you seem to not get it, nvm

Aqo wrote:

:|

The worst part in this discussion is that every single person who does not support unranking halftime is a person who's currently not interested in ranking on maps above 210bpm and if one day they'd try to do it I'm sure that at that very moment they'll instantly change their mind and throw a vote into unranking it.

I wouldn't want half time to be changed in any way.

silmarilen wrote:

you seem to not get it, nvm

more like you seem to not get it
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.

the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime

Aqo wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

you seem to not get it, nvm

more like you seem to not get it
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.

the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime

what silm basically meant: tapping 41 circles on 250 BPM 1/2 (or 125 BPM 1/4) is not easy.

what you interpreted: I don't even know.

There is nothing different between tapping 1/2s on 250bpm or 1/4s on 125bpm. It's exactly the same thing. If the circles are all close to each other and have no DS changes that you're forced to read then the aim reading you have to do is practically zero speed.
The point is that you can't call this 250bpm, this is not nearly the same speed as what's required to play a map like atama or those others that are actually mapped with 1/2s on that speed.

wow aqo.

just wow.

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well. If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well. If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

The mod causes the flaw. It doesn't change anything apart from the maps that you call "flawed" and they're flawed because of halftime.

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

TheVileOne wrote:

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

Why even play competitively if people who are 50x worse than you get a 50x better score than you?

TheVileOne wrote:

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

IMO nofail should 0.5 or so, it doesn't make the map any easier.

I really dislike your argument of "it's hard but you can't do it so who cares" when in fact I can do quite a bundle of the maps mentioned aside from freedom dive. It applies to me and it bothers me, happy now?

IMO no fail should be 0.8.

Buny, it's a matter of fairness. The original vision of osu! didn't include super top-tiered maps. Now you're saying noone but top-tiered players should be playing them? And you're forgetting it's a matter of combos made... You're kind of just overlooking the fact that this issue only happens with these maps. It is the maps themselves that create the problem. If you want to play and support the continuance of these types of maps, then you should at least accept the flaws that come with them.

I'll give you a slightly different take on my example. AR 10 breaks Hard rock, making it easier to play. These types of maps imbalance the mods, it's not the other way around.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well.

On what basis must someone agree? Neither opinion implies the other unless you build your argument on a nice fat stack of bad assumptions. These super hard maps are made for people who can play them as they're presented. Players without the skills have no right to pass these maps. The lesser-skilled players are the majority, and there are thousands of other maps suited to their skill level.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

Actually, if you can pass a map without mods, as originally presented, that kind of means you're skilled enough to play it. The target audience is probably these people and not the halftimers. How many maps do you see where the author states that it was designed for halftime?

Also, this assumes that 0.3x is a reasonable multiplier for Halftime at this level. It isn't. It takes combo, the thing that matters most in scoring, and makes it easier to get to such an extent that it heavily outweighs the 70% score penalty. It takes an already messed-up scoring system and distorts it even further.

TheVileOne wrote:

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

The map's fine. It's a flaw of the scoring system. If the scoring system wasn't broken as hell, halftime at 0.3x would be much more fair than it is now.

These maps aren't for you. They aren't for me. They're for people who wish to play at that level and compete with other players who also play at that level.

And it looks like you made another post while I was writing this, so I guess I'll disagree with that one too.

TheVileOne wrote:

IMO no fail should be 0.8.

The role of HP drain is another discussion entirely. Not sure I have a well-enough-formed opinion on my own to agree or disagree with changing Nofail's multiplier.

TheVileOne wrote:

The original vision of osu! didn't include super top-tiered maps.

The original vision of osu!, however, did include a broken scoring system that scales horribly to longer maps regardless of the difficulty. Being original makes it original. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it should never be changed.

TheVileOne wrote:

Now you're saying noone but top-tiered players should be playing them? And you're forgetting it's a matter of combos made... You're kind of just overlooking the fact that this issue only happens with these maps. It is the maps themselves that create the problem. If you want to play and support the continuance of these types of maps, then you should at least accept the flaws that come with them.

I'll give you a slightly different take on my example. AR 10 breaks Hard rock, making it easier to play. These types of maps imbalance the mods, it's not the other way around.

The handsome fellow writing this post wrote:

The map's fine. It's a flaw of the scoring system.

For further reading, see Aqo's first post all the way back on page one. He had this shit figured out already.

I don't normally post in these threads... they don't concern me. But they're fun to read and every once in a while someone makes a post that needs more disagreements than it's currently getting.

I'm actually glad there is SOME opposition, allows us to give more and better reasons for the proposals. One of the most truthful things we never really mentioned is indeed that HT used to work - but times are changing. We need a system built for now, not 3 years ago.

That's a good point. It's worth keeping in mind that the mods were made and balanced around 2007 and 2008 maps (try it - in general, easy mod actually DOES make those maps easier)

Since when has osu ever been limited to just extremely hard maps?

Either get better or play easier maps please.

The maps "broken" by Half-Time are so few in number it's hardly worth worrying about.

