I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
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osu! mapping - "Speedranking"
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There are people who don't map things just to get them ranked, but their map just don't get ranked.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
I think it is that people make friends | 搞基 to rank their maps, and they take priority so real mappers don't rank.
Yes. But for the time being, there are still people who put community first.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
Nice choice of words. iLold (for those who cannot read, this literally translates to 'engage in homosexual acts').[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:
搞基
community is a part of ranking i think that's should be okay but anything break the ballance would make things worse.
and about 搅基……that word have no gender limit...so girl could 搅基 with a boy =v= and also point to those spirits level ~
and about 搅基……that word have no gender limit...so girl could 搅基 with a boy =v= and also point to those spirits level ~
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
Fundamentally, it's a matter of principle. If a map is ranked within a week, then it's invariably going to receive a less diverse array of opinions and it isn't really fair that potential modders aren't given the time to do so. Furthermore, if there are controversial issues with a map, then it's probably better to wait for it to have more input. I think that there was an Andrea map, which used AR9 and several people took issue with it. However, it was pushed out of the door before people could complain about it (I think?).LKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
There's no use in pointing fingers and accusing those who want to discuss these things as being petulant and that they are merely lashing out. On the contrary, some of us actually want to discuss issues and make improvements within this place. Have you also considered that some of us have already put in a lot of effort into maps and are simply waiting patiently for them to be checked? This isn't a cry for attention--I'm just saying that discussion such as this should not detract from one's mapping.
Topic Starter
oh the ironyLKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
Topic Starter
I don't mean to point fingers myself, but it doesn't help if we're oblivious to the obvious. I stated this then, and I'll state this again. An effective measure to start to combat the issue is to remove the most prominent issue at hand, is it not?Inamaru wrote:
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
But what has me more curious is what these individuals have to say about what they do. I stepped up to the plate, so shouldn't they? There's always two sides to a story.
Honestly I don't care whos map will be unranked after a speedrank. Unrank is unrank.Inamaru wrote:
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
I also don't want to delete the whole speedrank stuff, since most of the cases it ends good, but if not ..... then there is a question. Why this map was rushed over the ranking process? I mean if actually some people is able to spend more time to mod it. Or a BAT who ranked it actually ask a few testplay before he/she rank it.
I think if we add a number of required testplay (4 for each diff), before (actual BAT ask around for a few) it gets ranked, most issues will disappear.
Of course this will only work if the actual tester will tell his/her opinion.
A different view of the real problem from mine (I had said it was a problem of modding quality), but one that I can agree with. How do we stop mappers from going through the ranking process quicker than others?Dangaard wrote:
Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
I don't have what I think would be a definite solution to this yet. I will share when I do. However, for the time being, I can throw out one suggestion:
- If you are a modder, prioritize mappers who have a smaller chance of getting other mods if you didn't mod his. For a crude example, if NatsumeRin and espiritur00 both ask for your mod, mod espiritur00's map first. Never heard of espiritur00? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
In a rather offensive language, we modders must learn to stop sucking prominent dicks and offer help to where it is valued more. Mappers who we know to speedrank will keep doing it. It is up to us the modders to put a stop to it by modding other maps first. Don't fall for the m4m. Put the community before yourself.
Utopian solution? Yes. Will it work? Hell yes.
As a slightly fairer means, I think that it would be best if frequent modders simply kept an eye out for newer mappers, while carrying on with their usual routine. ion the rare occasion that I mod, I am very particular about who I give the time of day, because I want to know that I'm advising people who might care about my opinion. As a result, I am simply doing what's comfortable. However, I am trying to bring myself to look at newer mappers, whom I could set off with basic advice.
Basically, let's try not to have it the other way, where modders would say, "I don't need to mod this person's map, because I know that others will!" I think like that far too much and I really shouldn't. If everybody did that, then we'd end up with more attention to maps which will probably take a lot longer to rank, while better maps sit there and marinade in their own juices.
Basically, let's try not to have it the other way, where modders would say, "I don't need to mod this person's map, because I know that others will!" I think like that far too much and I really shouldn't. If everybody did that, then we'd end up with more attention to maps which will probably take a lot longer to rank, while better maps sit there and marinade in their own juices.
I think it should be a rule for mappers to thoughtfully reply to every mod
otherwise your map is un-eligible for ranking
This would help mappers put more thought into a quality map, instead of thinking only about getting ranked.
I know I gave up on modding because my mods, that I spent a lot of time on, went completely ignored
I think it's probably the same for a lot of modders.
Something like that would probably increase the number of people willing to do good mods, and also increase the quality of beatmaps
I'm scared to do mods for random people just because a lot of times the mod is wasted on them.
I've seen this happen quite a bit in speedranking, so I don't think it is completely unrelated.
But it is definitely a huge problem in terms of bad ranking, and also the morale of the modding community as a whole.
This leads to most mods of being low quality (people who do lazy mods only for kd) and to none of the mods actually contributing anything useful to the map.
This happens a lot in speedranks - there are a bunch of crap mods, usually m4m - and this number of mods makes the map look ready for ranking.
I think it would be a nice idea to be able to flag people as lazy modders (and give them silences or temp bans from the modding queues forum if they get enough flags) - note there's a difference between lazy modders, bad modders and inexperienced modders. Bad modders and inexperienced modders are still more useful than lazy modders when giving their all (even if the mod is not that great).
I guess this turned into more of a rant about the state of modding, and not speed ranking, but I don't think it's completely unrelated to the discussion... a lot of bad speed ranks come from bad modding. It's a problem with the mindset of the community and the XAT, one that I think can possibly be changed by putting certain rules in place, encouraging people to try harder.
I think also a lot of people have this mindset that maps that are really boring, but completely readable and have no technical "flaws" are ready for ranking, while maps with more originality or complex patterns are shunned because they go outside of the norm. I think if these maps are intuitive, readable and most importantly, fun, they are already better than the boring "perfect" maps. And if they aren't perfect, then they deserve the mods to get them there. Most speedranks are boring maps - they are maps without technical flaws because they are so simple and linear, easy to create if you stick to a certain formula. These maps are good in that they increase the number of maps (and songs) available, but bad in that they aren't fun to play. I think these sort of speedranks DO fit a certain role, which isn't inherently bad (having more songs to play is never a bad thing!), but in turn they are causing a lot of problems with the community.
