun for anyone.

I have failed to find any LONG EASY OR NORMAL DIFFICULTY with a high play count compared to the rest of the difficulties of the same mapset.

Some day people here will realize that the game is not gonna break or anything if you stop giving priority to lower difficulties, if anything it's gonna be better, most played difficulties from the information I've checked are Hards, then Insanes (exceptions exist, such as extremely mainstream maps like Guren no Yumiya, which are what super casuals play, their favorite anime song), there are no players whining about now having "a playable easy/normal" on some mapset, but instead there are indeed players whining about the maximum difficulty being boring, or the mapset not getting ranked because it lacks a [super easy] level, etc.

Also, if you check out recent maps (which usually have a high play count for a few days after they get ranked) you'll find out the most played difficulty is almost always the hardest one, while the other ones don't really get many plays at all (this happens for a number of reasons but what really matters is what people actually play and not really why).

It's been like 2 or 3 years since I started playing mainly unranked maps and it seems like it's gonna be like that forever since things don't look like they are ever gonna change. :/
Natsu

Wishy wrote:

Still wonder why people think mapping or even playing a five minutes long EASY or NORMAL is fun for anyone.

I have failed to find any LONG EASY OR NORMAL DIFFICULTY with a high play count compared to the rest of the difficulties of the same mapset.

Some day people here will realize that the game is not gonna break or anything if you stop giving priority to lower difficulties, if anything it's gonna be better, most played difficulties from the information I've checked are Hards, then Insanes (exceptions exist, such as extremely mainstream maps like Guren no Yumiya, which are what super casuals play, their favorite anime song), there are no players whining about now having "a playable easy/normal" on some mapset, but instead there are indeed players whining about the maximum difficulty being boring, or the mapset not getting ranked because it lacks a [super easy] level, etc.

Also, if you check out recent maps (which usually have a high play count for a few days after they get ranked) you'll find out the most played difficulty is almost always the hardest one, while the other ones don't really get many plays at all (this happens for a number of reasons but what really matters is what people actually play and not really why).

It's been like 2 or 3 years since I started playing mainly unranked maps and it seems like it's gonna be like that forever since things don't look like they are ever gonna change. :/
for example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/277212&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/255655&m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/225301&m=3

and almost every map have more play count in normal/easy diff

Kodora Idea is better than having maps with just hard/insane IMO
DakeDekaane
Actually Wishy is right about diffs more played Hard/Insane>Normal>Easy, in most of cases. Many casual players play either Normal or Hard.
As a mapper I don't find boring mapping long Easy (Normal maybe), but of course I may be the only one with this way of thinking.
As a player I usually play Hards or easy Insanes, but I also have fun with Normal difficulties when I don't feel like putting too much effort.

A shorter low diff is like giving players the leftovers of our lunch, one does better by mapping a collaboration or asking for a guest diff if one doesn't want to map the whole thing.

@D33d: I know that will likely happen, but if they want put that low ammount of effort and be happy with it, it's up to them. Obviously there will be some exceptions.

It's not that bad when a ENHI spread would be needed for songs shorter than 4 minutes. There are some songs that goes slightly above 4 minutes and will have at least a NHI or ENH. I'd only change that in lolcubes' proposal, either a ENH or NHI spread for 4-5 minutes songs. Not everything is that bad under that proposal, unless people try hard.
lolcubes

DakeDekaane wrote:

I'd only change that in lolcubes' proposal, either a ENH or NHI spread for 4-5 minutes songs. Not everything is that bad under that proposal, unless people try hard.
No need. You are just not required to have an easy. You can map 25 diffs if you wanted, including easy, but you're not required to do so.

Please re-read my proposal guys. You don't need an easy diff under those rules, but you are allowed to map one if you want.
D33d

Wishy wrote:

Still wonder why people think mapping or even playing a five minutes long EASY or NORMAL is fun for anyone.
Probably because most people suck at mapping easier diffs. That's their problem to fix, not the system's.

