jesus1412 wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

no, the sole reason i dont want halftime unranked is because of my play on the unforgiving
i have plenty of 210+ bpm ranks

You're saying that as if it would be unranked. Your score would be hidden from the default top40 (which it isn't even on so why are you complaining?) and even then it would still be available to view simply be switching to allow halftime mods.

it actually is in the default top 40

silmarilen wrote:

this is 230 bpm, its not a lot of notes in a row or anything, but for that i can refer you to hello seattle remix where i fc'd like 30+ notes on 125 bpm 1/4 in a row with jumps in between them (1/4 jumps that is)

SPOILER

the longest pattern on this map is 4 notes. it's just a bunch of bursts of 4 notes. all you need to do to FC that is to be able to plan 4 objects ahead. if this counts as being able to play 230bpm to you then I can play 400bpm.

well like i said, hello seattle

silmarilen wrote:

well like i said, hello seattle

the longest pattern on hello seattle is 3 notes long. all of the long 1/4 segments on it are lined up allowing you to just move over them and predict where the next note is perfectly without having to read anything. the only skills that map requires is being able to plan 3 notes up ahead and to be able to hit 125bpm tempo consistently while flailing your cursor in the direction that notes appear in
being able to play it doesn't say anything about your play speed at all other than being able to plan 3 notes ahead on 125bpm. it just shows you can have accuracy on 125bpm with clicking. this kind of map is exactly the sort of map that halftime doesn't really affect at all.

04:38:465 wants to have a talk with you, thats 41 1/4 notes in a row on 125 bpm

you only need to plan 2 notes ahead to play 04:38:465-04:44:225
unless you're telling me you snap to every single circle there.

but you still need the speed

holy shit rock always so pro

silmarilen wrote:

but you still need the speed

no you don't. being able to do one fast movement doesn't take speed, it only takes planning a little up ahead.
I can do fullscreen jumps on 420bpm consistently from one edge of the screen to another if it's just one jump. that doesn't make me able to play 420bpm. there's a huge difference.

to be able to correctly play a certain speed means being able to read and understand every single note on that speed and follow that in your playing. maps are designed to simplify that and make higher speed songs playable with lower speed playing, i.e. for example tablet shredder which is mapped mostly with sliders and lined up circles or only very short segments of 2-3 circles at a time. this allows the map to be played like 140bpm with just a little planing ahead. playing it doesn't mean you can read or play 280bpm perfectly

you seem to not get it, nvm

Aqo wrote:

:|

The worst part in this discussion is that every single person who does not support unranking halftime is a person who's currently not interested in ranking on maps above 210bpm and if one day they'd try to do it I'm sure that at that very moment they'll instantly change their mind and throw a vote into unranking it.

I wouldn't want half time to be changed in any way.

silmarilen wrote:

you seem to not get it, nvm

more like you seem to not get it
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.

the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime

Aqo wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

you seem to not get it, nvm

more like you seem to not get it
most maps in this game are designed to be easy and playable by planning ahead a little instead of actually playing at their speed. when a map comes that actually requires the player to play at its speed (again, sousei and atama are good examples) suddenly nobody is able to play them. there's a god damn good reason for this.

the halftime mod simply BREAKS those maps, and converts their speed into small segments that can be planned ahead on and followed easily by anybody. a halftime FC on those maps comes nowhere close to the level of playing those maps at all on normaltime

what silm basically meant: tapping 41 circles on 250 BPM 1/2 (or 125 BPM 1/4) is not easy.

what you interpreted: I don't even know.

There is nothing different between tapping 1/2s on 250bpm or 1/4s on 125bpm. It's exactly the same thing. If the circles are all close to each other and have no DS changes that you're forced to read then the aim reading you have to do is practically zero speed.
The point is that you can't call this 250bpm, this is not nearly the same speed as what's required to play a map like atama or those others that are actually mapped with 1/2s on that speed.

wow aqo.

just wow.

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well. If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well. If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

The mod causes the flaw. It doesn't change anything apart from the maps that you call "flawed" and they're flawed because of halftime.

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

TheVileOne wrote:

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

Why even play competitively if people who are 50x worse than you get a 50x better score than you?

TheVileOne wrote:

Tell me how halftime negatively affects your playing experience. I mean noone forces you to play with it, or watch a replay with it. It only gets 30% of the max score in a map, and even with halftime, it's not a walk in the park to hit the notes. It's not like it's downgrading the difficulty below an Insane tier level, it's still insane tier.

