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Suzumetune - Otome [Taiko]

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Topic Starter
MMzz
This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on Saturday, July 20, 2013 at 9:56:56 AM

Artist: Suzumetune
Title: Otome
Source: Cytus
Tags: The Prologue
BPM: 147
Filesize: 4836kb
Play Time: 03:00
Difficulties Available:
  1. Basic (2.2 stars, 262 notes)
  2. Futsuu (4.36 stars, 467 notes)
  3. Kantan (3.63 stars, 367 notes)
  4. Muzukashii (4.81 stars, 692 notes)
  5. Oni (4.94 stars, 840 notes)
Download: Suzumetune - Otome
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
---------------
A relaxing map for a relaxing song. I hope you enjoy it!
Oni - 100%
Muzukashii - 100%
Futsuu - 100%
Kantan - 100%
Basic - 100%
Mods:
CoroQuetz
Mithost
Dolphin
HeatKai
Stefan
those
kanpakyin
lolcubes
Coro
Hi MMzz~
All are suggestions unless in red.

[General]
Disable countdown and letterboxing

[Kantan]
00:14:558 (21) - k? since there's a snare hit in the music
01:23:130 (14) - ^

[Futsuu]
00:55:782 (140,141,142) - maybe use dd k? to follow the vocal pitch
02:04:354 (327,328,329) - ^

[Muzukashii]
can't find anything out of place

[Oni]
can't find anything out of place

sorry MMzz, your map is really good from the start, I couldn't find much fault with it.
good luck~
Topic Starter
MMzz

CoroQuetz wrote:

Hi MMzz~
All are suggestions unless in red.

[General]
Disable countdown and letterboxing Omg I always forget to do this. ;_; Fixed.

[Kantan]
00:14:558 (21) - k? since there's a snare hit in the music Added.
01:23:130 (14) - ^ Added.

[Futsuu]
00:55:782 (140,141,142) - maybe use dd k? to follow the vocal pitch I can agree with you on this, but I would like to keep it k k d to be consistent with the muzu and oni, they all have the same notes at that part of the music. :D. Although, instead of d d k k k d, I could make the d d k, d d d. In short, your suggestion inspired me to change it around a little. lol
02:04:354 (327,328,329) - ^ ^

[Muzukashii]
can't find anything out of place

[Oni]
can't find anything out of place

sorry MMzz, your map is really good from the start, I couldn't find much fault with it.
good luck~
Thank you for the mod!
Niko-nyan
star
Mithos
From the Productive Mod Team's Queue

I will color any major things like difficulty faults or unrankable sections. Everything else is pure suggestion to make the map 'feel' better to the player. Obviously, you get to choose which edits to make (if any).

Kantan
Great Kantan difficulty! Nothing to complain about here, just remember possible pitch relevance in lyrics and instruments. Higher notes = kat, lower notes = don. :)

Futsuu
00:11:292 - Odd not to have a kat here.
00:17:823 - Same as above
00:22:721 (48,49,50) - Turn this pattern into kd dk to avoid awkward feeling pauses.
00:29:251 (67,68,69) - Same as above; look out for other instances of this.

Muzukashii
Not very many problems here. To be honest, I only have one thing to bring up.
01:31:088 (343,344,345,346) - The player might get a little flustered when they have to play ddd D like that, because one finger is going to have to play at 1/4 speed despite the break. Might want to turn it into ddk D or ddd K.
02:11:904 (507,508,509,510,511,512) - Same as above ^

Oni
May I suggest an SV increase? I find fun in maps with faster scroll speeds when they have this kind of feel to them.
00:13:537 (45,46,47,48,49,50) - Something about this pattern feels odd to play, mostly the fact that there is no note between 47 and 48.
00:20:068 (79,80,81,82,83,84) - Same as above.
Other instances of this pattern play fine for some reason. Feel free to ignore this (as it is probably something to do with me being #5000ish in taiko)
00:33:537 (44) - Making this a kat really brings out the ddk kkd pattern directly after it, plus it plays nice.
00:40:273 (16,17,18) - Add some variance here like you did in the first half of this section to keep the pattern from getting repetitive. I suggest dkd.
00:45:170 (39,40,41) - Same as above
00:52:517 (75) - Moving this pattern back two ticks makes a really cool pattern that makes the map more fun.
00:53:945 - Maybe put a kat here to increase difficulty and keep the hands moving?
00:58:843 - This pause feels a little weird to (not) play. Possibly fill it in with a note or do what we did with (75)?
01:00:476 - Same as above
01:07:007 (146) - Making this a kat brings out the finish more and feels a bit better to play.
01:31:088 (261,262,263,264) - [Insert obligatory 1/6 stream complaint here]. Honestly though, it feels out of place.
02:06:088 - Possible don here for consistency?
02:28:231 (13,14,15,16) - [insert another obligatory 1/6 stream complaint here]
02:29:456 (21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33) - I feel like something more complicated than straight 1/2 notes can fit in here (atleast until the finishes).
Topic Starter
MMzz

Mithost wrote:

From the Productive Mod Team's Queue

I will color any major things like difficulty faults or unrankable sections. Everything else is pure suggestion to make the map 'feel' better to the player. Obviously, you get to choose which edits to make (if any).