I hope that makes a bit of sense, I might be sort of rambling at this point. My thoughts.
otherwise your map is un-eligible for ranking
This would help mappers put more thought into a quality map, instead of thinking only about getting ranked.
I know I gave up on modding because my mods, that I spent a lot of time on, went completely ignored
I think it's probably the same for a lot of modders.
Something like that would probably increase the number of people willing to do good mods, and also increase the quality of beatmaps
I'm scared to do mods for random people just because a lot of times the mod is wasted on them.
I've seen this happen quite a bit in speedranking, so I don't think it is completely unrelated.
But it is definitely a huge problem in terms of bad ranking, and also the morale of the modding community as a whole.
This leads to most mods of being low quality (people who do lazy mods only for kd) and to none of the mods actually contributing anything useful to the map.
This happens a lot in speedranks - there are a bunch of crap mods, usually m4m - and this number of mods makes the map look ready for ranking.
I think it would be a nice idea to be able to flag people as lazy modders (and give them silences or temp bans from the modding queues forum if they get enough flags) - note there's a difference between lazy modders, bad modders and inexperienced modders. Bad modders and inexperienced modders are still more useful than lazy modders when giving their all (even if the mod is not that great).
I guess this turned into more of a rant about the state of modding, and not speed ranking, but I don't think it's completely unrelated to the discussion... a lot of bad speed ranks come from bad modding. It's a problem with the mindset of the community and the XAT, one that I think can possibly be changed by putting certain rules in place, encouraging people to try harder.
I think also a lot of people have this mindset that maps that are really boring, but completely readable and have no technical "flaws" are ready for ranking, while maps with more originality or complex patterns are shunned because they go outside of the norm. I think if these maps are intuitive, readable and most importantly, fun, they are already better than the boring "perfect" maps. And if they aren't perfect, then they deserve the mods to get them there. Most speedranks are boring maps - they are maps without technical flaws because they are so simple and linear, easy to create if you stick to a certain formula. These maps are good in that they increase the number of maps (and songs) available, but bad in that they aren't fun to play. I think these sort of speedranks DO fit a certain role, which isn't inherently bad (having more songs to play is never a bad thing!), but in turn they are causing a lot of problems with the community.
I hope that makes a bit of sense, I might be sort of rambling at this point. My thoughts.
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Well, the quality of the mod is up for you to decide, but I think you should at least reply to every mod and say what you did and didn't change, and if not, why. And maybe give more criticism of the mod, to help the modder out as well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Something like this would at least help modders grow, which would increase the quality of maps, and would also make many "arrogant" mappers more accepting of mods, likely decreasing the frequency of bad ranks/bad speed ranks.
off-topic
Let me talk off-topic about concerning of modding a bit (I am going to be back to the modding quality after ending of my post)
BATs should concern modding this kind of pending map
you see ? , rebubble from Andrea and it was rebubbled about 2 weeks ago and no other BATs come?
there are on the first page though but does any BATs take a look at it ?
You might say "oh this is popped for long time ago , it's just get rebubbled a few day ago so it will be looked like it's so long but not !"
I think you should care their effort more = =
again , this is from 2nd page in pending
tons of bubbled over 1 month - 2 month
(Also note that I say "you should concern , not you must". Even the map has fast ranked , I still don't care at all)
I guess this is the one of so many reasons why this topic has been started.
It's just a game so I don't care about upcoming ranked map much.
I see ranked map > I play, just that. I don't care how fast it is.
I'm not good and can't even involve in this big topic in the first place.
There is no solution here and this is not even related to the any modding quality subject that you have been discussing so far.
(Please note that I am on the neutral side) I don't support you dkun. but it makes sense right ?
I'm sorry to all of my BATs friend for being rude here, you might hate me because of this , my apologies here "orz
BATs should concern modding this kind of pending map
you see ? , rebubble from Andrea and it was rebubbled about 2 weeks ago and no other BATs come?
there are on the first page though but does any BATs take a look at it ?
You might say "oh this is popped for long time ago , it's just get rebubbled a few day ago so it will be looked like it's so long but not !"
I think you should care their effort more = =
again , this is from 2nd page in pending
tons of bubbled over 1 month - 2 month
(Also note that I say "you should concern , not you must". Even the map has fast ranked , I still don't care at all)
I guess this is the one of so many reasons why this topic has been started.
It's just a game so I don't care about upcoming ranked map much.
I see ranked map > I play, just that. I don't care how fast it is.
I'm not good and can't even involve in this big topic in the first place.
There is no solution here and this is not even related to the any modding quality subject that you have been discussing so far.
(Please note that I am on the neutral side) I don't support you dkun. but it makes sense right ?
I'm sorry to all of my BATs friend for being rude here, you might hate me because of this , my apologies here "orz
From Silynn's post
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
Frost, I had actually kust bumped two of those three maps to 23 since I was tired of seeing maos I put time into rotting on the bottom. they have relatively only been on the first page for a couple days. Not to discredit your general point, but that is the situation for those ones.
As for older bubbles, it does happen. Youll notice that these are also generally longer maps with many difficulties. If youre short on time but want to squeeze in a mod or two, its much easier to do the short maps as there is mich less possibility of finding errors which adds to the timetable, let alone the already higher initial time. Its already implied through common sense that slower songs and linger maps are going to be more difficult to get mods for, so it shouldnt really come to much of a surprise. When it comes to this point, the mapper really needs to step up and advertise their work. Even if everyone says no, youve at least broughy it to their attention. I know ive checked back on maps long after I had initialy refused to see if the mapper has continued to try to get mods despite the set back. That or if I do notice it in the bubble list i am more likely to pick it than a random map i know nothing about.
Sorta off topic, but I figure I may as well give a perspective. Sorry for the rambling format. Typing on phone, blahblah.
