-Post Deleted-

if you read in the thread, the general opinion is op op op op oppan gangnam style that the map is a good map. nobody has anything against those.
as you see, nobody complains about andreas newest ranked map, either, as it is not a bad map.

The problem being addressed here is that bad maps are a byproduct of speedranking. It was noted early on that people are perfectly fine if GOOD maps get speedranked because they are good and should be playable. Mediocre and below maps however would benefit from the time spent cooking in the pending maps section.

Good maps = GOOD
Bad maps = BAD

Speedranking = Without moderation, more BAD maps get through.

Thus this thread is born

The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.

About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.

Now if the priority system actually worked, this problem would be a little less prominent.

Well,the other complaint is actually that the people getting the speedrank are the same OVER AND OVER

did yeahyeahyeah get other speedranks?

Dangaard wrote:

The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.

i really liked ur solution u provided on 9th page of this thread, i will quote it once again:

Dangaard wrote:

The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.

Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.

Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.

sadly it was skipped

if the bats/mats suddenly stop mod via pm or queue, and start mod based on SP priority only, it will prevent speedranking in any form

u can ask "what if someone throw N stars on map" to get it first in map queue.. well.. if someone got so many kudosu to do that, thats mean he spend lot of time to help other mappers and in some way deserve to get priority mod

since the SP system was changed, it should work like it was intended

Dangaard wrote:

About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.

So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.

Except this one hasn't gotten unranked, just saying.

lolcubes wrote:

Dangaard wrote:

About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.

So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.

Except yeahyeahyeah doesn't have so many speedranks

12 days rank, 2 difficulties only

I belive this map is exagerated, 2 diffs (You call this a good diff spread? many maps need to have minimum 3 diffs for being ranked), only 2 thread pages and 9 mod, bubble in 4 day when maps got 5/6/7 pages, 2x~3x mods, more than 3~4 month old and no MAT post. You think this is fair?

And I belive SP system is useless, I moded many maps even if my modding skill is no so good for increase my map priority. Now what? SP +12 or SP +50 don't change anything MAT don't mod it, normal I'm new mapper, MATs preffer mod map from know mapper or other MATs/BATs. That give some MAT / BAT maps speedrank and let normal/new mappers map's die because they can't get a MAT mod even when they have high SP and many "normal" mods.

I belive a rule must be added like if a map is not minimum 1 month old and have not recived at least 10 or 15 mods it can't be ranked.

I aslo think the thing in panding beatmaps should say
"Needs modding (No MAT/BAT posts yet)." instead of just "Needs modding (No BAT posts yet)", and post by MAT which aren't MAT when they posted them not counted (Because I've two MAT post on my 1st page, but they aren't MAT when they posted them )

This is a problem that can't be solved in any other way except the MAT/BAT team changing their own behaviors. We can't expect MAT/BATs to look at every single pending map, so naturally if a well known mapper like Andrea posts a new map, chances are that people will want to look at that map because it has a certain level of guaranteed quality. I can't really blame modders for skipping over no-names since oftentimes modding a subpar map feels like a waste of time since it probably won't get ranked anyway.

At the same time though, there are a lot of good (read: at least rankable) maps out there that just don't get looked at enough, and probably deserve to be looked at. I know that a lot of "unknown" mappers try really hard to get people to look at their maps, and eventually after a long period of time get enough SP on their map to feel like it's ready to be looked at by a MAT/BAT. It sucks if you work that hard for that long to get anyone to mod your map, then see a map by a well known mapper get ranked in a matter of days after it is posted.

It's pretty obvious that the SP system needs a rework, but that cannot work on its own. The MAT/BAT have to more actively ignore who made the map, and rather put priority maps that have been modded a lot and have been in Pending Beatmaps for longer periods of time. We should look to reward all who put in the time and effort, rather than only rewarding those who have an established name.

Totally supporting the idea of preventing speedrank. But If one map really deserves getting ranked in no time, then why not.

Why ARE all of Andrea's maps being ranked so early? Is she able to rank her own maps?

>she

Andrea makes fun maps so there's no problem with speedranking them ;;
the real problem is how no-name maps are being ignored

just need to get MATs who actually like to try out random maps and would actually care to take a minute to write something after playtesting
that is all

I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.

Sakura wrote:

I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.

What you said is very true. Sadly most people just don't listen to mods
But if you at least try to mod someone's map and then they don't listen, they can't complain about their mapset being ignored
Right now a lot of good mapsets receive no attention at all because all modders give/gave up on modding

But a MAT (as opposed to non-MAT modder) should set a goal to mod once in a while, imo, even if it feels futile. At least, check 10 random maps per week that you didn't play before. Checking one map is usually like what, 3~ minutes? a whole mapset maybe 10 minutes? even less since you can just DT the lowdiffs. Checking 10 random mapsets per week + throwing random mods = 2 hours "work" at most, and it's not really "work" since you're just playing osu and writing your opinion on map issues. If every MAT did just this minimal thing there would be a huge change on this issue.

Mithost wrote:

Why ARE all of Andrea's maps being ranked so early? Is she able to rank her own maps?

I know Andrea is a Female name too, but he is a male >.<

Aqo wrote:

Checking one map is usually like what, 3~ minutes?

Nope, don't think so. 3 minutes allows two rushed run-throughs, max, not including time to note possible fixes. You've got an agenda of hitsounds, spacing, flow, rhythm patterns, slider shapes, etc... I really don't think anyone could really check a map in 3 minutes.

