Can we retroactively add Kudosu to already approved maps?

EDIT:
One thing I worry about this system is that it hurts new mappers.

1. Kudosu comes from giving good comments and criticism.
2. Being able to give good comments and criticism depends largely on the mapper's experience.
3. Experience comes largely from receiving criticism from maps they make.
4. New mappers won't receive as much criticism because older mappers have more kudosu.

The argument I see is that new players can look at and study maps that are being worked on, though the typical new mapper won't look as far as that unless being directly told to.

I propose that there be workshops. What I'm thinking is to have a pack of .osu files of short, simple songs with examples. Each song could focus on a different aspect of good beatmapping. The examples would highlight different approaches to beatmapping.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Long maps shouldn't really be ranked. Try and cut down the length.

We are working on making it more noob friendly - having a random "mod a noob's map" button for people to use, and maybe a kudosu bonus for doing so.

The topic explains how kudosu are given retrospectively.

At the meeting it seemed alot more complicated. At least now I can understand it Few Questions:

1) So beatmaps still can get graveyarded, right?
2) Wasn't something disscussed about having modders monitor the end of the list?
3) So anyone can view the priority list, or just BATs?
4) If 3) is everyone, are we forced to mod near the top, or can we mod anywhere?

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

I think a lot of the problems stem from the paradoxes and loops that the Kudosu system could potentially create (i.e. what Dranoel said, and the worry that beatmaps at the top will get modded far more than those at the bottom). So what I propose is stacking the amount of Kudosu that can be earned by non-BATs depending on how low on the priority list it is; more Kudosu can be earned by modding maps at the bottom of the list. That way, the BATs can focus on the top of the list (getting those maps ranked), while not BATs can cover the bottom of the list and thus help push them further up, thus taking a kind of "divide and conquer" approach that assures that newer maps don't get favored over older ones.

Of course, the way I envision it would require a complete revamp of the amount of Kudosu earned, as well as the requirements for getting a Star. But if you can think of a way to circumvent that little kink, be my guest.

*scribbles furiously over horrendous plans and starts over*

I think a lot of the problems stem from the paradoxes and defeating-of-purpose the Kudosu system could potentially create (mainly beatmaps lower on the priority list getting completely ignored by BATs and non-BATs alike). So what I propose is that the Kudosu earned by non-BATs for modding a map depend on how often it's been modded. I cannot even begin to explain all the relatively solid maps I've seen that haven't gotten a single mod while other maps that almost blatantly break the submission rules get mods in the double-digits. So what I'm getting at is, the less a beatmap has been modded, the more Kudos you can earn. This assures that the BATs can focus on getting the upper-priority maps ranked while non-BATs cover those that haven't really been touched, so that few, if any, beatmaps get ignored the way they did in the past.

Of course, the way I envision it, it may require a complete revamp of the amound of Kudosu earned per-mod, as well as the requirements of getting a Star. But if you can fix this little kink, be my guest.

I think we should, like peppy said, just give it a trial run first, then propose any changes maybe a month from now?

Echo wrote:

I think we should, like peppy said, just give it a trial run first, then propose any changes maybe a month from now?

I agree. I think the whole aspect of the Kudosu system is pretty cool, and look forward to seeing results. Also, I'll try to mod/BAT more often! No promises though. >_>

JarJarJacob wrote:

I think kudosu givers should have a sort of 'half-kudosu' for posts that are only mildly helpful.

Yeah, I like this too. Or make the star for 6 stars and option to give 1, 2 or 3 points.

Can you give the star to a beatmap that is not years?

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About the stars assigned by BATs.... I assume they will still be that placement of status that's basically "This map is quite good and just needs some minor fixes" and not just be a priority boost?

Also, I do agree with the thought of giving 1/2 for small helpful posts like slight but useful timing adjustments and the such. And pointing out that you made a stupid spacing mistake no one else noticed. (Hehe I remember that stupid mistake I made~)

The system already looks like it's really polished. And it's been around....a day.

