RaneFire wrote:

Aqo wrote:

much better normaltime score.

How is it better? Please elaborate.

It's better in terms of skill, you need more skill for normaltime on hard maps rather than on halftime.

Aqo wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

How is it better? Please elaborate.

Can't tell if serious.

Please try playing those maps yourself and you'll get your answer.

That's the thing, your ability to play the map is better, but your score is rubbish. You are confusing the two. I am being serious, and yes I have played those maps, I've made it half-way through FD 4d with mouse-only nomod.

Doesn't that just mean the play is better, but the score isn't? Since the PLAY took more skill, though the same player can get a higher SCORE with halftime.

Marblehead wrote:

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

This argument has been brought up over and over again in this thread, and, tbh, it's completely ridiculous and unrelated to the discussion.
We're not trying to limit users to PLAYING only maps geared towards their skill level, we're uncomfortable with them RANKING HIGHLY on maps above their skill level due to a broken scoring system. Play maps with HT all you want, nobody's attempting to take that from you. But don't act like it's right to outrank every single top-skill player when you're not even really playing the same map, just because of how scoring works.

Marblehead wrote:

Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

I'm sure val or rrtyui can very easily FC 4D with halftime, but they prefer to show their nomod scores, because it's wayyy better than FC with HT.
This map is so hard that less than 10 players passed it. I can't see how a FC with halftime is any better, it makes those crazy maps ridiculously easy.

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

MillhioreF wrote:

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

there are only about 6 maps which are easier with easy mod than halftime, those maps are actually fine as it is - halftime and easy are balanced along with all the other mods for the most part, which is great. The newer maps are longer and faster which is why halftime begins to warp the scoreboard.



M4D P41NT SK1LL

GoldenWolf wrote:

Marblehead wrote:

Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

I'm sure val or rrtyui can very easily FC 4D with halftime, but they prefer to show their nomod scores, because it's wayyy better than FC with HT.
This map is so hard that less than 10 players passed it. I can't see how a FC with halftime is any better, it makes those crazy maps ridiculously easy.

I'm quite sure that val and rrtyui don't care about the HTs that are higher ranks, cause they know the can FC HT+HD+HR and get to #2. They're just not interested in that.

Luna wrote:

Marblehead wrote:

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

This argument has been brought up over and over again in this thread, and, tbh, it's completely ridiculous and unrelated to the discussion.
We're not trying to limit users to PLAYING only maps geared towards their skill level, we're uncomfortable with them RANKING HIGHLY on maps above their skill level due to a broken scoring system. Play maps with HT all you want, nobody's attempting to take that from you. But don't act like it's right to outrank every single top-skill player when you're not even really playing the same map, just because of how scoring works.

Of course it's unrelated. It's just an answer to what buny wrote and loseri QFT'ed, which is equally unrelated.

loseri wrote:

Doesn't that just mean the play is better, but the score isn't? Since the PLAY took more skill, though the same player can get a higher SCORE with halftime.

Here's another point of view. I don't argue that rrtyui's 700x combo nomod score on FD[4D] is not impressive, however, by the rules of this game, it's not good enough to beat HT FCs. As a bit farfetched example, if a basketball player steps on the 3-point line even by half an inch, his basket counts as 2 points regardless if it was more difficult than any other 2-pointers. The 3-point line in osu! (i.e. passing FC HTs with nomod) is set at a combo around 45-50% of an FC (about 1100-1200x on FD[4D]). Asking for HT to become unranked its like asking for any basket inside the 3-point line to not be awarded any points while stepping on the 3-point line still awards 2 points.

Games must have rules and lines must be drawn. At the moment, FD[4D] has 1 score above HTs. If HT gets reduced to 0.10x, there will be 3 scores, and people will still be complaining. If it's reduced to 0.01x, there will be 11 scores and if noone will complain about HT then, they'll complain about NF scores that would be higher than nomods.

Again you don't read the thread and seem to think that the only solution is to unrank it. That analogy is pretty terrible too, the solution we proposed doesn't even fit into it. Basketball is also a team game, which osu! isn't.

On nofail: yes a nofail score that beats a nomod score IS WAY BETTER than the nomod score, only and idiot would argue against that.

jesus1412 wrote:

Again you don't read the thread and seem to think that the only solution is to unrank it. That analogy is pretty terrible too, the solution we proposed doesn't even fit into it. Basketball is also a team game, which osu! isn't.

