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OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I talked yesterday to someone who had a really good opinion about those rules.
And one big importand topic was how they are written down. Too much informations and things which dosen't need to be mentioned in rules are written down as ziin said before, too. And I agreed with it, so I made a draft for now to show it to you guys.

Reason is pretty easy. Obviously things dosen't need to be mentioned, this would be more like an mapping guide then. Also the obviously things can be mentioned as mods in the maps itself. Tell me if something is still too long or you have an opinion about this, please.

Here you have the short version of he rules for now:

SPOILER
Taiko Rankability Rules and Guidelines (Short and clear version)

Rules - You may not break these ever

  1. Diff. Name
    Discourage diff. names are not allowed.
  1. Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
    Overall Difficulty and HP Drain Rate: 4~7
    OD and HP in marathon-kind maps: 1~4
    (Circle Size and Aproach Rate have no effect in Taiko)
  1. Countdown
    Don't use countdown on a taiko specific map. If the notes start too quickly, add a lead-in time.
  1. Finish Notes
    Not allowed to use at the beginning or in the middle of a stream.
    End of stream is allowed in following cases: xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
  1. Kiai Time
    Use the kiai time just in the choruses of a song. Do not use short "flashes" of kiai like you might use in an osu! standard map.
  1. Rest Moments
    Every specific Taiko diff. need to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.
  1. Custom Hitbursts
    It is not allowed to assign custom hitbursts to a taiko map.

Guidelines - Under special circumstances these may be broken

  1. Slider Velocity
    The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 must be used.
  1. Note Streams
    For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the musik while 1/8 is generaly forbidden.
    Information: Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
    Below is a visual example of 4 notes in a 1/6 under 1.4 slider velocity:
  1. BPM Changes
    Unnecessary BPM changes are not allowed unless the song has a relatively low BPM.
    Overlapping notes are not allowed, too, unless the song has a suitable changing BPM part for this with no complex streams.
    When changing BPM it is advisable to use the method or fixing it with useing a series of slowing slider velocity sections:


    Note in the example above that multiple slider velocities are used to show a visual slowdown of notes, without the 0.5 section being "overlapped" by the final note preceding it.
  1. Drumrolls(Sliders)
    Use sparingly within a map and keep a 1/2 beat space between them and any other object.
    Try not to put sliders one after each other - 2 or 3 in a row may be acceptable in some cases.
    Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower since it gives 1/8 rills, and probably most songs dosen't contain 1/8 beats.
    Not suggested to use them in quite sections because slider = 1/4 streams
  1. Spinner
    Leave at least a 1/2 beat between a note and a spinner. Using them on 1/4, 1/6 or 1/8 streams may be okay.
    Short spinners are not recommended because it's loud and distracts players.
  1. Breaks
    Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
  1. Custom Hitsounds and Volume
    Don't use them in taiko specific maps. Keep volume at a consistent level (e.g. 80%) in keeping with the song throughout all timing sections, with the beat still somewhat audible.
    The generel audio use is be ,,Normal".

Recommendations - These are recommended but not fully necessary

  1. Custom combo colours
    Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overridden in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
  1. Reasonable hitobject-placement
    Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I think the short version is clear and good enough to be handed in as 1.0 version.
From now on I suggest to let this rules live and develop on its own (like they do in standard mode)

If it turns out that there are apparent needs for adjustments, they can be assigned later on.
Anything else that could be disturbing in a song is song-specified in most cases and don't need to be generalized in a rule or guideline.