Wishy wrote:

I have failed to find any LONG EASY OR NORMAL DIFFICULTY with a high play count compared to the rest of the difficulties of the same mapset.
Yes, that happens because competitive players play more often and more fiercely--they want to keep outdoing each other, oftentimes on the same maps.

Wishy wrote:

Some day people here will realize that the game is not gonna break or anything if you stop giving priority to lower difficulties,
Stop giving priority to lower diffs and people will stop making them, which will lead to people being even less practised in them and then the diffs will suck even more.

Wishy wrote:

if anything it's gonna be better, most played difficulties from the information I've checked are Hards, then Insanes (exceptions exist, such as extremely mainstream maps like Guren no Yumiya, which are what super casuals play, their favorite anime song), there are no players whining about now having "a playable easy/normal" on some mapset, but instead there are indeed players whining about the maximum difficulty being boring, or the mapset not getting ranked because it lacks a [super easy] level, etc.
See above. Also note that casual players/novices are probably a lot less vocal than those dedicated players who will invariably go for harder maps. The school of thought that you share with others essentially boils down to, "fuck the bad player; nobody needs to care about them." This is generally the part which annoys me the most, because a lack of fun and approachable e/n maps makes it a lot harder for me to turn a friend's casual interest into a real liking of the game.

Wishy wrote:

Also, if you check out recent maps (which usually have a high play count for a few days after they get ranked) you'll find out the most played difficulty is almost always the hardest one, while the other ones don't really get many plays at all (this happens for a number of reasons but what really matters is what people actually play and not really why).
You're now sounding like a broken record.

Wishy wrote:

It's been like 2 or 3 years since I started playing mainly unranked maps and it seems like it's gonna be like that forever since things don't look like they are ever gonna change. :/
What does that have to do with anything? I see the "oh boohoo their insane map has been sitting around for months/years, look at how much effort little Timmy put into his insane" argument come up from time to time, but it makes zero sense. Not a jot. In the time that the mapper's let their map sit, they could've spent one or two months learning how to make a decent spread, then another several on making them as amazing as they can. You know how some people are revered as mappers? Perhaps they should prove it by putting out good sets consistently, since they've always been a staple.

I showed m980 this thread and he was incredulous as to how four or five minutes could count as a marathon. I wish that other people would see that--after all, you wouldn't call a 400m or 800m track race a marathon.

Things like this are why I keep wanting to ditch the osu! community altogether, but something keeps making me care for the overall quality of the game. I'll actually play easies and normals, with or without mods, if they're made really well and I'm sure that I'm not alone here. Sometimes, people just want to relax with the game and their favourite music.
Wishy
I have argued with you a few times and we are never gonna agree. We are from different groups, as you are not an active player, you are more of a mapper so you don't really know much about how people plays the game, while I'm more of a player than a mapper so I get to know what players want. Different points of view I guess, tho I still think many mappers fail to see what mapping is really about: making maps for people to play and have fun on. A map is as good as people can enjoy it. Having a full difficulty spread is probably the best since everyone is able to play it, yet I'm not sure if anyone would like a FIVE MINUTE LONG EASY, damn even insanes that long get boring unless they are extremely good, I can't imagine how you could not die of boredom after playing 5 minutes of ultra long sliders and 1/1s...
Full Tablet

Wishy wrote:

I have argued with you a few times and we are never gonna agree. We are from different groups, as you are not an active player, you are more of a mapper so you don't really know much about how people plays the game, while I'm more of a player than a mapper so I get to know what players want. Different points of view I guess, tho I still think many mappers fail to see what mapping is really about: making maps for people to play and have fun on. A map is as good as people can enjoy it. Having a full difficulty spread is probably the best since everyone is able to play it, yet I'm not sure if anyone would like a FIVE MINUTE LONG EASY, damn even insanes that long get boring unless they are extremely good, I can't imagine how you could not die of boredom after playing 5 minutes of ultra long sliders and 1/1s...
Not everybody has fun the same way as you do. Take into consideration that people have different levels of skill: While you probably can SS easy Insanes without even focusing, for some people SSing a 5 minute long Easy can still be a challenge.

