Hai,

I wanted to know, is it possible to remove this rule what's the quantity of hitsounds needed for a mania map in order to be rankable ? As in do I need to hitsound nearly all of my notes, only key parts, etc... ? It's easy to do in the other modes since it's only one or two hitsound per object but I have no idea what to do with this many notes in mania.

I don't think hitsounds are even required, many ranked maps seem to just use the same soft hit for all objects. It makes sense though since mania is supposed to follow music better than standard, so there's no need.

While for many of us they're not required, peppy demands all ranked maps to have a variety of hitsounds and to PM him if there are maps that must be unranked because of this.

Source:
t/169490

To answer Pyakura's question,

I just gonna quote of Loctav's here ;

Loctav wrote:

Hitsounds are hitsounds. On all modes.
I see no reason why mania is different from standard or ctb here.
And yes, they are good. If they don't meet your taste, you can always do them better when you map the same song.

Mania isn't osu! but mania is also not sooooooooo special that you can circumvent every criteria and get a special treatment for everything just because it's out of your comfortable zone.

"It doesn't fit because it's not how I roll" is no appropriate reasoning. State is clear. I can not think of an reason why hitsounds are not a must in mania. If you dislike the default ones, use custom ones. There are tons of databases to take hitsounds from.
But even with the default sample sets you can create cool stuff.

Also you are not supposed to hitsound every single detailed note.
You are supposed to create a basic rhythm/basic song following with the hitsounds.
If you leave out certain notes because you are like having 15 samples in one row, that's okay.
Just create a basic hitsoundung that represents the general flow or movement or stressing or kick/snare/bass behavior in the song.

We do not want you to do a o2jam-level hitsoundung on every set.

ishimaru94 wrote:

To answer Pyakura's question,

I just gonna quote of Loctav's here ;

Loctav wrote:

Hitsounds are hitsounds. On all modes.
I see no reason why mania is different from standard or ctb here.
And yes, they are good. If they don't meet your taste, you can always do them better when you map the same song.

Mania isn't osu! but mania is also not sooooooooo special that you can circumvent every criteria and get a special treatment for everything just because it's out of your comfortable zone.

"It doesn't fit because it's not how I roll" is no appropriate reasoning. State is clear. I can not think of an reason why hitsounds are not a must in mania. If you dislike the default ones, use custom ones. There are tons of databases to take hitsounds from.
But even with the default sample sets you can create cool stuff.

Also you are not supposed to hitsound every single detailed note.
You are supposed to create a basic rhythm/basic song following with the hitsounds.
If you leave out certain notes because you are like having 15 samples in one row, that's okay.
Just create a basic hitsoundung that represents the general flow or movement or stressing or kick/snare/bass behavior in the song.

We do not want you to do a o2jam-level hitsoundung on every set.

Aaah, I missed this post, thanks.

@HanzeR : well yeah I agree but it's not like we have much choice either. All this rule does is slowing down the creation of new mania beatmaps (during the 2 last months there were plenty of mania maps ranked)

Just going to give my point of view on hitsounding here ( I'm not a BAT but this is what I found after modding maps )
- You have to hit sound every single note, you just have to hit sound significant notes that fall in the music, don't think in depth hitsounding is needed for ranking, that'll take a lot of work ( Eg. IIDX hitsounding )
- What I mean by have to hitsound every single note ( before someone misunderstands ), is that the hitsound on every single note must be audible
- If a section is fully piano, I recommend soft-hitnormal with soft-hitclaps to keep the rhythm, nothing too bizarre as to hitsounding every single piano note

Here's my chart to help people hitsound without custom hitsounds

-- Bass, use Drum Finish
-- Low pitched Drum, use Drum Clap
-- Hats, use Soft normal or Drum normal
-- Cymbals, use Normal Finish
-- Soft Cymbals, use Soft Finish
-- Bells, use Soft whistle
-- Claps, use Normal Clap
-- Soft Claps, use Soft Clap
-- Whistles, Normal Whistle ( Not common )
-- Quiet sections or soft instruments (Eg. Piano), Soft Normal
-- Moderately loud sections or loud instruments (Eg. Electric Guitar), Normal Normal
-- Misc. Drum whistle ( Never used this before )

TBH This is a really fiercing idea to force hitsounding due to osu!mania nature.

If possible, let's start the discussion on the poll instead.[/quote]

Not hitsounding a map is simply laziness by mapper's side. It might appear as "slowing down" to the process, but if you consider "half-arsed" maps as "done", then you are doing something wrong.
Hitsounds have always been part of osu!, osu!Taiko, osu!CtB and osu!mania. woc2006 also confirmed to me, that putting hitsounds as mandatory was his plan, too, but he wanted to introduce them one by one. (I ruined this plan, tho, that's why we had this little fight, which is sorted out now)

Not putting hitsounds has been a bad habit which has been taken over from the custom-notecharters from o2mania, lunatic rave and stepmania. Official BMS/O2jam Charts (where the game is based on) always used hitsounds (whereas "hitsound" is defined as a sound being played when the note is pressed in the right moment, which happens on bms and o2jam as in notes being "hitsounded" with noises or samples from the song itself, which results in completing the song while playing the notes).
That custom-created notecharts on other games had no hitsounds (and therefore are now somewhat considered "unnecessary") resulted out of the incapabilities of the majority of notecharters to create said hitsounds or note samples to make a complete map. And as you also know, custom BMS were accepted without any modding, any improvement and any anything, you could literally poop out the worst shit there and everyone would be "OOMGOMGOMGSOCOOL" even tho it's simply a trash chart.