This rules shouldn't replace the modding process, so with THIS we have some compendium of what is a "no-go" EVERYWHERE. When something on a specific taiko map turns out to be 'eww' even if it's not forbidden, mod it out of it.
Same method gets used in standard mode. So we can do the same.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
^ Agree.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
OD/HP of marathon diffs: 1~4
=>

HP of marathon diffs: 1~5 depends on length and # of notes in the song.
You didn't add "Tick rate 3 for 1/3 songs only" as well.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
After revising the whole short edition with wmfchris once again, I've shortened and focused the rules once more. Also I moved some guidelines to recommendations, shortened stuff and moved rules within guidelines to rules and such stuff. Awaiting your everyone's approval

Taiko Mapping Rules and Guidelines

Rules - You may not break these ever

  1. Difficulty names
    Difficulty names must be taiko specific, but don't need to contain it's difficulty rating self (e.g. Taiko, Taiko Oni, Taiko Muzukashii). Guest difficulties may contain the mapper's name.
  1. Difficulty settings and song setup
    Overall difficulty and HP drain rate should be between 4~7.
    Exception: Maps exceeding usual draining time should have a life drain between 1~4 depending on length and numbers of notes
  1. Countdown
    Don't use countdown. If the notes start too quickly, add a lead-in time.
  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
    At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
    xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
  1. Kiai Time
    Only use the kiai time in the chorus of a song. Do not use short kiai "flashes".
  1. Rest moments
    Every difficulty needs to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.
  1. Overlapping notes
    Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.

Guidelines - Under special circumstances these may be broken
  1. Slider Velocity
    The Slider Velocity should be 1.40 or 1.60.
  1. Streams
    For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the music.
    Avoid using 1/8 streams by any circumstance.
  1. Drumrolls(Sliders)
    Use sparingly within a map and keep a 1/2 beat space between them and any other object.
    Try not to put sliders one after each other.
    Avoid using sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower.
    Use a tick rate of 3 if the song self is snapped on 1/3.
  1. Spinner
    Leave at least a 1/2 beat between a note and a spinner. Using them on streams may be okay.
    Short spinners are not recommended.
  1. Breaks
    All break sections should be artificially removed from the .osu file.
  1. Custom Hitsound Volume
    Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
    Use the "Normal" audio sample set.

Recommendations - These are recommended but not fully necessary

  1. Custom combo colours
    Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overwritten in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
  1. Reasonable hitobject-placement
    Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
    PICTURE
  1. Custom 1/3 and 1/6 streams Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
    Below is a visual example of 4 notes in a 1/6 under 1.4 slider velocity:
Last edited by Loctav , edited 1 time in total.
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]
I still don't think xxxxxxxxO should be specially permitted
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
What makes it different from xxxxooooX ?
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
well, why not xxxxxxxxX ? (theoretically easier than the xO type)
you could permit Oxxx / Xooo (as long it play much much much good and direct, ) they could "have sense" but being difficult to play if not intuitive, you should pretty much say to try to use it if their using have sense )
The xoxoxoxoX could be allowed. But yeah, if people use them they should pretty much have sense.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
No it's not easier, because you'd have to press the same key twice in a row in a stream.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We discussed the variations of finish streams at the end/beginning/inbetween several times and we came to the conclusion, that the finish streams should only be allowed at this kind of patterns.
We cleary deny same coloured finishes, because you have to play (for me as example) sdsdsd(sd) - (or for default settings: djdjdjdj(DJ))
Try to imagine that you stream on standard with two keys and then have to hit the last note with both keys.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The thing with different colored finishes is that you have to hit them with different keys than you were streaming with, so they are easier to hit.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Loctav said everything.
This has been dicussed many times and ,,xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX" is the absolut final decision.
No ...xoxO or anything else.

Also who don't like them, don't need to map them. Everything is moding based.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

MMzz wrote:

I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
We don't need to add to the rules that hitobjects need to fit the music. (which also means that finishers should only be placed where it fits)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Different versions has been posted into the first post.
Taiko_BG case will be also added to Recommendation.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
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Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Probably should, albeit authentic TnT rarely ever goes over 2 mins (if ever) but we have a lot of ranked long Taiko maps so i guess we could just put the same limit for Taiko maps.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
There are some cases though with 4:30+ minute songs.
They are mapped with breaks such that the standard difficulties are under 4:30 min draining time.

