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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)

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OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@HakuNoKaemi: That's something I have wanted to talk with mm201 about, since I discussed with some other known taiko mappers about this. Probably I will send him a PM soon, because he has much to do.

Edit: Got mm201 answer about this. Further informations are coming.

Edit2: @v: Oh I see now what HakuNoKaemi, ment. lol
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I'm not changing the slider judgement algorithm.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

OnosakiHito wrote:

@hknoboru: I played the original TnT and I play the TataCon on my PC. Personally I can hit them and other people would say the same or the controvers opinion.
So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.
just because you can hit them doesn't mean everyone can.

If we are looking at this realisticly a taiko drum should never be hit like that.

And besides, if you hit the middle of the drum it resembles a both side hit sometimes? I was told this by players before.

Odaril wrote:

I disagree with putting anything other than a k or d (small) after a stream (1/4 1/6 or 1/8). Anything like that looks ugly (ddddddddK looks unbelievably ugly, or sliders right after streams) and are usually unplayable (unless certain conditions...).
Are you saying what the notes look like counts towards how good/bad the map is?
lol
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Mh, I said that a bit awkward, huh?
I have the same thought as you MMzz, that's why I said to hknoboru ,,So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.".
This should mean like ,,My opinion, or other people opinions, what is possible with drum or not is pretty invalid, so let's move to the question..."

Yes, I thought about this, tbh, too. BUt never testet it. Will do that soon. lol


About 1/4 finishes, there will be probably no big changes anymore since this has been really often dicussed before and most people seams fine with them when they are just on easy streams (xxxxxxxxO/xxxxooooX)
I will make soon a more understandable rule about finishes.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

OnosakiHito wrote:

Mh, I said that a bit awkward, huh?
I have the same thought as you MMzz, that's why I said to hknoboru ,,So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.".
This should mean like ,,My opinion, or other people opinions, what is possible with drum or not is pretty invalid, so let's move to the question..."

Yes, I thought about this, tbh, too. BUt never testet it. Will do that soon. lol


About 1/4 finishes, there will be probably no big changes anymore since this has been really often dicussed before and most people seams fine with them when they are just on easy streams (xxxxxxxxO/xxxxooooX)
I will make soon a more understandable rule about finishes.
Well whenever I'm in the situation where oooooooO (or viseversa) appears I usually just cut the note before the finisher. ooooooo O
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
I agree with MMzz in the sense that this is a drum visualization.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Sure, I agree.
So or so at the moment finish streams like ooooooooO are not allowed.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I talked yesterday to someone who had a really good opinion about those rules.
And one big importand topic was how they are written down. Too much informations and things which dosen't need to be mentioned in rules are written down as ziin said before, too. And I agreed with it, so I made a draft for now to show it to you guys.

Reason is pretty easy. Obviously things dosen't need to be mentioned, this would be more like an mapping guide then. Also the obviously things can be mentioned as mods in the maps itself. Tell me if something is still too long or you have an opinion about this, please.

Here you have the short version of he rules for now:

SPOILER
Taiko Rankability Rules and Guidelines (Short and clear version)

Rules - You may not break these ever

  1. Diff. Name
    Discourage diff. names are not allowed.
  1. Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
    Overall Difficulty and HP Drain Rate: 4~7
    OD and HP in marathon-kind maps: 1~4
    (Circle Size and Aproach Rate have no effect in Taiko)
  1. Countdown
    Don't use countdown on a taiko specific map. If the notes start too quickly, add a lead-in time.
  1. Finish Notes
    Not allowed to use at the beginning or in the middle of a stream.
    End of stream is allowed in following cases: xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
  1. Kiai Time
    Use the kiai time just in the choruses of a song. Do not use short "flashes" of kiai like you might use in an osu! standard map.
  1. Rest Moments
    Every specific Taiko diff. need to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.
  1. Custom Hitbursts
    It is not allowed to assign custom hitbursts to a taiko map.

