RIOT (Cut Ver.)

done

here we go again

Could discuss before veteoing instanly tbh and give proper feedback to mapper how to fix the veto instead of saying only change angles or spacing because they are not part of the following rhythms

what is there to discuss? what is there to suggest? everything but the rhythm is following nothing, i can't give you suggestions that would fix that

wait i didnt mean to resolv

a

1446290#2554012/6983745 friendly reminder that stuff like this is better to veto for and discuss after as to avoid whatever happened on rakata :)

should discuss what ur concern with it "not following the song" actually is as i and others can tell pretty easily ?

Ya bro u kinda trolling without mentioning What the actual issue or w/ out providing examples and solutions

Ur current suggestion seems gunga'd and doesn't rlly help mapper identify wat the Issues are or How to fix them

for the record I kinda agree with Akito

from what I got out of this he is concerned abt emphasis(?)

elaborate?

K I will look at all of this later today

just dm akito about this if u need more concrete examples on how to change this cuz hes asleep rn

stario, just go mediation since this veto will be taken back in a day or two like wafer did 2 weeks ago

what did you not understand about not posting abt stuff that dont contribute anything to the discussion, sure you can go to mediation but better to discuss it with the vetoer before that

here's some noncircular flow in that section you mentioned (even though it's not a problem, especially in this short of a map) 00:07:174 (4,5,6,1) - 00:13:702 (4,1,2,3,1) -

anyways, don't care to argue and butt heads, just send it to mediation

can we stop with vetoes that are basically just “don’t do generic mapping”

what implies it was "against generic mapping" though o_O

cuz akito said too much circular flow = bad, which is mapper's choice of what represents the song the best, but akito disagrees hence the veto, which is fair.

Also een, wish I could say more but akito didn't explain anything in his post so im kinda lost

as a veto, or even a modpost coming from a BN, I don't think this has enough substance to really work to be honest
a lot of people here don't even really understand what you're on about within this map's context (me included)
make a real post before continuing discourse or moving on to mediation

i agree 100% with Akito. And not because hes apart of the mappers guild. But because he is right :D

ok more concrete things,

main issue is that everything is expressed the exact same way, leaving the map extremely bland, and it does not really feel like anything is represented very meaningfully. the patterns with 1/4 rhythms are all fine since they obviously have to be mapped differently, but this applies to pretty much everything else in those sections.

i'll point out my issues for the top diff, my concerns with the expert are basically the same and i don't really want to make the same points twice (i also have a feeling the timestamps might fit either difficulty anyway)

spacing wise, everything feels like its spaced almost the exact same, so almost nothing feels emphasised through spacing. some of the most intense parts of the chorus like 00:39:972 (1,2,3,4) -, 00:49:920 (1,2,3,4) - don't feel any different from any other pattern in the section since its mapped with the same spacing and easy rhythms. angle wise, almost everything is the equally spaced sharp angle which all play the same so there is also almost no contrast again.

for the circular flow thing, changing every measure or two is not inherently incorrect, but it doesn't really do much to express the song either. handling it this way doesnt really help to represent anything other than the structure of the song which is the exact same as 99% of other osu songs.

all of the above combined make the map extremely monotonous. examples:
00:36:552 (2) - 00:39:039 (2) - 00:46:500 (2) - are stronger vocals, and they feel meaningless thrown into the middle of some jump pattern where every other circle is played the same, especially when you have patterns on weaker vocals like 00:35:775 (4,5,6) - 00:38:262 (3,4) - also mapped as jumps. even if you're focused on drums, the drums on all of these are the same kicks so you can emphasise other layers of the song at the same time. distorted(?) vocals liek 00:39:350 (4,5,6) - 00:49:298 (4,5,6) - are also mapped in the same way as anything else, unless they have triples on them. the only thing that actually gives contrast to different vocals are how there are 1/1 sliders on the downbeat vocal + finish places (00:37:485 (1) - , 00:39:972 (1) - ) which is just a consequence of them being 1/1 sliders since the movement into them or out of them are also the same as anything else in the map.

00:35:464 (3) - 00:36:086 (6) - 00:36:708 (3) - 00:37:951 (2) - 00:38:573 (5) - judging based on the rhythm, it feels like snares are being prioritised in the map to some degree, yet they're all also mapped as some part of a sharp angle jump pattern, like any other sound in the song so they dont really get any emphasis either. like compared to the kicks that come before them like 00:35:775 (4,5) - 00:36:397 (1,2) - , 00:38:262 (3,4) - how do they feel any different? because half of them are on sliderheads? what about any aspect of mapping other than rhythm?

basically the same thing for the intro, strongest notes in the melody 00:13:702 (4,1,2,3) - don't feel any different from anything else just some comfortable slider movement. or if you take the two measures from 00:07:796 - , 00:08:884 (1,2) - higher pitched + feels more intense compared to 00:07:796 (1,2,3) - , but they play the exact same. none of the stronger notes in the melody feel any different to anything else so they feel underrepresented

drumming wise, 00:05:619 - 00:06:241 - 00:06:863 - 00:07:485 - 00:08:107 - 00:08:728 - 00:11:215 - how do any of the snares stand out from kicks like 00:05:930 - 00:07:796 - 00:10:904 - or places with nothing like 00:06:086 - 00:07:640 - 00:11:060 - ? or how do the kicks differ from the snares?

