This is the only part of it that I don't like and think it's completely stupid especially with mods taken into account.JappyBabes wrote:
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
HA.Aqo wrote:
comboing
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.Michi wrote:
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
So remove the halftime scores from pp calculations for those without and calculate them as a normal top40, as suggested in the OP. Difference is that you want to include yet another calculation for players with halftime. I would have to say this would overly complicate things and allow people to easily get top ranks on hards using "separate" rankings resulting in pp for invisible top ranks.bwross wrote:
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.jesus1412 wrote:
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
Some very valid points indeed, even after thinking about how making it rankable in it's own little group of scores I really can't see a way to make rewards fair. A pass on freedom dive 4d is obviously harder than say an 800 combo halftime, so where do we draw the line? Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.bwross wrote:
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.
And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.
Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Use the same pp formula to apply the accuracy? The pp doesn't have to be added on, just potential pp used in the calculation for acc.GoldenWolf wrote:
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted nowjesus1412 wrote:
Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
If it was my choice I'd say the same, but we need to please everyone. If they think it's fine for other people to have to compete with their scores then they should have to keep them until they can beat them too. I can't see a problem with this, it's only fair.Aqo wrote:
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.
If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
That's also what I think.jesus1412 wrote:
we need to please everyone
is taiko taken into accountAqo wrote:
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard._Gezo_ wrote:
is taiko taken into account
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.Aqo wrote:
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard._Gezo_ wrote:
is taiko taken into account
taiko has a score cap for hits unlike standard where it's unlimited.jesus1412 wrote:
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
Look at a shitton of maps in easy, most of the #1 are HT because of the longer spinners (the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard)jesus1412 wrote:
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
_Gezo_ wrote:
the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard
I'm technically one, I guess! Mostly I like it being ranked so that I can get A on tag4 or otherwise insane maps and not have an ugly C or something stuck in my rank list. I have no qualms about the scores being hidden from leaderboards and giving no pp, though, so I don't really count.Aqo wrote:
Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?
1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime
If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.TheVileOne wrote:
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not2010 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.TheVileOne wrote:
If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
+1Aqo wrote:
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.TheVileOne wrote:
If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
0.3x is way too much for the average length of maps we have today. Do you really think an FC on 4D or Atama or Pluto with HT is worth nearly that much compared to a nomod run on one of said maps?silmarilen wrote:
half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway
yes im supporting that feature aswell, but because its not the same as completely removing HTloseri wrote:
It's just that I don't want to see those scores at all. (which is why I'm supporting this request to filter stuff(You have no idea how much HT scores disgust me))
Yet a few of those same people choose half-time over real-time because they are more concerned with their stats than they are with showing that they can play a difficult map.buny wrote:
osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.TheVileOne wrote:
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not2010 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.
RaneFire wrote:
EDIT: About rank filtering according to mod, we still have the "viewable replays" issue, I want to see the non-HT replays. So that could work, so long as scores with difficulty reduction are saved as a separate set of 40 replays. And then another set of 40 replays are saved without difficulty reduction. Then the filtering would make more sense.
Surely the smartest decision is not having to put any effort into playing to get high ranks vs people who try hard to play hard maps.Marblehead wrote:
I hate missed notes with a passion. I'd rather watch an FC on HT, than a non-FC on no-mod. Actually, imo, the one that did an FC on HT made a smarter selection of mods to complete the map, than the one that did a non-FC. Picking the right mods in order to get the best score possible is a strategic aspect of the game.
Not being able to pass a map with nomod is not a reason to forbid the use of other mods to place in the ranks. Otherwise, why remove only HT and not every mod with less than 1.00x multiplier (i.e. easier)? While we're at it, along with removing any mod that shows that the map is too hard for you to rank at, why don't we remove non-FCs from the ranks too?
As I see it, the reason this thread exists and targets only HT is because some people want their 50x combo non-FC nomod to give more score/pp than the 1500x combo FC HT.