If even the main developers and original creators of Beatmania deemed hitsounds as "absolutely necessary" (because I can not remember any official/authentic chart without any hitsounds), I see no reason why it is "not necessary" suddenly. Just get off your laziness.

I admit, that hitsounding mania maps is more stressing than on other game modes, but grumd has developed a hitsound copier that might enlighten the work a lot.
Also hitsounding is not so hard to learn. Just start hitsounding the first layer (melody layer), then return to the beginning, hitsound the drum layer. Be creative. See all the asian standard/taiko mappers who created cool and fancy rhythms with hitsounds. And tbh they have a way more hard time to create something fancy with just one layer being mapped. You guys can be way more creative and hitsounding is way more accessible, because you have so many options and so many room to create a cool composition of various hitsounds, samplesets or volume changes.
The Island has now really basical but awesome hitsounds, just check them out. Skalim did a nice job here. Roxas and chonicle are also very capable in doing basic but cool things, even me is trying to do the best of it.

Get out of your defensive and see it more like a chance, that we want you to create "completed mapsets" instead of a restriction. I want this mode to be awesome from the very beginning. This mandatory hitsounding would've come sooner or later anyways. And now, we still can learn and make it cool. The later we would've enforced it, the harder it would've been to make people accept it.

HanzeR wrote:

lol fuck hitsounds man like wtf dumbest rule ever lol like wtf lol

if you have nothing substantial to contribute, please leave this thread.

Tear wrote:

I don't think hitsounds are even required, many ranked maps seem to just use the same soft hit for all objects. It makes sense though since mania is supposed to follow music better than standard, so there's no need.

Auditive feedback is the most important thing, when you play a game which is based on auditive layers. And many ranked maps should've been unranked. This rule should've been enforced from the very beginning. Mania follows the music as much as Standard does. Mania just does it on various layers.

Agka wrote:

While for many of us they're not required, peppy demands all ranked maps to have a variety of hitsounds and to PM him if there are maps that must be unranked because of this.

Source:
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/169490

Unfortunately, this is not about opinions anymore.

PyaKura wrote:

Hai,

I wanted to know, is it possible to remove this rule what's the quantity of hitsounds needed for a mania map in order to be rankable ? As in do I need to hitsound nearly all of my notes, only key parts, etc... ? It's easy to do in the other modes since it's only one or two hitsound per object but I have no idea what to do with this many notes in mania.

Depending on how awesome you want your map to be, you can hitsound every note, adjust it's volume in detail and poop out the best hitsounded map in existence. If you jsut want to strive for rankability (which is imo a very very very very very poor mindset), a basic hitsounding (which is basically representing the main drumline or main melody line only) is sufficient - but must be noticeable and logically placed. (like melody hitsounds please only on the melody layer of notes)

I think the mapper should try at least to use Hitsounds. Both default and custom hitsounds. It's not easy, true, but having the whole Map no hitsounds and following the Song "hits" won't always work well. Otherwise, the mapper may ask for help. Here as example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/115715

Loctav wrote:

Not hitsounding a map is simply laziness by mapper's side. It might appear as "slowing down" to the process, but if you consider "half-arsed" maps as "done", then you are doing something wrong.
Hitsounds have always been part of osu!, osu!Taiko, osu!CtB and osu!mania. woc2006 also confirmed to me, that putting hitsounds as mandatory was his plan, too, but he wanted to introduce them one by one. (I ruined this plan, tho, that's why we had this little fight, which is sorted out now)

Not putting hitsounds has been a bad habit which has been taken over from the custom-notecharters from o2mania, lunatic rave and stepmania. Official BMS/O2jam Charts (where the game is based on) always used hitsounds (whereas "hitsound" is defined as a sound being played when the note is pressed in the right moment, which happens on bms and o2jam as in notes being "hitsounded" with noises or samples from the song itself, which results in completing the song while playing the notes).
That custom-created notecharts on other games had no hitsounds (and therefore are now somewhat considered "unnecessary") resulted out of the incapabilities of the majority of notecharters to create said hitsounds or note samples to make a complete map. And as you also know, custom BMS were accepted without any modding, any improvement and any anything, you could literally poop out the worst shit there and everyone would be "OOMGOMGOMGSOCOOL" even tho it's simply a trash chart.

If even the main developers and original creators of Beatmania deemed hitsounds as "absolutely necessary" (because I can not remember any official/authentic chart without any hitsounds), I see no reason why it is "not necessary" suddenly. Just get off your laziness.

I admit, that hitsounding mania maps is more stressing than on other game modes, but grumd has developed a hitsound copier that might enlighten the work a lot.
Also hitsounding is not so hard to learn. Just start hitsounding the first layer (melody layer), then return to the beginning, hitsound the drum layer. Be creative. See all the asian standard/taiko mappers who created cool and fancy rhythms with hitsounds. And tbh they have a way more hard time to create something fancy with just one layer being mapped. You guys can be way more creative and hitsounding is way more accessible, because you have so many options and so many room to create a cool composition of various hitsounds, samplesets or volume changes.
The Island has now really basical but awesome hitsounds, just check them out. Skalim did a nice job here. Roxas and chonicle are also very capable in doing basic but cool things, even me is trying to do the best of it.

Get out of your defensive and see it more like a chance, that we want you to create "completed mapsets" instead of a restriction. I want this mode to be awesome from the very beginning. This mandatory hitsounding would've come sooner or later anyways. And now, we still can learn and make it cool. The later we would've enforced it, the harder it would've been to make people accept it.