If there is a Taiko, then the mapset would have to be approved just for the Taiko diff due to Taiko not having breaks.
Perhaps some leeway should be allowed for cases like this?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Since Taiko does not really affects whether the mapset is approved or ranked, Currently it depends on draining time of standard maps.
(But if we have to make the limitation for Taiko maps, limit of draining time should be longer than 4:30, I think. Yeah. We don't have many breaks in our maps.)

And I'd rather say avoid using breaks unless the song is really long or mood of the part of the song is suit well with no notes. I don't like disallowing something, usually.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Set it to 5 minutes or the same total length of the corresponding standard diffs.
Yes, we don't use breaks as far as possible, but they are not required, since we don't need to rearrange ourselves like in standard (where the pen starts to glide out of the hand or the desk starts to end while playing with mouse)
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
I guess so. The only problem is like in solo diffs 4:30 of draining time + breaks may last like 5 minutes, while taiko diff may fill up those breaks making the draining time exceeds 4:30.

In this sense I'll suggest 5:00 as the max draining time (well, Taiko mode has no "draining" lol)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
How about leaving it how it is? Since this wasn't never a problem or issue before.
Rei Hakurei
1,983 posts
Joined February 2011
Rei Hakurei
hmmm
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
it means finish note allowed in short stream like oX or ooX as long the finish note alternates with the previous note ?

also how long the longest stream are allowed in taiko?

thanks ^^
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I would not suggest using finishes in triplets.
Also there is no limit to stream length, but your map needs this resting moments - regardless of this, streams need to fit the song and only-stream maps are stupid in most cases and modders will request modifications like splitting it up.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Edit: One of the known bugs appeard in the diff.. All timelines are gone, this will be fix'd soon as possible.
I have some news for you guys:

I talked to mm201 for permission to upload and rank on the second osu server some maps which are related to the rule discussion to see how people react to some cases like for example "1/4 finish streams".
Here you can find the map: http://ha.ppy.sh/s/180
To have acess on the server, you need to open ,,osume.exe" and tick ,,use test build".
Note that just people with supporter tag are able to start it.

Test the maps and give us your opinion about the severel cases(if you have some).

Information about the maps and what they contain:
Taiko Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, ooX, spinners after stream, spinner/slider two times in a row, SV changes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Inner Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Ura Oni: Extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, high OD and HP

Note: Futsuu, Kantan and Muzukashii included to have a full Taiko no Tatsujin map-set.
matthewhln
247 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
OK, Chris is too lazy, so I rather paste my opinion here myself

Taiko diff name
I think "Taiko" must included in the difficult name to identify...

Some name like "Jubiko" is kind of confusing, that some people may not know that it is a combined name (taiko and jubeat)
which may cause them selecting the wrong difficulty (most likely the solo players)

But something like "Taikosaki" or "Taiko extra" can state very clearly it is a taiko difficult.

However, to keep mapper creative on the map name, this should better be placed in Guidelines instead of Rules, and judge by the modder and the mapper of that map


Deleting StoryBoard?
I think it is not nessasary to add this rule/guideline

Since it will need the coorperation between the mapper and the taiko guest mapper

Also the rules/guidelines are specify on the behavior of taiko mapper, it should not give the limit to the original mapper.
(There is no this kind of rule/guideline yet)


1/4 streams' big circle placement
I think there should be none of exception because of pattern (I don't oppose exception on BPM)

As firce said (lazy chris have not put it here yet),
it may not be fair to some player in their style (between using 2 fingers and 4 fingers)
for 2 fingers player, they may be harder the hit the big circle at the last note in "xxxxxxxxO" than 4 fingers player

Also, as Chris said,
「Same side should not be continuously hit in 1/4 stream」(he state that in Chinese ver post)
if Same side have been continuously hit in 1/4 stream, then it will be 1/8 (1/4 with single hand = 1/8 with both hands)

so the exception of "xxxxxxxxO" is not reasonable enough.
However, I will not exclude the possibility of making it into the guideline although it may not be the best way
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Sorry but - I didn't understand what I just read.
My apologizes but I don't get your stuff in any single way.
I guess I have to ask Wmf on my own >_>
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I understand your points matthe. @Loctav you can ask me. lol

diff names
Hey, the rules has been also changed in meaning, that's not good. I support what you said matthe since that was what I wrote down before and will also look through all rules to avoid such cases again.
(Yes, I didn't had a brief look through it after chris and loctav changed it for better understanding, sorry)