Also, a considerable part of the appeal of playing this game is listening to the music they like while they play. If there are less songs for lower levels, then some people can't play properly until they get better at the game (and not everybody is even interested in becoming a skilled player).
Stefan

Wishy wrote:

I can't imagine how you could not die of boredom after playing 5 minutes of ultra long sliders and 1/1s...
please stop it. thanks.
D33d

Wishy wrote:

I have argued with you a few times and we are never gonna agree. We are from different groups, as you are not an active player, you are more of a mapper so you don't really know much about how people plays the game, while I'm more of a player than a mapper so I get to know what players want. Different points of view I guess, tho I still think many mappers fail to see what mapping is really about: making maps for people to play and have fun on. A map is as good as people can enjoy it. Having a full difficulty spread is probably the best since everyone is able to play it, yet I'm not sure if anyone would like a FIVE MINUTE LONG EASY, damn even insanes that long get boring unless they are extremely good, I can't imagine how you could not die of boredom after playing 5 minutes of ultra long sliders and 1/1s...
I can assure you that, after the aforementioned instances of trying to get friends into the game, trying to get e/n right for osu!stream and interacting with novices in the client itself, I know a thing or two about the bottom end of the spectrum. For example, I showed a novice my easy diff of 'Harmless Minor' and they appreciated the fact that it was so expressive and even made them think a little bit--that's the sort of thing I go for with easies. The diff in question amounted to a fair amount of variance and punch, yet the song itself is about three and a half minutes+.

Now, I'm feeling rather mellow for once, so I'm not gonna bite your head off. Just try not to make too many assumptions about me and where I'm coming from. Not only have I been there as a player (I play this game pretty frequently if I come across the rare maps that I actually enjoy), i.e. lamenting the lack of nice easier maps, but I've seen enough of novices to know that they need some love from time to time as well. That's just the way it is. With any luck, my osu!academy guest slot will be up for all to see, where I'll be talking about all of this in an official context--here's hoping that lots of newbies take away enough from it to help mitigate the "e/n is boring and useless" problem.

DEEDIT: I will throw in a deconstructive dig at your post--you contradict yourself by preaching the importance of mapping for players to enjoy. Novices will probably not enjoy a map that's beyond their ability, but they also won't enjoy a doable map that's got bad/no pacing or flair. That's what makes the issue all the more important, which is why I'm always jumping down people's throats about it. I know that I get carried away with myself, but I'm extremely passionate about this game and would hate to see it even harder for beginners to get into it.
ryza
this game has a horrible horrible problem with ranking

the good players run out of shit to play

why?

because the fucking approval rule changed

no one who maps super hard maps also wants to map easier difficulties and then put in the effort to get them ranked on top of that

if you are bad enough at this game to want to play easies/normals

then you have a very large amount of shit to challenge you

stop acting entitled to your boring easy crap that there's endless amounts of, and saying that "new players won't be able to play their favorite song ;;"

if they want to play it, tell them to get better, there's plenty of other songs for them in the mean time
Star Stream
^
Mismagius

Silynn wrote:

this game has a horrible horrible problem with ranking

the good players run out of shit to play

why?

because the fucking approval rule changed

no one who maps super hard maps also wants to map easier difficulties and then put in the effort to get them ranked on top of that

if you are bad enough at this game to want to play easies/normals

then you have a very large amount of shit to challenge you

stop acting entitled to your boring easy crap that there's endless amounts of, and saying that "new players won't be able to play their favorite song ;;"

if they want to play it, tell them to get better, there's plenty of other songs for them in the mean time
I like it that way. 95% (includes me a few years ago) of the mappers who don't care enough to make an Easy diff for their EXTRA INSANE EXTREME beatmaps make terrible beatmaps as well with artificial difficulty and AR10 jumps on let's say, 180BPM, so the rule helps to keep the bad maps away.
Stefan