HanzeR wrote:

lol fuck hitsounds man like wtf dumbest rule ever lol like wtf lol

if you have nothing substantial to contribute, please leave this thread.

Tear wrote:

I don't think hitsounds are even required, many ranked maps seem to just use the same soft hit for all objects. It makes sense though since mania is supposed to follow music better than standard, so there's no need.

Auditive feedback is the most important thing, when you play a game which is based on auditive layers. And many ranked maps should've been unranked. This rule should've been enforced from the very beginning. Mania follows the music as much as Standard does. Mania just does it on various layers.

Agka wrote:

While for many of us they're not required, peppy demands all ranked maps to have a variety of hitsounds and to PM him if there are maps that must be unranked because of this.

Source:
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/169490

Unfortunately, this is not about opinions anymore.

PyaKura wrote:

Hai,

I wanted to know, is it possible to remove this rule what's the quantity of hitsounds needed for a mania map in order to be rankable ? As in do I need to hitsound nearly all of my notes, only key parts, etc... ? It's easy to do in the other modes since it's only one or two hitsound per object but I have no idea what to do with this many notes in mania.

Depending on how awesome you want your map to be, you can hitsound every note, adjust it's volume in detail and poop out the best hitsounded map in existence. If you jsut want to strive for rankability (which is imo a very very very very very poor mindset), a basic hitsounding (which is basically representing the main drumline or main melody line only) is sufficient - but must be noticeable and logically placed. (like melody hitsounds please only on the melody layer of notes)

I believe you didn't read my OP related discussions.
Please, try to make a fully customized hitsound map from the scratch (or to say, hand in an entry in the BOF competition) and you won't make such arguments like "lazy cause no hitsound" or "why beatmania have keysound and you don't have hitsound"

Loctav wrote:

Not hitsounding a map is simply laziness by mapper's side

Do you honestly think that if mappers were too "lazy" to add hitsounds they'd be proactive enough to try and change this rule?

Loctav wrote:

Tear wrote:

I don't think hitsounds are even required, many ranked maps seem to just use the same soft hit for all objects. It makes sense though since mania is supposed to follow music better than standard, so there's no need.

Auditive feedback is the most important thing, when you play a game which is based on auditive layers. And many ranked maps should've been unranked. This rule should've been enforced from the very beginning. Mania follows the music as much as Standard does. Mania just does it on various layers.

Mania doesn't "follow" the music in the same way standard does. Standard plays along the music, you need hitsounds to know what you are doing. Mania is actually simulating you playing the music. This "auditive feedback" should either be the exact same sound the note is intended to represent, or nothing at all. Making the notes produce extra sounds that aren't part of the track you are playing is enforcing the exact opposite goal that games like mania try to accomplish.

How are you suppose to make players believe they are playing that music when the notes they are pressing aren't part of the song? This enforces more the "play along" aspect which I believe is a waste. Don't get me wrong, you can make great play along maps with hitsounds, but just this simple notion isn't enough to force every single mapper to do so.


And about your references to main stream rhythm games like IIDX and DJMAX. Those are keysounds, sounds that make the keys produce music that are part of the track, not hitsounds. Completely irrelevant to any arguments made in this case. But lets look at other mainstream rhythm games, mostly Rock Band and Guitar Hero. The use no keysounds, no hitsounds. Instead they use a error sound, and dim the music until until the next successful note. Why? Because the main goal is to simulate you playing the music, un-related hit sounds play no part in this.

Loctav wrote:

If even the main developers and original creators of Beatmania deemed hitsounds as "absolutely necessary" (because I can not remember any official/authentic chart without any hitsounds), I see no reason why it is "not necessary" suddenly. Just get off your laziness.

Agka wrote:

While for many of us they're not required, peppy demands all ranked maps to have a variety of hitsounds and to PM him if there are maps that must be unranked because of this.

Source:
t/169490

Unfortunately, this is not about opinions anymore.

It's false to say that "beatmania needed hitsounds" when they were keysounds, not hitsounds. Adding to that, using THAT as an argument defending hitsounds is a false analogy.

It's not about opinions. It's about communities agreeing that hitsounds are unnecessary and osu! imposing its rules upon the mode because it feels it's the right thing.

That's okay. osu!mania isn't our home, it's peppy's game. I'm fine with that. Hitsounds go in here on ranked maps. It's fine. You don't need to make maps for ranking.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll keep doing whatever the hell I want and not getting anything ranked, since there's people that enjoy what I make anyway, even if it doesn't appeal to either osu! nor everyone. And not everyone cares about hitsounds. And you should accept that's okay.

But I'm sure Loctav will completely misread me and keep defending that hitsounds is "the right thing"<tm>. The only thing is we won't get these maps ranked lol.

lZenxl wrote:

Just going to give my point of view on hitsounding here ( I'm not a BAT but this is what I found after modding maps )
- You have to hit sound every single note, you just have to hit sound significant notes that fall in the music, don't think in depth hitsounding is needed for ranking, that'll take a lot of work ( Eg. IIDX hitsounding )
- What I mean by have to hitsound every single note ( before someone misunderstands ), is that the hitsound on every single note must be audible
- If a section is fully piano, I recommend soft-hitnormal with soft-hitclaps to keep the rhythm, nothing too bizarre as to hitsounding every single piano note

Here's my chart to help people hitsound without custom hitsounds

-- Bass, use Drum Finish
-- Low pitched Drum, use Drum Clap
-- Hats, use Soft normal or Drum normal
-- Cymbals, use Normal Finish
-- Soft Cymbals, use Soft Finish
-- Bells, use Soft whistle
-- Claps, use Normal Clap
-- Soft Claps, use Soft Clap
-- Whistles, Normal Whistle ( Not common )
-- Quiet sections or soft instruments (Eg. Piano), Soft Normal
-- Moderately loud sections or loud instruments (Eg. Electric Guitar), Normal Normal
-- Misc. Drum whistle ( Never used this before )

This is useful, thanks !


