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Let's talk Easy mod

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159
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +950
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Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
Seriously I don't understand why you quote just a part of the sentence saying it's wrong without reading my sentences to the end. Why do you want to make [Lunatic] easier? It's the same as if you have 100 $ and want to buy an icecream that costs 4$ but you pay 100$ without getting anything back. Or if you want to ride a bicycle and start with a pilot license.

If you can't play [Lunatic] then just don't play it. "Easy mode" suppose to make [Easy] even easier than they are so that players with less than 1 playcount can play them. For increasing difficulty there are other mods and difficulties. Play [Hard]. If it is too "easy" for you, use mods to increase the difficulty. If you claim liking the [Lunatic] only then what is the problem about it? If you say AP/HP/OD is bad then you obvious don't like the map or else you wouldn't complain.

ziin wrote:

Obviously, or we wouldn't be discussing an "easy" mod. But I thought you meant why would anyone play a map on easy with increased OD/CS/HP while getting less points? The answer is multiplayer. I usually don't play multiplayer with friends in particular, and nobody wants to download a new unranked difficulty for a gimmick. It's tedious.
wtf? "easy mode" works only in 1 direction => making it easier. Easier means lower AR/OD/... and so on. Increasing something is called hardrock mode.

ziin wrote:

Presumably, when you click on "easy" it would bring up a gui where you can set the AR, OD, HP, and CS all in the mod screen.
You mean this screen? As far as I understood this should be want you expect for the "customizable" easy mode.

SPOILER

But it would only look like this because it is easy mode and not "change how you like mode". The easy mode itself should make it easier in general. If you have a map with for example AP 7 you can't raise it to 8 even with the "implemented" easy mode because that is not the purpose of the "easy" mode.

SPOILER


CXu wrote:

Also @Neruell: You're kinda focusing too much on scoring and whatnot. If someone finds it more enjoyable with a slightly different AR/OD, then let them find it more enjoyable instead of telling them to play something they might not find that fun.
Use editor, edit what you want and how you want and play for fun. That is my answer (did say that tons of times) for without ranking scores.

ziin wrote:

Again, multiplayer is easier to use mods, and using mods is much faster than the editor. If you use fullscreen it's even worse. Easy mode would also contribute to your total score, which I don't particularly think is a bad thing. Playing only unranked songs is like lying about your skill level.
Well, there is no system that is showing your skill level. Every ranking system that is now (Ranked Score, Playcount, Accuracy, Total score...) everything is farmable and not showing your true skill level. So you are already lying about it to everyone. In multiplayer if you see/ know that no one can pass the song you put on [insane] then put it on [hard] and everyone is happy and that is why there are more than just [insane] difficulties on the map. Compared to old maps that are 2-3 years old the new maps how tons of new rules and difficulties that are extra made for fluent play for any person for new players and pros so why not use it? Older maps can't be changed if you want to get a ranked score. Deal with it. For optimal customization you will need not easy mode but just a customizable mode that can change the map itself how you want. But this has nothing to do with "easy mode" itself which doesn't fit in this topic.


ziin wrote:

What the hell are you talking about?
I did reply on what you said lol.

ziin wrote:

What a terrible waste of a map.
There are tons of them out and ranked.

Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Lybydose

LuigiHann wrote:

It's a mod to make the easiest maps even easier so that brand new players can get used to hitting circles.
I realize this, but right now, a good number of "actually new to the game" players find faster approach rate easier; slowing it down hardly helps. I don't say "all players" though, because I'm sure some people are better with slower approach rate, that's why I say Easy mod should let you choose.

In addition, on actual easy maps the mod has little effect, since it simply cuts all the difficulty settings in half. Since easy map settings are already really low, cutting them in half doesn't do much (half of nothing is still nothing).

At the very least, the 3 life system needs to be revamped.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Make the new lives work instantaneously instead of interrupting the song and allow the player to choose his settings within a pre-defined margin.
I think it would work decently if you could choose AR freely and every other difficulty option could be lowered up to the point that it would normally be at with the current Easy Mod.
If a map had OD 8, you could choose to set it to anything from 4 to 8 with this mod, same for circle size and life drain.
So if for example you don't want to change your circle size because of stacking/pattern issues you don't have to.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Neruell wrote:

Seriously I don't understand why you quote just a part of the sentence saying it's wrong without reading my sentences to the end.
Why you assume I don't read your post is beyond me. I don't need to quote everything. I'm answering all your questions which apply and summarizing paragraphs.

Neruell wrote:

Why do you want to make [Lunatic] easier?
So I can beat it.