Kantan
Great Kantan difficulty! Nothing to complain about here, just remember possible pitch relevance in lyrics and instruments. Higher notes = kat, lower notes = don. :) I don't map to pitch. I map to a vocal's rhythm.

Futsuu
00:11:292 - Odd not to have a kat here. Why?
00:17:823 - Same as above
00:22:721 (48,49,50) - Turn this pattern into kd dk to avoid awkward feeling pauses. There isn't an awkward pause though? The rhythm is still present within the notes, but dumbed down a little within the vocal's rhythm for the sake of the noobies.
00:29:251 (67,68,69) - Same as above; look out for other instances of this.

Muzukashii
Not very many problems here. To be honest, I only have one thing to bring up.
01:31:088 (343,344,345,346) - The player might get a little flustered when they have to play ddd D like that, because one finger is going to have to play at 1/4 speed despite the break. Might want to turn it into ddk D or ddd K. Don't you mean 1/2 speed? Breaking down the pattern neither hand go past 1/2 playing speed in terms of 1/4 patterns.
02:11:904 (507,508,509,510,511,512) - Same as above ^ This doesn't even fit in the same lines you placed for the argument, because 02:11:496 (505,506) - work as an upbeat/quick paced rhythm that help lead into a longer pelt of notes. Opposed to no notes leading a small 1/4 that is sort of present in the music. Sort of because this is only 1/4 because the Oni has the actual 1/6 roll in the music.

Oni
May I suggest an SV increase? I find fun in maps with faster scroll speeds when they have this kind of feel to them. Use hardrock.
00:13:537 (45,46,47,48,49,50) - Something about this pattern feels odd to play, mostly the fact that there is no note between 47 and 48.
00:20:068 (79,80,81,82,83,84) - Same as above.
Other instances of this pattern play fine for some reason. Feel free to ignore this (as it is probably something to do with me being #5000ish in taiko)
00:33:537 (44) - Making this a kat really brings out the ddk kkd pattern directly after it, plus it plays nice. The drums or vocal rhythm doesn't support it.
00:40:273 (16,17,18) - Add some variance here like you did in the first half of this section to keep the pattern from getting repetitive. I suggest dkd.
00:45:170 (39,40,41) - Same as above What is wrong with using some repetition? That is how music works.
00:52:517 (75) - Moving this pattern back two ticks makes a really cool pattern that makes the map more fun. Doesn't match the song's rhythm.
00:53:945 - Maybe put a kat here to increase difficulty and keep the hands moving? ^
00:58:843 - This pause feels a little weird to (not) play. Possibly fill it in with a note or do what we did with (75)? ^
01:00:476 - Same as above
01:07:007 (146) - Making this a kat brings out the finish more and feels a bit better to play. I have been tweeking the kiai for a bit and this is part of what I plan on doing already.
01:31:088 (261,262,263,264) - [Insert obligatory 1/6 stream complaint here]. Honestly though, it feels out of place. Listen to the music?e
02:06:088 - Possible don here for consistency? No. Unlike the part before this with the similar rhythm, this section builds up and climaxes. I wanted to bring that out by slowly adding in the 1/4 opposed to the previous section.
02:28:231 (13,14,15,16) - [insert another obligatory 1/6 stream complaint here]
02:29:456 (21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33) - I feel like something more complicated than straight 1/2 notes can fit in here (atleast until the finishes). I have been tweeking this section a lot too, I hate how it is right now.
Thanks
Dolphin
Hey MMzz, I am also modding this because M4M and stuffs ;A;
I guess I a also came from the Productive Modding Team! :P

I am glad to see more songs from Cytus on osu! Cytus is a fun game :D

[General]
  • Odd BG Dimensions. Doesn't matter too much though.
    I didn't find anything else technical.
[Oni]
  • 01:04:966 (136) - Change this to kat, you can hear the drum ride.
    02:13:537 (134) - ^
    02:20:068 (169) - ^
    02:30:884 (28) - ^ This one is even more easier to hear than the previous mentioned. lol.
    02:33:945 (41) - ^
[Muzukashii]
  • Couldn't find anything ;A;
[Futsuu]
  • Nothing here either. Very good difficulty though!
[Kantan]
  • This is the best Kantan diff I have ever seen. Nothing to be done here. :I
I only found some minor stuff on Oni. They're all suggestions. I hope I was somewhat helpful.
If this mod was not helpful, you can decline my M4M request. It's up to you.