@Loctav : my mindset may be "poor" from your point of view, and I might look lazy too, but I actually never planned to add hitsounds at first. So yeah, I only use hitsounds in order to rank it. But this mapset will probably the first and the last one I'll ever try to get ranked.

blank.wav iz best hitsound.

(btw this thread was supposed to be a question but I guess we can try and turn this into a discussion/debate thread)

nvm just lock this thread, xxbidiao's thread is a better place to talk about it.

Whereas other simulations do hitsounding (taiko for example), others do key charting. you are arguing about terms.
Keysounding and hitsounding is literally the same (you hit keys. So. Well)
Whereas you understand hitsounding as an act of using the given or custom additive notes and Keysounding as the extraction of samples to use it as hitsounds, the idea is generally the same.
You add sounds to notes. This has been deemed necessary. BMS loved the Keysounding style, whereas reflec beat loves using additive sounds.
But all use hitsounds, in the one or another way. Because mainly of the auditive feedback, to make you recognize that the stuff you just pressed is according to the music (audible orientation)

As you also already mentioned, every game has its own philosophy on that. BMS has the key sound philosophy. O2mania's custom sets had the philosophy of "not necessary".
osu! has the philosophy of additive hitsounds or Keysounding (pick one)
We have higher standards than the very lenient and less quality ensuring communities. I don't want to imply that these communities were worse, they just worked under different circumstances and different philosophies.
When you guys joined this game, you joined a community and a team of admins/moderators/developers that have certain expectations on what they deem as "basic requirement for adding your creations to our officially supported collection"
You can still edit maps without hitsounds, share them and create cool stuff. Sure. But if they don't meet the basic needs to be officially supported by our given philosophy, we can not support and promote it as such. (This said support is commonly known as "ranking a map")

I can totally understand that it is difficult to get off old habits. But you are all coming from different places with different habits. You all have to arrange with the given new environment. And you have the great opportunity to contribute to this environment. But getting your maps ranked is not your right. It's a privilege. And this privilege is connected to basic needs we settled before osu!mania was even created.
Yes, you might want to explain me and all the others why mania works without hitsounds. But we all cannot agree to allowing this, when we consider keysounding or additive hitsounding as basic requirement to get your map officially ranked by us.
If you want to find your map in an official bms arcade or o2jam, you MUST keysound it (I know that. I was forced to do such stuff, too). This is the same case here.

If you want to find your map on the ranked list, you must either keysound or hitsound it. You are even free to pick. No one said, it's easy. And we are offering you any help and we try to make it good for you. But this has nothing to do with being stubborn from our side, since most of us come from said bms or o2mania communities before arriving in osu!. We all know how mania works or what it is.
But please understand that we declared this as minimum need here. Like bms and o2jam used their requirement to have key sounds as requirement, too (at least when I was mapping for them)

Loctav wrote:

Whereas other simulations do hitsounding (taiko for example), others do key charting. you are arguing about terms.
Keysounding and hitsounding is literally the same (you hit keys. So. Well)
Whereas you understand hitsounding as an act of using the given or custom additive notes and Keysounding as the extraction of samples to use it as hitsounds, the idea is generally the same.
You add sounds to notes. This has been deemed necessary. BMS loved the Keysounding style, whereas reflec beat loves using additive sounds.
But all use hitsounds, in the one or another way. Because mainly of the auditive feedback, to make you recognize that the stuff you just pressed is according to the music (audible orientation)

As you also already mentioned, every game has its own philosophy on that. BMS has the key sound philosophy. O2mania's custom sets had the philosophy of "not necessary".
osu! has the philosophy of additive hitsounds or Keysounding (pick one)
We have higher standards than the very lenient and less quality ensuring communities. I don't want to imply that these communities were worse, they just worked under different circumstances and different philosophies.
When you guys joined this game, you joined a community and a team of admins/moderators/developers that have certain expectations on what they deem as "basic requirement for adding your creations to our officially supported collection"
You can still edit maps without hitsounds, share them and create cool stuff. Sure. But if they don't meet the basic needs to be officially supported by our given philosophy, we can not support and promote it as such. (This said support is commonly known as "ranking a map")

I can totally understand that it is difficult to get off old habits. But you are all coming from different places with different habits. You all have to arrange with the given new environment. And you have the great opportunity to contribute to this environment. But getting your maps ranked is not your right. It's a privilege. And this privilege is connected to basic needs we settled before osu!mania was even created.
Yes, you might want to explain me and all the others why mania works without hitsounds. But we all cannot agree to allowing this, when we consider keysounding or additive hitsounding as basic requirement to get your map officially ranked by us.
If you want to find your map in an official bms arcade or o2jam, you MUST keysound it (I know that. I was forced to do such stuff, too). This is the same case here.

If you want to find your map on the ranked list, you must either keysound or hitsound it. You are even free to pick. No one said, it's easy. And we are offering you any help and we try to make it good for you. But this has nothing to do with being stubborn from our side, since most of us come from said bms or o2mania communities before arriving in osu!. We all know how mania works or what it is.
But please understand that we declared this as minimum need here. Like bms and o2jam used their requirement to have key sounds as requirement, too (at least when I was mapping for them)

I sadly see you
(1) Playing word tricks;
(2) Stating something is true without any reasoning.