Though, not everybody wants to spend more than 3 minutes checking maps.

Sakura wrote:

I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.

True but not always. I'm recently saw some exceptions. Well its not "some". I modded so many maps and they answered to me and explained everything, so... They are also trying to do anything to get it ranked.
I know this very well since I'm a newbie mapper and I also tried to do anything for my map, but even tho I got BAT post, no bubble until now. I think if I throw more than 1 star to my map it is just a waste, (+22 SP and many mods). I think that's more than enough for a bubble, but MATs are just ignore it.

Back to topic
If even if its just the MATs wandering around the pending maps forum, they able to bubble good maps because there are so many with low (8+) SP. But they are just afk or mod maps for a well known mapper. And get mods from them is almost impossible for a newbie mapper like me.

I think the goal should be to even out the mapper:map ratio between newbie mappers and popular mappers. Andrea has 161 maps ranked (most of them 2-3 difficulties) when most mappers struggle to get 1 or 2 ranked (having more than 4 difficulties). If anything, I'm tempted to see how easily I can map 2 difficulties and get it ranked. It's much easier than getting 5 ranked, so why bother?

Mithost wrote:

I think the goal should be to even out the mapper:map ratio between newbie mappers and popular mappers

Don't be ridiculous. While it's already hard enough to get the current system working properly, why should we add even more rules which make everything even more complicated? The mapper's name should not matter at all, that means we should neither prefer maps by popular mappers nor refuse them only because they are made by a popular mapper. It should always come down to the map itself, which is actually supported by the current SP system, we just need to get it straight.

Also I got the feeling this discussion here has looped a few times already, maybe we should start reading what other people write.

Dangaard wrote:

Also I got the feeling this discussion here has looped a few times already, maybe we should start reading what other people write.

I've stated many times that hindering the ranking process will do nothing.

@ everyone else, read previous pages before you bother contributing, as for all you know, it may of already been suggested/pointed out/squashed.

But as Dangaard did state earlier, following the rules of SP and what it was originally intended is correct, but how do we enforce this within the team? As I have been duly noting, change comes from within the team to follow what guidelines they originally put out to begin with. And when a BAT is the biggest abuser of said guidelines, how does this reflect on how the team works internally?

But all in all Dangaard, sure. Let's get it straight. It starts with the team, no?

"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.

So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?

IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.

We all know the problem. Every single one of us. We just need more people like dkun inside the team to point it out without people going apeshit.

Gabi wrote:

"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.

So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?

IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.

agreed, ppy, delay no more

BATs not having to do anything because they are volunteers is ridiculous. I volunteer a lot around town and not once have I been told that it is not my responsibility to help the job get done. The job at hand here is getting quality maps ranked based on the priority system, and I know that if I asked the BAT team, many of them couldn't tell me a map that was ranked in the past 2 weeks without checking the site. I understand the 2 week breaks for exams/vacations/etc, but when more than half the BAT team says they are too busy with other things, and their breaks last over 4 months, there is a serious problem.

I said earlier, I understand if you are too busy for ranking maps. That's life. Your account title is BAT, so either do your job or save yourself from threads like this.

obviously there needs to be BAT points for how often people mod maps and then if your BAT points go too low you become un-BAT'd, meanwhile non-BATs who mod a lot would get high BAT points and would be auto-notified for the team as suggested BAT promotion.

tee~he obviously not

how about map in 2 weeks need 2 bubbles and 2 BAT's mod?

As has been said many times before, there is no need to put restrictions on the ranking process. This is counter productive.

The BATs just need to shift their priority to the correct places and also do better quality checking when ranking maps.

=w=

This whole discussion leads to nowhere. Everyone has made his point. Now one can only wait and hope for the BATs to make up their mind. I honestly don't think they will but one can appeal to them to do so. That's what we have done now over 13 pages, it is enough.

/locked

Gabi wrote:

"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.

So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?

IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.

I'm pretty sure this is what I've been trying to say for the last 10 pages. Thanks for condensing it into something small and something that people will pay attention to.

But as I said before, change comes from within the team to solve this issue. Everyone that I've spoken to on a personal level about it is fed up with it as well, but it appears that they can't do anything about it due to what those said...

those wrote:

We all know the problem. Every single one of us. We just need more people like dkun inside the team to point it out without people going apeshit.

Problem is brought up? The opposers go apeshit and nothing happens as a result. Problem is brought up again? Same process, rinse and repeat. People are tired of trying to fix an issue that half the team, give or take is reluctant to fix. The BAT nor the Admin team isn't oblivious to this issue, they just choose to not confront it since you know, one of the biggest offenders of this is a BAT himself.

Being blunt is a fast way of getting on the team's bad side, and starting up threads like these get yourself pinned on most of the admin's hit lists. But hey, for the greater good of osu!, right?

tl;dr democracy does not work in a game such as this.

~o~

Tshemmp wrote:

This whole discussion leads to nowhere. Everyone has made his point. Now one can only wait and hope for the BATs to make up their mind. I honestly don't think they will but one can appeal to them to do so. That's what we have done now over 13 pages, it is enough.

/locked

I think it's up to myself or an administrator to decide when my own thread gets locked, thanks.

Hello guys.

t/93158
So uh, a 9 day speedrank and yet another derank.

dkun wrote:

Hello guys.

t/93158
So uh, a 9 day speedrank and yet another derank.

I wonder why they skipped the fact half of the song isn't mapped and its unrankable. o.o

This is why multi-opinion ranks should be implemented. This means multiple BATs in on it (assuming the map is relatively new).