The reverse side of the "HT breaks maps" argument is also true, if these maps were created with the sole purpose of challenging players like Cookiezi, are they not broken in the first place? He isn't the standard of how to play, he's the epitome of a skill level everyone wants to reach. He already makes lonely DT scores on maps everyone else plays at normal speed.

If even 0.5% of active players could play the maps in question, HT scores would fade into the distance.

If you want "top tier elitist maps" - you have some, you just want to segregate the community by forming a "top tier elitist" group on the scoreboards of crazy maps. But you know what? The moment Cookiezi FC's FD[4d], someone is going to make and approve something even faster and harder, because it's possible. Hah... gl hf. Half-Time multiplier 0.01x here we come.

jesus1412 wrote:

We need a system built for now, not 3 years ago.

That about sums it up.

buny wrote:

Since when has osu ever been limited to just extremely hard maps?

Either get better or play easier maps please.

This.

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

The meaning of HT, NF, etc is to let you play maps that are targeted to better players than you.

The debate here is that some people believe that anyone that passes an extremely hard map nomod, even if his score is less than HT plays, is better than those HT players, thus they should be higher in ranks. Personally, I don't believe that. Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

But you know what? That's just my opinion. Like everyone else posts his/hers opinion. And on an abstract subject like who or what is better, usually neither side is wrong or right. They simply disagree. However, trying to nullify others' arguments with out-of-context excuses like "you shouldn't be expressing your opinion because...", it's just not constructive to say the least. Everyone can play that game, but some of us just like to have a healthy debate. Noone's life will become worse whatever the outcome of this thread might be, anyway.


p.s. lol, silly me, logic on teh intrawebz!

This thread isn't going to change anything anyway, don't worry yourself. It's a discussion that is heading out of hand.

Marblehead wrote:

Personally, I don't believe that. Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT.

You better start believing. Anybody who can pass atama/sousie/4d with normaltime has absolutely zero trouble of FCing those maps in halftime.
This is not an opinion this is factual.

At least the discussion has stayed on topic and not dissolved into flaming... mostly, anyway. Discussion is healthy, so I'm keeping the topic open unless it gets worse.

Aqo wrote:

much better normaltime score.

How is it better? Please elaborate.

RaneFire wrote:

How is it better? Please elaborate.

Can't tell if serious.

Please try playing those maps yourself and you'll get your answer.

RaneFire wrote:

Aqo wrote:

much better normaltime score.

How is it better? Please elaborate.

It's better in terms of skill, you need more skill for normaltime on hard maps rather than on halftime.

Aqo wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

How is it better? Please elaborate.

Can't tell if serious.

Please try playing those maps yourself and you'll get your answer.

That's the thing, your ability to play the map is better, but your score is rubbish. You are confusing the two. I am being serious, and yes I have played those maps, I've made it half-way through FD 4d with mouse-only nomod.

Doesn't that just mean the play is better, but the score isn't? Since the PLAY took more skill, though the same player can get a higher SCORE with halftime.

Marblehead wrote:

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

This argument has been brought up over and over again in this thread, and, tbh, it's completely ridiculous and unrelated to the discussion.
We're not trying to limit users to PLAYING only maps geared towards their skill level, we're uncomfortable with them RANKING HIGHLY on maps above their skill level due to a broken scoring system. Play maps with HT all you want, nobody's attempting to take that from you. But don't act like it's right to outrank every single top-skill player when you're not even really playing the same map, just because of how scoring works.

Marblehead wrote:

Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

I'm sure val or rrtyui can very easily FC 4D with halftime, but they prefer to show their nomod scores, because it's wayyy better than FC with HT.
This map is so hard that less than 10 players passed it. I can't see how a FC with halftime is any better, it makes those crazy maps ridiculously easy.

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

MillhioreF wrote:

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

there are only about 6 maps which are easier with easy mod than halftime, those maps are actually fine as it is - halftime and easy are balanced along with all the other mods for the most part, which is great. The newer maps are longer and faster which is why halftime begins to warp the scoreboard.



M4D P41NT SK1LL

GoldenWolf wrote:

Marblehead wrote:

Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

I'm sure val or rrtyui can very easily FC 4D with halftime, but they prefer to show their nomod scores, because it's wayyy better than FC with HT.
This map is so hard that less than 10 players passed it. I can't see how a FC with halftime is any better, it makes those crazy maps ridiculously easy.

I'm quite sure that val and rrtyui don't care about the HTs that are higher ranks, cause they know the can FC HT+HD+HR and get to #2. They're just not interested in that.

Luna wrote:

Marblehead wrote:

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

This argument has been brought up over and over again in this thread, and, tbh, it's completely ridiculous and unrelated to the discussion.
We're not trying to limit users to PLAYING only maps geared towards their skill level, we're uncomfortable with them RANKING HIGHLY on maps above their skill level due to a broken scoring system. Play maps with HT all you want, nobody's attempting to take that from you. But don't act like it's right to outrank every single top-skill player when you're not even really playing the same map, just because of how scoring works.

Of course it's unrelated. It's just an answer to what buny wrote and loseri QFT'ed, which is equally unrelated.

loseri wrote:

Doesn't that just mean the play is better, but the score isn't? Since the PLAY took more skill, though the same player can get a higher SCORE with halftime.