An64fan wrote:

Also, I do agree with the thought of giving 1/2 for small helpful posts like slight but useful timing adjustments and the such. And pointing out that you made a stupid spacing mistake no one else noticed. (Hehe I remember that stupid mistake I made~)

1/2 kudosu for things that are the only things some people can do would be really discouraging. If the post is helpful in ANY way, it should be given some kudosu IMO. If it's not useful at all, then no kudos for them. Even small things should be given some kudos, as peppy said in the meeting (ect. If they think the timing may be late). Giving useful input of any kind is encouraged, especially since newbies can give some useful input, but may have trouble going in depth; if those kind of posts got half a kudos, and that was the best they could do, they'd be really, really discouraged from modding. However, getting a (full) kudos for something that they found, like, say, a spacing error, would be encouraging (since you were able to find their post helpful).

I know I've given kudosu for small things that I've found helpful. Not everyone can mod in-depth, but everyone can play through a map and see if there's obvious spacing errors, or if the timing feels off, things like that. ;P 'Sides, it takes 3 kudosu to get a star, so 1/2 kudosu wouldn't really help much (it'd take 6 halves, which since some people don't check their maps 24/7, can take a while), especially if that's the only 1/2 you got for a long time (since the 1/2 wouldn't be able to add up to anything until you got another 1/2, since 3 + 1/2 = 3 1/2, and you can't use that 1/2 for anything).

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

me like.

wait where did I get 3 kd

lukewarmholiday wrote:

wait where did I get 3 kd

You can check in your profile.

peppy wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

wait where did I get 3 kd

You can check in your profile.

Well I checked afterwards but when I made the post I had no clue.

Also what I like about system is that if a noob mapper can't mod a map, he probably shouldn't be submitting maps

I think I just thunk of another problem that may potentially arise, especially from the "more Kudosu for older maps" point:

You see, if I were a beatmapper whose maps didn't get modded despite repeated bumps/requests on the IRC chat, I would personally give up on that map (and, in the most extreme case, mapping altogether). Thus, I'm afraid that most people who try to mod older maps may not get any kudosu at all simply because the original mapper gave up on the map long ago and thus wouldn't notice a new mod to give the kudos in the first place.

There are two ways I could see this problem being remedied:

1) Impose a time limit in the Pending/Help boards similar to the way the Graveyard works; any beatmap that is not responded to in a given amount of time (say, 2-4 weeks) should be purged. If the mapper wants it back on, all they need do is simply resubmit their map. This way, abandoned maps can be cleared out (and free up storage space to boot!), while those who still care about their maps can have a safeguard against deletion.

2) Allow BATs to award Kudosu as well as the original mapper. If a mapper has abandoned their map, this assures that people who provide constructive mods still get the Kudosu they deserve.

MisterVercetti wrote:

I think I just thunk of another problem that may potentially arise, especially from the "more Kudosu for older maps" point:

You see, if I were a beatmapper whose maps didn't get modded despite repeated bumps/requests on the IRC chat, I would personally give up on that map (and, in the most extreme case, mapping altogether). Thus, I'm afraid that most people who try to mod older maps may not get any kudosu at all simply because the original mapper gave up on the map long ago and thus wouldn't notice a new mod to give the kudos in the first place.

There are two ways I could see this problem being remedied:

1) Impose a time limit in the Pending/Help boards similar to the way the Graveyard works; any beatmap that is not responded to in a given amount of time (say, 2-4 weeks) should be purged. If the mapper wants it back on, all they need do is simply resubmit their map. This way, abandoned maps can be cleared out (and free up storage space to boot!), while those who still care about their maps can have a safeguard against deletion.

2) Allow BATs to award Kudosu as well as the original mapper. If a mapper has abandoned their map, this assures that people who provide constructive mods still get the Kudosu they deserve.