Guidelines - Under special circumstances these may be broken

  1. Slider Velocity
    The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 must be used.
  1. Note Streams
    For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the musik while 1/8 is generaly forbidden.
    Information: Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
    Below is a visual example of 4 notes in a 1/6 under 1.4 slider velocity:
  1. BPM Changes
    Unnecessary BPM changes are not allowed unless the song has a relatively low BPM.
    Overlapping notes are not allowed, too, unless the song has a suitable changing BPM part for this with no complex streams.
    When changing BPM it is advisable to use the method or fixing it with useing a series of slowing slider velocity sections:


    Note in the example above that multiple slider velocities are used to show a visual slowdown of notes, without the 0.5 section being "overlapped" by the final note preceding it.
  1. Drumrolls(Sliders)
    Use sparingly within a map and keep a 1/2 beat space between them and any other object.
    Try not to put sliders one after each other - 2 or 3 in a row may be acceptable in some cases.
    Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower since it gives 1/8 rills, and probably most songs dosen't contain 1/8 beats.
    Not suggested to use them in quite sections because slider = 1/4 streams
  1. Spinner
    Leave at least a 1/2 beat between a note and a spinner. Using them on 1/4, 1/6 or 1/8 streams may be okay.
    Short spinners are not recommended because it's loud and distracts players.
  1. Breaks
    Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
  1. Custom Hitsounds and Volume
    Don't use them in taiko specific maps. Keep volume at a consistent level (e.g. 80%) in keeping with the song throughout all timing sections, with the beat still somewhat audible.
    The generel audio use is be ,,Normal".

Recommendations - These are recommended but not fully necessary

  1. Custom combo colours
    Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overridden in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
  1. Reasonable hitobject-placement
    Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I think the short version is clear and good enough to be handed in as 1.0 version.
From now on I suggest to let this rules live and develop on its own (like they do in standard mode)

If it turns out that there are apparent needs for adjustments, they can be assigned later on.
Anything else that could be disturbing in a song is song-specified in most cases and don't need to be generalized in a rule or guideline.

This rules shouldn't replace the modding process, so with THIS we have some compendium of what is a "no-go" EVERYWHERE. When something on a specific taiko map turns out to be 'eww' even if it's not forbidden, mod it out of it.
Same method gets used in standard mode. So we can do the same.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
^ Agree.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
OD/HP of marathon diffs: 1~4
=>

HP of marathon diffs: 1~5 depends on length and # of notes in the song.
You didn't add "Tick rate 3 for 1/3 songs only" as well.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
After revising the whole short edition with wmfchris once again, I've shortened and focused the rules once more. Also I moved some guidelines to recommendations, shortened stuff and moved rules within guidelines to rules and such stuff. Awaiting your everyone's approval

Taiko Mapping Rules and Guidelines

Rules - You may not break these ever

  1. Difficulty names
    Difficulty names must be taiko specific, but don't need to contain it's difficulty rating self (e.g. Taiko, Taiko Oni, Taiko Muzukashii). Guest difficulties may contain the mapper's name.
  1. Difficulty settings and song setup
    Overall difficulty and HP drain rate should be between 4~7.
    Exception: Maps exceeding usual draining time should have a life drain between 1~4 depending on length and numbers of notes
  1. Countdown
    Don't use countdown. If the notes start too quickly, add a lead-in time.
  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
    At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
    xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
  1. Kiai Time
    Only use the kiai time in the chorus of a song. Do not use short kiai "flashes".
  1. Rest moments
    Every difficulty needs to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.
  1. Overlapping notes
    Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.

Guidelines - Under special circumstances these may be broken
  1. Slider Velocity
    The Slider Velocity should be 1.40 or 1.60.
  1. Streams
    For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the music.
    Avoid using 1/8 streams by any circumstance.
  1. Drumrolls(Sliders)
    Use sparingly within a map and keep a 1/2 beat space between them and any other object.
    Try not to put sliders one after each other.
    Avoid using sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower.
    Use a tick rate of 3 if the song self is snapped on 1/3.
  1. Spinner
    Leave at least a 1/2 beat between a note and a spinner. Using them on streams may be okay.
    Short spinners are not recommended.
  1. Breaks
    All break sections should be artificially removed from the .osu file.
  1. Custom Hitsound Volume
    Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
    Use the "Normal" audio sample set.