Silynn wrote:

no one who maps super hard maps also wants to map easier difficulties and then put in the effort to get them ranked on top of that
I love these people who tries to speak for other people. So you have clear proofs to confirm this? Ah nevermind this would end in nowhere. But seriously, that attitude is as bad as these people which complains about no Easy/Normal Difficulties in xyz Song.
D33d

Silynn wrote:

this game has a horrible horrible problem with ranking

the good players run out of shit to play

why?

because the fucking approval rule changed

no one who maps super hard maps also wants to map easier difficulties and then put in the effort to get them ranked on top of that

if you are bad enough at this game to want to play easies/normals

then you have a very large amount of shit to challenge you

stop acting entitled to your boring easy crap that there's endless amounts of, and saying that "new players won't be able to play their favorite song ;;"

if they want to play it, tell them to get better, there's plenty of other songs for them in the mean time
The solution is for mappers to get better at making good spreads. Yes, ranking takes effort. Mappers know that when they start any set.

New players do need to be catered to and the only way for some people to get better quickly is to use easier maps to get used to basic mechanics, as well as basic musical cues. Players are spoiled with the number of maps which are ranked day in, day out. Stop acting entitled in a way which implies that the game should revolve around you and your kind, because it doesn't. It revolves around everybody who plays the game.

Also, supporting BD's sentiment. It's a method of quality control, which is what this game needs.
Liiraye
From a completely objective stand point in this current arguement, these are (IMO) important points to remember.

* Peppy himself has stated that he does not want nor need more *NEW* players in osu. Mainly because it will be even harder as a sole person to keep management over the ever increasing users.

* People who play osu improve if they are somewhat active, that is more or less a fact which everyone will agree upon (at least being able to play normals/hards).

Reasoning

New people start every day. Let's say they all start by playing easy difficulties to get used to the game. Fine. Some people become active, others never log in again or rarely ever play. The active players will gradually improve from the easy/normal category no matter how bad they are, as long as they play somewhat frequently.

These are IMO the players we should focus on. The players who stay and are frequently playing the game. The players who are likely to contribute more because of how much they enjoy the game.

Questions

So why does every mapper still have to cater to the very least needed, and eventually minority (if somehow there is a stop to the constant flow of new players) population of newbies, when there are already so many maps they can play a couple of times to improve on?

Keeping the past points in mind, would lowering the approval lenght requirement by a minute really have any detrimental rammifications that some people in this thread love to paint out? Especially when maps around the 5-6 minute range rarely ever gets ranked these days?

Editing maps is a personal investment of free time that grants you nothing practical in return in the end. Quality maps are in decline. Rules & regulations push creativeness further and further away from getting something ranked (this also concerns modding in a way).

That's also why I could also see something like the (HI) spread as people have proposed here for maps in the 5-6 minute range. That aside I think the OP in this thread displays excellent points and should be discussed at first.

I know I'm partly speculating here, but I still feel that this is the reality we are in today.
lolcubes
Why are we still discussing this in a way that marathons should get changed?

Change how the ranking works instead of marathon, leave the marathon be imo.
Still stand by my suggestions.

@D33d, while we both know how this may end up, with my proposal you don't get a lot of changes done immediately so the chances for ruin are small though. It's still possible to observe how it turns out and if successful, keep or move forward. If unsuccessful, emergency changes can be done.
I doubt not having an easy in a 4 min mapset is something that will break the current criteria, most of the people just cheese their normals to be easy enough anyway, and get away with it.
D33d

Liiraye wrote:

Editing maps is a personal investment of free time that grants you nothing practical in return in the end. Quality maps are in decline. Rules & regulations push creativeness further and further away from getting something ranked (this also concerns modding in a way).
The mapper knows this and they're effectively signing up to create quality content by their own volition. In regards to that, nothing's changed and the only reason for quality decline is the mappers themselves. There has never been anything in the rules and guidelines to stifle creativity, although I realise the the popular definition is "make something as outlandish and gimmicky as possible." That still doesn't mean that creativity's unwelcome.