How is it unfair? Extreme tier > insane tier

It's the difficulty that is the problem. If you are incapable of beating the map without mods, and you consider yourself a top tiered player, then it's a problem with the map. If you're not a top-tiered player, why does it even bother you? You are the type of people that would use one of these mods to beat the map or use no fail, but if you use that, you need to keep your combo up like any other player.

I think No fail's 0.5x is more problematic than Half time's 0.3x.

IMO nofail should 0.5 or so, it doesn't make the map any easier.

I really dislike your argument of "it's hard but you can't do it so who cares" when in fact I can do quite a bundle of the maps mentioned aside from freedom dive. It applies to me and it bothers me, happy now?

IMO no fail should be 0.8.

Buny, it's a matter of fairness. The original vision of osu! didn't include super top-tiered maps. Now you're saying noone but top-tiered players should be playing them? And you're forgetting it's a matter of combos made... You're kind of just overlooking the fact that this issue only happens with these maps. It is the maps themselves that create the problem. If you want to play and support the continuance of these types of maps, then you should at least accept the flaws that come with them.

I'll give you a slightly different take on my example. AR 10 breaks Hard rock, making it easier to play. These types of maps imbalance the mods, it's not the other way around.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you guys want to make the argument that super difficult maps support those who prefer to play super difficult maps and thus contribute to the supporting of all skill levels, you must also agree then that rankable mods should exist that gives other players a fair chance at beating that map as well.

On what basis must someone agree? Neither opinion implies the other unless you build your argument on a nice fat stack of bad assumptions. These super hard maps are made for people who can play them as they're presented. Players without the skills have no right to pass these maps. The lesser-skilled players are the majority, and there are thousands of other maps suited to their skill level.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you can't beat the Half-time scores which have 0.3, then you're obviously not skilled enough to play that map, and are not one of the people targetted by the map, which is really like 5- 10 people or noone at all in the case of TAG maps.

Actually, if you can pass a map without mods, as originally presented, that kind of means you're skilled enough to play it. The target audience is probably these people and not the halftimers. How many maps do you see where the author states that it was designed for halftime?

Also, this assumes that 0.3x is a reasonable multiplier for Halftime at this level. It isn't. It takes combo, the thing that matters most in scoring, and makes it easier to get to such an extent that it heavily outweighs the 70% score penalty. It takes an already messed-up scoring system and distorts it even further.

TheVileOne wrote:

The reason that certain maps get more Easy tier mods in the top spots is that there is simply not enough players who can play it well enough without easy tier mods. This problem is inherent to the difficulty really. It's not something that can be fixed. It's a flaw of the beatmap, not the mod.

The map's fine. It's a flaw of the scoring system. If the scoring system wasn't broken as hell, halftime at 0.3x would be much more fair than it is now.

These maps aren't for you. They aren't for me. They're for people who wish to play at that level and compete with other players who also play at that level.

And it looks like you made another post while I was writing this, so I guess I'll disagree with that one too.

TheVileOne wrote:

IMO no fail should be 0.8.

The role of HP drain is another discussion entirely. Not sure I have a well-enough-formed opinion on my own to agree or disagree with changing Nofail's multiplier.

TheVileOne wrote:

The original vision of osu! didn't include super top-tiered maps.

The original vision of osu!, however, did include a broken scoring system that scales horribly to longer maps regardless of the difficulty. Being original makes it original. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it should never be changed.

TheVileOne wrote:

Now you're saying noone but top-tiered players should be playing them? And you're forgetting it's a matter of combos made... You're kind of just overlooking the fact that this issue only happens with these maps. It is the maps themselves that create the problem. If you want to play and support the continuance of these types of maps, then you should at least accept the flaws that come with them.

I'll give you a slightly different take on my example. AR 10 breaks Hard rock, making it easier to play. These types of maps imbalance the mods, it's not the other way around.

The handsome fellow writing this post wrote:

The map's fine. It's a flaw of the scoring system.

For further reading, see Aqo's first post all the way back on page one. He had this shit figured out already.

I don't normally post in these threads... they don't concern me. But they're fun to read and every once in a while someone makes a post that needs more disagreements than it's currently getting.

I'm actually glad there is SOME opposition, allows us to give more and better reasons for the proposals. One of the most truthful things we never really mentioned is indeed that HT used to work - but times are changing. We need a system built for now, not 3 years ago.

That's a good point. It's worth keeping in mind that the mods were made and balanced around 2007 and 2008 maps (try it - in general, easy mod actually DOES make those maps easier)

Since when has osu ever been limited to just extremely hard maps?

Either get better or play easier maps please.

The maps "broken" by Half-Time are so few in number it's hardly worth worrying about.