It also bothers me how Andrea has 160+ maps and they are mostly 2 difficulty maps with questionable effort involved/rankability.

Going to post to say that keep the discussion limited to the issues with speedranking, don't stray to speaking about Andrea unless it concerns speedranking

ie. don't flame people

Mithost wrote:

This is why multi-opinion ranks should be implemented. This means multiple BATs in on it (assuming the map is relatively new).

It also bothers me how Andrea has 160+ maps and they are mostly 2 difficulty maps with questionable effort involved/rankability.

There's other options available to resolve this, but adding on to the approval process is not one of the effective ones.

thelewa wrote:

Going to post to say that keep the discussion limited to the issues with speedranking, don't stray to speaking about Andrea unless it concerns speedranking

ie. don't flame people

fwiw: #1 speedranking culprit, this thread wouldn't exist without his speedranked deranks.

I don't mean to flame, it's just that so many speedranks and so many unranks coming from the same person raised this issue in the first place.

dkun wrote:

Hello guys.

t/93158
So uh, a 9 day speedrank and yet another derank.

2008 here we come again - E-I 'spreads' and not even nearly fully mapped .mp3s, huzzah /o/

I pointed out the massive amount of unused MP3 on page 2. I'm just posting here because I'm mad

BATs need to look at speed ranks with EXTRA care, not extra confidence that the map is good. Shure, people who have many beatmaps ranked are usually good at making maps, but that doesn't mean that their maps will meet a quality level in a small amount of time. Check to see if mods were actually listened to, and check for problems with the map.

I still don't want to see 2 diff map spam, especially when there isn't a taiko >:O

^There are also mappers without (m-)any ranked maps that have a high quality standard but aren't getting any attention at all, that's the sad part :/

it amused me, to be honest. It's like, we make these huge walls of text on how to make things better, have a sensed, productive and constructive discussion and pointed out some stuff that shouldn't happen again.

And it doesn't freaking change anything in the end. If anything, it got worse. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was speedranked on purpose to make us rage, but assumptions like these suck, so I won't.

And once again, to thelewa, yes, we can quote names, because like dkun stated, very few people are guilty of speedranking mediocre maps, and we're mentioning the one offender par excellence. After all, and I'm going to be very honest here, when I interpret a good 50% of the posts here, I get something along the lines of "Dammit Andrea, stop your BS". I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying, that's what happens.

We've established that speedranking is bad when the map doesn't deserve it. As in, it's "rankable", but it isn't "good". I've made a few posts about that already. The sheer majority of speedranked maps are maps that don't stand out by their quality - they stand out by popular song choice. We've established that these maps shouldn't be ranked, and yet, this happened. Again.
You've got to understand that people are about sick of it now. Wouldn't it be more rewarding for the mapper who put a lot of effort into his map, looked actively for mods, and listened to/applied them to get their map ranked fast, rather than the mapper who makes some 2-diff mapset with plain mapping, with very few/lousy mods too often disregarded, and ranks it in a couple of days through relations with the XAT? Come on now. The star priority is supposed to put the best maps in the limelight, so that these maps get looked at by the XAT and eventually get ranked first, because they deserve it, so how come this is happening?

I doubt we're taken seriously.

There is a mindset in the BAT team that gives them a ticket out of "having to do anything", including changing their attitude/methods for whatever reason. Sure we have the ranking criteria, but that only applies after a map is selected for possible ranking. The BAT team is very corruptible when it comes to these things because it seems like there is a lack of... order. An example:

Player: Hey BAT, why are you so inactive/lazy/hasty when it comes to ranking/modding maps? That's your job!
BAT: I'm not paid to be a BAT, so it's not a job. /conversation

When we confront peppy on the issue, we get a more solid (yet still troublesome) rebuttal. "I am working on something that will fix this issue" or "Because it was designed like this, it works better than if we implemented your idea". With the BAT team having a sturdy wall of "logic" infront of them, the only way we can change things in the ranking process is to change the ranking criteria, which is done by posting word walls like this. There are a few BAT members that read these wordwalls, and they are also the ones unranking maps, proposing changes to ranking criteria to BATs, and listening to players. Sakura comes to mind when I think of this.

tl;dr: We need more Sakura.

just grab the head of the problem, at rip it off. we all know who is this certain BAT, who shall not be named but sounds a little bit like sangria, is the main abuser of the system. expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further. in fact, every XAT who is constantly involved in such questionable ranks (not only speedwise, but qualitywise) and only seems to mod for a certain group of mappers should get a time out. everybody knows roughly who these people are, and everybody knows they only abuse their power and sit on their colored names. they don't do much, if anything, for the community, they don't do the things they should do, so why should they keep their place?

probably around 50% of the XAT would be cut off if peppy grabs his balls and does something, but they didn't do much to begin with, so they are replaceable. in general, the standards for getting a position in the MAT and more importantly BAT-team should be a lot higher than they are at the moment. I mean, come on, you don't even need to speak half decent english to be a MAT or BAT.

sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.