I think this is already the case for both points.

What awp said.

The Star System is almost fully implemented, except for being able to trade kudosu for kudosu stars. This will come within the next 24 hours when I'll post full details on the system.

The forums are already ordered with priority as a consideration - you will notice some maps get a (SP+1) rating, where the number denotes how much priority is given to the map. normal user star +1, kudosu star (not impleented yet) +2, BAT star +3.

Actually, that seems very neat and organized to me. It's kinda like, separate the bad-on-purpose maps to the real good and must-rank ones. I really agree with the idea.

But them again hopefully that'll make people mod more, so we wouldn't even have "bad" beatmaps anymore!

About the [SP+#] mark after the Thread title, Wouldn't it be nicer if placed as an icon right after the icons meaning (un)read thread?

SP system= Give more priority for exprienced-beatmappers

I think SP system gives more chances to exprienced-beatmappers.
Look at the SP-given beatmap's author. Most of them are popular users or experienced beatmappers.
They can get a normal user star/BAT star much easier than others.
For example, Look Ekaru's. It's a new beatmap but it got the most SP at once.
So beginners are hard to get a chance.
osu-ers likes to mod exprienced-beatmappers' beatmaps.

I think normal user star, BAT-star needs a limit.
(1 star per a day, Beatmap's age is older than 2-3weeks etc.)

Haha, the reason for that is simple. ;P

Since the system is new and you can't trade kudosu for stars yet, just 1 user star and 1 BAT to look at it and star is enough to get it near the top. Another user star was enough to put it at the top once Coke Town got ranked (then I got yet another one). Once it was at the top, it ended up with 3 more BATs looking at it and staring it, and 1 more user, so it's at... 15 SP now. ;P

Give it more time. It was just easy because people were willing to look since it was short, it's a somewhat known song (for many of us it was the last song we really remember), and because I asked them to in IRC. Anyways, last night users alone got a newbie map close to the top, so it works that way too.

in a map that have more than one difficulty... if a user mod one difficulty per post in diferent days (been able to post it all in one) just to earn more kudosu.. is that an abuse? i mean do deserv more than one kudosu?

sorry for my bad english...

Lizbeth wrote:

in a map that have more than one difficulty... if a user mod one difficulty per post in diferent days (been able to post it all in one) just to earn more kudosu.. is that an abuse? i mean do deserv more than one kudosu?

sorry for my bad english...

You're english is fine, Lizbeth.

You should probably consider, "Did this advice help make a large improvement?" or if it was, say, a small adjustment to something like a combo or the offset.

If you feel their work was a big help, then go ahead and give them 2 kudosu.

Kudosu stars are now tradeable via the Beatmaps section of your profile. I'll write this up when I am more awake.

Wow, we can use many kudosu stars on one beatmap.

I used so much kudosu stars on my beatmap. (sorry guys)
But I got tired to waiting. It's already half year old.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

peppy wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

wait where did I get 3 kd

You can check in your profile.

Well I checked afterwards but when I made the post I had no clue.

Also what I like about system is that if a noob mapper can't mod a map, he probably shouldn't be submitting maps

Everubody starts a noob, look at me. I want to get Kudosu but I don't think I'm good enough to fix other people's maps. Getting my maps ranked or approved will boast my confidence and my ability to help. Its a loop, and its hard to spin.

Atmey wrote:

Everubody starts a noob, look at me. I want to get Kudosu but I don't think I'm good enough to fix other people's maps. Getting my maps ranked or approved will boast my confidence and my ability to help. Its a loop, and its hard to spin.

Eh, after a week or so, you can help fix other people's maps. Read the Map Design FAQ issues first, so you know what to look for in general. Then just play each difficulty, see if there's anything wrong. Then you can go check in Editor for more in-depth stuff. For the most part it's just looking for objects with different spacing from the others that aren't intentional, or objects that are placed in a weird spot. Oh yeah, and seeing if there's anything particularly ugly or incorrect, ex. no stacking or 90% of the sliders overlapping each other (*is guilty*).

