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Halftime

posted
Total Posts
189

How should halftime be changed?

It's fine as it is.
125
48.26%
It's unfair, but shouldn't be changed.
15
5.79%
Hide halftime scores by default.
18
6.95%
Unrank halftime mod.
56
21.62%
Lower the halftime multiplier.
37
14.29%
Other.
8
3.09%
Total votes: 259
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yoyomster
What about a seperate segment of beatmaps (only insanes obviously) that can only be played no-mod?
(only include new maps, old ones stay as they are)
GensokyoAkuma


Hate me please.
GoldenWolf
*Hates Akuma*
Kuro

Seph wrote:

this should be considered in Taiko/CtB too. I've seen top ranks in Taiko (in easy/normal diffs tho) that HT people get higher scores than people without them. Same goes for CtB, some maps don't convert properly to CtB (i.e. pixel jumps appearing in maps, totally weird patterns), no mod plays should give higher pp gain than those with difficulty reducing mods.


What he said... My no mod score gets beaten by someone who used half time mod..
she_old

Kuro wrote:

Seph wrote:

this should be considered in Taiko/CtB too. I've seen top ranks in Taiko (in easy/normal diffs tho) that HT people get higher scores than people without them. Same goes for CtB, some maps don't convert properly to CtB (i.e. pixel jumps appearing in maps, totally weird patterns), no mod plays should give higher pp gain than those with difficulty reducing mods.


What he said... My no mod score gets beaten by someone who used half time mod..
So basically HT is giving people unfair top ranks, brilliant \o\
Michi
Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
Aqo

Michi wrote:

except the people who do those scores but who cares
pretty sure there is not a single HalfTime-on-crazy-map player that would complain about their scores being pushed under scores of people who actually managed to pull off a passing performance on those maps in normal time.

if you're not going to unrank it, you'd need to lower the multiplier to at least 1% or lower (compared to 30% right now).
personally I feel the mod is fine to play around with and setting goals on some maps that would otherwise not be possible (I'm not talking about ranked maps in this case) so it should definitely stay, but it's just not fit for ranking. It should be in the same group as mods like relax and autopilot.

The amount of difficulty-decrease that HalfTime does on maps above 180bpm is very exponential and cannot be correctly represented with a fixed score reduction multiplier. On long-enough maps where the max combo is high enough there will always be a problem with this.
Topic Starter
jesse1412

Michi wrote:

Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
GoldenWolf

jesus1412 wrote:

the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
enik
How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT? example: #40 300 combo > #41 1000 combo HalfTime > #42 280 combo. If there's less than 40 non-HT passes then just show HT right after them. So people who put a lot of effort to perform a map won't get shadowed by HT players (but they still will be rewarded for good play too). I don't think though amount of pp giving needs to be reduced since you can simply get more pp from random hard/insane.
Aqo

enik wrote:

How about to make HT scores weigh less than top40 non-HT?
Due to the nature of standard's scoring system this is impossible to implement.
Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
JappyBabes

Aqo wrote:

Had standard used mania's scoring system, it would have been. Would be nice if it did; that scoring system is miles better.
Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
Aqo

JappyBabes wrote:

Hard capping the score to 1m regardless of difficulty increasing mods applied is good? What.
This is the only part of it that I don't like and think it's completely stupid especially with mods taken into account.
However the way comboing and accuracy is handled in mania is superior to standard in every possible way.
winber1

Aqo wrote:

comboing
HA.

aka it doesn't do shit.
buny
So you want it like mania scoring, all accuracy no combo?
Winshley
Accuracy only, no combo = Unranked mod.