As for older bubbles, it does happen. Youll notice that these are also generally longer maps with many difficulties. If youre short on time but want to squeeze in a mod or two, its much easier to do the short maps as there is mich less possibility of finding errors which adds to the timetable, let alone the already higher initial time. Its already implied through common sense that slower songs and linger maps are going to be more difficult to get mods for, so it shouldnt really come to much of a surprise. When it comes to this point, the mapper really needs to step up and advertise their work. Even if everyone says no, youve at least broughy it to their attention. I know ive checked back on maps long after I had initialy refused to see if the mapper has continued to try to get mods despite the set back. That or if I do notice it in the bubble list i am more likely to pick it than a random map i know nothing about.
Sorta off topic, but I figure I may as well give a perspective. Sorry for the rambling format. Typing on phone, blahblah.
Ah, I'm glad this finally showed up. As I said before in this thread, there are people who are able to speak both English and their native language in pretty much every language here. They can help mappers who aren't very good at English. I will concede that, if your native language doesn't have any similarities with English (which is why learning English for French and German people is easy), it's a pretty tough language to handle. However, even if you write something like "my English is poor" in your signature, you're acknowledging that your level isn't good enough; it's also up to you to improve it. This is an English-speaking community after all, and we are ready to make efforts, but they have to come from both sides.Frostmourne wrote:
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
Reading through this thread, I've seen one major thing coming back: People don't mind speedranking if the map is "good". Unfortunately, either your definition of "good" relates to "rankable", or the standards for a good map have abnormally low. 99.9% of the time, speedranked maps have nothing special about them - like I said, they're rankable, but not good. This brings up another issue that's quite important to me, and people are trying to solve it, and it is getting better, but we're not quite there yet. It seems that people are satisfied with a map that has nothing "unrankable". And that's where I disagree because, you can still make a rankable, yet boring, uninteresting, and overall half-assed map. As people said before, quantity over quality. Is it really that great of a thing to have many maps ranked? People will think "oh yeah, I know this mapper, he's got lots of maps ranked". Wouldn't it be better if people thought "oh, I know this mapper, he made X map, that map was awesome"? Many people love Shinxyn as a mapper, despite him not having a great number of ranked maps. But that's only because some of his maps were great, and that's why people remember him.
A good map should be a map that stands out, that people want to play not because it gives them points (and possibly pp), but because it's fun and they enjoy playing it. To me, it should feature these elements:
- Readability.
The ability for the player to sightread the map without any problems. No map should require for any player to open the editor to understand how the map works. It has to be straightforward, and it has to make sense. - Flow.
This one is a bit of a pickle to explain. It's what makes the map that you're playing not feel like you're trying to keep up with it, but rather to feel like you're playing along with it. - Creativity.
Half of the map copypasted and flipped horizontally, vertically, etc. isn't creative. I'm not saying copypasting should never be used (it should be used) but you have to constantly come up with new patterns in your map. If you use the same techniques over and over, people are bound to get bored with it. - Consistency.
This is a rhythm game, after all. A map should be as accurate to the music/beat as possible. And it should be obvious for the player what part of the music is reproduced in the map. Hitsounds are your friends!
If you can make your map stand out, more power to you. Especially if you're unknown. Most people don't care who's mapping the map, especially if they don't know the mapper; if it's good, they will like it. Only these maps can be speedranked. Your other average mapset, with a substandard spread, uninteresting mapping and whatnot, despite being rankable, should go through a proper modding process in order for it to reach the level of these maps that stand out and deserve to be ranked.
A fast way to become a better mapper is, in fact, modding others map, and "talking" with the mappers of "why" he used that and this.Silynn wrote:
Well, the quality of the mod is up for you to decide, but I think you should at least reply to every mod and say what you did and didn't change, and if not, why. And maybe give more criticism of the mod, to help the modder out as well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Something like this would at least help modders grow, which would increase the quality of maps, and would also make many "arrogant" mappers more accepting of mods, likely decreasing the frequency of bad ranks/bad speed ranks.
I answer to mods I do and receive almost everytime and i can seem arrogant, you don't need a perfect english to explain most things, though. ( You need a decent english in some cases to make other understand your mods, though).
From Mr Color's post, it seems that we need to redefine what is "Rankable" is it just following the ranking criteria? or is it something else.
From the 4 points you mentioned, beside creativity all of them should be enforced (and if they arent then something's going very wrong in the ranking process), and creativity must be something like avoiding excessive copy/paste, as creativity doesn't mean that you use more or less copy/paste, it's mostly the ability to make something new out of your designs. I'd consider a mapper which all their maps feel exactly the same a lack of creativity, even if they don't use copy/pasting at all.
Ok that bit about creativity was a bit off-topic dont mind me XP
Imo, a map should be more than just rankable to be rankable... if that makes any sense.
From the 4 points you mentioned, beside creativity all of them should be enforced (and if they arent then something's going very wrong in the ranking process), and creativity must be something like avoiding excessive copy/paste, as creativity doesn't mean that you use more or less copy/paste, it's mostly the ability to make something new out of your designs. I'd consider a mapper which all their maps feel exactly the same a lack of creativity, even if they don't use copy/pasting at all.
Ok that bit about creativity was a bit off-topic dont mind me XP
Imo, a map should be more than just rankable to be rankable... if that makes any sense.
Making your map "rankable" is necessary. It is also unsufficient.
Rankable means your map doesn't have any unrankable issues, such as bad timing, wrong use of sliders, bad snapping, etc etc. But it isn't (if it is, it shouldn't be) enough for a map to be ranked.
Rankable means your map doesn't have any unrankable issues, such as bad timing, wrong use of sliders, bad snapping, etc etc. But it isn't (if it is, it shouldn't be) enough for a map to be ranked.
Exactly. Also, speedranking a map because it is super awesome never happened (or barely ever?), only because it is from X mapper.Mr Color wrote:
Reading through this thread, I've seen one major thing coming back: People don't mind speedranking if the map is "good". Unfortunately, either your definition of "good" relates to "rankable", or the standards for a good map have abnormally low. 99.9% of the time, speedranked maps have nothing special about them - like I said, they're rankable, but not good. This brings up another issue that's quite important to me, and people are trying to solve it, and it is getting better, but we're not quite there yet. It seems that people are satisfied with a map that has nothing "unrankable". And that's where I disagree because, you can still make a rankable, yet boring, uninteresting, and overall half-assed map. As people said before, quantity over quality. Is it really that great of a thing to have many maps ranked? People will think "oh yeah, I know this mapper, he's got lots of maps ranked". Wouldn't it be better if people thought "oh, I know this mapper, he made X map, that map was awesome"? Many people love Shinxyn as a mapper, despite him not having a great number of ranked maps. But that's only because some of his maps were great, and that's why people remember him.