In order to give kudosu, you just need to give good constructive criticism, which anyone can do really. It's not that hard once you get used to it (like a few times), just time consuming depending on how in-depth you go.

As I said already - ANYONE can mod. Just play maps in pending until you find one that CLICKS for you. Then say how you like it andwould like to see it ranked. Then play the map a few times on each difficulty, and get a feel for what parts you like and don't like about it. Point these out and if you have the confidence, suggest improvements. even if you don't make suggestions, you are helping make the creator feel happy as you played their map. If you give some good feedback (it doesn't have to be technical!) then you are likely to get some kudosu.

Mention you are a noob if you don't feel confident too - its best to let people know so they understand why you haven't given them a 200 page essay about their map (not that i condone that ).

Current Priority: +12 (2 maps higher on the list)
You can earn kudosu by helping mod this map! You will gain 1 kudosu if you mod this map.

This was found in the header of a ranked map (Specifically, The Great Gianna Sisters). Shouldn't there be some kind of not-message for ranked maps? You can't really help them much...

I hath given this system a fair trial.

I love it! It works well. Since it gives us a reward for giving useful input, we are inclined to do so. People in chat are more willing to mod your maps now (since they know they might get some kudosu if they provide useful input), and priority helps quite a bit for BATs it seems, as they have a much lower chance of wasting their time on utter garbage now. Also, it's really easy to see what maps need modding ATM, and will be much easier to see in a week or two, because the system will have been in place longer.

tl;dr: <3 this system. Not that hard to get kudosu BTW, as long as you put effort into it. If you're new, I highly recommend going for maps by users with at least 1 ranked map, because it'll be much easier for you that way (chance of running into a map that should be nuked is next to none if the user has a ranked map, because they know what to do). Well-known mappers who have some friends might be kinda difficult, though, but you can go for it anyways, just be aware that someone might go for it while you're modding.

Oh yeah, and if you're new, just play through the map and say what you like and especially what you don't like. AKA, what peppy said, it really does work; that's what I've done quite a bit actually. ;P

Ekaru wrote:

I hath given this system a fair trial.

I love it! It works well. Since it gives us a reward for giving useful input, we are inclined to do so. People in chat are more willing to mod your maps now (since they know they might get some kudosu if they provide useful input), and priority helps quite a bit for BATs it seems, as they have a much lower chance of wasting their time on utter garbage now. Also, it's really easy to see what maps need modding ATM, and will be much easier to see in a week or two, because the system will have been in place longer.

tl;dr: <3 this system. Not that hard to get kudosu BTW, as long as you put effort into it. If you're new, I highly recommend going for maps by users with at least 1 ranked map, because it'll be much easier for you that way (chance of running into a map that should be nuked is next to none if the user has a ranked map, because they know what to do). Well-known mappers who have some friends might be kinda difficult, though, but you can go for it anyways, just be aware that someone might go for it while you're modding.

Oh yeah, and if you're new, just play through the map and say what you like and especially what you don't like. AKA, what peppy said, it really does work; that's what I've done quite a bit actually. ;P

You need a tl;dr for the tl;dr.
Anyway, thanks guys, I'll try to do that, I think I can give general opinions but not certain/exact adjustments on maybe harder difficulties.

Should there be a way of reporting undeserved kudosu? I've seen a few times where someone recieved 2 kudosu just for bumping their thread.

Like I guess we could just PM a mod, but that would be kind of a hassle..

0_o wrote:

Should there be a way of reporting undeserved kudosu? I've seen a few times where someone recieved 2 kudosu just for bumping their thread.

Like I guess we could just PM a mod, but that would be kind of a hassle..

PM a mod.