That's how Relax and AutoPilot do anyway, the difference is that there's no "punish score" unlike osu!mania.
bwross

jesus1412 wrote:

Michi wrote:

Lowering the multiplier wouldn't solve anything... halftime scores would still be on the topranks of really crazy maps. They should just be hidden by default and everyone is happy. except the people who do those scores but who cares
...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.
Topic Starter
jesse1412

bwross wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

...and still the votes for decrease the multiplier increases. I should probably mention that it can't be unranked so the only option remaining is to hide the scores and remove them from pp weightings.
I wouldn't say completely remove... just don't have them count against the non-HT plays, by treating them as if they're not there in the calculations. A good HT play of an extreme map is still a good play and should be worth pp, but it should be handled more like its a different map when played HT (but not the the point of formally doing that, just make the math work that way and provide a filter on the ranking chart and everything's copacetic)... easier and worth a lot less pp for the HTers.
So remove the halftime scores from pp calculations for those without and calculate them as a normal top40, as suggested in the OP. Difference is that you want to include yet another calculation for players with halftime. I would have to say this would overly complicate things and allow people to easily get top ranks on hards using "separate" rankings resulting in pp for invisible top ranks.
bwross
It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.

And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.

Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Topic Starter
jesse1412

bwross wrote:

It's not really that complicated... computers are built to do this sort of thing, and this is a really an easy thing for them.

And it won't really allow you to get top ranks on hards that are worth anything by using HT... because those simply won't be worth anything. There's a difference between taking an extreme map with 7.5 OPS and HT it to 5.6 (which is still a very respectable insane and should count for something) and taking a 3.5 OPS hard and HT it to 2.6 (which is well back in the normal range). Add in the penalties to pp for using HT and the lack of a decent rank, and you've just gained diddly squat for spending 33% more time than if you just played the normal. Plus, the curve can always be made non-linear so that anything HTed in even the moderate insane range barely ranks as an easy. It's just a matter of running the numbers to find something appropriate. There's nothing quite like giving a munchkin hope and then watching them waste hours trying to twink something that's been so curved down that it will never give them anything... it's one of the small joys of game development.

Plus, it's unlikely that a plan that removes scores from consideration will get any ground... that's not far from just unranking the mod, which isn't going to happen. And so we should start by looking for solutions where everything can count, because, ideally, every valid play should be considered for what it is worth when it comes to evaluating pp. And because of that, HT plays should be evaluated at their actual difficulty and against other scores of the same difficulty, and they should not interfere with people that are essentially playing a different song.
Some very valid points indeed, even after thinking about how making it rankable in it's own little group of scores I really can't see a way to make rewards fair. A pass on freedom dive 4d is obviously harder than say an 800 combo halftime, so where do we draw the line? Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.

An easy way to separate it would be to make players who enable halftime mod see halftime plays in the top ranks of a map. This way player who don't want to see halftime don't have to and those interested can see it.
GoldenWolf

jesus1412 wrote:

Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted now
Topic Starter
jesse1412

GoldenWolf wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Really I'd say just reward users with the accuracy, play count, ranked score etc that they would normally recieve and leave pp out of it for halftime scores.
Problem is accuracy is pp weighted now
Use the same pp formula to apply the accuracy? The pp doesn't have to be added on, just potential pp used in the calculation for acc.
Aqo
The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.

If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
Topic Starter
jesse1412

Aqo wrote:

The problem is that PP takes only the top score into account and that it's possible to get a higher score with HalfTime than without it due to comboing, despite the quality of play actually being much lower.

If you really want to solve this, the only logical way to do it is to make HalfTime not produce a score; i.e. change it into an unranked mod the same fashion autopilot and relax are.
If it was my choice I'd say the same, but we need to please everyone. If they think it's fine for other people to have to compete with their scores then they should have to keep them until they can beat them too. I can't see a problem with this, it's only fair.
Aqo

jesus1412 wrote:

we need to please everyone
That's also what I think.

But is there anybody in this thread who voted for keeping HalfTime as it is and actually has any top scores with HalfTime?
Because all I see are people who supposedly do not support unranking HalfTime but they're not players who have any HalfTime ranks themselves so everything they're saying is based on assumptions and not on an actual connection to this topic.

Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?