That's also why I could also see something like the (HI) spread as people have proposed here for maps in the 5-6 minute range. That aside I think the OP in this thread displays excellent points and should be discussed at first.
This I'm okay with, as we've always had a 1-2 diff allowance for longer songs. It's when songs begin to fall into "normal length" territory that I see no reason for the mapper not to attempt a full spread. Maybe three diffs, but they'd better create a damn good spread.

lolcubes, the problem with tentative changes is that mappers can easily use them to get their way by whittling away the quality control, bit by bit. Moreover, people are more likely to cry foul if a limitation's reincluded, so once a change is in place, it becomes a lot harder to undo in an emergency. I guess that people generally do "get away with" omitting easy, but I'd say it's better to encourage mappers to go a bit further than doing the bare minimum. Easies take very little time anyway. Besides that, all I ever see in this kind of debate is a series of weak excuses for doing the bare minimum, when the mapper might as well put in a small amount of time to make their contribution as complete as possible.

Even if peppy doesn't want/need more players, they're still going to come--why not allow for that which eases the newer players into the game, especially if it means that they'll eventually contribute? In 2008, I found it impossible to get used to the gameplay, so I didn't think anything of the game until 2011, when I finally had a decent mouse. Even then, I was thankful for the easier diffs which I could actually manage, for just long enough that I ended up committing to osu! as I do today.

For an example of what I don't want the game to become, I once tried to play Toribash. Because of the steep learning curve, I tried it for a bit and ended up having nothing to do with the game ever again. There was very little to ease newbies into it. Let's say that osu! had never been based around full spreads and was only an open canvas for "creative" insanes as ranked maps. I don't think I'd have cared at all after even a day of commitment.

Other than preventing a bad snowball effect and keeping more open to newer players, the benefit of encouraging more full sets is that mappers actually have reasons to practice full sets, which would make them improve at making easier diffs. As soon as I had to make full sets, my easier maps improved drastically and became a lot more nuanced--after struggling to make 'Teardrop' tidy and compelling, I came back with more experience and was suddenly able to make a set with which I was satisfied. Again, I must stress that people are already asking how they can make their single diffs rankable, so they'll end up asking that in more cases if they know they'll have more excuses for it. As it is, we don't exactly see many easies and normals which are made that well, so I hope that my point speaks for itself through what's already out there.
neonat
There are so many graveyarded maps that people like. Many of those, for example, let's say crn maps, are known and played by many people. It's played a lot even though it's not officially ranked. Why? People share and spread through friends, multiplayer and /np.

They can get recognition even if they are not ranked, so in my opinion, it is not a pressing issue that songs have to be ranked for people to play them, since when is songs not getting ranked = players have nothing good to play? They can enjoy those songs without a rank. Thus the rules do not have to be changed. Mappers make such one-shot difficulties because they think it is fun, and it's what they do, they are free to submit them to the site, getting a ranked is totally different matter. I'm not really sure how else to elaborate what I'm saying, but I hope you get the idea as to what I'm trying to say. Of course, maybe it would be good to have a possible monthly or of some sort where such songs can be compiled on the site, something like a group of unranked stuff that people have tried and is thought to be a good challenge for even skilled players, so other's can see for themselves and give it a go to test their skills.
D33d

neonat wrote:

There are so many graveyarded maps that people like. Many of those, for example, let's say crn maps, are known and played by many people. It's played a lot even though it's not officially ranked. Why? People share and spread through friends, multiplayer and /np.

