pieguy1372 wrote:

2. if you silence the slider-slide, you can't do that (but I plan to dispute this later too )

Please use the thread I started to discuss this, but stop trying to veer this one off-topic.

pieguy1372 wrote:

serious? Using a red line to half the BPM even though the rest of the song has the same BPM is not right because it's just one slow part, it's not a whole different section. Using a red line to set a new offset isn't correct because it's just for one section and the song is still following the old offset, and it won't even make a difference because the sliders and thus the ticks will still be placed in the same position.

In the case where there isn't a BPM change, there shouldn't be a tick rate change either, since BPM and tick rate are sister concepts.

pieguy1372 wrote:

your way of using ticks is the only one that makes sense = = the Ouendan game concept was designed for

fix'd.

pieguy1372 wrote:

that's not the problem, and also quit making it seem like we're insane. The problem is that there are some cases where even using tick rate 1 is too high.

Examples?

pieguy1372 wrote:

well then, why are "hold sliders" banned? Technically there's a very slow pace in a part where they are used, so won't a 0.5x bpm + a 0.5x inherited section (or even a 0.25x bpm) fit?

I want to bring back hold sliders. Using BPM changes to accomplish them is an error, but using speed changes to accomplish them currently has bugs. I will work on this once time permits.

In the case where there isn't a BPM change, there shouldn't be a tick rate change either, since BPM and tick rate are sister concepts.

the whole point is, they're really not >< As I said, there are other ways of doing things besides your way...

fix'd.

so it was originally designed that way, and we could start that way as a basis for what we should do, but once more fun could be had in other ways there's no point in staying with the original way = =

And don't try to say that tick rate 0.5/0 supporters are insane or the minority, as NatsumeRin said there are more tick rate 0.5/0 supporters than people who want it gone.

Examples?

see Alace's post ages ago, he had a bunch of them >.<

I want to bring back hold sliders. Using BPM changes to accomplish them is an error, but using speed changes to accomplish them currently has bugs. I will work on this once time permits.

awesome out of curiosity will there still be 1/1 ticks or will we be able to lower the tick rate?

pieguy1372 wrote:

And don't try to say that tick rate 0.5/0 supporters are insane or the minority, as NatsumeRin said there are more tick rate 0.5/0 supporters than people who want it gone.

Might i add that i'm all in for keeping 0.5 and that way people that are happy with 0.5 can use it, while the others that prefer tick rate 1/2 can use it? Everyone's happy that way (inb4 nope), i dont even think the removal was really necessary.

pieguy1372 wrote:

so it was originally designed that way, and we could start that way as a basis for what we should do, but once more fun could be had in other ways there's no point in staying with the original way = =

This causes issues with the structuring of the game. See the above points about sliders not requiring any player action, and speed change readability. (Whether you use it or not, it's an offering the game makes for players to use if they wish.)

pieguy1372 wrote:

And don't try to say that tick rate 0.5/0 supporters are insane or the minority, as NatsumeRin said there are more tick rate 0.5/0 supporters than people who want it gone.

I think that tick 0.5 supporters have a different understanding of how the game works. I would like to work out a solution that has balanced gameplay and satisfies everyone.

pieguy1372 wrote:

awesome out of curiosity will there still be 1/1 ticks or will we be able to lower the tick rate?

The tick rate would remain the same. I would probably need to look into doing something to improve the visual appearance of ticks which are too closely spaced--probably hiding every second one or something like that. Silencing the ticks on these sliders would be expected.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Might i add that i'm all in for keeping 0.5 and that way people that are happy with 0.5 can use it, while the others that prefer tick rate 1/2 can use it? Everyone's happy that way (inb4 nope), i dont even think the removal was really necessary.

^ This.
Ultimately, the wrong tick rate is just a minor annoyance. While it makes me sad to see maps reach ranking with a tick rate I find too low, I can still enjoy it if the map itself is good.
The only thing I saw being important was the speed change readability issue, which only shows up in 1% of maps anyway and is easily solved by removing a slider or choosing a less startling speed change.

This causes issues with the structuring of the game. See the above points about sliders not requiring any player action, and speed change readability. (Whether you use it or not, it's an offering the game makes for players to use if they wish.)