I think I'd prefer a kudosu reporting system to waking up to find my inbox full of pms (not that anyone pms me anyway )

Alrighty... so far, I'm liking this system. A lot of my worries got addressed quite nicely (especially the "view zero-reply threads only" option, which I've been practically abusing; I just hate seeing good maps go unmodded!).

Overall, well done. This should definitely take care of the issues plaguing the modding process beforehand.

I also think that if a reporting system was to be implemented, you should also be able to report deserved kudosu that wasn't given (like if someone mods a noob's map and the user never gets back to it)

I pointed that same thing out in one of my previous posts here.

Now, you all are probably hating me for continuing to play Devil's Advocate, but now I'm starting to witness the surfacing of a new problem; the Priority system is defeating its own purpose. To illustrate, I went to the Pending board and counted a total of 51 Lv. 1 Priority beatmaps, 18 Lv. 2 maps, and 23 Lv. 3 maps. If you ask me, this is far too many lower-level maps for the Priority system to be considered useful. We might as well not even consider these maps on the priority list, as most of them are still getting ignored. By this logic, one would have to dump countless amounts of Kudosu into a single map to even have a chance of getting their map noticed. You all may think otherwise, but I personally think most regular users (read: people who don't have as much mapping experience as others) would find it more of a hassle than it's worth to have to mod some 20 different maps AND pray that each mapper gives them Kudosu for their mods just to get one person to mod their own.

Thankfully, I've thought of two rather simple solutions:

1) Cut the star factor to a third of what it is now. This way, a BAT star will count as a full Priority level, a Kudosu star will count as 2/3, and a user star will count as 1/3. Stars will still have the same amount of clout they do now, but it would help to get rid of all the lv. 1 and 2 maps that are clogging the list. Levels would be rounded down to the fullest star count, so someone with two User stars (2/3) wouldn't show up on the priority list, someone with a BAT star and a Kudosu star (5/3) would be at level 1, etc. Not only would it help to decongest the list, but it would allow quality maps to still get ranking priority while ensuring that other maps don't get buried underneath a list that's filling far too fast for its own good.

2) Probably the easier solution: add a third option to the top of the forum that only displays maps NOT on the priority list.

I really don't like your idea about changing the values given. My first reason is because the ratio is the same. But it overcomplicates things and makes it so that only maps which have received a lot of attention will rise up on the priority list. Meaning if someone likes a map and stars it, it's still a 0-priority map, which I don't think is very fair.


Maps with stars have obviously been noticed and are liked, and aren't crap. That's filtering out all the bad maps that are out there. Fantastic first step if I do say so. If you have no stars, heck, it's not that hard to drop into irc and ask if anyone would be willing to mod. There's also the option for mods so they can ignore the star priority as well as search for only zero-reply threads.

It is not a matter of the system achieving for only a few maps, in fact, far from it. We've been seeing more and more modding lately, and much more willingness to go take a look at maps if someone's made the request. This is the next big step, and is even bigger than just sorting out maps based on whether someone likes them or not.


To be completely honest, I don't think there is any need to change the system. It really helps sort maps, whereas before the Pending and Help forums, especially Pending, were an absolute mess. Now there's a way, and a very effective way at that, to see who's maps are good and worthy of attention, and how much attention they've gotten. I don't think there's any reason to crush out those have at the least received a bit of attention but not a huge amount.

Besides, if you had thought a little you would have noticed that instead of changing the star values, you could have just done

floor(sp/3);

Not that I think it should be done. I kinda like it the way it is right now. After all, we're trying to encourage a "give and receive" attitude instead of a "get get get get get" attitude, aren't we?

What are these "levels" you speak of o.O

2) Probably the easier solution: add a third option to the top of the forum that only displays maps NOT on the priority list.

I'm all for this. Or a "mod random unmodded map" option which is planned to be implemented soon

I believe he means STAR POWER

JarJarJacob wrote:

I think kudosu givers should have a sort of 'half-kudosu' for posts that are only mildly helpful.