Tanzklaue wrote:

just grab the head of the problem, at rip it off. we all know who is this certain BAT, who shall not be named but sounds a little bit like sangria, is the main abuser of the system. expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further. in fact, every XAT who is constantly involved in such questionable ranks (not only speedwise, but qualitywise) and only seems to mod for a certain group of mappers should get a time out. everybody knows roughly who these people are, and everybody knows they only abuse their power and sit on their colored names. they don't do much, if anything, for the community, they don't do the things they should do, so why should they keep their place?

probably around 50% of the XAT would be cut off if peppy grabs his balls and does something, but they didn't do much to begin with, so they are replaceable. in general, the standards for getting a position in the MAT and more importantly BAT-team should be a lot higher than they are at the moment. I mean, come on, you don't even need to speak half decent english to be a MAT or BAT.

sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.

This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.

Tanzklaue wrote:

*Stuff*
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.

On another note, peppy is now plural.

CXu wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

*Stuff*
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.

On another note, peppy is now plural.

lol sorry can't resist to post, laugh so hard

Tanzklaue wrote:

expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further.

This would do nothing since he can ask for mods and get them almost instantly, ask for bubbles and get them almost instantly, ect. The same thing has happened to others in the past.

Can we actually get a post from Andrea in here? I'd love to see his opinion in the subject.

Blue Dragon wrote:

Can we actually get a post from Andrea in here? I'd love to see his opinion in the subject.

It's one of two pieces to the puzzle that we are missing. The other piece is peppy's current opinion on this matter.

This PM chatlog is posted with permission of Andrea


Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.

^ I'm not against Andrea, but this is really surprising.

Okay, this is now better.

Now I'd like to see why these specific people (mostly BATs and MATs, that say that don't accept requests) do that. I mean... Not trying to provoke anything here, but why would someone mod a map without even asked to while people are struggling to get their maps ranked while they are ignored?

This is strange. Why would people (especially XATs) rush towards andrea's maps and mod them? I could see some players rushing towards popular mappers in hope for a mod4mod/advice or something, but XATs? I am confused

Sakura wrote:

Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.

We did a while ago already, but people keep being ignorant. Also I suppose this should be discussed internally, since it's basically a MAT/BAT problem.

Shiro wrote:

This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.

it's not nice to blame everybody here for something I wrote. I posted this, not the rest of the people who discuss this, thus it is my opinion, and only mine, so please, don't say that others didn't behave correctly.
to the "false assumptions": what should I do if not assume these things? the whole thing is as transparent as a brick wall, so I can't really do many other things but assuming. I am sorry that the post was quite outrageous, and it really wasn't thoughtful enough for this thread, and the purposes of this thread. still, I think something should happen, because if Andrea didn't lie, then other XATs should get a big reminder that there not only BATs and MATs and popular mappers in this game, but many others who really need and appreciate help from the XATs. the critic still is the same: the XATs have to change their mind and stop only modding maps from only a small amount of people, and focus on the community as a whole.

and @CXu: yes, all of the peppies in this world have to acknowledge the problem that speedranking of unfinished or bad maps is. :< I'm sorry for failing at english while criticizing that XATs should be able to speak english q.q

Sakura wrote:

Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.

Hey we found solution - XAT's needs to change their modding policies and mod not only popular / others XATs maps, but mod basing on star priority.
My opinion: If XAT's <mainly bats> do their work bad, they need to change or get demoted, really they are not only people in the world which can be BAT's.
Ofc. flame war begin.
Edit: We're discussing here, and I wonder if some of that bats which we mean, are reading this.

Sakura wrote:

This PM chatlog is posted with permission of Andrea

21:59:35: <Sakura> however there's something i want to ask you
21:59:52: <Sakura> have you ever put yourself in the shoes of the other mappers?
22:00:39: <Sakura> as in, ask people for mods and mods on your maps, MATs and BATs not coming to your calls, spending months on trying to get it ranked, while in the meantime a BAT gets 5-6 or even 7 maps ranked?
22:01:26: <Andrea> yeah I did... that isn't nice at all I suppose...
22:01:40: <Andrea> I had a 9 months pending map too so I know
22:02:03: <Sakura> now even worst case scenario, imagine that your map has a lot of SP and is on first page, and has been bubbled and on first page for a month or 2
22:02:16: <Sakura> then, that BAT's map gets in first page and gets immediately ranked afterwards
22:02:31: <Andrea> I'd rage badly, of course
22:02:45: <Sakura> well tell you, that's how the whole community feels right now with your maps
22:02:55: <Sakura> but the thing is, that isn't your fault
22:03:05: <Sakura> you just make the map in hopes to get it ranked like everyone else
22:03:33: <Sakura> the thing is that the BATs and MATs themselves go towards your map as soon as it gets there, regardless of the other maps
22:04:55: <Andrea> yeah that's the thing
22:05:04: <Andrea> most of the times I don't even ask for mod
22:05:12: <Andrea> but MATs or BATs comes there and mod it

Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.

Solutions have been pointed out on the thread as it is.

If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.

Tanzklaue wrote:

Shiro wrote:

This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.

it's not nice to blame everybody here for something I wrote. I posted this, not the rest of the people who discuss this, thus it is my opinion, and only mine, so please, don't say that others didn't behave correctly.

Exactly. You're assuming the whole BAT/MAT is fine with all these speedranks->unranks, which is far from being true. The only ones who are fine with them are the ones who are involved.

dkun wrote:

If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.

Sorry but I looked at http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55626 when I check the first page of pending randomly without being requested. This is your freedom to believe or not. If you don't believe facts there'll be nothing we can do.

If you ask for reason that I go there, that is SP.

wmfchris wrote:

dkun wrote:

If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.

Sorry but I looked at http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55626 when I check the first page of pending randomly without being requested. This is your freedom to believe or not. If you don't believe facts there'll be nothing we can do.

