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New Rule: Difficulty names must name the difficulty

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ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Sakura Hana wrote:

Because i totally haven't seen maps with diff names Easy, Normal, Hard, Coffee before, and bubbled twice to boot
That is not a problem. It obviously wasn't a problem for the bubblers, the modders, or the author. Had the difficulty names been:
Monkey, Potato, ziin's Heart, Coffee, there is an obvious problem and someone will say something.

I want standardized names or no rule at all. Common sense is not dead.

Odaril wrote:

Not all the time. But if either exists (either in the diff name, either in the main post), I'm fine with it.
This can be a rule. In fact, this should be the rule we get out of this topic. We can recommend the guest author's name be in both the main post and the diff name.
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman

senaya wrote:

so why do guest diffs have to state the guest mapper's name? it is guest mapper's right to call it the way he wants it to be called as long as it's not breaking the other rules because he is the one who mapped it. why force them to do something that won't change anything for players?
It's to give credit towards those that pitched in to help with the map set. Even that kind of difficulty labeling can make sense if done right like "[senaya's Extreme]" or something like that for example.

But, if it's something like "[whymeman's cookies]" then a lot of players wouldn't know if it's going to be a Easy, Normal, or Hard (or even Insane).
senaya
osu! Alumni
5,798 posts
Joined March 2010
senaya

whymeman wrote:

It's to give credit towards those that pitched in to help with the map set. Even that kind of difficulty labeling can make sense if done right like "[senaya's Extreme]" or something like that for example.
that's not what i mean. why would you force the guest mapper to put his name into the diff name if he wants to name it just [Hard]?
he's already mentioned in tags and in the first post anyway.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
I say we only make it mandatory that Taiko diffs make it obvious that they're Taiko diffs in their names, because I've seen that happen twice to me before and it's a bit annoying; I should not have to look at the scoreboard to see what mode the diff is in! That's it, really.
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
Tags won't mean much in terms of giving credit for the work. As far as i've seen, some maps are made with normal difficulty names without the mapper's name in it. But, credit is still given in some kind of form, usually through a Story Board or the Opening Post. As long as the credit is properly given, then that issue shouldn't be as stressful to work out.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe

Sakura Hana wrote:

@YodaSnipe: Hmm excuse me? that's not relevant to the topic at hand, but if you want an answer sb/skin/bg form part of the mapper's map, diff names like cake, coffee and potato make no sense to me tho, but since that's what the community wants...
1. you're excused.

2. cool nuff said. thx

Natteke wrote:

Now you look more like a dictator, Sakura :( inb4 post deleted
That's because she is one, but a dictator would never admit it!
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
As I said before, stay on topic and refrain from insults.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Okay, I propose this wording then:

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name, either in the first post. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I think you meant "either in the difficulty name, or in the first post"
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
I remember the old days when you could name your diff whatever the hell you want you would have to be a oldfag to get that joke.
all jokes aside this shouldn't be a rule if anything a guideline in fact the only way this could be a rule is if we ruled out name changes all together aside from that you guys should save your energy on threads that have a bit more meaning and rules that really do need to be discussed not silly rules that don't make a bit of difference in the game even if they get added.
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi
I like that rewording, but I still think this should be a guideline.

There are certain mappers that have made an exclusive name for their guest difficulties. Examples are Blue Dragon (Nogard), kingsal2 (Alarmable) and I guess we can add Rin and even Kirby in here.

I think that, as long as it makes sense or it's related in any way to the song/theme or difficulty (like calling an Insane [Armageddon]) AND it's not way too ridiculous, it should be okay. I personally see no harm on having a Pokemon themed beatmap with difficulties called [Pichu] [Pikachu] [Raichu] or similar (or even beatmania songs with [Hyper] and [Another]), but I really think things like this shouldn't be allowed at all, because they make zero sense.

(I'd also like to say that any kind of silly/annoying looking diff name such as [I~n~s~a~n~e] shouldn't be allowed either).
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name, either in the first post. Any difficulty name they can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
I forgot about that D:

But yeah, this wording takes difficulty names like Rin or Kirby MIX, Taikolor, Taikosaki and others into account. I still want it to be a rule - there's nothing really badly limiting there, and it would only prevent the most extreme cases.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
usually taikos are named using the Taiko no Tatsujin way of naming, so this is actually taking this into account, plus you can now specify the mapper name in the op post, so I can support this... maybe "Fruit"
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
For instance could someone tell me what these diffs are? and how am i supposed to know without checking creator's words, 60% of the diff names is just the mapper's name+gatari, no difficulty level, nor anything at all
Natteke
6,540 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
How you're supposed to know? Freaking play them, if you weren't going to play, why did you DL the map?
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe

Natteke wrote:

How you're supposed to know? Freaking play them, if you weren't going to play, why did you DL the map?
this.