But, I think speedranking is the reason of this lack of creativity, or call it quantity over quality. Everyone knows that half-assed maps, as you said, are much easier to mod and have way less "errors" (misplaced notes, etc) than maps in which the creator really made an effort. Well, in most of the cases. Also, creating a half-assed map with tons of copypasta and CTRL+H is way faster than anything else, am I right? Well, this could be called "speedmapping", in my opinion. Some mappers just create "meh" beatmaps like a pooting machine, and what a coincidence, they make this half assed maps and speedranks. I think it's all about speeding up things. Speedmapping boring maps leads to speedmodding, speedmodding leads to speedranking.
Well, that's my point of view.
Ah, I didn't think of that (as it's never really concerned me, so it slipped my mind), but it is a valid point. Although, if you can not convey your thoughts in the modders native language, I think it would be nice for everyone to at least put "yes" or "no" for everything on the mod. --and if you DO speak the modder's language, then make your reply more in-depth~Frostmourne wrote:
From Silynn's post
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
All I'm really trying to say though, is while a lot of a members of the XAT aren't doing their quality control job correctly (hence the number of unranks recently), I think there also should be a change in the mindset of a large portion of the community as well, for creating these low quality maps and also thinking those low quality maps are standard. There's a lot of things that can be changed around here to sort of remedy that, and I'm just throwing around a few ideas that may or not work.
After all, the best way to get change is to at least throw around alternatives - saying what's wrong with the system and not having a fix will not get you anywhere.
Sakura, there are many ranked map that doesn't have a good flow, neither a good consistency or a perfect readability, still.
But that's just that some people didn't point that out.
Speedranked maps are not bad maps, but neither excellent maps. So they should be ranked at the same speed of any other normal-quality map.
It's like a troll for peoples who "try" to make a good map.
I know the whole "when you map you SHOULDN'T think of rank, but to map the best map ever" and peoples really want to have a rank, before making a good map(Example, how Andrea in the start was angry with Inamaru).
But that's just that some people didn't point that out.
Speedranked maps are not bad maps, but neither excellent maps. So they should be ranked at the same speed of any other normal-quality map.
It's like a troll for peoples who "try" to make a good map.
I know the whole "when you map you SHOULDN'T think of rank, but to map the best map ever" and peoples really want to have a rank, before making a good map(Example, how Andrea in the start was angry with Inamaru).
er...out of topic again?
anyway....imo, mapping is art, so the deadline is ranking rules, anything doesn't touch the line should be accepted. Maybe they're not good enough, but we can't say that's "unrankable".
Sometimes i would use an example to describe: Like food --- everybody know what is unsavory, but each person has special flavor. We cant say fried chicken is worse than chinese chilly food because that is individuality.
i know it's very very hard to distinguish....that's why we need modder/MAT/BAT, why we need SR-bubble-rank system. What i expect is this system could be on its original purpose, but not abuse. that's all.
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
anyway....imo, mapping is art, so the deadline is ranking rules, anything doesn't touch the line should be accepted. Maybe they're not good enough, but we can't say that's "unrankable".
Sometimes i would use an example to describe: Like food --- everybody know what is unsavory, but each person has special flavor. We cant say fried chicken is worse than chinese chilly food because that is individuality.
i know it's very very hard to distinguish....that's why we need modder/MAT/BAT, why we need SR-bubble-rank system. What i expect is this system could be on its original purpose, but not abuse. that's all.
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
I said what's the problem in the post.Scorpiour wrote:
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
i can understand your mood...believe me.....and please forgive me if i didn't present my perspective well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I said what's the problem in the post.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
in some degrees, it's really really unfair to those mappers who spend a lot of in mapping, but we cannot say this is someone's wrong....this problem comes from the whole system...
"if.." the BAT simply stopped to accept to rank someone young map(<1-2 weeks) simply because they beg them.
A lot of the problem here is not just that these maps are getting ranked quickly - it's that a lot of them are being unranked after being ranked quickly.Scorpiour wrote:
i can understand your mood...believe me.....and please forgive me if i didn't present my perspective well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I said what's the problem in the post.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
in some degrees, it's really really unfair to those mappers who spend a lot of in mapping, but we cannot say this is someone's wrong....this problem comes from the whole system...
One thing we could do is require a certain amount of XATs to play/approve the map before it is ranked IF it is under 2 weeks old. This means there are multiple expert opinions put into the map, regardless of who modded it beforehand. It would not be the responsibility of the mapper to gather multiple XATs, it would be the BAT who wants to rank the map. This gives the mapper a decision to make. They could do one of the following:
-Attempt to get their map ranked early, having faith that their map is good enough without the extra mods.
-Spend some more time to attract more mods to make sure their map gets ranked when they pitch it to a BAT.
The first option is a harder rank because multiple XATs need to give the OK, and it really doesn't work unless it actually DESERVES to be speedranked. If it goes through multiple XATs to get ranked, it shouldn't have an unrankable flaw. The second option (The traditional method) is easier because you get more quality mods, and your map only needs to pass by 1 BAT to get ranked.
-Attempt to get their map ranked early, having faith that their map is good enough without the extra mods.
-Spend some more time to attract more mods to make sure their map gets ranked when they pitch it to a BAT.
The first option is a harder rank because multiple XATs need to give the OK, and it really doesn't work unless it actually DESERVES to be speedranked. If it goes through multiple XATs to get ranked, it shouldn't have an unrankable flaw. The second option (The traditional method) is easier because you get more quality mods, and your map only needs to pass by 1 BAT to get ranked.
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
Not too sure that will solve the problem, exactly.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
You're just double-checking. It'll resolve the problem and make "speedranked" a bit more higher quality (the ranking BAT have to control if the 2nd bubble was correctly given, in the sense, the 2nd bubble corrected small problems) and it won't Slow the ranking process, as it's only applied to fastly ranked map.