Anything is volatile, including the philosophy of the game.
And the important aspect of the game enviromnent forming is that philosophy is decided by community members.
There is no good to force something on the community when actually the majority of them are against it.

Back to the topic, I believe if you can move your arguments slightly into how audio feedbacks would benefit the game, I think this discussion would be far healthier.

(taiko society is already been ruined, lol so don't make it a positive example)

BTW

Loctav wrote:

And as you also know, custom BMS were accepted without any modding, any improvement and any anything, you could literally poop out the worst shit there and everyone would be "OOMGOMGOMGSOCOOL" even tho it's simply a trash chart.

I treat this as an insult to these hardworking charters who released the chart to be contested by the community. (These charters do peer-review, testplay which is not an obligation,and these charts which some of them result in far higher quality than most of the maps here, and are popular like what you have said.)

The one playing word tricks is your side, constantly going like "mania isnt osu!standard" or "keysounding isnt hitsounding", even tho both follow the same logic, but are based on "wave files being triggered when hitting a key" from different origins (ones are additional samples, others are samples from the song itself)

The philosophy of what's being considered for granted or not is not solely decided by the community members. If we would go by this logic, literally everything would be allowed - and it would break the entire game.

It's a basic feature of the game. And we just want you to fulfill basic requirements. If that's too much for you, well, don't get your maps ranked then? You take this "getting your map ranked" for granted, way too much.

When I talked about custom BMS, I was not referring to all of them. But when I think of some, I just want to puke.

xxbidiao wrote:

I sadly see you [...]
(2) Stating something is true without any reasoning.
[...]
(taiko society is already been ruined, lol so don't make it a positive example)

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Loctav wrote:

Not hitsounding a map is simply laziness by mapper's side. It might appear as "slowing down" to the process, but if you consider "half-arsed" maps as "done", then you are doing something wrong.
Hitsounds have always been part of osu!, osu!Taiko, osu!CtB and osu!mania. woc2006 also confirmed to me, that putting hitsounds as mandatory was his plan, too, but he wanted to introduce them one by one. (I ruined this plan, tho, that's why we had this little fight, which is sorted out now)

Not putting hitsounds has been a bad habit which has been taken over from the custom-notecharters from o2mania, lunatic rave and stepmania. Official BMS/O2jam Charts (where the game is based on) always used hitsounds (whereas "hitsound" is defined as a sound being played when the note is pressed in the right moment, which happens on bms and o2jam as in notes being "hitsounded" with noises or samples from the song itself, which results in completing the song while playing the notes).
That custom-created notecharts on other games had no hitsounds (and therefore are now somewhat considered "unnecessary") resulted out of the incapabilities of the majority of notecharters to create said hitsounds or note samples to make a complete map. And as you also know, custom BMS were accepted without any modding, any improvement and any anything, you could literally poop out the worst shit there and everyone would be "OOMGOMGOMGSOCOOL" even tho it's simply a trash chart.

If even the main developers and original creators of Beatmania deemed hitsounds as "absolutely necessary" (because I can not remember any official/authentic chart without any hitsounds), I see no reason why it is "not necessary" suddenly. Just get off your laziness.

HanzeR wrote:

lol fuck hitsounds man like wtf dumbest rule ever lol like wtf lol

if you have nothing substantial to contribute, please leave this thread.

...Mania follows the music as much as Standard does...

How could you define those as lazy? I really can hardly bear this

You also define that as "bad behavior taken from various games". First your "Official BMS/O2jam Charts" nevef use hitsound. Please distinguish hitsound and keysound even though you think you know. "Official BMS/O2jam Charts" never add things that do not belong to the original music. Also you said some are just trash. What about yours? Or ours? lol

I do not know where you find that "absolutely necessary". You are joking.

HanzeR wrote:

lol fuck hitsounds man like wtf dumbest rule ever lol like wtf lol

that could a best expression to showing how annoying we are. Be serious and consider our words carefully.

And at last, "...Mania follows the music as much as Standard does...". Come on, they follow in different ways

richardfeder wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Keysounding and hitsounding is literally the same (you hit keys. So. Well)

You start your argument base on this lol
I do not know how to explain anymore...

I am talking about a technical aspect. Not on "the work behind creating said samples". If you have language problems in understanding of what I said, please seek out for help, since I start to believe that you don't really (language wise) understand, what I am even explaining.

A keysound gets played when a note is hit
A hitsound gets played when a note is hit, too.
Technically, they are the same. Sounds are played, when a key is hit. (If it's an extra sample or a sample from the song is pretty much regardless)

I clearly understand the difference between hitsounding and keysounding, but this is not the point of the discussion at all.

Okay better lock this thread as well, this discussion is not going anywhere. We've all stated our points of view in both threads but we can't reach an agreement. What I see here is a bunch of people (me included) arguing pointlessly. Both sides have repeated what they wanted to say a hundred times. Just lock this before someone gets muted for verbal abuse or whatever, and opinions aren't going to change no matter what anyway (Poll results ? Majority ? wdgaflol whereas on the other side : Add hitsounds because it's the game's rules and are supposed to help people with audio feedback ? lolstfu i quit kbai dis rule suxx so hard.)

We might just bring this hit/keysound topic up again sometime later (although it is very unlikely that things will change). I won't even suggest talking about in IRC or PMs since it won't lead anywhere either (insulting each other privately, weeee~).