Neruell wrote:

"Easy mode" suppose to make [Easy] even easier than they are so that players with less than 1 playcount can play them.
The whole point of this thread is to change that so that it's easier for every map.

Neruell wrote:

Play [Hard]. If you say AP/HP/OD is bad then you obvious don't like the map or else you wouldn't complain.
What if there is no Hard, I like the song on a certain AP/HP/OD, and I want to play in multiplayer with those settings without having to upload anything?

Neruell wrote:

"easy mode" works only in 1 direction => making it easier. Easier means lower AR/OD/... and so on.
Decreasing AR makes the map harder most of the time. Increasing OD etc... would be stupid but not necessarily pointless. Hard rock makes the map harder by messing with all 4 values and a vertical flip. What if you only want to increase one value?

Neruell wrote:

You mean this screen? As far as I understood this should be want you expect for the "customizable" easy mode.
Hopefully something a little more polished than that.

Neruell wrote:

I did reply on what you said lol.

Neruell wrote:

You are willing to ask Peppy that he allows you and only you to "fix" all old maps and also you want to ask every person from today untill the ranking date of the song to retry the song because it was "slightly" improved?
I am asking peppy to make Easy mod let the player define AR, OD, CS, HP. Nothing in that request specified me fixing anything or requires every person to retry a song after ranking. What the hell are you talking about?

Neruell wrote:

There are tons of them out and ranked.
There's one.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

ziin wrote:

Neruell wrote:

Seriously I don't understand why you quote just a part of the sentence saying it's wrong without reading my sentences to the end.
Why you assume I don't read your post is beyond me. I don't need to quote everything. I'm answering all your questions which apply and summarizing paragraphs.

ziin wrote:

Neruell wrote:

Why do you want to make [Lunatic] easier? If you can't play [Lunatic] then just don't play it. Play [Hard]
So I can beat it.
If you can't beat [Lunatic] play [Hard]. Can't play [Hard] play [Normal]. Can't play [Normal] play [Easy]. Can't play [Easy] (HERE IT COMES) use [Easy] WITH "easy mode". Can't do that, quit Osu!. That is a normal logic a normal player would use to play any game not just Osu!. You don't start a game (any game not just Osu!) on insane and then blame it for being too hard or too unbalanced.

That and ONLY that is the purpose of "easy mode" (It is not made for passing over 9000 bpm songs with DT and then getting fame for passing it with "easy mode"). The problem is, it almost changes nothing on [Easy] which makes it almost useless for new players it does even worse with the life refilling because it brings you out of concept especially the new players.

You talk about changing easy mode into "change the beatmap how I like" mode. It has nothing to do with the "easy mode" itself. If you do want a mode that can do so, then do a request for a new mode.

ziin wrote:

What if there is no Hard, I like the song on a certain AP/HP/OD, and I want to play in multiplayer with those settings without having to upload anything?
Play [Normal]. Be sure to use mods to make it harder.

ziin wrote:

The whole point of this thread is to change that so that it's easier for every map.
You simply can't do it. It's the same as to say, make DT vary from difficulty. [Easy] is way too slow with DT but [Insane] is sometimes way too fast. Also optimise HR and FL for every map.... That's why no one forces you to use the mods provided. You can set it up as much as you like by choosing different difficulties and using mods.

ziin wrote:

Decreasing AR makes the map harder most of the time. Increasing OD etc... would be stupid but not necessarily pointless. Hard rock makes the map harder by messing with all 4 values and a vertical flip. What if you only want to increase one value?
Suggest a request for a new mode then.

ziin wrote:

There's one.
What about it? People pass this with Halftime to 100% because it has 228 bpm and it is a pretty hard map and Cookiezi has FC with HD. So?... TTTL passed it on [Hard] (Lethal) with DT.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Neruell wrote:

If you can't play [Lunatic] then just don't play it. Play [Hard]
No. And as I said before, hard might not exist. I want to beat lunatic. I can beat lunatic if the AR/difficulty is changed slightly. I won't get top 40 because there's a 0.5x penalty.

Neruell wrote:

Play [Normal]. Be sure to use mods to make it harder.
Don't be dense.

Neruell wrote:

You simply can't do it.
How does Ozzy's suggestion not do it?

Neruell wrote:

You can set it up as much as you like by choosing different difficulties and using mods.
You most certainly can not set it up as much as you like. Otherwise I wouldn't be for more customization.
gat1toneku
608 posts
Joined May 2010
gat1toneku

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

I remember giving my opinion about this in a previous thread and i suggested something like this:

HP Drain: -3 or -4 (+removing the restore health thing)
Circle Size: +1 (maybe?)
Approach Rate : -1 (or maybe no modifications at all)
Overall Difficulty -2.