1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime

If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.

afaik, even people who play with HalfTime often prefer not to finish maps with it so that their HT score won't submit and shadow over their normaltime score. If there is anybody here that is different please say something. However hearing opinions from people who are not interested in contesting on maps where the whole normaltime vs halftime issue exists (i.e. any map where getting an FC is far from trivial) does not really progress this topic anywhere.
Yuzeyun

Aqo wrote:

1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime

If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
is taiko taken into account
Aqo

_Gezo_ wrote:

is taiko taken into account
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard.
Yuzeyun
In that case my vote doesn't change, I think this is fine as it is, for what it gives (Almost a third of the score given normally at normal speed, and only a tenth more for DT, though for some people DT should get higher in the multiplier, a fifth for some.) because real hard maps in nomod can get hell easier with HT. (See for example FD, if you clearly understand which map I'm talking about)
Topic Starter
jesse1412

Aqo wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

is taiko taken into account
This discussion is solely about standard, since the whole issue is due to standard's combo/fc score system and the way HT scores break it. I'm aware the case is different in taiko, and don't think HT should change on it. Consider this topic purely for standard.
Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
Aqo

jesus1412 wrote:

Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
taiko has a score cap for hits unlike standard where it's unlimited.
(in other words: an FC isn't that much of a bigger score than a good-non-fc play, and halftime scores can't compete with normaltime scores unless the normaltime score is really bad to begin with)
Yuzeyun

jesus1412 wrote:

Why shouldn't this be the same for taiko if it applies there? I have have no knowledge on it so I wont comment but if it's a problem then let's fix it.
Look at a shitton of maps in easy, most of the #1 are HT because of the longer spinners (the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard)
On higher difficulties like FD it basically is the same (on 1/8 spam maps too)
GoldenWolf

_Gezo_ wrote:

the spinners take time and OD into account unlike standard

The spinners in standard take OD into account
MillhioreF

Aqo wrote:

Is there anybody in this entire game who meets the following criteria?

1. Has a top-40 score with HalfTime
-AND-
2. Does not support the idea of unranking HalfTime

If one person like this exists, please post in this thread.
I'm technically one, I guess! Mostly I like it being ranked so that I can get A on tag4 or otherwise insane maps and not have an ugly C or something stuck in my rank list. I have no qualms about the scores being hidden from leaderboards and giving no pp, though, so I don't really count.

Relevant to the topic at hand: standard spinners have less max points with higher OD, and are adjusted for modified time so the max score is the same. In Taiko, spinners are worth MORE points with higher OD, and aren't adjusted for modified time (halftime makes them worth more points, doubletime makes them worth less)
TheVileOne
There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not 20 10 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
buny

TheVileOne wrote:

There is no issue with Half time. If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it, it's too difficult. osu! is meant to be played by everyone, not 20 10 gifted people. The issue is not with Half time but the map itself. It's not suitably playable without mods.
osu is meant to be played by everyone, that's why we have easier maps.

Competitiveness isn't for everyone, but it is for a lot of people hence why we have harder and harder maps.
Aqo

TheVileOne wrote:

If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.

So yeah +1 to what buny said. That's why different difficulties exist. Not everybody is supposed to be able to play everything.
she_old

Aqo wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

If a song is so difficult, people need to use half time to pass it
This line of thinking is wrong and it's the opposite of logic. The whole point of very challenging maps is to have scores only by the very top, since they're maps that are intended to be played only by a few players anyway, being the "endgame" content.
+1

This is why it should be unranked/lowered a lot, it allows scrub tier players to compete with top tier players on an unfair level.
If maps are too hard for players then they should just train more, allowing people to disregard hard work to get high ranks is immoral to begin with.
silmarilen
half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway
Aqo

silmarilen wrote:

half time already gives only 0.3x score, if people cant pass that with nomod the halftime deserves to be above them. people will recognise the skill of the nomod player anyway
0.3x is way too much for the average length of maps we have today. Do you really think an FC on 4D or Atama or Pluto with HT is worth nearly that much compared to a nomod run on one of said maps?

Even 0.01x for HT feels way too generous, and as longer maps come out it'd cause trouble too.
she_old
Though half time reduces the difficulty of the map immensely, and thus the "hard" parts in nomod become an easy fc, while there might be a numerous amount of "hard" parts.
0.3x is too much in this case.
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