There is worth to be found in the various scriptures / texts, some are quite beautiful and thought provoking. On the other hand, such teachings that directly encourage segregation and discrimination of others really have no place in the present.

Zarerion wrote:

my mind wanders in a dark forest

I've set up a bank account, just 20% of your income and an eventual relocation to our new church is all that's required for you to find the answers you need, the glimmer of light in the forest, obscured by earthy ignorance.

fuck anyone saying they're being oppressed. All agnostics, theists, deists, and atheists are hardly minorities. It pisses me off to see people insulting religion like this yet being too scared to come up to their parents, their peers, or whatever and saying it straight out.

Tanzklaue wrote:

religion is an outdated concept. it was important in older times, because without lies nobody would seek for the truth, but now it's really just an old concept that brings more evil than it brings good things. you could argue that religion brings us important ethics, but ethics are deeply implemented in our culture, so we won't lose them if religion vanishes.

tl;dr

IppE wrote:

Religions are all quite silly and pointless.

I find it to be a fundamental need, just like practicing arabesques is to the professional artist. While our culture retains certain ethics, it's still lacking things such as trust and love. Read Remembering, by Wendell Berry. It shows how our modern society's crumbled as far as how close people are with each other. As in, everyone's so shut in it's sad as hell.

Besides, I find that religious ideals are much better than the general populace's ideals, which tend to be bitter and cynical.

gurodoll wrote:

There is worth to be found in the various scriptures / texts, some are quite beautiful and thought provoking. On the other hand, such teachings that directly encourage segregation and discrimination of others really have no place in the present.

Throw me quotes, do it.

And if you link me to the skeptic's annotated Bible, you might as well go read the NET Bible (with notes), which already has every single note covered.

I don't care what religion others believe in as long as they don't intrude my way of life.

There are 2 things I hate the most about religion at the moment:

1) People interrupt an intelligent conversation with non-sense arguments like "earth only existed for a few thousand years," when the conversation wasn't even about religion.

2) Religious group come repeatedly knocking on my door bloody 8am Sunday morning, thinking that they're doing me a favour.

Ephemeral wrote:

mathexpert9981 wrote:

words

more words

I was also raised religious, and I still am religious, although I don't affiliate myself with any organized religion. I don't attend church or anything like that and I don't read any of those stupid outdated books, mainly because I don't want other people telling me what god should be and what I should think. Basically I think it's important to free yourself from these silly influences and believe what you want to believe.

And about that outdated point: I tend to agree with all organized religions today being outdated. Most of it just consists of people telling other people how to think, and I think that's why a lot of people don't like religion. However, I don't think theism in itself is outdated, it's only natural for humans to stipulate causes of our existence and how everything we know came about. That will never be outdated.

Kanye West wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

more words

word festival

First of all, these aren't silly influences at all; they're all backed by generations of bright minds, from Boethius to C.S. Lewis. In fact, it'd be very close minded of you to ignore them. Many of "those stupid outdated books" make excellent points and even agree on several matters with each other. Several cultures around the world, from the Far East to the Iberian Peninsula have had their intellectuals, all making similar assertions: Socrates, Confucius, Christ, and Laozi among them. While they all disagree on the nature of God or how evil works, their ideas are still worth considering.

My point is that it's fine to believe what you want as long as you consider other ideas. For all you know you might be ignoring something you'd agree with.

I didn't become such a stubborn Catholic without having read Nietzsche or Dawkins a few times.

Wojjan wrote:

meanwhile: http://www.allout.org/en/actions/georgia

I'm concerned as to how I didn't know anything about this and I live in Georgia.



I was raised without religion so I never even knew about Christianity until we moved into the good ol' Bible Belt and kids seemed shocked that I didn't know who God was. Gotta say, I don't mind my upbringing. Though I'd rather have been sitting in church on Sundays rather than out in the hot sun weeding the fucking garden/yard/everything.



fuck weeds

Cuddlebun wrote:

Wojjan wrote:

meanwhile: http://www.allout.org/en/actions/georgia

I'm concerned as to how I didn't know anything about this and I live in Georgia.

I didn't even take this into consideration when I first heard it because I thought it was a joke. I didn't even notice a link; thank you for bringing this to my attention, Tode.
Well shit, even more of a reason to be angered about things like religion & homophobia.

*applauds Ephemeral*
Not that it did anything to prevent the steady trickle of troll posts.

Hika wrote:

religion & homophobia.

Not as much as I have reason to be angered at these two words being used in the same sentence. Sometimes I have to believe that right wingers are engaged in a perpetual smear campaign against religion.