About not needing a player action, as I said hitting , releasing, and hitting again is not such a natural movement, so most players won't do it. About your example, I find that such sliders are not so common, and anyone who uses one likely wouldn't have tick rate 0.5 in the first place

About speed change readability, as I said if a speed change is used well it won't need a tick. Just because some people use ticks to read badly used speed changes, that doesn't mean that it should be forced on everything = =

I think that tick 0.5 supporters have a different understanding of how the game works. I would like to work out a solution that has balanced gameplay and satisfies everyone.

You can't just say that your way is better, because many people prefer the other way ><// If you and others want to satisfy everyone, removing an option is not such a good idea, because it leaves many people unsatisfied (though I know you didn't remove this yourself)

Regarding "balanced gameplay"
-I think that 99% of people won't notice any HP drain difference from 0.5 to 1 = = it will hardly matter because it's quite minor and most people would FC it anyway...
-I, and I'm sure others, think that making a map fit the song creates a more balanced experience than having a "constant rhythm" where it doesn't fit or having an out-of-place tick for 0.0001 extra HP which we won't even need. I recall one case where I had 3 new combos and someone told me to remove it because "it screwed up the hp drain", and I tested it myself and found it was the same whether I had new combos or not.

Ultimately, the wrong tick rate is just a minor annoyance. While it makes me sad to see maps reach ranking with a tick rate I find too low, I can still enjoy it if the map itself is good.

then why not add it? Leaving it out causes a lot of people to be unsatisfied just so some people get their way 100% of the time, and leaving it back in will allow it to be used in cases where it is useful and, as you just said yourself, is only a minor thing for the others = =

In other words, having it would satisfy a lot more people than not having it. I also think that almost everyone agrees that it is quite useful in some cases regardless of whether the person prefers it or not, which in itself should be a reason for it to stay...

Btw, Will the Tick Rate be changeable by sections? it'll really fit more... in all senses... (Talking about Section-based Tick Rates)

to pieguy... Well.mm and SakuraHana didn't want the removal of 0.5 anyway.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Btw, Will the Tick Rate be changeable by sections? it'll really fit more... in all senses... (Talking about Section-based Tick Rates)

to pieguy... Well.mm and SakuraHana didn't want the removal of 0.5 anyway.

Actually I like the idea of section-based tick rates.

But the problem is that this can be easily abused by mappers.

Well, actually even mapping is abused now, so that actually shouldn't be a problem.
We're making rules and guidelines to fight abuses, and well, one more guideline won't kill us.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Well, actually even mapping is abused now, so that actually shouldn't be a problem.
We're making rules and guidelines to fight abuses, and well, one more guideline won't kill us.

I'm sorry, what?

I worry that tick rate changes would get used by mappers for reasons other than a meter/tempo change in the song, which they shouldn't be. Which would lead to another debate much like this one. I think it's better to keep the genie inside the bottle.

mm201 wrote:

I worry that tick rate changes would get used by mappers for reasons other than a meter/tempo change in the song, which they shouldn't be.

For example, how? And I think it's up to mappers to decide how to approach mapping.

I quote Natteke response to mm.

it's up to mapper how to use features, and it's actually good using guidelines, Modders, MATs and BATs to control the use of them.

ykcarrot wrote:

RandomJibberish wrote:

In that example the ticks will still land on 1/1s and not sound too bad.

You're overmapping now.

My God, that is not what overmapping is. You've been in this community for how long now? If a phrase warrants the use of a long slider, then the ticks will work. If silence is more suitable, then nothing should be mapped. I felt like bringing this up, because I scrolled down and nobody seemed to have made a point of it.

Tick rate has no bearing on how over or undermapped a phrase is. I can use tick rate 4 on a Beginner difficulty and it not be overmapped.

If tick rates constitute mapping then SB sounds do too.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

it's up to mapper how to use features, and it's actually good using guidelines, Modders, MATs and BATs to control the use of them.

As always, this sounds nice on paper, but it rarely goes according to plan. All it takes is one strong-headed mapper and a lax BAT, or simply a BAT whose tired of all the fighting and pestering, to get an abusive map ranked. Once the precedent is set, more abusive maps will become ranked.

The osu!client is an early line of defense in stopping abusive or broken mapping from becoming ranked.
I don't agree with any of the examples provided, and adding a useless feature with high abuse potential would be a very big mistake.

There are 1/0 ( it tend to infinite if you're wondering ) modders to see if the feature has been badly used, and if a feature is badly used is really seeable.
I'm mostly supporting adding of Tick Rate 0.5 and maybe 0.33 plus 0.25, not tick rate 0 and maybe section based tick rates so you can effectively a map that need them better (Just add an Advanced section in the timing setup panel).