They can get recognition even if they are not ranked, so in my opinion, it is not a pressing issue that songs have to be ranked for people to play them, since when is songs not getting ranked = players have nothing good to play? They can enjoy those songs without a rank. Thus the rules do not have to be changed. Mappers make such one-shot difficulties because they think it is fun, and it's what they do, they are free to submit them to the site, getting a ranked is totally different matter. I'm not really sure how else to elaborate what I'm saying, but I hope you get the idea as to what I'm trying to say. Of course, maybe it would be good to have a possible monthly or of some sort where such songs can be compiled on the site, something like a group of unranked stuff that people have tried and is thought to be a good challenge for even skilled players, so other's can see for themselves and give it a go to test their skills.
This is the crux of it--mappers tend to feel entitled to have their maps approved, solely because they've made them. It's a privilege, not a right, and the mappers have to earn it.

A compilation sort of thing would be cool. Hell, I wouldn't mind single diffs being approved regardless of length, but for one thing--people would pay a lot less attention to full spreads, or even HIX spreads. That aside, people are absolutely able to bundle their favourite unranked maps together to play for fun.

Hey, I have some single diffs which I only made as an outlet. There are times when I think it'd be nice if they could be ranked as-is, but I know that they're unfinished mapsets and would therefore never want them to be ranked on their own. I don't get in people's faces and complain that my cherished work won't be made official, so I suggest that other people follow suit.
Kodora

D33d wrote:

Mapping less than a third of the song is getting away with murder, simple as that.
Why? As lolcubes said, Easy diffs here are to let beginners learn how to play this game, not to play them.

99% of Easy diffs based on 2/1 or 1/1, which is perfectly fine for short tutorial, but not for a 4 or 5 min long map - this really can be extremely boring sometimes.

My point is - maps should have proper diff spread, but to make ranking criteria more friendly for long maps let's allow having shorten drain time for easiest diffs. This is not something directly forbidden anyway, and this already was common practice for years.
those

Kodora wrote:

99% of Easy diffs based on 2/1 or 1/1, which is perfectly fine for short tutorial, but not for a 4 or 5 min long map - this really can be extremely boring sometimes.
Then this has nothing to do with the ranking criteria, but the quality of maps people produce and/or quality of mods people give.
Kodora

those wrote:

Then this has nothing to do with the ranking criteria, but the quality of maps people produce and/or quality of mods people give.
I don't aim to disallow having fully mapped easy/normal diffs, i aim to allow shorten low diffs for people who wants that. Forcing people map them fully won't increase overral quality of the whole diff (and probably even made it worse). Quality of mods? Yes, it is quite hard to find good modder nowadays, but this topic is not about that.
Stefan

Kodora wrote:

i aim to allow shorten low diffs for people who wants that.
Our goal is to go steps forward, this would be a step backwards. It would be much better to keep them out as mapping a Difficulty to 50%.
D33d

Kodora wrote:

those wrote:

Then this has nothing to do with the ranking criteria, but the quality of maps people produce and/or quality of mods people give.
I don't aim to disallow having fully mapped easy/normal diffs, i aim to allow shorten low diffs for people who wants that. Forcing people map them fully won't increase overral quality of the whole diff (and probably even made it worse). Quality of mods? Yes, it is quite hard to find good modder nowadays, but this topic is not about that.
It's not about whether or not current mapping quality should decide things either. If anything, we need more people mapping easier diffs for the practice.
Alarido
Rules would be kept a lot simpler this way:

- marathon should be a song compilation (various songs together, like ParaparaMAX, even though not being so longer as it), e.g., a compilation of various TV size songs. Some animes have a considerable count of different op/eds.

- exception would be granted for longer songs, like Eastern Dream touhou (mapped by lfj) (its length would be aimed as a minimum req for a marathon map) and the 4th movement of the 9th Symphony of Beethoven, to give an extremal example. Don't hate.

and how I wish make a collab with Kodora on otetsu - Shell! *no esplendor da ansiedade*
Garven
Denied. See p/3031859 for the approved version.
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