As for me I'm just going to try and rank my current mapset because of the time I spent on it and because I don't want to throw away what other people have done to help me out with it and that'll be all. :/

richardfeder wrote:

How could you define those as lazy? I really can hardly bear this

You also define that as "bad behavior taken from various games". First your "Official BMS/O2jam Charts" nevef use hitsound. Please distinguish hitsound and keysound even though you think you know. "Official BMS/O2jam Charts" never add things that do not belong to the original music.

Loctav wrote:

A keysound gets played when a note is hit
A hitsound gets played when a note is hit, too.
Technically, they are the same. Sounds are played, when a key is hit. (If it's an extra sample or a sample from the song is pretty much regardless)

I clearly understand the difference between hitsounding and keysounding, but this is not the point of the discussion at all.

Did you read that? You did not recognize that difference?

Agka wrote:

Remember guys.
The staff always knows better!

lol

I believe whether side anyone is, we are all looking forward to growth of osu!mania.
Since it's impossible to get to an agreement (seems like from the beginning), let's wait till opportunity when we can discuss this problem further. Time would either prove or ruin these ideas.


However to the staff, I have to warn you that osu!mania is already in an extremely unhealthy nature where even ranked mappers make far more unranked things than ranked ones, both here and in other places.

I don't see the point in locking this one since it's actually viable for discussion, however poorly it's going right now. This thread is just asking how much is enough, as opposed to going against an already-established rule.

Going to clean up the trash posts though~

Sorry. At this rate the already insular community of osu! will be even more fragmented due to something as simple as not putting restrictions on hitsounding.

If your goal with this is to increase the amount of maps/charts/beatmaps/whatever that use hitsounds you probably didn't get me when I said in the other thread:

We'll keep doing whatever we want- it just won't be ranked, and we'll keep playing unranked maps, perhaps even more than the ranked ones.

I have a part two of this post, but I'm afraid my post will get deleted if I post actual criticism.

No, this is not flamebait, this is not a troll attempt. If you think it is you completely missed the point.

After careful thought, I found myself and Loctav misunderstood each other at the very beginning of the discussion. Sincere apologies to Loctav. And I'm here to clarify these and make a feasible solution on hitsounds.

The core discussion is always focusing on the philosophy collide in osu! and osu!mania.
When osu! urge need in feedback of note hitting, the osu!mania mapping and playing philosophy is always "To make the feeling that music is played by the player".
In many cases this do conflict, extremely when pianos are joined with soft drums. This leads to the whole community against the need of hitsounding on every note of non-keysounded maps.

However, Rhythmical Planet by ljqandylee (and other collaborators) http://osu.ppy.sh/s/82460 do give us a solution to this.
When some drum hitsounds are added to the music, it suits well and enhance the music.

So if you use hitsound as a feedback to enhance the music itself and to make the full music better with the feedback, this is for our philosophy!

Or to say, we remixed the song with hitsounds to make it better.

Based on this and the consensus which had been achieved months ago

Recalling what woc2006 said wrote:

Only pure instrumental notes are allowed not to have hitsounds

I provide the solution below.

Notes including, but are not limited to them, need hitsounding:
(1) Vocals. I personally recommend this because it prevents mappers (extremely beginner mappers) to place vocal notes and sliders randomly because everyone would just hear the hitsound and it's easy to compare it to vocals.
(2) Drum heavy hits. This serves the point that it would enhance the playing experience.

The exceptions are instrumental notes (defined by having pitch relevancy between the same kind of them), it's good to allow them with a silent hitsound.

So mappers can hitsound their maps partially and mute the others, making the map quality even higher without colliding the core values of osu! and osu!mania.

In this framework, only pure instrumental music (like full piano solo, without any drum hits or synthesized SE) are allowed not to have any hitsound. However I think this is another thing that we can discuss further because:
(1) We don't have one yet, which is not keysounded and are pure instrumental song;
(2) Before anyone who tries to make such map, we can suggest him/her to make a fully keysounded map because either the map has a synthesized file that can be easily translated into keysounded charts, or it's not a good choice to map such music because of improvisation. And it's the only kind of music that can be made keysounded in reasonable effort without author's support.

What do you think?

Another thing that I deem posting another reply is, hitsound can be easily manipulated to make overmap "reasonable".
The logic is simple - "I have a hitsound here, so the hitsound is combined into the music. Since there are such hitsound, it is OK to note here."

A good example would be, in Loctav's map Ende https://osu.ppy.sh/s/79132, we have a triple note group at 00:47:976 (47976|3) - .
He put 3 notes here despite of the music having the same thing with the former part, where 00:47:376 (47376|6) - only have 2 notes.

He solve the potentially overmap problem - simply by putting 2 whistles both on 00:47:976 (47976|4,47976|3) - .
The same thing happens throughout the map, making the map full of artificial sounds and difficulty. In another word - It's heavily overmapped.
Actually this could be easily figured out when hitsounds are wiped out!

It's not a good solution to widen the usage of hitsound to an extent of osu!, because overmapping is far more intolerable in osu!mania than osu!.

xxbidiao wrote:

After careful thought, I found myself and Loctav misunderstood each other at the very beginning of the discussion. Sincere apologies to Loctav. And I'm here to clarify these and make a feasible solution on hitsounds.

The core discussion is always focusing on the philosophy collide in osu! and osu!mania.
When osu! urge need in feedback of note hitting, the osu!mania mapping and playing philosophy is always "To make the feeling that music is played by the player".
In many cases this do conflict, extremely when pianos are joined with soft drums. This leads to the whole community against the need of hitsounding on every note of non-keysounded maps.