for rhythms that are focused pretty heavily on drums, i feel like the placements don't really reflect that very well, nor do they reflect notable parts of the melody

of course i am not saying you need to follow songs sound for sound, i don't think that's how people experience music. i just think you could do a little more than using the same angles same spacing same cursor spinning for entire sections since that doesn't really represent anything. i don't think i can make any suggestions that wouldn't need the map to be significantly changed since it's a section wide thing, not just whatever timestamps i posted.

also i see the mapper is new, sorry for bringing drama to your map. i don't think there was any reason for prior discussion over something like this anyway, but sorry if that made it seem aggressive

didn't think i'd have to type this much and i didnt want to, but i expected people to extract more than "this guy hates circular flow" out of my post

i can get behind the spacing stuff, 00:40:438 (2,3,4) - 00:50:386 (2,3) - 00:30:801 (3,3) - in particular i feel like these could actually be jumps rather than the sliders they are currently considering the drum's emphasis during these parts (top diff, dunno if this applies to expert diff)

everything else feels...kinda unnecessary imo?

i somewhat said this already on the other veto, but i don't think only using sharp angled jumps is a bad thing; you say "it all plays the same", but there are very distinct sections of the map that pretty clearly do not play the same (stuff like 00:37:485 (1,2,3,4,5) - this plays much different than a general jump pattern such as 00:38:884 (1,2,3,4) - this, just as an example)

the rest of the mod just feels like a "tl;dr you should emphasize kicks and snares differently" which doesn't make much sense at all considering they're both intense drum rhythms, what's done currently works fine imo :s

agree with the point about 00:39:972 (1,2,3,4) - , obvious increase in intensity in the song yet the map gets easier

point about strong vocals being underrepresented don't totally agree, the vocals are marginally more intense - if anything, i agree with "throwing vocals in random jump patterns" being a poor decision but also not one i'd be adamant on having to change

agree that 00:39:350 (4,5,6) - could be mapped differently, say 2 1/2 sliders, but it would make the kiai overall less intense so there are pros and cons to this

the point about kicks/snares being emphasized differently - i mainly think this is a core issue behind maps like these always using hilariously low sv relative to the spacing, causing a huge disconnect between jumps and sliders. sliderends end up feeling extremely weak because they require absolutely no movement and are therefore the equivalent of not being mapped at all. so yes, i agree that intensity is all over the place, but it's rather a combination of forcing low sv while also not paying attention to when you're using those sliders

agree with 00:13:702 (4,1,2,3) - lacking emphasis. visuals do a minimal job here, but they play identical to the previous patterns

Okay, I think it's apparent that I was going for a more general intensity between the sections rather than specifically reflecting individual sounds. Some expectations for very clearly more intense portions. The sections I'm talking about are 00:00:335 - 00:05:153 - 00:15:568 - 00:20:231 - 00:25:205 - 00:30:179 - 00:34:998 - and 00:52:407 -

I don't see why sharp angle jumps the way I used them are inherently wrong, nor the circular flow pattern I used

I disagree that the strong vocals and weaker vocals are represented too similarly. Strong vocals in the kiai section to me sound just as intense as the snares that are in these jump patterns. Jump patterns in the kiai follow this pretty consistent pattern of two strong vocals and a snare, Ex. 00:35:775 (4,5,6) - 00:38:262 (3,4,5) - 00:38:884 (1,2,3) - 00:46:345 (1,2,3) - Which I felt called for pretty similar spacing. Also the so-called stronger and weaker vocals you are referring to in the kiai sound almost identical to me, like you mentioned the downbeat vocals are all mapped as 1/1 sliders which is the only section where is hear any significant change to the intensity of the vocals.

Everything else in between sounds identical to me with the exception of the background vocals, which I did try to reflect when I felt there was nothing else. Ex 00:39:350 (4) - 00:49:298 (4) -

I will consider changing some parts related to emphasis, like fiery and uber said. But I can't really get behind much else right now.

Just gonna leave a quick reply here for now.

Things like 00:39:661 (5,6,1) - don't have spacing contrast, but you fail to see flow change emphasis here that reflects downbeat. 00:38:884 (1,2,3,4) - circular flow into 00:39:661 (5,6,1) - horizontal zig zag flow change.

Spacing isn't needed here in general either way IMO, but I'm limited on time rn so this is the best I can reply with for now.

Overall, I think the map is perfectly fine how it is and my opinion won't really change. Really liked this map the first time mapper requested it to me and how everything is emphasized and all, so probably we should mediate this.