On nofail: yes a nofail score that beats a nomod score IS WAY BETTER than the nomod score, only and idiot would argue against that.

I read the solution you proposed and I don't argue with it. Actually, I think it's quite good. However, most people don't side with you, while they say the scoring system is broken and ask for HT to be unranked. I even reread the whole thread and I believe only bwross kind of agreed with the solution in the OP. Again, I'm not arguing with the OP, I'm arguing with all the other extreme solutions proposed in this thread.

nice graph jesse ;3
you forgot to mention how higher bpms get exponentially harder to play on, which should produce a parable
playing 160bpm: one month of training
180bpm: two months
200bpm: half a year
240bpm: three years

Marblehead wrote:

rrtyui's 700x combo nomod score on FD[4D] is not impressive, however, by the rules of this game, it's not good enough to beat HT FCs.

um, hello?
this is what we've been discussing all thread long
that those so-called "rules" are flawed and need to be fixed, as they do not correctly represent the state of the game.

you're basically saying "it's bad, but it was always like this, so instead of fixing mistakes made in the past to improve this game just learn to deal with it". Which is the worst possible way of thinking. You should always aim to move forward and improve upon yourself instead of sitting in an idle state. Osu is a constantly evolving game and you should support potential changes that would make it better instead of deny them on such silly basis that "it was always like that".

Also, I've already said this multiple times: the whole score system of osu is flawed at the moment, and is very map-length dependent. With the current standards for map length, reducing the HT multiplier to 0.01x would "more or less" solve the issue, but the real issue would remain in the long term once longer maps start being made. A solution that will work from now and all eternity is to simply put the HT mod in the same state as relax and autopilot - still allowing it to be used the same as it always was, without producing any scores on the ranking. i.e. unranked

Imagine if Relax was ranked with 30% score reduction and I could FC the big black with Relax and then rank above a bunch of other people who played it nomod without FCing. Won't that look incredibly stupid. This is exactly the same situation with HT right now.

As I said before, I think scoring is fine. I've also said that if you want to lower the multiplier, I won't mind. However, there has to be a line where nomods don't beat HT, like there is one for EZ and NF, and even SO. The reason Relax and Auto Pilot are unranked is because they automate a part of the gameplay. HT doesn't belong in that category. If you want HT to become unranked the so must NF and EZ. They're a family. But then the discussion becomes a lot different with different arguments.

Marblehead wrote:

As I said before, I think scoring is fine. I've also said that if you want to lower the multiplier, I won't mind. However, there has to be a line where nomods don't beat HT, like there is one for EZ and NF, and even SO. The reason Relax and Auto Pilot are unranked is because they automate a part of the gameplay. HT doesn't belong in that category. If you want HT to become unranked the so must NF and EZ. They're a family. But then the discussion becomes a lot different with different arguments.

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

jesus1412 wrote:

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

I don't know if the coding supports this kind of scoring and how easy it is to implement without breaking something else. However, limiting the combo just reduces the max score achieved by HTs like a multiplier reduction would. It's just more sophisticated and maybe more accurate. I still find the solution in the OP to be better.

Marblehead wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

I don't know if the coding supports this kind of scoring and how easy it is to implement without breaking something else. However, limiting the combo just reduces the max score achieved by HTs like a multiplier reduction would. It's just more sophisticated and maybe more accurate. I still find the solution in the OP to be better.

Glad we can agree.

Aqo wrote:

There is currently only one person in the world who can even pass this

orly

i used to use this to pass some 3-star maps.

Aqo wrote:

nice graph jesse ;3
you forgot to mention how higher bpms get exponentially harder to play on, which should produce a parable
playing 160bpm: one month of training
180bpm: two months
200bpm: half a year
240bpm: three years

I can already do 240bpm so no.

buny wrote:

I can already do 240bpm so no.

I bet you can't even do 200bpm #yolo

if you want to prove me wrong get at least 90% on this map.
it's basically "200bpm: the map". if you can't do this, you can't do 200bpm. (spoilers: the 240bpm version of this is harder. much, much harder)

Aqo wrote:

buny wrote:

I can already do 240bpm so no.

I bet you can't even do 200bpm #yolo

if you want to prove me wrong get at least 90% on this map.
it's basically "200bpm: the map". if you can't do this, you can't do 200bpm. (spoilers: the 240bpm version of this is harder. much, much harder)

I looked at it and saw how badly it was mapped so no.


It's just a map full of 200bpm 1/2 jumps with inconsistent spacing...

2 months for 160-180? O_o"