If you ask for reason that I go there, that is SP.

I hope you understand my point in posting this image.

I think one should be very cautious when checking SP. After all, like we said before, a guy with 50 kd can boost his map to +50 without it ever been modded once. I'm not saying that being able to star your map is a bad thing, but in my opinion XAT should work like this: count how many mods the map got so far, how many of said mods were applied, and to what extent. Then, look at the map itself, and make out if it is "rankable", or if it's "good". If it's just "rankable", move on to another map, or at least don't bubble/rank it outright. If it's "good", then do your best for the map to be ranked as quickly as possible, following the modding process, of course.

I've always taken for granted that XAT are here to help mappers, and thus are willing to help them, no matter how hard, tedious, or complicated the task is. Am I mistaken when I think that? Are there XAT that don't want to help mappers out there? If so, then they should probably try, methinks.

If someone has 50 SP to waste that means they have done a lot of good modding themselves. It doesn't substitute for real mods, but it is worth a check by a BAT to see how far it is getting along. Also, this shouldn't be a reason to stop using the SP system entirely. BATs should use the SP system but to save time they should wait for there to be a large amount of mods or multiple kd givers before they give their own opinion.

Well, maybe differentiate star priority and priority from mods?
Like, the total priority is the same, but it shows somewhere how many are stars and how many are mods:
(23 stars, 5 mods) or (3 stars, 9 mods) <-- write that somewhere so it's atleast visible, and doesn't require us to count stars.

Feature request it?

You can calculate the number of mods by yourself, and I already brought the idea of displaying the number of mods (that is, posts that were given kd) next to the star priority more than 3 weeks ago.

^I even contributed a green star for this Feature Request D;

Limit the maximum Stars giveable by the same user to the same map.
It'll be better if the mapper itself will start spending more for other maps than his, And about 3-4 Star per map should be good, I really hate seeing Star walls, with almost ALL of them gaved by the same people.

I have much to say but I am lazy, so just let me just state my conclusion.

Fellow mappers, do you want a totally fair ranking system in which all mappers are treated the same with no privilege due to experience or seniority whatsoever, or do you want a somewhat unfair ranking system in which your efforts or good records are rewarded with more privileges?

Tell you what, I prefer the latter.

But if you throw in the variable "are you acquainted with key personnel in the ranking system"?

Tell you what, I am disappointed but I had to choose the first one.

Now you think, oh surely there must be something in between these two extremes while addressing that variable?

Tell you what, if you've got a solution, it's got to be something totally revolutionary.

^ Stop talking like that. D:

Mr Color wrote:

If it's just "rankable", move on to another map, or at least don't bubble/rank it outright. If it's "good", then do your best for the map to be ranked as quickly as possible, following the modding process, of course.

Err, you mean... when it's only "rankable", help the mapper get things right, right? It's no good if we ignore a map just like that. Either way, I think every map should be treated the same... as in, we should always try our best.

Mr Color wrote:

I've always taken for granted that XAT are here to help mappers, and thus are willing to help them, no matter how hard, tedious, or complicated the task is. Am I mistaken when I think that? Are there XAT that don't want to help mappers out there? If so, then they should probably try, methinks.

I'm sure most, if not all, XATs are willing to help. The mappers are the ones who don't want to be helped sometimes ("it's my style leave it alone I don't want to change it"), and that stops the ranking process too.
This is regarding the actual modding process, of course.

CXu wrote:

Well, maybe differentiate star priority and priority from mods?
Like, the total priority is the same, but it shows somewhere how many are stars and how many are mods:
(23 stars, 5 mods) or (3 stars, 9 mods) <-- write that somewhere so it's atleast visible, and doesn't require us to count stars.

The one problem I've always seen with this feature proposal though, is that mod posts by most newbie/regular users are... not very helpful, and it's always up to the XAT to get things right.
If only we could differentiate "very good mod posts" from "regular mod posts", that'd make this work... but then again, that makes things too complicated, I think.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Limit the maximum Stars giveable by the same user to the same map.
It'll be better if the mapper itself will start spending more for other maps than his, And about 3-4 Star per map should be good, I really hate seeing Star walls, with almost ALL of them gaved by the same people.

I'm sure this won't happen... the whole point of kudosu stars is that you can do anything you want with them, whether it is for your own maps or other people's. After all, you earned them fair and square. It's a right you've earned to put 500+ stars on a single map if you want, after all, you spend 500 kudosu.

Anyway, no, I didn't read the whole thread, I'm just putting that out there. Regarding speedranks, even though I haven't modded in some time, I do give priority to old bubbles before anything, since it's just painful that some maps have been waiting for so long while others get in and out fast. It's just that I haven't had time to mod recently.
I don't think I can be blamed for speedranking anyway, as my last ranked map was some months ago, and the map before that was in January of this year. I know nobody's blaming me, just wanted to put that out there.

tl;dr for this thread: Many BATs are ignoring the SP system and paying a lot of attention to certain mappers, without concern for the SP system. This causes pre-mature maps to be ranked more often and more maps become unranked because of the problems. Another issue with ignoring the SP system is that quality maps unfairly remain in the pending section.

There are many different ways to fix the issue, but no matter what system goes in place, it won't do anything because the same BATs will ignore the system the same way as they ignore the current system. The BATs who are "speedranking" need a change in behavior, and the only person who is able to force a change (peppy) has almost ignored the problem entirely, refusing to do anything about it.