Do not permit map to be ranked in less than 4 days and with less than 8 mods and 8 Stars from different people(or even an higher limit) if you're afraid of misusing. It would've been more needed than removing 0.5 tick rates

mm201 wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

it's up to mapper how to use features, and it's actually good using guidelines, Modders, MATs and BATs to control the use of them.

As always, this sounds nice on paper, but it rarely goes according to plan. All it takes is one strong-headed mapper and a lax BAT, or simply a BAT whose tired of all the fighting and pestering, to get an abusive map ranked. Once the precedent is set, more abusive maps will become ranked.

The osu!client is an early line of defense in stopping abusive or broken mapping from becoming ranked.
I don't agree with any of the examples provided, and adding a useless feature with high abuse potential would be a very big mistake.

Examples of such abusive maps. please?

Just throwing this in... but isn't "Tick Rate 0" the same as not using a slider in its concept? Also, when 0.5 rates was used often back then, there was maps with difficulties or sets with doubled BPM. If you use the right BPM and/or setup of notes, then Tick Rate 1 shouldn't be much of a problem to use like some think. Not trying to say that this way is 100% perfect, but if mappers don't try to adjust to changes when they need to, then it's only going to cause problems when their mapping style is becoming out of date.

whymeman wrote:

Just throwing this in... but isn't "Tick Rate 0" the same as not using a slider in its concept?

no, a slider gives a "hold" feeling while a circle doesn't...

mm201 wrote:

The osu!client is an early line of defense in stopping abusive or broken mapping from becoming ranked.

abusive? examples please

I don't agree with any of the examples provided, and adding a useless feature with high abuse potential would be a very big mistake.

So, even though the majority of the community wants this and finds there's nothing "abusive" about it, you're denying it based on your own personal opinion?

pieguy1372 wrote:

whymeman wrote:

Just throwing this in... but isn't "Tick Rate 0" the same as not using a slider in its concept?

no, a slider gives a "hold" feeling while a circle doesn't...

Of course the slider has to be "held" to the end, but tickless slider is like just having two or so notes without something in the middle. Also, it would actually dumb the difficulty down for beatmaps set with no ticks (especially when there would be cases for not needing to do so) for the sliders since the player could just click the slider, take a sip of soda without holding the sliderball, then catch the cursor on the ball before it ends.

Also, it's better to think of the wider picture than to assume only for yourself "it won't get abused". If you only think for yourself in these kind of topics, it's only going to make it end badly with no conclusion. Got to think about why these things are being said and try to understand it.

Of course the slider has to be "held" to the end, but tickless slider is like just having two or so notes without something in the middle.

...No, not really I guess you don't understand what I mean by feeling.

Also, it would actually dumb the difficulty down for beatmaps set with no ticks (especially when there would be cases for not needing to do so) for the sliders since the player could just click the slider, take a sip of soda without holding the sliderball, then catch the cursor on the ball before it ends.

I already said that in most cases this isn't really a natural movement. Even in cases such as mm201's example, I've never actually seen an example of such a slider with tick rate 0.5. I assume it's because most of the people who use such a slider wouldn't use tick rate 0.5 anyway...

Also, it's better to think of the wider picture than to assume only for yourself "it won't get abused". If you only think for yourself in these kind of topics, it's only going to make it end badly with no conclusion. Got to think about why these things are being said and try to understand it.

...
I'm not thinking for myself here. I'm quite sure that the majority of the community feels that it won't be abused.

Also, you should think about why we're supporting tick rate 0.5 instead of just assuming that your way is the only one that makes sense.

pieguy1372 wrote:

Of course the slider has to be "held" to the end, but tickless slider is like just having two or so notes without something in the middle.

...No, not really I guess you don't understand what I mean by feeling..

Actually whyme is right, even tho you call it feeling, any player can just click the slider start and end if it has no ticks.

"Not trying to say that this way is 100% perfect, but if mappers don't try to adjust to changes when they need to, then it's only going to cause problems when their mapping style is becoming out of date."

Did you just forgot I said that? Also, another problem that may show up is the use of hold sliders on a beatmap. Since the tickrate would be already pretty low (using 0.5 with a not so fast BPM) , plus with a .5 BPM section combined with it, that would make the slider tickless for a longer period of time.