1/4 finishes
As I said before, ooooooooO is not allowed and I will also not change the rule anymore since this has been discussed now many years.
First reason not to take it was ,,it's not authentic", then the reason was ,,unplayable".
Both cases dosen't fit anymore nowadays, but the rules has been still made by considering this.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
My explaination is like
Instead of "you hit with the same finger consecutively" we could consider the drums in which "the same side of the drum is hit consecutively": the case "hit with the same finger/hand but different side of instrument" is common in sth like drum set while "hitting the same side of the instrument consecutively" is a bit odd.
Cristian
1,945 posts
Joined November 2009
Cristian
oh, god so many information makes my mind blow out of it, im gona try to keep it on it <_<
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
^@ read the OP, especially the latest version and state your opinion. Right now, they discuss about big-notes at stream ends. If you need any assistance catching up in this discussion, ask Onosaki, me or wmf ingame (or any discussion participant of your trust)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
No ,,oO".
Reason was given.
mancuso_JM_
osu! Alumni
4,615 posts
Joined October 2010
mancuso_JM_
If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that :P
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
I know, cause sometimes even I thought that kind of thing would be suitable for the music, but we should know that this isn't an art.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
This is a taiko drum.
Not a drum kit.


Carry-on
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

mancusojuanmattos wrote:

If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that :P

They 'MAY contain'. There is no NEED. Pretty clear for me.
XK2238
2,067 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238
I think finishes in streams which are still do-able (in this case, ..ooX and ...xxO is the easiest imo) is okay. You get full points just by pressing both sides without having to get the thick yellow border mark though. >_>
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

MMzz wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
This is a taiko drum.
Not a drum kit.


Carry-on
same.
Real Taiko drummers can really do those pattern... and a game's map not an art?
Restrict them to Harder{Harder[Harder(Harder)]} difficulties?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
You can go ahead and make a map with a 1/4 finisher, but it won't get ranked.
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.

CARRY-ON
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Finishers in streams :

ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.

At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)

At 120-140... Avoid.

Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.


Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

_Gezo_ wrote:

Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

wmfchris wrote:

_Gezo_ wrote:

Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.
It was about ticks, but yeah that thing might be calculated with bounds (500 - 1000 BPM 1/1 for ticks ?)
I saw that while playing a slow map... Forgot which one tho. orz.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
The only valid points are that they don't play well and they are hard to read due to taiko's note system (you don't read individual notes, you read the patterns, which is why a constant stream of notes in taiko is a bad thing).

if anything drums are easier than keyboard.

wmfchris wrote:

Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.
dubstep can be considered 70 bpm, and at that bpm there would be a lot of 1/8. Of course that would mean that 1/4 at 140 BPM would fit equally.

This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.

Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
(Tick rates - drumroll tick rate are gameplay stuffs and is clearly written that it will not be changed in this post if I remmber it correctly.)

Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.

For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
[04.28., 10:42] ,,BPM Changes" section has been added into Guidelines again - OnosakiHito
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
Ver. 1.0.3 avaible.

Finish-notes
There will be no other permissions for now as the one we have allready in the rules.
ooooxxxxO <- This notes can be played and dosen't interupt player to fc a map at all. This has just something to with experience, not unplaybility. It is playable and can be even played on drum. ooooooooO is barely playable, that's why it is not permitted.

Also having ooX is not recommendet at all because this can be quickly abused by some mappers. We can mod it away, but sometimes it will happen that some of these maps would be accidentally ranked.
And don't forget: It was allready hard enough to get the agreement of the community to use finishes on 9-plet long streams, so we don't need to force our luck too much to have more exeptions.