I thought this would be a layout that could work for hard and Insane maps, the only ones that actually may need the use of a Easy mod (Is there someone who would apply Easy mod to a 1 Star Easy map?). But i still can't think of a Multiplier for it.

Anyway this was a suggestion i made some time ago and i honestly don't think it's the best one.
The only reason i kept it that simple was to avoid having to reinvent the whole mod, but I will give my support if i see/find some good ideas here.
yeah it should be changed to something like this
also, easy mod is supposed to be the opposite of hard rock
since hard rock gives +2 to everything save circle size
why not make easy mod give -2 to everything and -1 to circle size?
Waryas
Waryas
hardrock is *1.4 and not +2 according to Lybydose.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Topic Starter
Lybydose
hardrock is *1.4
caps at 10

You can see this by putting hardrock on an AR7 map and comparing the speed to an AR10 map (without hardrock). You'll see they are almost the same, but the hardrock will be slightly slower.

7 * 1.4 = 9.8

You can compare by editing a map to AR7 and flipping a map for hardrock, then unflipping it and setting AR10. Take screenshots at the exact same time location and directly compare them. The closer the approach circle is for the next few notes, the slower the approach rate is. Alternatively, you can just believe me, and I can provide screenshots if you really want.

You can also edit circle sizes in the same manner; you will notice that circle size 4 + HR is a bit smaller than circle size 5.

@Shiirn: It doesn't round down, at least not for standard mode. AR7 + HR is definitely faster than AR9.

Also

Circle 4 + HR http://puu.sh/36Hg
Circle 5 (flipped the notes) http://puu.sh/36Hi

Compare them and you can see Circle 4 + HR is slightly smaller.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

JesusYamato wrote:

hardrock is *1.4 and not +2 according to Lybydose.
This. It multiplies by 1.4 and rounds down, as well. It caps out at 10 and 0 - and 0 is a case in which it will not change it at all since 0x1.4 is 0.
gat1toneku
608 posts
Joined May 2010
gat1toneku
holy shit so that explains why AR7 HR is so much faster than AR9
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
Yay Screenshots
Power of EasyMod yo
Gomo Psivarh
584 posts
Joined December 2009
Gomo Psivarh

Lybydose wrote:

hardrock is *1.4
caps at 10
Is OD*1.4 too with hardrock?
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
Power of Easy Mod 2
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Gomo Psivarh wrote:

Lybydose wrote:

hardrock is *1.4
caps at 10
Is OD*1.4 too with hardrock?
Everything except circle size *1.4, i believe.
A_Good_Man
44 posts
Joined September 2010
A_Good_Man
yap
totally agreed
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

OzzyOzrock wrote:

EasyMod should let you choose the diff settings. That's it.
Thisthisthisthis!
Suimya
6,374 posts
Joined February 2011
Suimya
and i support this but not to make us lose acc that will be suck D:
Ekoro
3,456 posts
Joined March 2010
Ekoro
Well support , Easy mode is hard to read yeah (even if i can read sometimes xD) , and sometimes it's impossible on overlaps for examples.

Makar8000 wrote:

OzzyOzrock wrote:

EasyMod should let you choose the diff settings. That's it.
Thisthisthisthis!
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
Yeah in Osu Standards it is harder than all diff mods together sometimes
BUT
It really helps in CtB :D
(I play all three Play mods)

So I would disagree with removing it ...
but in Osu! Standards :?
Idk maybe making it a Double mod so it is still in the easy category and in the hard category but without 3 Life Bars and Increasing Points ...
We can call it Giant mod :P (nah just kidding)

Yeah and I bump this thread :P
Espionage724
876 posts
Joined August 2011
Espionage724
I find Easy mode to be a challenge as well. Half-time is better imo.

I think Easy mode should just lower HP drain. That alone might be pretty helpful :p
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley

Lybydose wrote:

4) Something else?!
Rename "EasyMode" to "EasierMode". The new name shouldn't be misleading since it's just certain part that is made easy, right? :P

I still agree that the approach rate is the main complaint here though.
palion
172 posts
Joined October 2011
palion
agreed, "easy" is not easy at all
My1_old
372 posts
Joined August 2011
My1_old
@ the 3 live system I think that we rewind maybe 10 seconds and tart playing from there (unrated until the next life actually starts) so you have a "flowing" start if you know what I mean...
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
Necropost.

osz2 is around the corner and a fix for this Easy Mod would be good.

this is what I think

I really want people to consider the current Easy mod not perfect and that it could be so much better.
My1_old
372 posts
Joined August 2011
My1_old
what do you mean osz2 is around the corner?
did I miss anything???
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