Also, they are all maps that add to your insane top40s on piotrekol's osustats.tk soooo yeah go play em all anyways?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
To be fair, I have no idea how hard [insane] is on 90% of the maps I play unless I look at the star rating, the mapper, and the scores. And even then it's a ballpark guess. And all of these things are unavailable to me in multiplayer.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe

ziin wrote:

To be fair, I have no idea how hard [insane] is on 90% of the maps I play unless I look at the star rating, the mapper, and the scores. And even then it's a ballpark guess. And all of these things are unavailable to me in multiplayer.
- Have a good laugh if it totally r4p3s you.
- Get some score if it doesn't

/win win?
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

Odaril wrote:

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name, either in the first post. Any difficulty name they can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
Let's just discuss this now, the part forcing the difficulty name to appear has already been dropped.
L_P
1,370 posts
Joined July 2011
L_P
let mappers and creators decide to do anything , anything stupid
when most players didnt complain about it, we dont need to waste our time to create such rules
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
I want to chainsaw this thread.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe

ztrot wrote:

I want to chainsaw this thread.
/me hands ztrot a chainsaw

have at it ^^
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman

L_P wrote:

let mappers and creators decide to do anything , anything stupid
when most players didnt complain about it, we dont need to waste our time to create such rules
.... till the level of stupidity comes to the point a rule must be made to fix it? Not a good suggestion for far-sight. But like I was saying, this rule isn't restricting mappers to use names like Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane, and Extreme. It's more like a basic common sense thing to keep things from becoming absurdly ridiculous in terms of what the name SHOULD mean. Also, when something becomes a problem enough to be suggested a fix by a rule, then the problem is noticeable. Just saying "leave it, it's not going to hurt anyone" is just lazy and a inconsiderate way of thinking without attempting to think why and how it is an issue. If you put yourself before others in any of the rule topics for your own needs, your logic would risk breaking easily or be ignored. The rule topics affects everyone, not just yourself.

It's a bigger waste of time not reading and thinking though it before posting only to post a "complaint" about the rule without leverage to the logic.
YodaSnipe
1,378 posts
Joined February 2011
YodaSnipe

whymeman wrote:

Also, when something becomes a problem enough to be suggested a fix by a rule, then the problem is noticeable. Just saying "leave it, it's not going to hurt anyone" is just lazy and a inconsiderate way of thinking without attempting to think why and how it is an issue. If you put yourself before others in any of the rule topics for your own needs, your logic would risk breaking easily or be ignored. The rule topics affects everyone, not just yourself.
Tell this to sakura hana, she does this oooon I think every suggested new feature, etc. Honestly, it's as though she is trying to piss everyone off.

Back on topic, I think it's fun to see maps with names that you'd have to watch the anime, know the mapper, etc, etc to get the diff names. To those who don't know then they're just names, but for those who do know it's kinda clever js.
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
I'll be blunt, I don't give a care about the "he said/she said" finger pointing. Attacking people in a group debate is not cool on either side.

And back on the topic..... Difficulty names related to the anime sounds reasonable, but still needs to make some sense. And when i'm saying something that doesn't make sense, I mean something like [Windy] & [Breezy]. It's the same thing in general terms.
Weez
2,318 posts
Joined February 2009
Weez
Guessing something like this would be a good fix for anime related diff names: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24135
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Weezy wrote:

Guessing something like this would be a good fix for anime related diff names: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24135
That's good, sometimes i wonder why people bothered to write a FAQ if people don't even look at it:

FAQ wrote:

Difficulty: While the other fields should be identical between all maps in a set, the Difficulty field is filled differently for each map, to indicate which ones are harder than others. You can select one of the default names, or create your own name. While it's good to be creative, try to make it very clear which one is harder than others -- Ambiguous difficulty names can annoy players. This would also be the field where you indicate a guest mapper, if this is their difficulty (e.g. "Larto's Hard").
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
meeeh I still think we can do what we want if it needs to be corrected then do it on that map thread no need for a rule this is a lost cause
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman
It's more of a loss cause if it's not noted for those to read. Though, this could be a Guideline at least if being a rule is "too extreme".
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

Odaril wrote:

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name, either in the first post. Any difficulty name they can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
Let's just discuss this now, the part forcing the difficulty name to appear has already been dropped.

Reposted because people won't read.

The part of the rule limiting the naming to something standard has been dropped on general consensus long ago, this is now what we should be discussing.
Stop ignoring my posts or any post that actually tries to get things moving.