However, Rhythmical Planet by ljqandylee (and other collaborators) http://osu.ppy.sh/s/82460 do give us a solution to this.
When some drum hitsounds are added to the music, it suits well and enhance the music.

So if you use hitsound as a feedback to enhance the music itself and to make the full music better with the feedback, this is for our philosophy!

Or to say, we remixed the song with hitsounds to make it better.

Based on this and the consensus which had been achieved months ago

Recalling what woc2006 said wrote:

Only pure instrumental notes are allowed not to have hitsounds

I provide the solution below.

Notes including, but are not limited to them, need hitsounding:
(1) Vocals. I personally recommend this because it prevents mappers (extremely beginner mappers) to place vocal notes and sliders randomly because everyone would just hear the hitsound and it's easy to compare it to vocals.
(2) Drum heavy hits. This serves the point that it would enhance the playing experience.

The exceptions are instrumental notes (defined by having pitch relevancy between the same kind of them), it's good to allow them with a silent hitsound.

So mappers can hitsound their maps partially and mute the others, making the map quality even higher without colliding the core values of osu! and osu!mania.

In this framework, only pure instrumental music (like full piano solo, without any drum hits or synthesized SE) are allowed not to have any hitsound. However I think this is another thing that we can discuss further because:
(1) We don't have one yet, which is not keysounded and are pure instrumental song;
(2) Before anyone who tries to make such map, we can suggest him/her to make a fully keysounded map because either the map has a synthesized file that can be easily translated into keysounded charts, or it's not a good choice to map such music because of improvisation. And it's the only kind of music that can be made keysounded in reasonable effort without author's support.

What do you think?

This sounds much more reasonable than what has been originally requested. I can agree with hitsounding drums and other sounds which aren't part of the
(main) melody and don't follow pitch, but notes which are parts of the main chorus and are arranged in a certain order should be free of hitsounds.

On hitsounds as a whole:

Now more on topic. I hope this discussion isn't going to lead to some sort of hard rules on where you should/must hitsound something. Rough guidelines should be in place, but it should ultimately be up to the mapper/modders/BATs to work out the hitsounds and determine whether a map meets the requirements for ranking, without resorting to reading out a list and looking for possible paces the mapper might have broken some rule.

Also, thanks for not closing the thread Graven. I still think that much of the discussion here is still somewhat offtopic in terms of the "what is enough" question, but I also feel that discussions like this should be allowed (provided the discussion stays civil, which seems to be a hard thing for people to manage).

Also, is it just me or is xxbidiao's English getting better?

Bobbias wrote:

Also, thanks for not closing the thread Graven. I still think that much of the discussion here is still somewhat offtopic in terms of the "what is enough" question, but I also feel that discussions like this should be allowed (provided the discussion stays civil, which seems to be a hard thing for people to manage).
Also, is it just me or is xxbidiao's English getting better?

To be honest, i don't see the point on having these discussions roll on. Because from what i've seen so far every single time this topic comes up it will never have both sides to agree. I honestly gave up with this topic since there's nothing else to talk about anymore. I got the message, so yeah. It's your game, we don't have the rights to shape up. Besides, the entire community doesn't have a single problem with it. So why bother?

Good luck.

I'm struggling to make my English better, so if you have anything to ask about what my meaning is, please figure it out!

I have checked the ranking criteria, which says:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

You must use hitsounds. Without these, things get way too monotonous as you are throwing away one of the main elements of variation present in mapping. You don't need to place them on every note (and are discouraged from doing so), but they must at least be frequently heard when playing.

So I don't think only hitsounding notes that is intended to be highlighted (And is of reasonable numbers that it is frequently heard) is going to conflict with this law.
You see, the ranking criteria itself is discouraging hitsounding every note.

Maybe we can discuss further things base on this.
Anyway, some consensus is always better than nothing-at-all

There is a communication problem, since I never fought for hitsounding every note.
Just a basic hitsounding is required.

Loctav wrote:

Also you are not supposed to hitsound every single detailed note.
You are supposed to create a basic rhythm/basic song following with the hitsounds.

@Agka: As someone who is here since 5 years, you should have had learned out of the mistakes from the past:

Bobbias wrote:

[...] I hope this discussion isn't going to lead to some sort of hard rules on where you should/must hitsound something. Rough guidelines should be in place, [...]

Here are people who support this idea and those who are against it. Find a consensus which works the best.

Loctav wrote:

There is a communication problem, since I never fought for hitsounding every note.
Just a basic hitsounding is required.

So what about hitsound-normal.wav?

It is critical that is it OK to have hitsound-normal.wav silenced when hitsound can be heard frequently.(Or to say, the map is reasonably hitsounded)
See, you never said "silence", you use words like "leaving out".

And I have talked to many BATs and admins and they either say "Every note should have hitsound" or have no idea about it before, that's why we start the discussion both in several month ago and in recent days.

In Osu!, when a mapper said to "leave out hitsound for a circle", it implies that the circle use hitsound-normal.wav.
Since hitsound-normal.wav have drum sounds, which doesn't fit on most kind of rhythms which is frequently mapped on osu!mania, many mappers expressed theiir concern on having such sound ruining the song.
When silence of hitsound-normal.wav is allowed, I think the mappers would find their highest priority request of not tying a drum sound to piano fulfilled, and osu!mania would also suit the philosophy of osu!.