My1 wrote:

what do you mean osz2 is around the corner?
did I miss anything???
I'm guessing it won't take too long before it's here. Can't be more than a year.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
strange thing is that "Easy" make things harder.
Especially AR IS selected to make the map playable .... so yeah changing the divisor (option 2) seems a good idea
Mitsuneko
325 posts
Joined July 2011
Mitsuneko
The Easy mod is annoying >_> Why does the circle size have to be so large? It makes it harder for me to see what the hell I'm doing.
So, I'll support this.
Aoko
1,053 posts
Joined June 2011
Aoko
Ok ok, support this ;)
XK2238
2,066 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

strange thing is that "Easy" make things harder.
Especially AR IS selected to make the map playable .... so yeah changing the divisor (option 2) seems a good idea
How about reducing the AR by only 1 or 2 points? (i.e. AR 10 -> 9 or 8)
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
I still think ARs is something people should be able to pick by their own.

OD, HP drain rate and Circle size, they makes stuff easier/harder.
Last edited by theowest , edited 1 time in total.
benguin
277 posts
Joined January 2012
benguin
I agree with having the easy mod being changed as well, considering it makes most maps unplayable.

What I'd like to see for the easy mod:
1) The user is able to select their own AR, rather it be lower or higher. Each person has an approach rate that they perform best on so it would be wise to let the easy mod allow the user to choose their own.
2) Allow the user to choose the circle size. The range of values would range from the default circle size to the circle size seen in the flawed default easy mod for the same map. The reason being is sometimes the size of the hitcircles just become way too obnoxious because of overlap. Setting the max selectable circle size to whatever is used by the current easy mod is for the purposes of previous scores obtained on the easy mod.
3) OD and HP drain rate should be multiplied by some constant
4) The 3 lives thing should be instantaneous as opposed to a sudden stop and restart.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

theowest wrote:

My1 wrote:

what do you mean osz2 is around the corner?
did I miss anything???
I'm guessing it won't take too long before it's here. Can't be more than a year.
ETA is as vague as it ever was. It'll still take a long time, so don't hold your breath.

I already told you what I thought about this and LuigiHann conveyed my thoughts pretty effectively. The mod should be aimed at new players of easy maps and that should be it. All of this discussion of customisable parameters suggests that they should be separate options.

Harder maps are designed with a specific approach rate and circle size in mind, so any changes to these would probably break the maps, be it visually or in playability. Besides, how do you think a new player would react if choosing the Easy mod spat a load of options at them? They would shit themselves. It would be much more productive for them to look in the editor or use Half Time. There is no need to overcomplicate this.

In short, Easy wouldn't benefit from any serious overhauls. At most, a slight reduction of all parameters automatically would be the best choice, but that should be it. Keep the knob twiddling away from something that's supposed to make things simple for newbies.
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

D33d wrote:

They would shit themselves.
That's a pretty apt description of my response to trying Easy on my first day. I would have loved to see controls... that would have (a) helped and (b) not required trying to figure out the editor on my first day in order to tweak things (I had a good idea what I wanted... Easy just gave way too much of everything). I pretty much warn newbies to avoid Easy, as it's pretty much worthless for newbies... every reasonable use of it I've seen has been by experienced players.
My1_old
372 posts
Joined August 2011
My1_old
but as we all know everyone complains about easy in osu!standard but in CtB(Iant control dashing) or taiko(where I really suck) it makes some Hard to play maps really playable sometimes I even get A or S in an insane Map...
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
Support~ Would be nice if things were user-definable
Devochka_old
Devochka_old

Lybydose wrote:

2) Rework Easy mod to actually make things easier. How about letting the player choose their approach rate when Easy is enabled? How about dividing all the difficulty settings by 1.4 instead of 2.0 so it isn't such a massive change, or maybe just subtracting a static number? Reworking the "3 life system" so that the song backs up a couple sections so the player can get back "into the beat" when they resume?
3) Make the current Easy mode a difficulty increasing mod with a score multiplier (lol). It would certainly be harder than Hard Rock, Hidden, and even Flashlight on a lot of maps.
I like these ideas so much! User definable AR with easy mod would make sense, though maybe it should be added as "New Easy mod" to maintain the old scores, and maybe increase the bonus depending on how hard the map is. (like when there are a lot of patterns increase bonus, when there are a few, decrease(not sure if possible))
Suimya
6,374 posts
Joined February 2011
Suimya

Makar wrote:

Support~ Would be nice if things were user-definable
My1_old
372 posts
Joined August 2011
My1_old
oh yes
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