Gens wrote:

Err, you mean... when it's only "rankable", help the mapper get things right, right? It's no good if we ignore a map just like that. Either way, I think every map should be treated the same... as in, we should always try our best.

Well, yeah, my sentence kind of sucked. I was implying for when a XAT wants to bubble/rank, I should have put more emphasis on "at least don't bubble/rank it outright."
Every map deserves the same kind of attention, but not all of them deserve to be ranked in equal time. Like I said, good over rankable and whatnot.

Gens wrote:

I'm sure most, if not all, XATs are willing to help. The mappers are the ones who don't want to be helped sometimes ("it's my style leave it alone I don't want to change it"), and that stops the ranking process too.

I've addressed this kind of behavior before in the thread, but I might as well repeat my opinion on the matter: if people don't want the help, don't help them. And leave the map unattended and it will unevitably hit the graveyard eventually. Bad behaviors when it comes to maps is unacceptable. Thankfully, this is rare, at least to my knowledge.

Gens wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Limit the maximum Stars giveable by the same user to the same map.
It'll be better if the mapper itself will start spending more for other maps than his, And about 3-4 Star per map should be good, I really hate seeing Star walls, with almost ALL of them gaved by the same people.

I'm sure this won't happen... the whole point of kudosu stars is that you can do anything you want with them, whether it is for your own maps or other people's. After all, you earned them fair and square. It's a right you've earned to put 500+ stars on a single map if you want, after all, you spend 500 kudosu.

After the remotion of "Free Stars"( the stars that could have been gaved just by posting ), Kudosu Stars became important.
And if the mapper itself can call himself "modder", he should at least reward good maps, not just shoot all the kudosu stars for his maps.
The same for other modders, a map that was modded by two persons can be "prioritized" more than a good maps that has been modded by many peoples just for this stupid flaw.

I'm sure most, if not all, XATs are willing to help. The mappers are the ones who don't want to be helped sometimes ("it's my style leave it alone I don't want to change it"), and that stops the ranking process too.
This is regarding the actual modding process, of course.

It's just bad to point things which only problem is being new. And that's what most mappers will refuse to even listen. It's bad pointing and insisting in things that only you think are bad, really, and that's another thing mappers will refuse.

Mithost wrote:

tl;dr for this thread: Many BATs are ignoring the SP system and paying a lot of attention to certain mappers, without concern for the SP system.

Out of curiosity. Can you name them please? Or atleast give us a number.

I'm not exactly shure what BATs are the main offenders, but I know that a large amount of BATs are not to blame. Plus I don't think 10+ BATs are going to be speedranking.

The best solution I can think of is to mod by SP, like I already do myself.

Checking bubbled maps from the 1st page only is the best choice probably BATs could do, while MATs should focus on bubbling maps with at least +20 of priority.

Anyway, regarding my maps, if they got ranked in a short time, it's because they got lot of mods in a really short time and because they always been on top priority on the first page of bubbles, that's why other BATs always came there to check them, even when I didn't asked them.

So yeah, stop poiting fingers out to me and hate, because it's not my fault here.

I always try to help all the mappers here with my best, and my 898 ranked maps as a BAT shows that clearly.

That said, these are my thoughts. Hope you won't flame again, I'm trying to find a solution to this as well.

Gens wrote:

I'm sure most, if not all, XATs are willing to help. The mappers are the ones who don't want to be helped sometimes ("it's my style leave it alone I don't want to change it"), and that stops the ranking process too.

I tried and I'm still trying to get my first ranked map, but what I supposed to do when I get a mod with this sentence?
"That's all ~ Map still need more work ~" I got this from a MAT, when I asked for a mod. The mod is quite short so I don't even know why this sentence is in the end. I answered to everything and changed everything, oh and I didn't understand one thing but that certain MAT is just ignored it.

In short: What peoples supposed to do, when they got this kind of mods after they asked for it? I'm trying to flow with the current ranking system, but to be honest I'm already tired to ask a MAT to mod my map and be ignored and I think many mappers feel the same out there.

EDIT: since I didn't see the last page

Andrea wrote:

So yeah, stop poiting fingers out to me and hate, because it's not my fault here.

The one who made mistakes is the one who ranked them. Your maps are good, that is nice, but why "someone" ignore issues when he/she rank it?
This thing is easily predictable with a secondary check from someone else too. Just as this pointed out many more before.

Andrea wrote:

The best solution I can think of is to mod by SP, like I already do myself.

Checking bubbled maps from the 1st page only is the best choice probably BATs could do, while MATs should focus on bubbling maps with at least +20 of priority.

More or less this, but do check how many mods the map has gotten and not just how high the sp is.

Andrea wrote:

I always try to help all the mappers here with my best, and my 898 ranked maps as a BAT shows that clearly.

I don't think people are doubting this tbh.

Andrea wrote:

Anyway, regarding my maps, if they got ranked in a short time, it's because they got lot of mods in a really short time and because they always been on top priority on the first page of bubbles, that's why other BATs always came there to check them, even when I didn't asked them.

So yeah, stop poiting fingers out to me and hate, because it's not my fault here.

if so many of them have been getting unranked lately, there is a problem. I'd suggest getting mods at a slower rate (that means stop mod4mod, I think that's something XATs shouldn't be doing), and don't shoot any star towards your own maps so that they get high priority slower? If you're willing to do these sacrifices, I'm sure the better part of us will trust you in that you are trying to help.

And if you want people to stop flaming you then stop making unnecessary remarks here and there because people will call you out and they'll be in their own damn right to do so.