Good Luck!
Topic Starter
MMzz

Dolphin wrote:

Hey MMzz, I am also modding this because M4M and stuffs ;A;
I guess I a also came from the Productive Modding Team! :P

I am glad to see more songs from Cytus on osu! Cytus is a fun game :D

[General]
  • Odd BG Dimensions. Doesn't matter too much though. I will probably end up trying to resize it to something reasonable, but this is the actual official BG. I woner why the released it in such a weird dimension. ;_;
    I didn't find anything else technical.
[Oni]
  • 01:04:966 (136) - Change this to kat, you can hear the drum ride.
    02:13:537 (134) - ^
    02:20:068 (169) - ^
    02:30:884 (28) - ^ This one is even more easier to hear than the previous mentioned. lol.
    02:33:945 (41) - ^
[Muzukashii]
  • Couldn't find anything ;A;
[Futsuu]
  • Nothing here either. Very good difficulty though!
[Kantan]
  • This is the best Kantan diff I have ever seen. Nothing to be done here. :I
I only found some minor stuff on Oni. They're all suggestions. I hope I was somewhat helpful.
If this mod was not helpful, you can decline my M4M request. It's up to you.

Good Luck!
I will keep some of those kats in mind when I tweek the kiai some more. It is true they are there, but there are also kick drums there that are a little more powerful. But there can be room for a few little variations. Thanks!
HeatKai
[General]
  1. Untick the letterbox.
  2. That is a weird size for bg.
  3. If you check AIBat, all diffs got unsnapped circles o_o you should check it but AImod doesn't say it.
[Oni]
  1. 00:04:966 () - add a circle here?
  2. 00:06:598 (11) - add finish here maybe? there's cymbal sound.
  3. 01:06:394 (142,143,144) - this triplet sounds better if starts from 01:06:190 (141) - and 01:06:598 (144) - change this to d and this 01:06:802 (145) - to k
  4. 01:12:925 (177,178,179) - ^
  5. 02:14:762 (139,140,141,142) - ^
  6. 02:21:292 (174,175,176,177) - ^
[Muzukashii]
  1. 00:06:598 (6) - same as oni
  2. wow can't find anything @_@
[Futsuu]
  1. 00:10:884 (15) - I rather see this circle at 00:10:680 () - it sounds really weird, not having it on the main sound.
  2. 00:17:415 (33) - ^
  3. 00:48:843 (121) - I really like to see this as k, ddd sounds really weird @@
  4. 00:55:374 (139) - ^
  5. 01:19:456 (205) - ^
  6. 01:25:986 (223) - ^
  7. 01:31:088 () - add a circle here maybe?
  8. 01:57:415 (309) - I really like to see this as k, ddd sounds really weird @@
  9. 02:03:946 (327) - ^
[Kantan]
  1. 00:21:088 (35) - change this to k sounds better and you can let this as consistent with pattern kkkd before.
  2. 01:29:660 (28) - ^
  3. @____@
too good
Stefan
haelo, m4m timeu

[Kantan]
00:33:741 (26,27,28) - I am really against three 1/2 Circles in a row for a Kantan Diff. I mean it's your decision but I see that Newcomers will find this horrible hard to play because they won't deal with the Speed - well it's 147 but there are some people around.. puh.. - and will have very often at least one 100's here. That's going for the other parts too.
00:54:558 (44) - Remove it. 11 Circles in a row is too much here.
02:03:130 (44) - ^
00:56:394 (49) - k here?
02:04:966 (49) - ^

Looks good so far, just think about it twice if the three 1/2 Circle in a row are really a good idea for a Kantan. because I find it bad.

[Futsuu]
brb
Topic Starter
MMzz
Thank you both for your mods, I took almost everything. <3

@Stefan
[Kantan]
00:33:741 (26,27,28) - I am really against three 1/2 Circles in a row for a Kantan Diff. I mean it's your decision but I see that Newcomers will find this horrible hard to play because they won't deal with the Speed - well it's 147 but there are some people around.. puh.. - and will have very often at least one 100's here. That's going for the other parts too.
00:54:558 (44) - Remove it. 11 Circles in a row is too much here.
02:03:130 (44) - ^
I didn't take these because I'm going to get more people to test and see if you are correct, so I will be keeping these in mind!