Mediation time ;p

sure your sections contrast each other, im more concerned aobut what happens inside those sections

most of the examples i gave are not really things i care about on their own, my point was that with everything combined, it really doesn't feel like there isnt much emphasis placed on anything. drum pattern wasn't very well represented, nor were the melodies or anything else. just feels like some map put with the song, rather than a map of the song

if you dont see anything wrong, ive tried my best to explain it, just try to think about it more holistically maybe rather than each timestamp on its own. otherwise i dont really see any reason to continue discussing this either so mediation sou nds fine

idk I fail to see any meaningful emphasis

mediation has begunnnnnnn

now that i wonder, since Akito got banned, does the veto still matter?

since mediation was already in effect when he got restricted, yes it does

I see thanks

#3052563

DISMISSED BTW

00:25:205

I feel u but i think these sounds don't really warrant a finish.

00:25:205 has a noticable crash sound tho, would be nice if you add finish to 00:20:231 for feedback

u could atleast include more stuff than just intro, verse, chorus and outro stuffed into barely a minute

im not quite the guy to tell something about cuts but i dont think mapper is even going to consider "fixing" this

it would be better if he fixed this

doesn't have to

nah do sped up

its fine as long its fit the guideline wheres said "Cut songs should maintain the general impression and intensity of the full song. Cuts that change the structure of the full song (such as excluding or rearranging a song's intro/verse/chorus/outro) can lead to misrepresentation of it and often cause unsatisfying playing experiences. This does not apply to official cuts or recreations of official cuts."

in current audio we have all whats need to fit the guideline (intro,verse,chorus,outro) so i dont see a problem in this lol

this cut ver sounds ok, sounds like something you'd hear in an anime opening in terms of structure and listening experience

zzzz where did i say that its unrankable

considering that the cut is perfectly rankable there really was no reason to even mention it?

agreed with ermi

u guys literally started jumping at me? i just dont believe that rankable equals good cuz that cut is still awful while technically following the guidelines

also @Basen he defended it pretty well though? FuJu reasoned everything out well from his pov and from mine too???

Let's focus on the topic and not on whether or not people are passive agressive
also make substantial statements or remain silent plz

it wasn't even an actual suggestion, apo11o explain what the cut is ok

i brought it up cuz i remember that a people in the bn server agreed that the cut wasn't good a few months ago

if u dont like its not necessary to point this. even when this got disqualified cuz in 99% cases mapper even dont wanna do smth with mp3

@aakki it was not defended well at all, his original post simply said it was a "bad idea" and then said "include more stuff than just intro, verse, chorus and outro stuffed into barely a minute" which doesnt really provide justification as to why the cut is bad or how to fix it other than "map the full song" which clearly isnt the mappers intent

I think that mapper will decide by himself will he replace it or not. Since it's rankable and perfectly without any cons, mapper can reject this mod.

Personally I think the cut is fine for this kind of song as the chorus kinda starts a lot sooner than you would typically expect. This is basically one of those shorter anime OPs if you really think about it but I don't think it's a bad cut as I don't think the song has much more to offer for a cut.

See https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/818349#osu/1786960 for example (this song is pretty cute but it's rly short too)

agree with honne

anyone can post suggestions when maps are pending or qualified.. no need to go after who posted because they posted one. they never said it was unrankable and the mapper could consider it. you never know if you dont voice your concerns..

Ah, I’ll look at all this later.

@stario sorry for all the negative attention this got, i didnt mean to attack u in any way by making the suggestion. feel free to dm me about this or just resolve this cuz im not gonna force a change on u since i can agree that it is fine to rank it like that.

cut vers are all about the creative freedom of turning a full ver into the song you want to map but I guess it's not allowed anymore? cool.

it's got slow buildup at start, intense section, calm to buildup, long chorus, then ending, seems fine to me

sorry, can't agree that 1 min cuts are inherently bad if they represent most parts of the song

Ok this thread got kind of out of hand. It shouldn’t really come as a surprise that I’m not going to change the mp3, a full version already exists and nobody seems to claim that this cut is unrankable.

I've always wanted to ratio Stario

Ok

They’re comingggg

hi

Hi

Ye

Ye

Ye

Tbh overall hs kinda needs to be reworked, first off the thing about whistles, most sections don't include them but I think it would be extremely beneficial to the overall feedback if you whistled each section to it's most prominent melody, those being either guitar or vocals in this song.

Also things like this 00:44:023 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - aren't hs'd properly at all, missing every other hs on 1/4 stream despite prominent feedback in the song.
Similar thing here, missing 1/4 hs 00:14:878 - 00:41:614 - 00:41:925 - etc

00:30:500 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - definitely wanna use claps here, kicks are way too soft for what the song is doing here

00:32:676 - 00:33:142 - 00:33:609 - same, claps

okay will rework hitsounds after I respond to the other mods

Alright re worked the hit sounds with your suggestions in mind

yeah will rework hitsounds n all in a bit

ye

I cant even hear a difference

Nvm its more noticeable when hit sounding will adjust soon

Drum a dum dum

will add whistles shortly (maybe)

yep