I'll just say it. Homophobes are idiots. Young earth creationists are idiots. But they're not representative of Christians in general.
Religion doesn't start wars, people do, usually fighting over economic control of some region.
Religion isn't in opposition to science, it complements it, and must humbly step aside when science contradicts it.
Now carry on trolling and ignore everything I said.

Vext wrote:

Oh dear, nothing good can come from this topic.

After reading everything,I have to agree with you on that one.
My mind wanders in a dark forest,all hail our savior and messiah gurodoll.

Aurani wrote:

Vext wrote:

Oh dear, nothing good can come from this topic.

After reading everything,I have to agree with you on that one.
My mind wanders in a dark forest,all hail our savior and messiah gurodoll.

I disagree; I think this is the chosen thread.

Nah, I thought Datzuke had the best thread of all OT. Nothing can compare.

This is the worst thread I've ever read

my religon > your religion

Hika wrote:

Nah, I thought Datzuke had the best thread of all OT. Nothing can compare.

No no, I mean this thread has awakened a primal urge in me to make quality posts rather than sink into depravity by posting a myriad of dancing lolis and shitposts. It has nothing to do with the quality of the thread per se.

However I agree. This thread is very bad.

I got the impression from OP that the thread was supposed to be about that thing in Michigan or whatever where they're trying to pass a law that says "you're allowed to bully others as long as it's part of a strong religious or moral belief"



it's as dumb as it sounds

mm201 wrote:

I'll just say it. Homophobes are idiots.

+1 on that one.

mm201 wrote:

Religion doesn't start wars, people do, usually fighting over economic control of some region.

Well I wish it was only that one..there's far,far more to that than simple "economic control".

Also,basically everything comes down to what Hoverlegs mentioned in a sarcastic manner,and no matter what we do that'll always stay the same..

Hoverlegs wrote:

my religon > your religion

Religion was created with a good cause like preventing rape, murder, theft etc. I think. It was a positive idealistic system created to inspire harmlesss manners. Yet, like many things, this system too were abused by some people and became this mess. You can believe in a creator's existence if you would like. But you can never trust a book that touched by humans. There will be always some manipulation and exploitation. The sense of religion and the mind of overly-religious people is irrefutably unformed/unadvanced. We don't even need to discuss about their freedom.

But man, fuck that shit seriously. Smoke weed erryday instead. Mah mind 's gonna chill in da duck forest non-stop.

Suddenly my mind is a jungler assassin.

Heh.

Personally, I am all for other people to believe in what they want; Religions help form a certain general morality, where people generally think and act in similar manners. That being said, one could argue that laws do that, just the same, just without the general dissuasion using eternal damnation or not being to reach the afterlife/your second life/a good reincarnation.

I could go either way. I myself don't believe in any one God or religion, but at the same time I don't think there's anything wrong in someone believing in one. Life is a roller-coaster ride, and sometimes people would like the comfort of having something to hold on to. There are people that can take their belief systems a little too seriously, or that practice an extreme view of a religion, but they're really quite a minority.

As Eph said earlier, there are all sorts of crazy things in this universe, and everything is linked together in such a way that for any one person to say "Yes. That's definitely what happened" is quite absurd. Scientists and Theorists make new discoveries and connections every day, and I don't disclaim that, But until someone manages to go back through all the links, following the chain back up to the point where it all began, nobody can definitively declare that this is what happened. And time travel itself would be hard.

mm201 wrote:

I'll just say it. Homophobes are idiots.

You're overgeneralizing, for one thing. For another, hold your tongue; it's not something I can help. It's well within my ability to not oppress, to support, and to treat LGBTs as I would any other human being, but I can't control the tiny ulcer growing in my stomach when they talk to me about their sexual tendencies.

mm201 wrote:

Religion doesn't start wars, people do, usually fighting over economic control of some region.

Well I wish it was only that one..there's far,far more to that than simple "economic control".

Provide examples.

The Middle East is about economic control, despite what they say.

Also,basically everything comes down to what Hoverlegs mentioned in a sarcastic manner,and no matter what we do that'll always stay the same..

Hoverlegs wrote:

my religon > your religion

Nope. Anyone that even bothers studying other religions can tell that each one has some truth to it. And if anyone ever asked why they believe what they do, they'd know that every religion is just about as valid as the next, the only difference being what you place your faith on.