No one have to change his ways of choosing what to check, and it's settled.
Even if it won't completely resolve it, it shall settle it a lil more.
No one have to change his ways of choosing what to check, and it's settled.
Even if it won't completely resolve it, it shall settle it a lil more.
Topic Starter
I'll +1 this.those wrote:
Not too sure that will solve the problem, exactly.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
As much as I hate to say it, I don't want to trust the BAT team with "quality control" or to be able to judge if a map should be ranked based on the time. Because there has been a "focus" on that higher priority should be ranked, but where has that gone?
A page back...
tl;dr, placing a sanction on ranking will hinder the process. The best logical solution is that change needs to come from within the team to solve what they have created; the void that we call "speedranking" a map.dkun wrote:
I don't mean to point fingers myself, but it doesn't help if we're oblivious to the obvious. I stated this then, and I'll state this again. An effective measure to start to combat the issue is to remove the most prominent issue at hand, is it not?Inamaru wrote:
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
But what has me more curious is what these individuals have to say about what they do. I stepped up to the plate, so shouldn't they? There's always two sides to a story.
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)
Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
It's hard to use the word only when the majority are by one person.Sakura wrote:
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
There are only about 140 maps ranked in the one month... 5% isn't too low 
In fact I don't think 2 weeks is "too fast", I just don't understand why so many mappers can wait for like 9 months just to rank a map
In fact I don't think 2 weeks is "too fast", I just don't understand why so many mappers can wait for like 9 months just to rank a map
Topic Starter
In the last month? Okay. Andrea ranks 4-6 maps in 4 weeks. Other people cannot get 1 map ranked in 4 months.Sakura wrote:
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
Some maps have sat in pending for how long?
Also two of those 7 were deranks.
-Post Deleted-if you read in the thread, the general opinion is
as you see, nobody complains about andreas newest ranked map, either, as it is not a bad map.
The problem being addressed here is that bad maps are a byproduct of speedranking. It was noted early on that people are perfectly fine if GOOD maps get speedranked because they are good and should be playable. Mediocre and below maps however would benefit from the time spent cooking in the pending maps section.
Good maps = GOOD
Bad maps = BAD
Speedranking = Without moderation, more BAD maps get through.
Thus this thread is born
Good maps = GOOD
Bad maps = BAD
Speedranking = Without moderation, more BAD maps get through.
Thus this thread is born
The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
Now if the priority system actually worked, this problem would be a little less prominent.
Well,the other complaint is actually that the people getting the speedrank are the same OVER AND OVER
did yeahyeahyeah get other speedranks?
did yeahyeahyeah get other speedranks?
i really liked ur solution u provided on 9th page of this thread, i will quote it once again:Dangaard wrote:
The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.
sadly it was skippedDangaard wrote:
The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
if the bats/mats suddenly stop mod via pm or queue, and start mod based on SP priority only, it will prevent speedranking in any form
u can ask "what if someone throw N stars on map" to get it first in map queue.. well.. if someone got so many kudosu to do that, thats mean he spend lot of time to help other mappers and in some way deserve to get priority mod
since the SP system was changed, it should work like it was intended
So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.Dangaard wrote:
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
Except this one hasn't gotten unranked, just saying.
Except yeahyeahyeah doesn't have so many speedrankslolcubes wrote:
So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.Dangaard wrote:
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
12 days rank, 2 difficulties only
I belive this map is exagerated, 2 diffs (You call this a good diff spread? many maps need to have minimum 3 diffs for being ranked), only 2 thread pages and 9 mod, bubble in 4 day when maps got 5/6/7 pages, 2x~3x mods, more than 3~4 month old and no MAT post. You think this is fair?
And I belive SP system is useless, I moded many maps even if my modding skill is no so good for increase my map priority. Now what? SP +12 or SP +50 don't change anything MAT don't mod it, normal I'm new mapper, MATs preffer mod map from know mapper or other MATs/BATs. That give some MAT / BAT maps speedrank and let normal/new mappers map's die because they can't get a MAT mod even when they have high SP and many "normal" mods.
I belive a rule must be added like if a map is not minimum 1 month old and have not recived at least 10 or 15 mods it can't be ranked.
I aslo think the thing in panding beatmaps should say
"Needs modding (No MAT/BAT posts yet)." instead of just "Needs modding (No BAT posts yet)", and post by MAT which aren't MAT when they posted them not counted (Because I've two MAT post on my 1st page, but they aren't MAT when they posted them
)
And I belive SP system is useless, I moded many maps even if my modding skill is no so good for increase my map priority. Now what? SP +12 or SP +50 don't change anything MAT don't mod it, normal I'm new mapper, MATs preffer mod map from know mapper or other MATs/BATs. That give some MAT / BAT maps speedrank and let normal/new mappers map's die because they can't get a MAT mod even when they have high SP and many "normal" mods.
I belive a rule must be added like if a map is not minimum 1 month old and have not recived at least 10 or 15 mods it can't be ranked.
I aslo think the thing in panding beatmaps should say
"Needs modding (No MAT/BAT posts yet)." instead of just "Needs modding (No BAT posts yet)", and post by MAT which aren't MAT when they posted them not counted (Because I've two MAT post on my 1st page, but they aren't MAT when they posted them
)This is a problem that can't be solved in any other way except the MAT/BAT team changing their own behaviors. We can't expect MAT/BATs to look at every single pending map, so naturally if a well known mapper like Andrea posts a new map, chances are that people will want to look at that map because it has a certain level of guaranteed quality. I can't really blame modders for skipping over no-names since oftentimes modding a subpar map feels like a waste of time since it probably won't get ranked anyway.
At the same time though, there are a lot of good (read: at least rankable) maps out there that just don't get looked at enough, and probably deserve to be looked at. I know that a lot of "unknown" mappers try really hard to get people to look at their maps, and eventually after a long period of time get enough SP on their map to feel like it's ready to be looked at by a MAT/BAT. It sucks if you work that hard for that long to get anyone to mod your map, then see a map by a well known mapper get ranked in a matter of days after it is posted.