Recommendations - These are recommended but not fully necessary

  1. Custom combo colours
    Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overwritten in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
  1. Reasonable hitobject-placement
    Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
    PICTURE
  1. Custom 1/3 and 1/6 streams Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
    Below is a visual example of 4 notes in a 1/6 under 1.4 slider velocity:
Last edited by Loctav , edited 1 time in total.
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]
I still don't think xxxxxxxxO should be specially permitted
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
What makes it different from xxxxooooX ?
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
well, why not xxxxxxxxX ? (theoretically easier than the xO type)
you could permit Oxxx / Xooo (as long it play much much much good and direct, ) they could "have sense" but being difficult to play if not intuitive, you should pretty much say to try to use it if their using have sense )
The xoxoxoxoX could be allowed. But yeah, if people use them they should pretty much have sense.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
No it's not easier, because you'd have to press the same key twice in a row in a stream.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We discussed the variations of finish streams at the end/beginning/inbetween several times and we came to the conclusion, that the finish streams should only be allowed at this kind of patterns.
We cleary deny same coloured finishes, because you have to play (for me as example) sdsdsd(sd) - (or for default settings: djdjdjdj(DJ))
Try to imagine that you stream on standard with two keys and then have to hit the last note with both keys.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The thing with different colored finishes is that you have to hit them with different keys than you were streaming with, so they are easier to hit.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Loctav said everything.
This has been dicussed many times and ,,xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX" is the absolut final decision.
No ...xoxO or anything else.

Also who don't like them, don't need to map them. Everything is moding based.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

MMzz wrote:

I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)

I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
We don't need to add to the rules that hitobjects need to fit the music. (which also means that finishers should only be placed where it fits)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Different versions has been posted into the first post.
Taiko_BG case will be also added to Recommendation.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
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Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Probably should, albeit authentic TnT rarely ever goes over 2 mins (if ever) but we have a lot of ranked long Taiko maps so i guess we could just put the same limit for Taiko maps.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
There are some cases though with 4:30+ minute songs.
They are mapped with breaks such that the standard difficulties are under 4:30 min draining time.

If there is a Taiko, then the mapset would have to be approved just for the Taiko diff due to Taiko not having breaks.
Perhaps some leeway should be allowed for cases like this?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Since Taiko does not really affects whether the mapset is approved or ranked, Currently it depends on draining time of standard maps.
(But if we have to make the limitation for Taiko maps, limit of draining time should be longer than 4:30, I think. Yeah. We don't have many breaks in our maps.)

And I'd rather say avoid using breaks unless the song is really long or mood of the part of the song is suit well with no notes. I don't like disallowing something, usually.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Set it to 5 minutes or the same total length of the corresponding standard diffs.
Yes, we don't use breaks as far as possible, but they are not required, since we don't need to rearrange ourselves like in standard (where the pen starts to glide out of the hand or the desk starts to end while playing with mouse)
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

NoHitter wrote:

Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
I guess so. The only problem is like in solo diffs 4:30 of draining time + breaks may last like 5 minutes, while taiko diff may fill up those breaks making the draining time exceeds 4:30.