BPM Changes / Overlaping notes
This guideline/rule is still not clear enough, so I will rewrite it when I have time.
wmf's and Loctav's description has been deleted for now. That what they wrote down into the Rules:
Overlapping notes
Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.

I'm agains that for now. I don't say this should be fully permited, but there should be some gray-zones like when the song has a fitting part for this.
I will give two examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35211 - [Taiko Oni] @ 02:20:051 - This will be hard to fc on the first try, but after some it is totally possible and playable.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/144429 - [Taikosaki] @ 02:00:370 - You can see the slider is overlaps the big KAT, but since it is not a small note, you can see when you need to hit it.

I think it is clear enough what I want to show and say with those examples.
Discuss.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
I'll say this loud and clear: I wholeheartedly disapprove of the use of finishes on 1/4 (and even 1/3) streams whatever the reason may be. It never feels good to play.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
- we'll still need a top limit for the playing time for ranked diff.
- I'm firm on the overlapped issue because all we are talking about is the readability in the first sight. Notes are supposed to be clearly shown at all time.
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
About finishers, I will say it once and for all : DON'T SPAM THEM. It confuses the player and play very terrible (I played one ranked map spamming finishers, it's almost unreadable.)
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun

_Gezo_ wrote:

About finishers on 1/4, I will say it once and for all : DON'T SPAM USE THEM.
Fix'd
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
ooO=ooX
they have the same problems associated with them and should just be banned on all BPMs. There are enough taiko players who don't like finishes. But I think those taiko players are being stupid. If the map has a slow BPM the finishes can be weeded out in the modding process if need be, and the exception will be made there.
HashishKabob
254 posts
Joined September 2011
HashishKabob
I think finishes are okay for 1/3, so long as it isn't like dD or kK, but dK and kD play smoothly for me and never caused issues.
Personally I love finishes, I just wish they didn't give you double points because you only get them if you hit both notes exactly at the same time.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
    At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
    xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

OnosakiHito wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
    At the end, finish streams may be allowed under following pattern constellations:
    xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
Small fix. You missed a word here :D

People may badly hit them (like a BIIIG DESYNC) :V

I think we should ALSO think about 1/1 streaming before saying if that kind of stream should or should not be banned from ranking.

I can hit ooooooooO up to 230 1/4 BPM (Which is 920 1/1) but some players can't play these easily.

As long as it's not overused (Climax stuff) I'd say yes, if the song is not too fast (Max. 900 1/1 streams) and if the song is faster than 225 BPM (rare cases tho), at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note, because fingers may fail to hit the finisher properly.

I'd ban finishers on 1/3 divisors tho (Not 1/3 themselves)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

1/3 is fine. It doesn't cover the previous note like 1/4 does.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

_Gezo_ wrote:

at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note
I agree with this idea, and in the musical perspective that's reasonable, too.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@Gezo: We could say that it's not allowed to use it in really fast BPMs and etc.m but it's not needed here. This can be modded away by people. We also don't want to see that people spam them.
I guess we should add one more time that they may use 1/4 finishes just if there is a clearly hearable sound for this.
Edit:
  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
    At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it under following pattern constellations:
    xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX

@chris: Maybe I misunderstand it right now, but with "musical" you mean there is rarely for example ooooooooX ? Because this wouldn't be right then since my genres I map have many of those cases.

Hey, we have now a japanese translation, too. Thank's to Suzully!
[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito

[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - t/82259 - arien666

=================== Check the changes ====================
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 3 times in total.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

OnosakiHito wrote:

한국어(korean) - XXX - ???
My bad, but I've been really busy..... Ok I admit, I'm lazy. I'll do that when I have time but I don't care if you get someone before I finish it. (Hmm, should I start to poke someone else?)

EDIT:
and 1/3 finish is fine.