The reverse side of the "HT breaks maps" argument is also true, if these maps were created with the sole purpose of challenging players like Cookiezi, are they not broken in the first place? He isn't the standard of how to play, he's the epitome of a skill level everyone wants to reach. He already makes lonely DT scores on maps everyone else plays at normal speed.

If even 0.5% of active players could play the maps in question, HT scores would fade into the distance.

If you want "top tier elitist maps" - you have some, you just want to segregate the community by forming a "top tier elitist" group on the scoreboards of crazy maps. But you know what? The moment Cookiezi FC's FD[4d], someone is going to make and approve something even faster and harder, because it's possible. Hah... gl hf. Half-Time multiplier 0.01x here we come.

jesus1412 wrote:

We need a system built for now, not 3 years ago.

That about sums it up.

buny wrote:

Since when has osu ever been limited to just extremely hard maps?

Either get better or play easier maps please.

This.

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

The meaning of HT, NF, etc is to let you play maps that are targeted to better players than you.

The debate here is that some people believe that anyone that passes an extremely hard map nomod, even if his score is less than HT plays, is better than those HT players, thus they should be higher in ranks. Personally, I don't believe that. Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

But you know what? That's just my opinion. Like everyone else posts his/hers opinion. And on an abstract subject like who or what is better, usually neither side is wrong or right. They simply disagree. However, trying to nullify others' arguments with out-of-context excuses like "you shouldn't be expressing your opinion because...", it's just not constructive to say the least. Everyone can play that game, but some of us just like to have a healthy debate. Noone's life will become worse whatever the outcome of this thread might be, anyway.


p.s. lol, silly me, logic on teh intrawebz!

This thread isn't going to change anything anyway, don't worry yourself. It's a discussion that is heading out of hand.

Marblehead wrote:

Personally, I don't believe that. Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT.

You better start believing. Anybody who can pass atama/sousie/4d with normaltime has absolutely zero trouble of FCing those maps in halftime.
This is not an opinion this is factual.

At least the discussion has stayed on topic and not dissolved into flaming... mostly, anyway. Discussion is healthy, so I'm keeping the topic open unless it gets worse.

Aqo wrote:

much better normaltime score.

How is it better? Please elaborate.

RaneFire wrote:

How is it better? Please elaborate.

Can't tell if serious.

Please try playing those maps yourself and you'll get your answer.

RaneFire wrote:

Aqo wrote:

much better normaltime score.

How is it better? Please elaborate.

It's better in terms of skill, you need more skill for normaltime on hard maps rather than on halftime.

Aqo wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

How is it better? Please elaborate.

Can't tell if serious.

Please try playing those maps yourself and you'll get your answer.

That's the thing, your ability to play the map is better, but your score is rubbish. You are confusing the two. I am being serious, and yes I have played those maps, I've made it half-way through FD 4d with mouse-only nomod.

Doesn't that just mean the play is better, but the score isn't? Since the PLAY took more skill, though the same player can get a higher SCORE with halftime.

Marblehead wrote:

Since when has osu been limiting its users to play only maps that are targeted to them?

This argument has been brought up over and over again in this thread, and, tbh, it's completely ridiculous and unrelated to the discussion.
We're not trying to limit users to PLAYING only maps geared towards their skill level, we're uncomfortable with them RANKING HIGHLY on maps above their skill level due to a broken scoring system. Play maps with HT all you want, nobody's attempting to take that from you. But don't act like it's right to outrank every single top-skill player when you're not even really playing the same map, just because of how scoring works.

Marblehead wrote:

Furthermore, I doubt everyone that passes such a map is able to easily FC it with HT. Because if they could, they would do it to get a better rank. Unless they don't care about ranks and therefore they don't mind HTs being above nomods.

I'm sure val or rrtyui can very easily FC 4D with halftime, but they prefer to show their nomod scores, because it's wayyy better than FC with HT.
This map is so hard that less than 10 players passed it. I can't see how a FC with halftime is any better, it makes those crazy maps ridiculously easy.

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

MillhioreF wrote:

Look at Shotgun Symphony+ and StrangeProgram - I massively outranked Cookiezi, White Wolf, rrtyui, and a whole ton of other pros, even though I'm nowhere near their skill level. Those maps are exceptional because they're actually easier with Easy than they are with halftime, but on most crazy hard maps halftime allows beating virtually everybody else with a fraction of the skill.

there are only about 6 maps which are easier with easy mod than halftime, those maps are actually fine as it is - halftime and easy are balanced along with all the other mods for the most part, which is great. The newer maps are longer and faster which is why halftime begins to warp the scoreboard.



M4D P41NT SK1LL