It's pretty obvious that the SP system needs a rework, but that cannot work on its own. The MAT/BAT have to more actively ignore who made the map, and rather put priority maps that have been modded a lot and have been in Pending Beatmaps for longer periods of time. We should look to reward all who put in the time and effort, rather than only rewarding those who have an established name.
At the same time though, there are a lot of good (read: at least rankable) maps out there that just don't get looked at enough, and probably deserve to be looked at. I know that a lot of "unknown" mappers try really hard to get people to look at their maps, and eventually after a long period of time get enough SP on their map to feel like it's ready to be looked at by a MAT/BAT. It sucks if you work that hard for that long to get anyone to mod your map, then see a map by a well known mapper get ranked in a matter of days after it is posted.
It's pretty obvious that the SP system needs a rework, but that cannot work on its own. The MAT/BAT have to more actively ignore who made the map, and rather put priority maps that have been modded a lot and have been in Pending Beatmaps for longer periods of time. We should look to reward all who put in the time and effort, rather than only rewarding those who have an established name.
Totally supporting the idea of preventing speedrank. But If one map really deserves getting ranked in no time, then why not.
Why ARE all of Andrea's maps being ranked so early? Is she able to rank her own maps?
>she
Andrea makes fun maps so there's no problem with speedranking them ;;
the real problem is how no-name maps are being ignored
just need to get MATs who actually like to try out random maps and would actually care to take a minute to write something after playtesting
that is all
Andrea makes fun maps so there's no problem with speedranking them ;;
the real problem is how no-name maps are being ignored
just need to get MATs who actually like to try out random maps and would actually care to take a minute to write something after playtesting
that is all
I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.
What you said is very true. Sadly most people just don't listen to modsSakura wrote:
I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.
But if you at least try to mod someone's map and then they don't listen, they can't complain about their mapset being ignored
Right now a lot of good mapsets receive no attention at all because all modders give/gave up on modding
But a MAT (as opposed to non-MAT modder) should set a goal to mod once in a while, imo, even if it feels futile. At least, check 10 random maps per week that you didn't play before. Checking one map is usually like what, 3~ minutes? a whole mapset maybe 10 minutes? even less since you can just DT the lowdiffs. Checking 10 random mapsets per week + throwing random mods = 2 hours "work" at most, and it's not really "work" since you're just playing osu and writing your opinion on map issues. If every MAT did just this minimal thing there would be a huge change on this issue.
I know Andrea is a Female name too, but he is a male >.<Mithost wrote:
Why ARE all of Andrea's maps being ranked so early? Is she able to rank her own maps?
Nope, don't think so. 3 minutes allows two rushed run-throughs, max, not including time to note possible fixes. You've got an agenda of hitsounds, spacing, flow, rhythm patterns, slider shapes, etc... I really don't think anyone could really check a map in 3 minutes.Aqo wrote:
Checking one map is usually like what, 3~ minutes?
Though, not everybody wants to spend more than 3 minutes checking maps.
True but not always. I'm recently saw some exceptions. Well its not "some". I modded so many maps and they answered to me and explained everything, so... They are also trying to do anything to get it ranked.Sakura wrote:
I used to mod random maps by checking into the maps posted into other people's mod queues, but the ammount of "ignore all suggestions without reason" vs "reject politely and explain why" / "accept stuff" kinda dissapointed me so i shifted my focus back to bubbles, although lately i've been much too busy to even mod.
I know this very well since I'm a newbie mapper and I also tried to do anything for my map, but even tho I got BAT post, no bubble until now. I think if I throw more than 1 star to my map it is just a waste, (+22 SP and many mods). I think that's more than enough for a bubble, but MATs are just ignore it.
Back to topic
If even if its just the MATs wandering around the pending maps forum, they able to bubble good maps because there are so many with low (8+) SP. But they are just afk or mod maps for a well known mapper. And get mods from them is almost impossible for a newbie mapper like me.
I think the goal should be to even out the mapper:map ratio between newbie mappers and popular mappers. Andrea has 161 maps ranked (most of them 2-3 difficulties) when most mappers struggle to get 1 or 2 ranked (having more than 4 difficulties). If anything, I'm tempted to see how easily I can map 2 difficulties and get it ranked. It's much easier than getting 5 ranked, so why bother?
Don't be ridiculous. While it's already hard enough to get the current system working properly, why should we add even more rules which make everything even more complicated? The mapper's name should not matter at all, that means we should neither prefer maps by popular mappers nor refuse them only because they are made by a popular mapper. It should always come down to the map itself, which is actually supported by the current SP system, we just need to get it straight.Mithost wrote:
I think the goal should be to even out the mapper:map ratio between newbie mappers and popular mappers
Also I got the feeling this discussion here has looped a few times already, maybe we should start reading what other people write.
Topic Starter
I've stated many times that hindering the ranking process will do nothing.Dangaard wrote:
Also I got the feeling this discussion here has looped a few times already, maybe we should start reading what other people write.
@ everyone else, read previous pages before you bother contributing, as for all you know, it may of already been suggested/pointed out/squashed.
But as Dangaard did state earlier, following the rules of SP and what it was originally intended is correct, but how do we enforce this within the team? As I have been duly noting, change comes from within the team to follow what guidelines they originally put out to begin with. And when a BAT is the biggest abuser of said guidelines, how does this reflect on how the team works internally?
But all in all Dangaard, sure. Let's get it straight. It starts with the team, no?
"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.
So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?
IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.
So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?
IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.
We all know the problem. Every single one of us. We just need more people like dkun inside the team to point it out without people going apeshit.
agreed, ppy, delay no moreGabi wrote:
"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.
So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?
IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.
BATs not having to do anything because they are volunteers is ridiculous. I volunteer a lot around town and not once have I been told that it is not my responsibility to help the job get done. The job at hand here is getting quality maps ranked based on the priority system, and I know that if I asked the BAT team, many of them couldn't tell me a map that was ranked in the past 2 weeks without checking the site. I understand the 2 week breaks for exams/vacations/etc, but when more than half the BAT team says they are too busy with other things, and their breaks last over 4 months, there is a serious problem.