EDIT2:
arken might do that.
arien666
6,301 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
t/82259



done for v1.03 Korean
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Quite fast, huh? Good job anyway, arken.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
당신을 감사하십시오! That was really fast.
Got now 3 translations from 3 MAT's. lol
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
And suddenly the overlap rule is a rule-containg guideline again. Whyever. Was this reverse step discussed? I doubt that. Geeez.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
arken1015 arien666

:?
arken666
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
In BPM change section, there is an example how we can avoid overlapping notes when dropping speed of notes. Yeah I mean lowering note speed gradually by setting HS one by one. (I hope you get it...) Well personally I don't like it but it can be considered as a mapping technique. But I want to quote that, please avoid putting complex streams using that technique. This technique may looks good, but not so great to reading notes.

----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
About the drumroll in a 1/3 song :

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.

Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)

First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)

Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.

Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.

With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)

You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

lepidopodus wrote:

In BPM change section......
I do agree.

----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
I would like to do so, but since I have exams in one week I need to wait for now.
Yes, we will be still flexbile and the rules are going to be changeable even on approved status. But maybe that's something I need to talk to the BAT's and peppy soon.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
Hi I'd like to bring up my concerns to this rule
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.

Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Well, we agree with the hitbursts part, that's just obvious. But why are we against custom hitsounds? Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options. In certain Taiko games there are missions where you have to use a specific hitsound set to pass a map. Is it not enough that dons should just generally be a lower tone than kats, which should have a higher tone?

For example, what is so bad about setting a custom hitsound set of kick/snare when the song you are mapping to is a Rock/Metal song?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

those wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options.
Nuff said.
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@ztrot: What you mean is probably what those has mentioned? Because, the volumen I mentioned there has nothing to do with the custom-hitsounds. I will explain it it down below.
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.

In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137

Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

@ztrot: In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
Yes it can!

OnosakiHito wrote:

But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
I didn't get this part at all.

OnoaskiHito wrote:

Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
What actually makes sense IS decided by the community.
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.

And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
lepidopodus gaved many times examples where modding didn't helped at all. We don't need to start this discussion a third or 4th time.

Sakura wrote:

It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
That's why we had some problems with the osu! rules in the past and why it got into public dicussion, as I know. We don't need to make the same mistake in Taiko, that's why I, no... we consider the communitys voice. Especially because I'm not the Admin of Taiko, just a little announcer.

And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.

I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.

I'm done here.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
Tie this into mapping: "Oh, my map's good enough for bubble, so it's good enough for rank, and I'm going to reject suggestions that might make it better."
In general, that's like saying "Oh, something's good enough, I'm not going to even take a chance to try to make it better."
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
You guys dont use custom hitsounds, that's understandable, and you can continue doing so, just dont enforce it into other mappers

Also you guys got a taiko bat now *runs*
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Other mappers like osu mappers? Sakura, please, this isn't the osu mod at all.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^

Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Hitsounds in Taiko are THE central gameplay element, force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
matthewhln
247 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
if you use taiko skin in taiko mode, custom hitsound will not affect anything

Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)

So why is this bothering us?
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Why do you talk like you're a god? Also, don't talk like you know osu! or CtB, since all you seem to know is Taiko. I feel really insulted. We don't have to come together to give YOU a solution. The only thing I've done is generalize the problem. More people have more Taiko experience than you think.

In addition, you haven't come up with anything besides "I know the community best (i.e. I am the community) and the community says custom hitsound are bad because they are."
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Those-dono, if you are only reading Onosakis stuff and generally ignore the others with given arguments (see Luna, me and matthewhln), then your arguments are invalid.

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.

And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)

No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.

Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
And why is there a problem with that? You're having an approach object reach its receptor; it's just in a different shape. In addition, I seem to recall a beatmap with hearts instead of circles, and there was no problem playing that.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
I present to you the prepared piano.



Loctav wrote:

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far
Read p/1542056

Loctav wrote:

but this is Taiko
You're saying Taiko isn't in need of more creativity. Why do you say that?