@HeatKai
01:06:394 (142,143,144) - this triplet sounds better if starts from 01:06:190 (141) - and 01:06:598 (144) - change this to d and this 01:06:802 (145) - to k
01:12:925 (177,178,179) - ^
02:14:762 (139,140,141,142) - ^
02:21:292 (174,175,176,177) - ^
I didn't take these because I just love how this triplet plays, it is really my favorite part about the map. ;_; Your suggestions plays well too, though. Thank you for all the other wonderful suggestions though.
those
Kantan 00:53:741 (42) - and 02:02:313 (42) - delete these; can provide a call and response rhythm pattern while maintaining low enough difficulty level.
Kantan and Futts HP5. HP4 makes you pass incredibly early.

Edit:
Edit2: dafuq you moved it to works in progress
popner
those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

We should let the map stay on current situation until this is settled. Any BAT please do not do redundant things.
Topic Starter
MMzz

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

We should let the map stay on current situation until this is settled. Any BAT please do not do redundant things.
I have to self pop over some 1/6 that got messed up when resnapping all notes, so there is no need to make a big deal about this. :P
those

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?
What's wrong with me bubbling a taiko only map when I clearly know what I'm doing?
HeatKai
one suggestion in oni. It's good, bubbled!

SPOILER
11:10 MMzz: yo
11:10 those: yo
11:11 those: what happen
11:11 MMzz: you don't mind if Heatkai rebubbles otome
11:11 MMzz: Oh uh
11:11 MMzz: there was 1/6
11:11 MMzz: but it was 1/4 with notes ontop of each other
11:11 MMzz: because I did a resnap all
11:11 MMzz: so I had to pop
11:11 those: then it's fine lol
11:11 MMzz: ok cool
Zweib
:)
。。。
kanpakyin
okay, I finally decide to mod this since there are no more other bubbles I can check ._. A long and detailed mod is coming.

still modding it
[Kantan]
  1. HP -1 for this diff?
  2. hum, here is something from two another experienced taiko mapper which I want to quote it to you. I know you are an experienced mapper, but I still want to quote this to you:

    lepidopodus wrote:

    - Generally too hard for Easy. Currently there are too many 1/2 patterns with don/kat alterations. Make them to minimum first.
    - Also, try use less don/kat alterations even it is 1/1 patterns.
    - I usually recommend to have minimum 1.5-beat-long gap between drum roll/spinner and the next note in Kantan since switching between them is quite hard for beginners.
  3. OnosakiHito wrote:

    A Kantan diff. has mostly monton 1/1 notes with less kat variation, while kiai has just some 1/2 notes. But here you have used allready muzukashii level patterns which a beginner can't deal with. Also there are too many finisher in the Kantan.
    Somehow I found what they said is reasonable, and this kantan is quite diffiuclt for newbie, why not make it more newbie-friendly? If you don't want to simplify this diff, I will suggest an alternative method to you: you can rename this diff as Futsuu, and then make a new Kantan. Also, aabc do agree with this.
    And the following is some pattern and rhythm mod:
  4. 00:10:884 (13) - I would suggest changing this note to kat to fit this (00:13:741 (19,20,21,22) - ) pattern and to reduce the dificulty of this diff. (and it fits the music so don't worry ._.) I know you may want to make some variation here but consider it is a kantan, we should avoid doing that and try to make this diff as a newbie-friendly diff right? :)
  5. 00:17:415 (27) - ^
  6. 00:43:129 (18,19) - A rhythm suggestion here. I think you can move these 2 notes to 00:42:925 - and 00:43:333 - as you are following the vocal at 00:41:496 - to 00:42:517 - . You can remain your current pattern as it fits the pitch pretty well :p
  7. 00:57:415 (49) - I think you can consider a big kat here because of the high pitch. Big kat can fits the music quite well and it can make the pattern more consistent with 01:00:680 (55,56,57,58) - . (and this also can reduce the difficulty, kill three birds with one stone <_<)
  8. 01:08:435 (73,74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick.
  9. 01:22:721 (13) - I would suggest using d here to make a strong contrast to previous part. (what I suggest to use at 00:10:884 (13) -)
  10. 01:30:068 (29) - How about to consider a strong kat here? The reason of using big note is to emphasize the strong downbeat there. The reason of using kat is to fit the pitch. Since you used a big don at 01:31:496 (30) - , a big kat there will make a contrast to show the difference and make it more impressive imo.
  11. 01:38:639 (45,46) - Similar to 00:43:129 (18,19) -
  12. 02:14:558 (67) - I personally think that it would be much better if you could place this note at 02:14:353 - because I don't hear there is any drum at 02:14:558 - but 02:14:353 - instead. (You may consider adding a note at 02:14:762 - after doing this if you want to rename this to Futsuu.)
  13. 02:17:211 (74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick. (This is fine in Futsuu)
  14. 02:34:965 (20) - Same as 02:14:558 (67) -
  15. 02:37:618 (27) - Same as 02:17:211 (74) -