Actually whyme is right, even tho you call it feeling, any player can just click the slider start and end if it has no ticks.

That's not at all what I mean by feeling. It's a gameplay issue, and for examples like mm201's I agree (unless a tick really doesn't fit there), but in most cases it doesn't matter. In most cases, hitting once, letting go, and hitting again is more counterintuitive than just holding.

whymeman wrote:

"Not trying to say that this way is 100% perfect, but if mappers don't try to adjust to changes when they need to, then it's only going to cause problems when their mapping style is becoming out of date."

Except in this case, there's nothing wrong as is and you all are just forcing it. It causes a problem when the general idea of what makes a "good" map changes, not in cases like this.

Did you just forgot I said that? Also, another problem that may show up is the use of hold sliders on a beatmap. Since the tickrate would be already pretty low (using 0.5 with a not so fast BPM) , plus with a .5 BPM section combined with it, that would make the slider tickless for a longer period of time.

What's wrong with hold sliders? And timing sections don't even change the tick rate Even if they did, having ticks on a hold slider generally doesn't fit anyway.

pieguy1372 wrote:

What's wrong with hold sliders? And timing sections don't even change the tick rate Even if they did, having ticks on a hold slider generally doesn't fit anyway.

Don't bring that up here. It's already been discussed to death. Your feelings are the only thing getting in the way.

whymeman wrote:

"Not trying to say that this way is 100% perfect, but if mappers don't try to adjust to changes when they need to, then it's only going to cause problems when their mapping style is becoming out of date."

2009 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9538
2011 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24949

No changes at all, both maps are almost the same. Don't say something you have no idea about.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually whyme is right, even tho you call it feeling, any player can just click the slider start and end if it has no ticks.

Actually no, he isn't. Haven't seen anyone doing that during my stay on osu.

I hate when people who don't play or map talk for others like they know something. All your "this would cause" "players gonna abuse" is the most retarded reason. Especially when a person isn't really good in mapping or playing.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually whyme is right, even tho you call it feeling, any player can just click the slider start and end if it has no ticks.

They could, but they probably wont. Even now I can play a slider by just clicking the start, ticks, and ends, then not clicking on the other parts. Any other player can do that too. Do they? Nope. Why? Because it's easier to actually follow the path, as the sliders are probably adding to the flow of the cursormovement

I've hit so many hold sliders, moved off the track, realized it's a hold slider, go back on it, and get a 300.

Same thing with tick 0 long sliders.

it's only going to cause problems when their mapping style is becoming out of date.

1. I hope some of you guys could know a bit more of current mapping, about what people likes, and, about "what's a good map"
2. I hope rules are made to serve players or say the majority of the community, give them what they really like, not "accept it or get fucked"
3. I hope maps could develop faster than rules, but it becomes impossible if you can't follow ^

It's shit like this when people who push silly rules are usually the ones who are least experienced

whymeman wrote:

Got to think about why these things are being said and try to understand it.

That's what you never do, dude. Whenever someone is trying to make a point, you always sart your "Stop being childish" and "think about it" shit whitout ever listening to anyone.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually whyme is right, even tho you call it feeling, any player can just click the slider start and end if it has no ticks.

This is why we can't have nice things!!!!

Like the other said, you're both wrong. If you think a tickless slider is basically just two notes with something in the middle then I know for a fact you two don't even play this game. Much more feeling goes into it than that when actually playing the map.

NatsumeRin wrote:

1. I hope some of you guys could know a bit more of current mapping, about what people likes, and, about "what's a good map"

There's no accounting for taste.

I think it's a good idea to encourage people to use 1.0 tick rate, and the easiest way to do that is to disable 0.5 in the editor. You can't remove 0.5 tick rate from osu, and I bet anyone good enough to make a map with 0.5 or 0 tick rate knows exactly how to do this, and knows how to do it well or else they wouldn't want to use 0.5 tick rate.

I think you wont be able to hax it either, because it will read it as 1.0 whenever it's below 1.0

The only problem I see with tick 0 is that reading speedups or slowdowns gets harder to read. I don't know about others, but I do look at ticks while playing (maybe that's why I'm not that good at this game). This could bring the "sightreading" thing much further into grey area than it already is imo. Just my 2c.

This is starting to turn into another fight than a debate....