But that's literally punishing Andrea for something that isn't necessarily his fault.

Kurokami wrote:

I tried and I'm still trying to get my first ranked map, but what I supposed to do when I get a mod with this sentence?
"That's all ~ Map still need more work ~" I got this from a MAT, when I asked for a mod. The mod is quite short so I don't even know why this sentence is in the end. I answered to everything and changed everything, oh and I didn't understand one thing but that certain MAT is just ignored it.

In short: What peoples supposed to do, when they got this kind of mods after they asked for it? I'm trying to flow with the current ranking system, but to be honest I'm already tired to ask a MAT to mod my map and be ignored and I think many mappers feel the same out there.

This means your map has so many things to be improved. It's hard to get what makes your map to be same quality as ranked map in these day.
If you can pass this wall, you will be able to get bubble in your further maps so easily.

For the solution here : try to improve your map by yourself is the best way when you encounter with this kind of modding.

He's still the source of the problem, regardless of if he's guilty or not. We can't just tell XATs "please stop being so hasty with Andrea's maps" can we? Sounds a bit of a weird thing to say IMO

I really don't see it as a punishment myself. We regular users usually have a lot more trouble gathering mods than XATs because they're voraciously sought after for their mods (and eventual bubbles and whatnot). Is really waiting longer, which leads eventually to a better ranked map in the end, that much of a pain?

Kurokami wrote:

Gens wrote:

I'm sure most, if not all, XATs are willing to help. The mappers are the ones who don't want to be helped sometimes ("it's my style leave it alone I don't want to change it"), and that stops the ranking process too.

I tried and I'm still trying to get my first ranked map, but what I supposed to do when I get a mod with this sentence?
"That's all ~ Map still need more work ~" I got this from a MAT, when I asked for a mod. The mod is quite short so I don't even know why this sentence is in the end. I answered to everything and changed everything, oh and I didn't understand one thing but that certain MAT is just ignored it.

That... makes me want to punch something. If it were me I wouldn't have stopped there; whenever I see a bad map, it's not good enough for me to say "needs more mod", hell, I'll be the one to mod it more until the end. I'm willing to write huge walls of text, so you can learn what's wrong and how to fix it, in a detailed manner. After all, I didn't get on the BAT just to do cheap mods.
I see not everyone in the staff has the same mentality as me, though... I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just saying. I mean, sometimes it's okay to leave it up to other modders, but if the map's been modded plenty already and there isn't much change, I see no other option than to break the beatmap down in bits.

Well, in any case... that's the reason I mod more rarely now; it takes much more time to write all of this. orz.

Frostmourne wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

I tried and I'm still trying to get my first ranked map, but what I supposed to do when I get a mod with this sentence?
"That's all ~ Map still need more work ~" I got this from a MAT, when I asked for a mod. The mod is quite short so I don't even know why this sentence is in the end. I answered to everything and changed everything, oh and I didn't understand one thing but that certain MAT is just ignored it.

In short: What peoples supposed to do, when they got this kind of mods after they asked for it? I'm trying to flow with the current ranking system, but to be honest I'm already tired to ask a MAT to mod my map and be ignored and I think many mappers feel the same out there.

This means your map has so many things to be improved. It's hard to get what makes your map to be same quality as ranked map in these day.
If you can pass this wall, you will be able to get bubble in your further maps so easily.

For the solution here : try to improve your map by yourself is the best way when you encounter with this kind of modding.

He wasn't reffering to that (I think). He knows what that sentence means.. I guess he's saying that it's senseless to say "map still need more work" when the MAT only pointed out a couple of things. If the map needs more work, the MAT that modded his map should have written more stuff to help him in improving his map (if he says it needs more work and help..), but he didn't. If the mod is short, why did the MAT pointed out so few things? It doesn't make sense.
I think MATs "aim" is helping mappers to improve their maps by modding them.. not just bubbling good maps around. It's exactly what Gens said. A MAT/BAT should be willing to write huge wall of text if it is necessary to help the mapper to improve his map and to help him in the ranking process.

i just had a fleeting thought - if andrea has ranked more than 900 maps and has speedranked say 20 or 30 maps, he still hasn't speedranked a statistically significant portion of his total ranking count -- meaning that all this babble about speedranking is pretty much a storm in a teacup.

i might borrow some db time in the next few days and work out a query to determine who in the BAT is responsible for the statistically highest proportion of speedranks vs normal ranks.

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!

Kei wrote:

He wasn't reffering to that (I think). He knows what that sentence means.. I guess he's saying that it's senseless to say "map still need more work" when the MAT only pointed out a couple of things. If the map needs more work, the MAT that modded his map should have written more stuff to help him in improving his map (if he says it needs more work and help..), but he didn't. If the mod is short, why did the MAT pointed out so few things? It doesn't make sense.

This is what I wanted to say with that.

Frostmurne wrote:

For the solution here : try to improve your map by yourself is the best way when you encounter with this kind of modding.

I'm not a pro mapper to do this after 12 page with mods. Maybe for you it is possible, but not for me. I need advice, I need things to be pointed out. Which will be very useful in my future mapping.

Gens wrote:

That... makes me want to punch something. If it were me I wouldn't have stopped there; whenever I see a bad map, it's not good enough for me to say "needs more mod", hell, I'll be the one to mod it more until the end. I'm willing to write huge walls of text, so you can learn what's wrong and how to fix it, in a detailed manner. After all, I didn't get on the BAT just to do cheap mods.