[Futsuu]
  1. 00:11:292 (16) - I would suggest changing this note to kat here because I saw you were following the drum in this whole part so I thought it would be better if you can follow the drum here.
  2. 00:17:823 (35) - ^Same
  3. 00:23:333 - I think you can add a note here (personally prefer don here) so that you can follow the vocal here. (As dk fits the music pretty well here imo)
  4. 00:25:986 (60) - How about changing this to kat to follow the drum sound there?
  5. 00:29:864 - Same as 00:23:333-
  6. 00:36:394 - ^ (I won't list this again.)
  7. 00:39:251 (97) - If you want to try to do some variation here then I would suggest changing this note to kat. This can follow the pitch change from 00:39:047 - to 00:39:251 - instead of following the drum.
  8. 00:42:925 - Same as 00:23:333-
  9. 00:45:782 (116) - Same as 00:39:251 (97) - *(or you can make it to kd to accentuate the difference between the previous dk pattern and this kd pattern.)
  10. 00:53:537 - Personal feeling only. I would say adding a note here would be great. After that, changing this note (00:53:741 (137) - ) to kat.
  11. 01:02:517 (163) - I have a suggestion here. I would say changing this to big kat is better because there is pitch change between (162)- and (163)- a kat can fit the pitch perfectly. But I am thinking if that is too difficult for futsuu <_< well, I leave this to you.
  12. 01:30:068 (240) - How about using a kat here?
  13. 02:28:843 (394) - A big kat here?
  14. 02:31:700 (405,406) - I would suggest changing these two notes to big kat in order to follow the pitch or you can only change (406)- to big kat so that it can be emphasized.

Will finish this mod asap.
OnosakiHito

those wrote:

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?
What's wrong with me bubbling a taiko only map when I clearly know what I'm doing?
Say that again.


Anyway, kanpakyin quoted me a bit wrong, since this was for another map I modded before.
Here the right one:

SPOILER
14:16 OnosakiHito: Okay, so let's see.
14:21 OnosakiHito: As I said, I had a talk with MMzz about how to consider on a keyboard(not drum) based game the difficulties. Only difference in opinion I can see right now is view of how to map a Kantan.
14:21 OnosakiHito: Current Kantan is to me rather like an easier Futsuu.
14:23 OnosakiHito: I would even say it fits perfect as Futsuu, patterns are Futsuu like and there are different spaces in the difficultie. Sometimes it is hard to avoid having different spacings, but here it is easy to prevent that.
14:23 OnosakiHito: Example: 00:09:251 (9,10,11,12,13,14,15) -
14:23 kanpakyin: so what I suggested in my modpost is to rename the diff to futsuu and then make a new kantan
14:23 OnosakiHito: First there is a different spacing, and then there shows up a (for Kantan) difficult pattern.
14:25 OnosakiHito: Overall the patterns are really nice. But too long and contain too many different alternate of notes.
14:25 OnosakiHito: Yes, I would suggest the same.
14:25 OnosakiHito: Making a new Kantan and renameing this one to Futsuu. But let me see first how the other diffs are mapped.
14:26 OnosakiHito: Sometimes this is a bit tricky, since it can come up that another diff becomes too easy.
14:27 kanpakyin: yea
14:28 OnosakiHito: I would consider the current Futsuu as a demanding one. Sometimes it seems like an easier Muzukashii.
14:28 OnosakiHito: 01:17:007~01:30:068 - For a Futsuu these patterns are too long.
14:30 OnosakiHito: Muzukashii is fine. Could be also an easy Oni. oox would fit well to the difficulie naming.
14:31 OnosakiHito: So yes, I suggest the same. Just another Kantan and everything should be fine.

So yes. Overall nice map-set. Just add another Kantan and everything should be fine.
Loctav
those's bubble has been revoked. Please do not bubble game modes you are officially uncommon with (refer to internal regulations here)
Shohei Ohtani

OnosakiHito wrote:

Say that again.
Damn.

But those has quite a bit of taiko ranked maps and stuff. So like, idunno, considering that there aren't any taiko-specific BATs, it seems ok from a normal-user perspective.

idunno, though, and it'd not worth making the thread into a giant discussion or anything.