And before you all go "but this is common sense" "this is obvious" "we don't need such a rule", experience has proven that not everyone has the same common sense and that we indeed need to state the obvious.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
it already is a guideline tho, it is noted not to use something out of the way but if I make something that is like this ember, flame, blaze, inferno common sense tells me anyone with common sense could make that out.

As for mapper set names I'm fine with them being just nammed ztrot or noguard what ever it is called. As long as the map listing pages still shows a I H N E you should be able to check unless we are wanting to make everything easy and what our users to ignore the website
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
The rule as I proposed it doesn't prevent that kind of naming. It is widely known that Nogard is Blue Dragon's difficulty, so it falls under the second sentence. And people can keep naming their BMS maps Standard Hyper Another even if there are guest difficulties as long as they state in the map description who mapped which difficulty.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

ztrot wrote:

it already is a guideline tho, it is noted not to use something out of the way but if I make something that is like this ember, flame, blaze, inferno common sense tells me anyone with common sense could make that out.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Odaril wrote:

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name, either in the first post. Any difficulty name they can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
This is great, except a few grammars.

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name or in the first post. Any difficulty name the mapper can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.

As for the 2nd part, there might be a problem with "clearly". Not that this beatmap will ever get ranked, but "sayako" is clearly a taiko in my eyes, since I know the map. To someone who just downloaded the map or is unfamiliar with it, they will likely not know the difference. I'd just like some opinions on whether or not this map fits this rule.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I would go "no" and say that the name must contain the word "Taiko" or "CtB". It's not that hard.

Also ;_; my grammar
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
like I said this wouldn't be a rule a guideline at best unless you disable the namechange in the editor it's self. That is relevant
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
Thank you for not reading the other posts.
Let me repeat it once again: the part forcing the standard difficulty names has been dropped.
We are discussing guest difficulty naming now.

Disabling the namechange in the editor would make naming guest difficulties impossible. You're completely out of the discussion right now.

Also, after thinking a while, I think this case is fine, ziin, considering the other difficulties. Although it sounds and looks weird (to me at least).
Wording that kind of thing won't be easy though...
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Sakura Hana wrote:

For instance could someone tell me what these diffs are? and how am i supposed to know without checking creator's words, 60% of the diff names is just the mapper's name+gatari, no difficulty level, nor anything at all
some are mapper related (cesc, Magic, Kuro), Katanagatari means Story of Katana, the Kyotouryuu is the fighting style name of the protagonist. Yet I have no problem saying which one is easier, which one is hard, and which one is done by the author.
Oh, finally ended...

Anyway, cases like this are anyway good as naming, as Ritsu is a drummer (and that obviously call "Taiko").
To with other similiar cases.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
2 things need to be solved.

1. we need to know who made which difficulty.
2. we need to know if a difficulty is taiko or ctb (if it happens in the future)

And then what's wrong with ziin's version...?

For naming the diff [Herp] or [Derp], i suggest just leave that a case to case thing, if it makes no sense to a MAT/BAT he'll be free not to bubble/rank it, but since it may make sense to certain group of people, i don't suggest to make it a rule as we're not required to know everything with every music we have.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
There must be a way to know the difficulty is a Taiko or CtB specific diff. I can't think of any wording atm, so I suggest to just drop that part and only keep the one about guest mappers' names.

@NatsumeRin the second part of your post is relevant to the previous naming issue which (yay I'm gonna repeat that all the time) has already been dropped.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Anyway, cases like this are anyway good as naming, as Ritsu is a drummer (and that obviously call "Taiko").
To with other similiar cases.
There's nothing preventing osu from following the drums either. Anyone not familiar with Ritsu (plenty of folks) would not know she's a drummer, and even so, she plays a drumset, not a taiko drum.

ztrot wrote:

like I said this wouldn't be a rule a guideline at best unless you disable the namechange in the editor it's self. That is relevant
give me an example of when you shouldn't give the mapper credit.
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-

ziin wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Anyway, cases like this are anyway good as naming, as Ritsu is a drummer (and that obviously call "Taiko").
To with other similiar cases.
There's nothing preventing osu from following the drums either. Anyone not familiar with Ritsu (plenty of folks) would not know she's a drummer, and even so, she plays a drumset, not a taiko drum.
I think the point is that it will make sense to the group of people who know who a certain character is, and since the beatmap is about a certain anime or whatever that said character is from, using that character's name would be fine
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

-A t H e N a- wrote:

I think the point is that it will make sense to the group of people who know who a certain character is, and since the beatmap is about a certain anime or whatever that said character is from, using that character's name would be fine
The flip side of that is that making Ritsu (Taiko) hurts no one. Leaving it called Ritsu makes me think this is a normal difficulty, then I click on it expecting to play a decent insane and get a taiko. It may make sense, but it's not obvious.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
You can still give credit in the Op, as written in the last version proposed.