I said earlier, I understand if you are too busy for ranking maps. That's life. Your account title is BAT, so either do your job or save yourself from threads like this.
I said earlier, I understand if you are too busy for ranking maps. That's life. Your account title is BAT, so either do your job or save yourself from threads like this.
obviously there needs to be BAT points for how often people mod maps and then if your BAT points go too low you become un-BAT'd, meanwhile non-BATs who mod a lot would get high BAT points and would be auto-notified for the team as suggested BAT promotion.
tee~he obviously not
tee~he obviously not
how about map in 2 weeks need 2 bubbles and 2 BAT's mod?
As has been said many times before, there is no need to put restrictions on the ranking process. This is counter productive.
The BATs just need to shift their priority to the correct places and also do better quality checking when ranking maps.
=w=
The BATs just need to shift their priority to the correct places and also do better quality checking when ranking maps.
=w=
This whole discussion leads to nowhere. Everyone has made his point. Now one can only wait and hope for the BATs to make up their mind. I honestly don't think they will but one can appeal to them to do so. That's what we have done now over 13 pages, it is enough.
/locked
/locked
Topic Starter
I'm pretty sure this is what I've been trying to say for the last 10 pages. Thanks for condensing it into something small and something that people will pay attention to.Gabi wrote:
"The BAT position is not a job, they don't get paid for what they are doing" Is a quote i've been told many times everytime i/we try to pin something on the BATs. This makes the BATs untouchable, since they don't really have any strict rules which almost allows them to do whatever they want without any punishment. This is what makes most BATs lazy and careless, and that's why nothing ever happens when we discuss changes among the BAT itself.
So unless the people in the BAT are going to change their mindset and view on this, without rules nothing is ever going to change. The community itself probably can't help out here, and careless BATs won't care about it either, so what can we do about it?
IIRC everytime a thread like this came up peppy would in the end say "I'm working on a new ranking system", close the thread and the discussions about the problems would go silent for a few months untill someone else got fed up with it. Well threads like these have been coming and going for roughly 2-3 years now, nothing really changes.
But as I said before, change comes from within the team to solve this issue. Everyone that I've spoken to on a personal level about it is fed up with it as well, but it appears that they can't do anything about it due to what those said...
Problem is brought up? The opposers go apeshit and nothing happens as a result. Problem is brought up again? Same process, rinse and repeat. People are tired of trying to fix an issue that half the team, give or take is reluctant to fix. The BAT nor the Admin team isn't oblivious to this issue, they just choose to not confront it since you know, one of the biggest offenders of this is a BAT himself.those wrote:
We all know the problem. Every single one of us. We just need more people like dkun inside the team to point it out without people going apeshit.
Being blunt is a fast way of getting on the team's bad side, and starting up threads like these get yourself pinned on most of the admin's hit lists. But hey, for the greater good of osu!, right?
tl;dr democracy does not work in a game such as this.
~o~
I think it's up to myself or an administrator to decide when my own thread gets locked, thanks.Tshemmp wrote:
This whole discussion leads to nowhere. Everyone has made his point. Now one can only wait and hope for the BATs to make up their mind. I honestly don't think they will but one can appeal to them to do so. That's what we have done now over 13 pages, it is enough.
/locked
This is why multi-opinion ranks should be implemented. This means multiple BATs in on it (assuming the map is relatively new).
It also bothers me how Andrea has 160+ maps and they are mostly 2 difficulty maps with questionable effort involved/rankability.
It also bothers me how Andrea has 160+ maps and they are mostly 2 difficulty maps with questionable effort involved/rankability.
Going to post to say that keep the discussion limited to the issues with speedranking, don't stray to speaking about Andrea unless it concerns speedranking
ie. don't flame people
ie. don't flame people
Topic Starter
There's other options available to resolve this, but adding on to the approval process is not one of the effective ones.Mithost wrote:
This is why multi-opinion ranks should be implemented. This means multiple BATs in on it (assuming the map is relatively new).
It also bothers me how Andrea has 160+ maps and they are mostly 2 difficulty maps with questionable effort involved/rankability.
fwiw: #1 speedranking culprit, this thread wouldn't exist without his speedranked deranks.thelewa wrote:
Going to post to say that keep the discussion limited to the issues with speedranking, don't stray to speaking about Andrea unless it concerns speedranking
ie. don't flame people
I don't mean to flame, it's just that so many speedranks and so many unranks coming from the same person raised this issue in the first place.
I pointed out the massive amount of unused MP3 on page 2. I'm just posting here because I'm mad 
BATs need to look at speed ranks with EXTRA care, not extra confidence that the map is good. Shure, people who have many beatmaps ranked are usually good at making maps, but that doesn't mean that their maps will meet a quality level in a small amount of time. Check to see if mods were actually listened to, and check for problems with the map.
I still don't want to see 2 diff map spam, especially when there isn't a taiko >:O
I still don't want to see 2 diff map spam, especially when there isn't a taiko >:O
^There are also mappers without (m-)any ranked maps that have a high quality standard but aren't getting any attention at all, that's the sad part :/
it amused me, to be honest. It's like, we make these huge walls of text on how to make things better, have a sensed, productive and constructive discussion and pointed out some stuff that shouldn't happen again.
And it doesn't freaking change anything in the end. If anything, it got worse. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was speedranked on purpose to make us rage, but assumptions like these suck, so I won't.
And once again, to thelewa, yes, we can quote names, because like dkun stated, very few people are guilty of speedranking mediocre maps, and we're mentioning the one offender par excellence. After all, and I'm going to be very honest here, when I interpret a good 50% of the posts here, I get something along the lines of "Dammit Andrea, stop your BS". I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying, that's what happens.
We've established that speedranking is bad when the map doesn't deserve it. As in, it's "rankable", but it isn't "good". I've made a few posts about that already. The sheer majority of speedranked maps are maps that don't stand out by their quality - they stand out by popular song choice. We've established that these maps shouldn't be ranked, and yet, this happened. Again.