I am also not understanding what is kudosu

peppy wrote:

Just play maps in pending until you find one that CLICKS for you.

I like that wording =P

Also great job on the Kudosu system

I would like to comment that I think advanced beatmappers (unlike me) should have the power to grant 1 extra Kudosu for extra helpful posts that go far beyond the average amount of helpfulness.

Maybe having more than 5 ranked beatmaps would qualify someone, or hand picked people.

There should also be a character limit for the post, for it to be eligible for extra Kudosu.

^That would ruin the entire thing IMO. People would generally give those 2 kudosu only to BATs (because they and a few other people would qualify, so it'd be unequal, and if you could give it to all, there'd be 2-to-friends, 1-to-strangers mentality), and people would be PO'd because, even if they did a good job (like minyeob currently does), they would be PO'd that they weren't able to get 2 kudosu just because they weren't a current status. The '1 kudosu if helpful' all-or-nothing is the best way IMO. I think it's a wise idea to avoid things like that, because there would not only be bias from the beatmapper involved, but people going, "WTF, why didn't I get 2 kudosu? I DID A GOOD JOB!". Also, there are generally more errors to find (and more obvious) if you get to it first, so if the first person did a super thorough job, people would only be able to give their opinions on the map, and maybe a few hard-to-catch errors that sometimes aren't errors at all, thus getting less kudosu because they didn't get to it first.

And again, lots of arguments. I really want to keep kudosu drama to a minimum. The less drama the better in my book.

Ekaru wrote:

And again, lots of arguments. I really want to keep kudosu drama to a minimum. The less drama the better in my book.

I agree with that, however if there is a no-drama (to a large majority people) way to do it, I'm all for it!
Maybe I'm just having wishful thinking...

Without asking anyone before posting this, I would like to suggest that we keep the kudosu system modification requests to a minimum and bring them up in the next community meeting instead? That would give the system a fair test run imo.

The exception being, of course, if you spot something that is critical and would break the system.

thats a great idea peppy!

Derekku Chan wrote:

I have an idea similar to what chaosanime suggested. Maybe allow everyone to give extra kudosu for extensive modding. There could be a new group of Moderators for Kudos to make sure excessive kudos aren't being given out for no reason. They could also give out kudos or something like that.

The reason I bring this up is because sometimes I'll see someone receive 1-2 kudos for something as small as a combo change suggestion or tiny offset change (1-2 ms). Then, I'll see someone spend an hour or more give a post of 40 lines of changes to a map, because it needed a lot of help, and receive one kudo or sometimes nothing. The system feels like it could use some improvement, and I hope it can be worked on. :/

If this system gets implemented, I believe the bonus kudosu should be denyable but NOT able to be given by BAT's.

Or we could have a voting system where users who have modded and received kudosu in a thread can vote on other mods. The again that's a weird idea because not many mods check back on songs they've modded, I think. So yeah, *strike*.

Sadly "extensive modding" has no line from "normal modding." What one may consider extensive another may consider average, and vice versa. Thus kudosu moderators would be in trouble there...

Or this...

If someone feels they deserve more than one kudosu for their extensive mod, they can split the mod into two posts. That way the map creator can give as many kudosu as he wishes.

(Yeah, that seems like the best idea to me.)

Here comes a little rant... Beware.

Either the BATs or the SYSTEM need to change.
Most not all(!) BATs don't seem to care about Star-Priority.

This is something I'm quite sure of. Otherwise there wouldn't be 2 months, 40+ SP maps in Pending.
BAT's seem to mod well known mappers maps, OR their friends maps, ignoring the others until the requests piss them off too much so they actually look at it.

There are 6 month old maps with ok SP that has no BATs in it.

It's ridiculous, really.

Am I wrong? If so, please explain to me how it is.

[/angryrant]

Sorry. Had to say it.

Real1 wrote:

Am I wrong?

No.

Real1 wrote:

Am I wrong?

Your wright.