Go go MMzz woo woo.
Topic Starter
MMzz
Sorry to say I don't agree that this kantan is too hard, and I dont believe in making things obnoxiously easy. I will look at your suggestions though, KPY. I've been mapping kantan like this for quite some time and it has been successful. And the terms of making kantan/futsuu etc us too ambiguous and should be discussed more before we can have any set details to what is too hard. "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is pretty silly and subjective. There needs to be more detail and facts on what said players can and cant do.

  1. Kantan needs 1/2 and slightly heavy 1/1 with rhythm in color changes. This prepares and educates a new player for futsuu. Of course a new player won't learn this instantly, it will take them some time to learn. They will not learn off a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes.
  2. Then Futsuu, where it needs to be heavier in the use of 1/2 and a more constant 1/1, basically a more difficult version of the kantan, with the song's rhythm of course. It then prepares the player for the heavy useage of 1/2 that is to come in Muzukashii, but alas, that is always a huge step no matter what you do!
  3. In Muzukashii you have the almost constant use of 1/2 patterns and introduction of 1/4, this prepares the player for what is to come in Oni.
  4. Oni is a little too ambiguous to write about, because it can go from super insane to pretty average, like this map. But in terms of this mapset, the Oni is a combination of everything you have learned throughout the difficulties, in the song's format!
This isn't to be used for all mapsets. This is how THIS MAP, works. Other maps are different, you can put them into one theory like this.
The only room for another difficulty is something BELOW Kantan, and that isn't happening because that is just a waste of time for me.

Anyways. Noobies can't do everything on their first try, they need to learn patterns and rhythm, that is what I supply. I don't supply a obnoxious Kantan made in 5 minutes that is all 1/1. I take my time to analyze the rhythm and put it in the most simple format available so it is easy, enjoyable, and education for someone who isn't very experienced in this game. I hope you can respect that, and observe my difficulty curve.

Some plays because I asked around in #modhelp: These are all sightreads.

Somehow the more plays the worse it gets. lol.
aabc271
Just some response to MMzz's post. I do agree with kpy and ono that the current kantan is more like a futsuu instead, and a real kantan is missing.

MMzz wrote:

And the terms of making kantan/futsuu etc us too ambiguous and should be discussed more before we can have any set details to what is too hard. "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is pretty silly and subjective. There needs to be more detail and facts on what said players can and cant do.
It's true that there's no solid rules saying whether a kantan is too hard, but this is also a reason why modders have to judge the difficulty "subjectively" and see if the kantan is friendly enough to new players. I don't think "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is an invalid argument because that shows a concern from a modder about the difficulty of certain parts of the diff. I'll say you should look at the parts mentioned by kpy seriously, and remember to give concrete reasons on why rejecting some fixes.

MMzz wrote:

Kantan needs 1/2 and slightly heavy 1/1 with rhythm in color changes. This prepares and educates a new player for futsuu. Of course a new player won't learn this instantly, it will take them some time to learn. They will not learn off a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes.
Maybe what you said doesn't really apply to all players, at least not for me.
Back in 2008, when I had no experience in playing rhythm games, I found taiko and it became my 1st rhythm game. At that time I just had very poor musical sense and could not even play 1/2s properly. I had to improve myself by trying to FC the simplest kantans. The fact is that "a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes." does teach me a lot in 2008.

I do believe that having a FC means I can understand the rhythm expressed by the notes and the ways to identify colors and patterns well, so I really think a diff that has a difficulty of slightly lower than one's skill level is still very beneficial to the player.

From the 4 screenshots you provided, none of the players made a FC, and 2 of them got C with < 85% acc. This is actually a very convincing proof that your kantan is not that easy for new players. I believe a player will learn the most if they get acc of >95% with confirmed or almost FC. For cases like 80% C, players will probably mess some parts up and have no idea on how to improve effectively.

MMzz wrote:

The only room for another difficulty is something BELOW Kantan, and that isn't happening because that is just a waste of time for me.
As I said above, the current kantan looks like futsuu rather than kantan. Making an easier diff is not really below kantan.
And also, I don't think you should treat creating a easier diff as a waste of time. I believe a mapper has the responsibility to create a mapset that can be enjoyed by all kinds of players, no matter if he's cookiezi-like pro or simply a noob. Lack of newbie-friendly diffs is actually the reason why many players in osu are not willing to play taiko. Many have interest in taiko, but simply have no maps that are easy enough ( eg High acc + FCable, or almost ) to get started.