Here's another point of view. I don't argue that rrtyui's 700x combo nomod score on FD[4D] is not impressive, however, by the rules of this game, it's not good enough to beat HT FCs. As a bit farfetched example, if a basketball player steps on the 3-point line even by half an inch, his basket counts as 2 points regardless if it was more difficult than any other 2-pointers. The 3-point line in osu! (i.e. passing FC HTs with nomod) is set at a combo around 45-50% of an FC (about 1100-1200x on FD[4D]). Asking for HT to become unranked its like asking for any basket inside the 3-point line to not be awarded any points while stepping on the 3-point line still awards 2 points.

Games must have rules and lines must be drawn. At the moment, FD[4D] has 1 score above HTs. If HT gets reduced to 0.10x, there will be 3 scores, and people will still be complaining. If it's reduced to 0.01x, there will be 11 scores and if noone will complain about HT then, they'll complain about NF scores that would be higher than nomods.

Again you don't read the thread and seem to think that the only solution is to unrank it. That analogy is pretty terrible too, the solution we proposed doesn't even fit into it. Basketball is also a team game, which osu! isn't.

On nofail: yes a nofail score that beats a nomod score IS WAY BETTER than the nomod score, only and idiot would argue against that.

jesus1412 wrote:

Again you don't read the thread and seem to think that the only solution is to unrank it. That analogy is pretty terrible too, the solution we proposed doesn't even fit into it. Basketball is also a team game, which osu! isn't.

On nofail: yes a nofail score that beats a nomod score IS WAY BETTER than the nomod score, only and idiot would argue against that.

I read the solution you proposed and I don't argue with it. Actually, I think it's quite good. However, most people don't side with you, while they say the scoring system is broken and ask for HT to be unranked. I even reread the whole thread and I believe only bwross kind of agreed with the solution in the OP. Again, I'm not arguing with the OP, I'm arguing with all the other extreme solutions proposed in this thread.

nice graph jesse ;3
you forgot to mention how higher bpms get exponentially harder to play on, which should produce a parable
playing 160bpm: one month of training
180bpm: two months
200bpm: half a year
240bpm: three years

Marblehead wrote:

rrtyui's 700x combo nomod score on FD[4D] is not impressive, however, by the rules of this game, it's not good enough to beat HT FCs.

um, hello?
this is what we've been discussing all thread long
that those so-called "rules" are flawed and need to be fixed, as they do not correctly represent the state of the game.

you're basically saying "it's bad, but it was always like this, so instead of fixing mistakes made in the past to improve this game just learn to deal with it". Which is the worst possible way of thinking. You should always aim to move forward and improve upon yourself instead of sitting in an idle state. Osu is a constantly evolving game and you should support potential changes that would make it better instead of deny them on such silly basis that "it was always like that".

Also, I've already said this multiple times: the whole score system of osu is flawed at the moment, and is very map-length dependent. With the current standards for map length, reducing the HT multiplier to 0.01x would "more or less" solve the issue, but the real issue would remain in the long term once longer maps start being made. A solution that will work from now and all eternity is to simply put the HT mod in the same state as relax and autopilot - still allowing it to be used the same as it always was, without producing any scores on the ranking. i.e. unranked

Imagine if Relax was ranked with 30% score reduction and I could FC the big black with Relax and then rank above a bunch of other people who played it nomod without FCing. Won't that look incredibly stupid. This is exactly the same situation with HT right now.

As I said before, I think scoring is fine. I've also said that if you want to lower the multiplier, I won't mind. However, there has to be a line where nomods don't beat HT, like there is one for EZ and NF, and even SO. The reason Relax and Auto Pilot are unranked is because they automate a part of the gameplay. HT doesn't belong in that category. If you want HT to become unranked the so must NF and EZ. They're a family. But then the discussion becomes a lot different with different arguments.

Marblehead wrote:

As I said before, I think scoring is fine. I've also said that if you want to lower the multiplier, I won't mind. However, there has to be a line where nomods don't beat HT, like there is one for EZ and NF, and even SO. The reason Relax and Auto Pilot are unranked is because they automate a part of the gameplay. HT doesn't belong in that category. If you want HT to become unranked the so must NF and EZ. They're a family. But then the discussion becomes a lot different with different arguments.

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

jesus1412 wrote:

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

I don't know if the coding supports this kind of scoring and how easy it is to implement without breaking something else. However, limiting the combo just reduces the max score achieved by HTs like a multiplier reduction would. It's just more sophisticated and maybe more accurate. I still find the solution in the OP to be better.

Marblehead wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Limit the combo affects of HT to 500 for any map (or say 1/6 of the maps maximum combo), as in any combo > 500 only counts as a note with a 500*multiplier.

Maybe that's too drastic but it would fix a lot of stuff.

I don't know if the coding supports this kind of scoring and how easy it is to implement without breaking something else. However, limiting the combo just reduces the max score achieved by HTs like a multiplier reduction would. It's just more sophisticated and maybe more accurate. I still find the solution in the OP to be better.

Glad we can agree.

Aqo wrote:

There is currently only one person in the world who can even pass this

orly