In this sense I'll suggest 5:00 as the max draining time (well, Taiko mode has no "draining" lol)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
How about leaving it how it is? Since this wasn't never a problem or issue before.
Rei Hakurei
1,983 posts
Joined February 2011
Rei Hakurei
hmmm
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
it means finish note allowed in short stream like oX or ooX as long the finish note alternates with the previous note ?

also how long the longest stream are allowed in taiko?

thanks ^^
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I would not suggest using finishes in triplets.
Also there is no limit to stream length, but your map needs this resting moments - regardless of this, streams need to fit the song and only-stream maps are stupid in most cases and modders will request modifications like splitting it up.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Edit: One of the known bugs appeard in the diff.. All timelines are gone, this will be fix'd soon as possible.
I have some news for you guys:

I talked to mm201 for permission to upload and rank on the second osu server some maps which are related to the rule discussion to see how people react to some cases like for example "1/4 finish streams".
Here you can find the map: http://ha.ppy.sh/s/180
To have acess on the server, you need to open ,,osume.exe" and tick ,,use test build".
Note that just people with supporter tag are able to start it.

Test the maps and give us your opinion about the severel cases(if you have some).

Information about the maps and what they contain:
Taiko Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, ooX, spinners after stream, spinner/slider two times in a row, SV changes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Inner Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Ura Oni: Extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, high OD and HP

Note: Futsuu, Kantan and Muzukashii included to have a full Taiko no Tatsujin map-set.
matthewhln
247 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
OK, Chris is too lazy, so I rather paste my opinion here myself

Taiko diff name
I think "Taiko" must included in the difficult name to identify...

Some name like "Jubiko" is kind of confusing, that some people may not know that it is a combined name (taiko and jubeat)
which may cause them selecting the wrong difficulty (most likely the solo players)

But something like "Taikosaki" or "Taiko extra" can state very clearly it is a taiko difficult.

However, to keep mapper creative on the map name, this should better be placed in Guidelines instead of Rules, and judge by the modder and the mapper of that map


Deleting StoryBoard?
I think it is not nessasary to add this rule/guideline

Since it will need the coorperation between the mapper and the taiko guest mapper

Also the rules/guidelines are specify on the behavior of taiko mapper, it should not give the limit to the original mapper.
(There is no this kind of rule/guideline yet)


1/4 streams' big circle placement
I think there should be none of exception because of pattern (I don't oppose exception on BPM)

As firce said (lazy chris have not put it here yet),
it may not be fair to some player in their style (between using 2 fingers and 4 fingers)
for 2 fingers player, they may be harder the hit the big circle at the last note in "xxxxxxxxO" than 4 fingers player

Also, as Chris said,
「Same side should not be continuously hit in 1/4 stream」(he state that in Chinese ver post)
if Same side have been continuously hit in 1/4 stream, then it will be 1/8 (1/4 with single hand = 1/8 with both hands)

so the exception of "xxxxxxxxO" is not reasonable enough.
However, I will not exclude the possibility of making it into the guideline although it may not be the best way
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Sorry but - I didn't understand what I just read.
My apologizes but I don't get your stuff in any single way.
I guess I have to ask Wmf on my own >_>
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,820 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I understand your points matthe. @Loctav you can ask me. lol

diff names
Hey, the rules has been also changed in meaning, that's not good. I support what you said matthe since that was what I wrote down before and will also look through all rules to avoid such cases again.
(Yes, I didn't had a brief look through it after chris and loctav changed it for better understanding, sorry)

1/4 finishes
As I said before, ooooooooO is not allowed and I will also not change the rule anymore since this has been discussed now many years.
First reason not to take it was ,,it's not authentic", then the reason was ,,unplayable".
Both cases dosen't fit anymore nowadays, but the rules has been still made by considering this.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
My explaination is like
Instead of "you hit with the same finger consecutively" we could consider the drums in which "the same side of the drum is hit consecutively": the case "hit with the same finger/hand but different side of instrument" is common in sth like drum set while "hitting the same side of the instrument consecutively" is a bit odd.
Cristian
1,945 posts
Joined November 2009
Cristian
oh, god so many information makes my mind blow out of it, im gona try to keep it on it <_<
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
^@ read the OP, especially the latest version and state your opinion. Right now, they discuss about big-notes at stream ends. If you need any assistance catching up in this discussion, ask Onosaki, me or wmf ingame (or any discussion participant of your trust)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
No ,,oO".
Reason was given.
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