Loctav wrote:

And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why.
You say that as if you actually know more about how it works than the rest of us. Regardless of whether I feel insulted or not, the only thing you have against this is "We know better than you and we speak for everyone." That seems a little outrageous, considering the fact that we're the ones giving suggestions on possible improvement and you feel you're somehow in a position to reject all of it without giving valid reason.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
@1 This is not the point of playing a Piano at all. You know what I meant with this.

@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"

@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.

@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.

I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
Just because you can't relate to playing a prepared piano, it doesn't mean that isn't the point of a piano. The piano has gone through hundreds and hundreds of years of changes and it just so happens that the post-modern era includes the prepared piano as an instrument.

I don't know how much you're really into music or rhythm, but whenever you hear a nice beat and you try to play along with it with whatever's on your desk, you would generally try to find a lower tone (e.g. tapping your textbook) to sound the bass (this is represented by don in Taiko), and a higher tone to sound, well, the higher tone. This is why music can be created with just a bass and snare drum, or the flipside of a bucket. As long as you have something to present both of the tones that don/kat currently represent, why is there a problem?

In addition, without any trying, there won't be any mess or improvement. But since we already know how to "fix" the "possible mess" (just revert to this rule), why can't we strive for improvement? Why has osu! allowed different hitsounds, if the default hitsounds were intended to be used since they are included?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Well, I know about how a rhythm is based and that there needs to be a bass tone and a higher tone. Whatsoever, osu!standard allowed custom hitsounds because they have almost no impact to the gameplay itself (okay, if you place them wrong, they may be VERY distracting, but they don't affect the gameplay SELF (clicking circles is regardless of what noise they make)

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

too high variety between the hitsoundings
I see I'm starting to get to you.
In osu! modding, there are many people to know which hitsounds fit the song and which do not. I'm sure Taiko mods are capable enough to know which hitsounds are appropriate and which ones are not. We just haven't had any opportunity to do it yet. I propose a change to this rule such that:

Custom hitbursts are not allowed. Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.

And if this goes awry, we'll revert. How's that?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Loctav wrote:

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, the notes will still look red and blue, i don't see why this is bothering you so much, plus it's not like we would add guitar hitsounds but more like other possible drum hitsounds, because there are drum sounds in the world that arent just the default taiko ones.

Also why do you think we would add more than 2 hitsounds to Taiko?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We never said something about "more than 2 hitsounds".
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.

It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Well, it's not that simple than you guys thought.

We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.

What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.

When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)

So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.

Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.

And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.

(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

those wrote:

Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.

And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)

Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future. Now you Taiko guys might know why I always so aggressive about these kind of matter.

EDIT:

Sakura wrote:

[Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, (...)
I explained why this is so irritating to Taiko players in previous post. I guess loctav already told similar thing.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

lepidopodus wrote:

those wrote:

Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.

And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)

Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future.
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,334 posts
Joined August 2009
aabc271
So, I'm here to post some of my thoughts about the custom taiko hitsounds ~

I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said

However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008

And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds

Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~

Any thoughts ? :3
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@those
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?

Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.

And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.

BTW the time isn't so good for me, lolol. Quite late in here.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

those wrote:

You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.

Just wait for the other people who could come into this thread.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
No. Start reading our posts and my sentences in #lounge. It's more than "its good enough". Thanks
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

those wrote:

The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
Being conservative isn't evil and changes does not lead to good future always. That is why we should cautious. If you want change something you need to state why changes should be done and check your idea get enough support, but generally you are just criticizing onosakihito's attitude.

This rule already have changes, yeah I'm telling you about big note in the end of stream. That changes have done cause we think there is a consensus, and we think it is ok and there is enough valid reasons. But about this, no consensus yet, not so solid reasons yet. Since enabling this possibly irritates lots of players we need to be more cautious but you are kinda... nagging.

EDIT:
I've said that I don't care if there is option like 'ignoring map-specific hitsound' or something like that, then I don't care. But enabling map-specific hitsound without giving a choice, then I think that is bad. Since we don't have any kind of system now, I oppose map-specific hitsound.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Well.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT

Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.

Sorry for my bad english.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.
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