Basically allowing silence.wav for the default hitsound ? (replacing hitsound-normal.wav) So we'd just have to place the other, wanted, hitsounds, right ?

PyaKura wrote:

Basically allowing silence.wav for the default hitsound ? (replacing hitsound-normal.wav) So we'd just have to place the other, wanted, hitsounds, right ?

Yes, that's the best solution so far I think both mappers and moderation team would agree on.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Also you are not supposed to hitsound every single detailed note.
You are supposed to create a basic rhythm/basic song following with the hitsounds.

@Agka: As someone who is here since 5 years, you should have had learned out of the mistakes from the past:

Bobbias wrote:

[...] I hope this discussion isn't going to lead to some sort of hard rules on where you should/must hitsound something. Rough guidelines should be in place, [...]

Here are people who support this idea and those who are against it. Find a consensus which works the best.

My point being quote related.
(You sure you're sending that to me?)

Sp3ct3r_2k11 wrote:

To be honest, i don't see the point on having these discussions roll on. Because from what i've seen so far every single time this topic comes up it will never have both sides to agree.

And

Loctav wrote:

There is a communication problem, since I never fought for hitsounding every note.
Just a basic hitsounding is required.

Previous positions were "Hitsounding, every note with at least a default sound, not being able to mute any sound at all, with at least some variety however basic it is" vs "Silent hitsounds allowed (in the whole map), but encouraged to use non-silent"

xxbidao's new idea is "Force hitsounding but allow silent hitsounds"

The way I understand it.

To be honest

xxbidiao wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

Basically allowing silence.wav for the default hitsound ? (replacing hitsound-normal.wav) So we'd just have to place the other, wanted, hitsounds, right ?

Yes, that's the best solution so far I think both mappers and moderation team would agree on.

IS very tempting to me. Very, very tempting. Allow for default silent hitsounds and usage of hitsounds for enhancement rather than auditive feedback
since a lot of the players on the higher levels use tactile/visual feedback above auditive.

I can see a point in forcing all objects to have a sound on lower difficulty levels, but I'd like this freedom in higher levels.

Okay.
It seems like you misunderstood the rule a bit.
-Keysounding is EXCELLENT
-Overdoing hitsounds without a vital improvement of the game play experience (e.g. placing this ugly whistles everywhere) is NOT OKAY
-Having completely silent notes is NOT OKAY
-Having ALL of the notes being a quiet but noticeable hitsound is NOT OKAY
-Having the MAJORITY of the notes being a quiet but noticeable hitsound, whereas every now and then you use a different hitsound to support the general rhythm and/or the pitch of the song is THE MINIMUM REQUIRMENT AND RANKABLE.

no one ever wanted you to put a spread variety of hitsounds on all existing notes when it's not needed. Just a basic hitsounding is required.

Don't use silent hitsounds. Use quiet ones. Like hitsoft-normal.wav
They must be audible. But not overlaying the entire song to an extend that you ruin the whole track

The issue lies in the misunderstanding as in what you understand as "every note must have hitsound"
This just means that EVERY NOTE MUST GIVE AN AUDIBLE FEEDBACK WHEN BEING PRESSED.
Also it means thst YOU CAN NOT USE ONLY ONE AND THE SAME HITSOUND ACROSS ALL MAPS. YOU MUST USE AT LEAST 2 DIFFERENT ONES IN A NOTICEABLE MANNER (follow the basic rhythm, pitch relevancy, whatever works)
You don't need to add a drum line to a piano song. You only need to put some soft whistles on some notes to show, that these notes are following the pitch of the piano (tone height increases/decreases)

Like I said, you completely misunderstand the term "HITSOUND"

Are we allowed to use less than 30% volume for really quiet parts of some songs ? Because even with 5% volume hitsounds are still audible in the said parts.

Sure. Audibility counts. If it's audible, it's allowed.

Alright, how acceptable is the amount of hitsounding on this? https://osu.ppy.sh/s/132252 Not the patterns of hitsounds or anything but the amount I used.

I finally decided to spoilerbox this. However, Loctav, please read it. Thank you!


So back to the discussion, the audible clause can be easily manipulated by moderators.
When a moderator like a map -> "5%/10%/20% is just OK - I can hear this from earphones clearly, maybe some of players can't. That doesn't matter. Ranked!"
When a moderator dislike a map -> "I can't hear 5%/10%/20% hitsound with my ear. I would ignore anyone saying that the hitsound is audible then unrank this map."
I'm highly concerned of such attacks in the final stage of a map getting ranked or even after a map getting ranked. The acceptable level of everyone on minimum loudness can vary substantially (Not only on the level what they think, but to extent their ears can hear), which means a certain sound may be treated as ruining the whole music to one player but completely unnoticeable to another one.

Before such thing become a bargain like "30% too high no -> 20% too low no -> 28% too high no" (And surely there are no universal standard because the music matters), why not just allow mappers to silence these notes when they just want it? Keep in mind we are going to hitsound the map reasonably, where silencing only one kind of note is not against the spirit of the osu! of notifying players.

The starting point why people are against this rule is they find things like hit-normal annoying which cover the piano thing, NOT the hitsound on downbeat or something else that can enhance the music outcome. If players still find it annoying in one way or another and mute all hitsounds, our work on existing hitsound on significant beats are wasted.



@Agka, I agree on you of the point of tactile/visual feedback due to the nature of osu!mania which is multi-key playing & diversity on pattern itself providing enough information on tactile feedback unlike in osu! standard. This should serve well at least as an addition to hitsounds.