Plus difficulty naming it's still a form of creativity, and shouldn't be eradicated
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

You can still give credit in the Op, as written in the last version proposed.
Because everyone in this community always checks creator's words before playing a map right?
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Because the mapper wants to show the whole world that they created that difficulty yes.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
I don't always give credit for the fact some times I have easy, normal, somebody's tough, insane so to make it fit better I will rename it to hard and state it in the op.
Backfire
3,208 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Well, taiko's can also have the word "drum" or "don/kat" in the name to show it's a taiko.

I named my taiko for La Di Da to La Di Don. It was originally Taika Di Da, but it's all the same thing.

I like giving my stuff some personality at the very least.

I name a majority of my taikos just Taiko Oni if the spread doesen't say other Guest's as well. Sometimes I do it just to be neat.
L_P
1,370 posts
Joined July 2011
L_P
why not make it like the creator can change something here or make another option for GD here

and so the guest diff. will show the name of the guest, then the guest / creator can name it "nogard" "flame" or just "Hard" instead of something like "L_P's hard" that seems fancy to me...
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,425 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Sakura Hana wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

You can still give credit in the Op, as written in the last version proposed.
Because everyone in this community always checks creator's words before playing a map right?
If this People don't do this, why should this care us?
Creator's Words has a Sense. Not just that it looks cool and sexy. :P
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't agree with this. It would create another potential war with beatmap makers that doesn't need to be. I think the star rating is sufficient enough to decide which difficulty it is in most cases. It's just common sense that the star rating is related to how difficult one can expect a map to be, especially when it's a full mapset with easy through insane.

Easy could be named pineapple and you would still know it's the easiest because it's the lowest starred map. The same could be said for the other difficulties except hard modes, which require an extra level of thinking to consider whether they are an hard mode or an easier Insane if it's not obvious.

Collabs are a bit harder to decipher. A good rule is to consider collabs as Hard/Hard+ to Insane. The weight of whether it's one or the other before I play it is insignificant. I know it's going to be one or the other.They could call it Collab Hard or Collab Insane and I wouldn't mind- it would make it clearer, but it doesn't seem as necessary as a rule. A guideline would handle this nicely.

Now taiko maps can be identified easily in standard mode. The difficulty is often hard to determine. I don't think it would be wise to require inexperienced modders to point out taiko maps that don't have difficulty names attached. Taiko follows a different difficulty system than standard and if this were a rule, there would need to be a defacto standard for taiko difficulty naming in an official post somewhere on the forums. Until that happens taiko maps should be exempt from such a rule.

It's just a lot of hassle for little reason.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
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Joined March 2010
Sakura
The issue here is "Does it make sense for a game to have difficulties named like that?"
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
hmm, yep?

it's a game in the first place
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
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TheVileOne
The OP doesn't make that clear. In most cases that I've seen the difficulty names are structured in a progressively harder terminology. If someone wants to name their hardest difficulty as something other than Insane, then I have no issue with it, because this is a common tactic for beatmap makers. Some makers have signature names for their hardest difficulty or even naming guidelines.

WyndII named guest diffs as WyndII Style and Natsume Rin names the hardest as just Rin. Others use references as difficulty names. It doesn't matter if the difficulty name doesn't directly indicate how hard a map is, because it indirectly indicates it.

My opinion is that restricting naming conventions limits creativity and standardizes osu as a whole. I don't think it's worth it to limit creativity in such an unnecessary manner.

Osu shouldn't go down such a slippery slope. What game starts with total freedom and overtime strips those freedoms away? Where should we draw the line and say that mappers should be able to map in this precarious way or that way when it can be done correctly? This is where I draw the line. We shouldn't restrict things that don't absolutely need to be restricted.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
the fun thing is that the mapping level is higher now,but the freedom don't make it exit...

A guest mapper's name must appear either in the difficulty name or in the first post. Any difficulty name the mapper can be recognized with is fine. This is meant to give credit to mappers for their work. Difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
this actually is the last version (OP isn't updated)
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Amended to pretty much what's in the post above - just cleaned up the wording and removed an unneccesary sentence.

A guest mapper's name must be credited either in the difficulty name or in the first post of the map thread. Any difficulty name the mapper can be recognized by is fine. In addition, difficulties meant to be played in a special game mode must clearly state in their name what mode they are made for.
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