C.S. Lewis alluded in Abolition of Man to something called the "Tao" (pronounced dao) or "The Way." He asserted that several cultures around the world, developed similar ethical values despite being mostly isolated from each other in time and space. All of these cultures, Chinese, Greek, Judaic, Celtic, and so on, managed to somewhat agree on something. " Do to others as you would have them do to you" is a very common one. Most, if not all religions have moral/ethical fundamentals such as these.

Of course, some religions have less arguments backing them than others, though at that point it'd be breaking into sects more than religions in the strict sense of the word. For example, the Orthodox Church has less arguments against it compared to the Catholic Church. Still, it mostly comes down to faith, which has to work on the assumption that "my religion = your religion", otherwise there'd be no doubt and therefore no faith. It was one of G.K. Chesterton's main points and personifies it in The Ball and the Cross; your belief is a big leap of faith when it comes down to it, whether you believe there's something out there or not.

Aeidxst wrote:

Religion was created with a good cause like preventing rape, murder, theft etc. I think. It was a positive idealistic system created to inspire harmlesss manners.

That's what I think a "good" believer should do with their respective religion too. But guess what? I've brought up that point when challenged by religious people on many occasions, but their answers are always along the line of "if you believe in the wrong god, then it is pointless no matter how many good deeds you do."

*gasp*

I'm not talking about some thieves/swindlers who cheats people everyday. Most of these hardcore religious zealots are ordinary people, some even have jobs in engineering and field of science (my colleagues for example). Here in Australia. Not some middle-age country. It scares me when I cross a bridge or get on an airplane thinking that it could be designed by one of these people.

all voices and no ears, this thread

Brian OA wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Religion doesn't start wars, people do, usually fighting over economic control of some region.

Well I wish it was only that one..there's far,far more to that than simple "economic control".

Brian OA wrote:

Provide examples.

The Middle East is about economic control, despite what they say.

To provide examples?
I basically live in a place that could be my example for you...Balkan,all major military powers pull the strings here.You cant just blindly tell me that it's all about economic control here.It dates back to the Austro-Hungarian empire, and now that the empire is no more,Germany,Britain,U.S.A. and Russia took that place.They are basically playing a big game of chess here.You can't tell me that all the major powers are giving their best to control this peninsula just because of its economic importance,because there is nothing here to prove that point.From that point of view it's not profitable at all.I myself don't know the true reason(only the ones who pull the strings do) why this patch of land they call "Balkans" is cursed,aside from the strategic position in Europe,but it clearly isn't because of its "economic importance".This is basically the simplest example I could've given to you,yet we can't discuss this further because we're just gonna go in circles here...the only thing I want to add is that religion is basically a mere tool that certain people who rule the world use to control the masses with relative ease.It's in the nature of a creature to hate or fear somebody or something just because it can't understand it,and since most of Earth's population consists of intellectually crippled people,you can only expect religion to be used to control them in more ways than just the economic one.

Ephemeral wrote:

long words

Honestly, I think that you can't say Christianity isn't homophobic. If you only believe the "core beliefs" of the Bible, then that means you're just cherry-picking the parts that make sense, which to me just seems ridiculous. IMO, if you're a "Christian", you should believe all of the Bible since you believe is "God's word". If you don't think it's "God's word", then why do you trust the New Testament?



However, if you have your own beliefs like "I believe there is a deity/deities that created the Universe", then fair enough. As long as religions don't interfere with progress in science, human rights, and anything else, then they're fine.

Oinari-sama wrote:

but their answers are always along the line of "if you believe in the wrong god, then it is pointless no matter how many good deeds you do."

You've been talking to the wrong people then. Let me be the first Catholic to tell you that your good deeds matter more than what you believe.

DaddyCoolVipper wrote:

Honestly, I think that you can't say Christianity isn't homophobic. If you only believe the "core beliefs" of the Bible, then that means you're just cherry-picking the parts that make sense, which to me just seems ridiculous. IMO, if you're a "Christian", you should believe all of the Bible since you believe is "God's word". If you don't think it's "God's word", then why do you trust the New Testament?

This is a very awkward debate that inevitably centers around Leviticus 18. Most Christian denominations do not consider it binding.
Wikipedia comes to the rescue, namely a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, in explaining why this is not cherry picking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... n_Catholic

.

.

This topic...spreads like a cancer...

.

what the

This thread.

Apex wrote:

It's useless for a Christian(I, that is.) to talk to an Atheist.

it's useless for you to have an attitude like that. i don't care what a person worships or believe, they are people regardless and should be treated with the same respect and decorum as everybody else.