I wanted to see this when I asked a MAT to mod my map but the mod is just pointed out a few staff. Which means, at least to me, my map isn't that bad. When I got this, my map is already got 10 pages of mods and it is already much better than the first sh*t version. So my map was improved so much thanks to the modders, and I hoped the same from MAT too, but .... I got almost nothing.

Anyways, I don't want to point fingers, I just want to see a better mod from a XAT member.

@Ephemeral
The problem with the speedranks if the map gets de-rank after it. This isn't depends on the mapper. So even if it looks like it, the quilty isn't Andrea. This is already pointed out a few times, but...

Kurokami wrote:

Frostmourne wrote:

For the solution here : try to improve your map by yourself is the best way when you encounter with this kind of modding.

I'm not a pro mapper to do this after 12 page with mods. Maybe for you it is possible, but not for me. I need advice, I need things to be pointed out. Which will be very useful in my future mapping.

nah, i'm sorry for that Kurokami. I honestly say that for the first map is really really extremely hard to get star mark icon before bubble. I faced the stuff like this from Suzully and wmfchris 8 months ago in My map so. t/65919/start=30
But have to say that my case, Suzully and wmfchris explained clearly that why my map was bad.

Please don't give up.. That is all i want you to do

First rank always the threshold for a new mapper. Do not give up, i can say nearly all mappers had faced to that. Some guys crossed that, more failed. Hopes you won't be one the those failed :>

Frostmourne wrote:

nah, i'm sorry for that Kurokami. I honestly say that for the first map is really really extremely hard to get star mark icon before bubble. I faced the stuff like this from Suzully and wmfchris 8 months ago in My map so. t/65919/start=30
But have to say that my case, Suzully and wmfchris explained clearly that why my map was bad.

Please don't give up.. That is all i want you to do

Scorpiour wrote:

First rank always the threshold for a new mapper. Do not give up, i can say nearly all mappers had faced to that. Some guys crossed that, more failed. Hopes you won't be one the those failed :>

I know its hard to get the first map ranked and I always knew, but I tried. osu! is lack this song so I mapped it. I recently asked TVO to mod it and he said it is looking good to him even tho its hard to map. I don't want to trow more stars to it, since I'm using them to someone else's map which is deserve it. I'm not the same as the guy who thrown many stars for his own map and after that he ignored almost all mod.
I'm unable to do more about this mapset so I leave it as it is. Ordinary modders are already unable to anything with it after all. I will just resurrect it, nothing more.
I mapped my "second" map and asked Andrea for a testplay. He said its looking good to him and this (even if its a lie), coming from my favorite mapper is enough to my to continue as a mapper. So I will never give up, but mods like those makes me rage.

Anyways, I think enough of this off-topic conversation. This topic is not about me or my maps, its about speedranks and the issues with it.

PS: @Frostmurne
That song is one of my favorite. :3

Ephemeral wrote:

i might borrow some db time in the next few days and work out a query to determine who in the BAT is responsible for the statistically highest proportion of speedranks vs normal ranks.

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!

I don't think pointing fingers to the BAT that speedranked maps the most really is the way to go. Actually, I'm pretty sure many BATs if not all of them have speedranked maps before. I'd rather check if said maps are fun to play, because some speedranks can be deserved. I think we all point fingers at Andrea because we're like "This guy has speedranked his maps for several years now and is still doing it, except they're getting unranked, which is a problem". You'd need to check through every single speedranked map, not just Andrea's. I believe it's just a matter of being more careful when modding, bubbling and whatnot in the XAT. Because we regular users are very unforgiving and are very likely to rage at every little mistake these guys make.

Andrea's post makes sense. If XATs modded only the first page of SP, there would be no less perfectly good maps that have to wait so long for ranking. As the high SP maps start to get more rare due to them all being ranked, less SP will be needed for mappers to hit the front page, where they can get the XAT attention their map needs.

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!

I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC
2) ztrot
3) James
4) DJPop

Ephemeral wrote:

if andrea has ranked more than 900 maps and has speedranked say 20 or 30 maps

I think the issue is the maps of his that have been speedranked, not the maps that he has speedranked (if any), the number you pointed out is the ammount of maps that Andrea has ranked, not the ammount of ranked maps that he has, also i'm pretty sure about more than half of his maps have been "speedranked", then again, as said before, this is an issue with the BATs that rank them, not with Andrea.

It's not exactly on topic but I found this while looking around the ranking criteria...

The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty (based on how the map feels): this is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love. It's really hard to define how a specific spread could work in a specific song beforehand, but here's a list of things to consider: the difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order and/or with a reasonable gap between them; there should be at least one difficulty around ~2.5/3 star difficulty level; if your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be insane (this basically means that it's highly recommended to have 3 difficulties unless the song itself doesn't allow much variety); if your mapset has three difficulties, one of them should be about ~2.5/3 star difficulty level, and the second should not be Insane; if your map has four or more difficulties, at least two should be something other than Insane.

I don't want to pick on andrea or anything, I know many other mappers have broken this too.

Insane =/= hard?

ouranhshc wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!

I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC
2) ztrot
3) James
4) DJPop

Are you having a Steffi Graf?

ouranhshc wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!

I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC

Main offenders of great mapping, yeah.

itt ouran is a black natteke

This is off-topic. Stop now.

Marcin and Mithost: many people use "Hard" as a replacement for Insanes nowadays, and no one gives a shit about it.