Bashing at other people's styles and saying your own is "perfect" isn't going to get anywhere at all. Opinions won't be heard if you're only going to attack people about the issue than to discuss it. Besides that, there are times when you don't actually need a .5 tick rate if you don't double the BPM or could try reducing it by half to where it equalizes with the main beats.

Also, try to debate on the reasons why you feel it is or is not a good idea.

low tick rate can be abused in many ways:
- Unreadable slider speed changes (not really but whatever)
- Not needing to follow the sliderball (mm201's examples are good enough)
- Lowering combo for the sake of lowering score to go into ranking instead of approval.

Now im gonna leave one thing i said some time ago.
"Even tho there are mapping techniques that are unrankable in 100% of the cases, no mapping technique is rankable in 100% of the cases" <- Anything you use, if you dont use it right, doesnt fit, will get your bubble popped, map unranked, whatever, but that also means, that no matter what, anything we allow has abuse potential, it doesn't matter, which is why modders and Staff are here to control the abuse of mapping techniques in beatmaps.
@NatsumeRin: Good maps? Good mappers? it's all opinion and subjective.

Imo, rules should only restrict mapping to a point when something could potentially break the game, or be outright unplayable (like overlapping objects on the timeline), i dont even know why are we fighting over this, it is silly and makes no sense, we should just come to an agreement that favors everyone...

All I can do right now is facepalm. Facepalm so hard my face hurts.

Wait what,

Sakura Hana wrote:

low tick rate can be abused in many ways:
- Not needing to follow the sliderball (mm201's examples are good enough)

How is this an abuse? I can go play any map and not follow the slider ball, the poot are you talking about?

Sakura Hana wrote:

Now im gonna leave one thing i said some time ago.
"Even tho there are mapping techniques that are unrankable in 100% of the cases, no mapping technique is rankable in 100% of the cases" <- Anything you use, if you dont use it right, doesnt fit, will get your bubble popped, map unranked, whatever, but that also means, that no matter what, anything we allow has abuse potential, it doesn't matter, which is why modders and Staff are here to control the abuse of mapping techniques in beatmaps.
@NatsumeRin: Good maps? Good mappers? it's all opinion and subjective.

You're saying stuff is subjective while also stating that something in mapping doesn't fit or isn't used right, isn't it also subjective? There's clearly stuff that interferes with gameplay, like hidden notes or wrong timing and there's also stuff that doesn't hurt anyone but a bunch of cryheads who don't take time to neither map nor play the game enough to understand it fully. Anything you allow has abuse potential? Oh really? Why not ban everything then so that nothing is abused? This can be abused, that can be abused, this is not a very good reasoning.

Control the abuse of mapping techniques in beatmaps
the abuse of mapping techniques in beatmaps
abuse of mapping techniques in beatmaps
abuse of mapping techniques

WHAT

It's just like you're creating a bunch of rules all for the same reason: "preventing abusing" -> means you just need to prevent people mapping imho.
Mapping itself it's just like abusing the game concept to create maps that are funny to play, and a game meant to be fun more than other things, as it won't be a game if it wasn't fun.

This type of songs surely need multiple tick rates

However it's getting nowhere: Doubling BPM is quitely needed in the cases there are harder timings, because more ticks just make you approximate more the various sounds, there are cases in which is impossible to get the true timing.
As so i think Tick rate 0.5 at least need to be reimplemented.

Then plz, why Tick Rate is an objective thing? there're people (in fact, probably the majority) agree it's useful, then it got rejected because of "i can't agree with any examples provided". Why we should all share the same feeling here when mapping itself is a subjective thing?

And, if it IS subjective, i don't think the words "just you need to adjust to fit it" is fine. Because when we meet a problem, a subjective one, the best way to deal with is leave it there and see how it changes, right?

To prevent abuse.... it's probably not a good reason as said before.

NR, natteke, and haku have convinced me. Leave it in. I still think they should just osuhax (or change bpm) it in since peppy made an executive decision about it, but I support the option to have tick rate 0.5 and 0. I haven't seen any map that should use it yet, but that should be left up to the mapper. BATs who disagree can just not rank the map.

Kyousogiga PV sounds great on tick rate 2 btw.

And misusing ( about secton-based tick rates too ) can just be found by many modders. If it has been misused, it mean it had not received that many mods and it's not ready for a rank.

The Kyousogiga PV sounds even better with section based Tick rates ( 4,2 and 1 )