OnosakiHito wrote:

14:25 OnosakiHito: Yes, I would suggest the same.
14:25 OnosakiHito: Making a new Kantan and renameing this one to Futsuu.
tl;dr : Current kantan is just too hard. Don't be lazy and make an even easier diff, please.
Zeraph


The Kantan is not hard at all.



ps. FWIW I can't FC the Futsuu or Muzu on a sightread like I did on the Kantan.
Topic Starter
MMzz
From the 4 screenshots you provided, none of the players made a FC, and 2 of them got C with < 85% acc. This is actually a very convincing proof that your kantan is not that easy for new players. I believe a player will learn the most if they get acc of >95% with confirmed or almost FC. For cases like 80% C, players will probably mess some parts up and have no idea on how to improve effectively.
A player that has barely ever played the game needs to get 95% on their sightread to be considered a proper difficulty? That is nonsense. 85% is even high for a new player that is assumed to have no experience in rhythm or this game at all. Accuracy and pattern reading are completely different by the way.

And calling me lazy is very insulting as I put a lot of time into this mapset.

Maybe what you said doesn't really apply to all players, at least not for me.
Back in 2008, when I had no experience in playing rhythm games, I found taiko and it became my 1st rhythm game. At that time I just had very poor musical sense and could not even play 1/2s properly. I had to improve myself by trying to FC the simplest kantans. The fact is that "a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes." does teach me a lot in 2008.
You obviously didn't understand what I was conveying in my explanation of the purpose in this mapset, and that is it exclusive for this map only, not every map ever. That might be your personal story but not everyone is that way, and we can't assume such.

Even if my Kantan is little harder than other "Kantans", that is not as of a bad thing that you are all playing it out to be. What is the harm in having a Kantan with a slightly higher star rating? (as in, 1-10star system we use.) Why can't I label my Kantan as a difficulty for those who can do easier Kantans, but not quite play the common Futsuu difficulty? This difficulty isn't anywhere close to a Futsuu! So why does every Kantan have to be the same? That is what you guys are trying to promote, and it is a tad bit silly.

I'm sure even the TnT games of a variety of Kantan ratings because of different song selections. It is called game design. Having an small curve, regardless of difficulty name isn't bad. Of course it is harder to do in osu! because of the massive song selection, compared to a game like TnT that would have limited songs. Not even exclusively to TnT, every rhythm game does this.
Love
1) There's no rule on how Kantan difficulties NEED to be mapped in only 1/1.
2) I thought that as a BAT, you need to suggest ideas and find unrankable issues with the map, then fix them. Not be subjective on what can and cannot be in a difficulty.

These patterns are VERY spaced out. Anybody should have the right mindset of going into rhythm games to learn how to have some sense of beat. The usual 1/1 patterns aren't teaching anything. With simple 1/2 doubles, especially being spaced out from everything else and being a single color, these teach the start of patterns in taiko. Creating a new difficulty curve for one person's mind to actually learn something about taiko. The patterns are hard at Muzu/Oni level, and I will not go into Inner Oni level. But the bottom line is, this teaches new players that patterns are a thing. That getting used to a simple pattern will mean a lot in the future if they continue on playing the game mode. 1/1 patterns are just checking if the person can keep a tempo, or a simple beat. While 1/2 is teaching a pattern, and showing a fun way to play the game mode. So eh. The Kantan here tries to show how you can keep a simple beat, while adding variety and teaches a player how to hit a normal pattern.

There's a little something called a tutorial to learn about keeping a beat. Which there are tutorials.
Topic Starter
MMzz

kanpakyin wrote:

okay, I finally decide to mod this since there are no more other bubbles I can check ._. A long and detailed mod is coming.

still modding it
[Kantan]
  1. HP -1 for this diff?
  2. hum, here is something from two another experienced taiko mapper which I want to quote it to you. I know you are an experienced mapper, but I still want to quote this to you:

    lepidopodus wrote:

    - Generally too hard for Easy. Currently there are too many 1/2 patterns with don/kat alterations. Make them to minimum first.
    - Also, try use less don/kat alterations even it is 1/1 patterns.
    - I usually recommend to have minimum 1.5-beat-long gap between drum roll/spinner and the next note in Kantan since switching between them is quite hard for beginners.
  3. OnosakiHito wrote:

    A Kantan diff. has mostly monton 1/1 notes with less kat variation, while kiai has just some 1/2 notes. But here you have used allready muzukashii level patterns which a beginner can't deal with. Also there are too many finisher in the Kantan.
    Somehow I found what they said is reasonable, and this kantan is quite diffiuclt for newbie, why not make it more newbie-friendly? If you don't want to simplify this diff, I will suggest an alternative method to you: you can rename this diff as Futsuu, and then make a new Kantan. Also, aabc do agree with this.
    And the following is some pattern and rhythm mod:
  4. 00:10:884 (13) - I would suggest changing this note to kat to fit this (00:13:741 (19,20,21,22) - ) pattern and to reduce the dificulty of this diff. (and it fits the music so don't worry ._.) I know you may want to make some variation here but consider it is a kantan, we should avoid doing that and try to make this diff as a newbie-friendly diff right? :) Sure.
  5. 00:17:415 (27) - ^
  6. 00:43:129 (18,19) - A rhythm suggestion here. I think you can move these 2 notes to 00:42:925 - and 00:43:333 - as you are following the vocal at 00:41:496 - to 00:42:517 - . You can remain your current pattern as it fits the pitch pretty well :p I prioritize the rhythm over the vocal so I'm not going to change this. It would also create a weird contrast between the two rhythms that breaks the consistency I am for and newer players would thrive with.
  7. 00:57:415 (49) - I think you can consider a big kat here because of the high pitch. Big kat can fits the music quite well and it can make the pattern more consistent with 01:00:680 (55,56,57,58) - . (and this also can reduce the difficulty, kill three birds with one stone <_<) This disrupts the rhythm I have in place, I can't agree to that. I can remove the finishes though if you are super concerned about difficulty.
  8. 01:08:435 (73,74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick. I can agree with you, but at the same time you cannot miss on a slider, nor can we guarantee the newer players can even do 1/4 properly. (I wish we could change the slider ticks.) So all in all this is a placeholder for a strong resemblance to the music. I could change it a little so there is a pause before the slider, but I'm not sure what good that will do for the success on the slider anyways. So I would rather stick with the consistent beat I already have in place.
  9. 01:22:721 (13) - I would suggest using d here to make a strong contrast to previous part. (what I suggest to use at 00:10:884 (13) -)
  10. 01:30:068 (29) - How about to consider a strong kat here? The reason of using big note is to emphasize the strong downbeat there. The reason of using kat is to fit the pitch. Since you used a big don at 01:31:496 (30) - , a big kat there will make a contrast to show the difference and make it more impressive imo.I don't like the use of a finisher here because the beat drops and that will give the wrong impression of what is happening in the music, plus there isn't much of a finish sound here, just a strong beat.
  11. 01:38:639 (45,46) - Similar to 00:43:129 (18,19) -
  12. 02:14:558 (67) - I personally think that it would be much better if you could place this note at 02:14:353 - because I don't hear there is any drum at 02:14:558 - but 02:14:353 - instead. (You may consider adding a note at 02:14:762 - after doing this if you want to rename this to Futsuu.) There is definitely a snare drum there.
  13. 02:17:211 (74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick. (This is fine in Futsuu)
  14. 02:34:965 (20) - Same as 02:14:558 (67) -
  15. 02:37:618 (27) - Same as 02:17:211 (74) -

Will finish this mod asap.
Added some stuff, read the post. Also made an easier diff because this discussion is getting on my nerves.
If you are going to do a full mod KPY, please do it soon so I can resume getting this map ranked.
Stefan
That wasn't a real Mod I've did. Here is the full one:

[Basic]
Hard to result about 00:56:394 (82) , 02:47:414 (3) , 01:02:925 (93) and them at the 2nd Chours.. Actually I would say to keep them at 1/1 for this Diff. I was actually satisfied with them in Kantan (and I found Kantan fine enough for Beginners, if some people cannot deal with this Rhythm then the Mapper shouldn't be gave the fault) and I think for a Basic Diff, which means to learn the manual Basics these Circles seems to be too hard at this point.

[Kantan]
I guess I don't need it to mod it again? lul

[Futsuu]
I remember that it was really really nice. And it is. The only thing I dislike a bit is the long play phase sometimes. I think that some 1/1 breaks could be added but it's not a must. It's more for the comfort to say "Let's rest for a short time". Uh.. sounds dumb but you understand what's my point and I think you should try to add them - I have really no clue where you would like to put them in case so I don't suggest times here.

[Muzukashii]
02:40:067 (631) - Feels weird to play on k. You also have used d at the other chourses and you should keep it (of course not as D but as d)

Great Diff.

[Oni]
Nothing to say, excellent rhythm choice and placement of the Triplets. This Diff is definitely fine.
Topic Starter
MMzz
Took everything from Stefan.

@KPY I took what I could from your futsuu mod, lots of stuff got changed after Stefan's mod.
Makar
Checked over all difficulties and didn't find any problems. The mapper also made an easier difficulty to fix any issues with kantan being "too hard."
Bubbled and good luck~
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