I was a Christian, but my extremist surroundings in high school made me lose faith.

Mr Color wrote:

I was a Christian, but my extremist surroundings in high school made me lose faith.

#1 cause of it, and for good reason. extremism twists the Christian ethos into something inexorably foreign and exclusive to what it actually is.. it's actually really terrifying.

Let's all give up our religions and join the one and true Church of Euthanasia
No but really,I think that there is nothing more to discuss about...we're starting to go in circles now.

DaddyCoolVipper wrote:

Honestly, I think that you can't say Christianity isn't homophobic. If you only believe the "core beliefs" of the Bible, then that means you're just cherry-picking the parts that make sense, which to me just seems ridiculous. IMO, if you're a "Christian", you should believe all of the Bible since you believe is "God's word". If you don't think it's "God's word", then why do you trust the New Testament?

This is a very poorly thought out statement. First off, there is a reason the bible is written by four people and then some. The bible isn't a sort of etiquette guide to heaven, it's a series of stories about a saint who, in comparison to other people, didn't treat everyone like shit, and the book was written with the idea of passing it on, so more people would live like this. It is much more comparable to the Torah than the Qur'an. Even today rabbis AND priests interpret the bible personally, and tell people the SENTIMENT behind the words. Nobody wrote that one womb passage thinking "so don't go committing abortion in a few thousand years, mkay?"

mm201 wrote:

Wikipedia comes to the rescue, namely a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, in explaining why this is not cherry picking:

WATCH OUT with religious beliefs of Aquinas. He was the biggest eclectic up to then in religion and philosophy, comparing the bible and Aristotle as if they were on the same level, and picking out parts for himself to follow from either. He himself got quite a bit of slag writing the Summa Theologica exactly because it wasn't much in line with religion up to then.

This is the second worst thread after the conspiracy thread I've ever seen

mm201 wrote:

This is a very awkward debate that inevitably centers around Leviticus 18. Most Christian denominations do not consider it binding.
Wikipedia comes to the rescue, namely a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, in explaining why this is not cherry picking:

SPOILER

Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas explained that there are three types of biblical precepts: moral, ceremonial, and judicial. He holds that moral precepts are permanent, having held even before the Law was given, since they are part of the law of nature;[9] ceremonial precepts, which deal with forms of worshipping God and ritual cleanness; and judicial precepts (such as those in Exodus 21[10]) came into existence only with the Law of Moses,[11] and were only temporary. The ceremonial commands were "ordained to the Divine worship for that particular time and to the foreshadowing of Christ".[12] Accordingly, upon the coming of Christ they ceased to bind,[13] and to observe them now would, Aquinas thought, be equivalent to declaring falsely that Christ has not yet come, for Christians a mortal sin.[14]
[...]
Unlike the ceremonial and judicial precepts, moral commands continue to bind, and are summed up in the Ten Commandments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... n_Catholic

Ah, that is a good argument indeed. Fair enough, then. Also, you can't deny that Christian morals are good, since they're just the same moral foundations that most religions/society has. It's debatable that they actually matter since it's common sense not to do things like that regardless of any belief, but eh- it's still good to have it as an influence on some people if they'll listen to nothing else.

Wojjan wrote:

This is a very poorly thought out statement. First off, there is a reason the bible is written by four people and then some. The bible isn't a sort of etiquette guide to heaven, it's a series of stories about a saint who, in comparison to other people, didn't treat everyone like shit, and the book was written with the idea of passing it on, so more people would live like this. It is much more comparable to the Torah than the Qur'an. Even today rabbis AND priests interpret the bible personally, and tell people the SENTIMENT behind the words. Nobody wrote that one womb passage thinking "so don't go committing abortion in a few thousand years, mkay?"

My argument was based around taking the Bible as the direct word of the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God. My issue with this view is that because God himself didn't write the Bible, the words could've easily been changed by the multiple writers to fit whatever agenda they have. That's more of a personal reason not to be Christian than anything, though. Thankfully the idea of separating the Bible's ideas solves the issue by meaning that not all of it has to be permanent. While Aquinas may not be the best source of information, that idea works perfectly well, I think.

kriers wrote:

This is the second worst thread after the conspiracy thread I've ever seen

Well clearly, since people are actually having conversations.

Jesus Christ how horrifying.

IppE wrote:

kriers wrote:

This is the second worst thread after the conspiracy thread I've ever seen

Well clearly, since people are actually having conversations.

Jesus Christ how horrifying.

What are you implying? Can't I tell the world how deluded my views on threads are?

.