You've got to understand that people are about sick of it now. Wouldn't it be more rewarding for the mapper who put a lot of effort into his map, looked actively for mods, and listened to/applied them to get their map ranked fast, rather than the mapper who makes some 2-diff mapset with plain mapping, with very few/lousy mods too often disregarded, and ranks it in a couple of days through relations with the XAT? Come on now. The star priority is supposed to put the best maps in the limelight, so that these maps get looked at by the XAT and eventually get ranked first, because they deserve it, so how come this is happening?
I doubt we're taken seriously.
And it doesn't freaking change anything in the end. If anything, it got worse. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was speedranked on purpose to make us rage, but assumptions like these suck, so I won't.
And once again, to thelewa, yes, we can quote names, because like dkun stated, very few people are guilty of speedranking mediocre maps, and we're mentioning the one offender par excellence. After all, and I'm going to be very honest here, when I interpret a good 50% of the posts here, I get something along the lines of "Dammit Andrea, stop your BS". I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying, that's what happens.
We've established that speedranking is bad when the map doesn't deserve it. As in, it's "rankable", but it isn't "good". I've made a few posts about that already. The sheer majority of speedranked maps are maps that don't stand out by their quality - they stand out by popular song choice. We've established that these maps shouldn't be ranked, and yet, this happened. Again.
You've got to understand that people are about sick of it now. Wouldn't it be more rewarding for the mapper who put a lot of effort into his map, looked actively for mods, and listened to/applied them to get their map ranked fast, rather than the mapper who makes some 2-diff mapset with plain mapping, with very few/lousy mods too often disregarded, and ranks it in a couple of days through relations with the XAT? Come on now. The star priority is supposed to put the best maps in the limelight, so that these maps get looked at by the XAT and eventually get ranked first, because they deserve it, so how come this is happening?
I doubt we're taken seriously.
There is a mindset in the BAT team that gives them a ticket out of "having to do anything", including changing their attitude/methods for whatever reason. Sure we have the ranking criteria, but that only applies after a map is selected for possible ranking. The BAT team is very corruptible when it comes to these things because it seems like there is a lack of... order. An example:
Player: Hey BAT, why are you so inactive/lazy/hasty when it comes to ranking/modding maps? That's your job!
BAT: I'm not paid to be a BAT, so it's not a job. /conversation
When we confront peppy on the issue, we get a more solid (yet still troublesome) rebuttal. "I am working on something that will fix this issue" or "Because it was designed like this, it works better than if we implemented your idea". With the BAT team having a sturdy wall of "logic" infront of them, the only way we can change things in the ranking process is to change the ranking criteria, which is done by posting word walls like this. There are a few BAT members that read these wordwalls, and they are also the ones unranking maps, proposing changes to ranking criteria to BATs, and listening to players. Sakura comes to mind when I think of this.
tl;dr: We need more Sakura.
Player: Hey BAT, why are you so inactive/lazy/hasty when it comes to ranking/modding maps? That's your job!
BAT: I'm not paid to be a BAT, so it's not a job. /conversation
When we confront peppy on the issue, we get a more solid (yet still troublesome) rebuttal. "I am working on something that will fix this issue" or "Because it was designed like this, it works better than if we implemented your idea". With the BAT team having a sturdy wall of "logic" infront of them, the only way we can change things in the ranking process is to change the ranking criteria, which is done by posting word walls like this. There are a few BAT members that read these wordwalls, and they are also the ones unranking maps, proposing changes to ranking criteria to BATs, and listening to players. Sakura comes to mind when I think of this.
tl;dr: We need more Sakura.
just grab the head of the problem, at rip it off. we all know who is this certain BAT, who shall not be named but sounds a little bit like sangria, is the main abuser of the system. expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further. in fact, every XAT who is constantly involved in such questionable ranks (not only speedwise, but qualitywise) and only seems to mod for a certain group of mappers should get a time out. everybody knows roughly who these people are, and everybody knows they only abuse their power and sit on their colored names. they don't do much, if anything, for the community, they don't do the things they should do, so why should they keep their place?
probably around 50% of the XAT would be cut off if peppy grabs his balls and does something, but they didn't do much to begin with, so they are replaceable. in general, the standards for getting a position in the MAT and more importantly BAT-team should be a lot higher than they are at the moment. I mean, come on, you don't even need to speak half decent english to be a MAT or BAT.
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.
probably around 50% of the XAT would be cut off if peppy grabs his balls and does something, but they didn't do much to begin with, so they are replaceable. in general, the standards for getting a position in the MAT and more importantly BAT-team should be a lot higher than they are at the moment. I mean, come on, you don't even need to speak half decent english to be a MAT or BAT.
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.
This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.Tanzklaue wrote:
just grab the head of the problem, at rip it off. we all know who is this certain BAT, who shall not be named but sounds a little bit like sangria, is the main abuser of the system. expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further. in fact, every XAT who is constantly involved in such questionable ranks (not only speedwise, but qualitywise) and only seems to mod for a certain group of mappers should get a time out. everybody knows roughly who these people are, and everybody knows they only abuse their power and sit on their colored names. they don't do much, if anything, for the community, they don't do the things they should do, so why should they keep their place?
probably around 50% of the XAT would be cut off if peppy grabs his balls and does something, but they didn't do much to begin with, so they are replaceable. in general, the standards for getting a position in the MAT and more importantly BAT-team should be a lot higher than they are at the moment. I mean, come on, you don't even need to speak half decent english to be a MAT or BAT.
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.
On another note, peppy is now plural.Tanzklaue wrote:
*Stuff*
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.
lol sorry can't resist to post, laugh so hardCXu wrote:
On another note, peppy is now plural.Tanzklaue wrote:
*Stuff*
sadly, nothing will happen, because everything is perfectly fine in peppies eyes, or not worse enough to do something against it.
This would do nothing since he can ask for mods and get them almost instantly, ask for bubbles and get them almost instantly, ect. The same thing has happened to others in the past.Tanzklaue wrote:
expell him from the BAT, so he can learn his lesson, and most importantly, can't abuse his power any further.
Can we actually get a post from Andrea in here? I'd love to see his opinion in the subject.
It's one of two pieces to the puzzle that we are missing. The other piece is peppy's current opinion on this matter.Blue Dragon wrote:
Can we actually get a post from Andrea in here? I'd love to see his opinion in the subject.
This PM chatlog is posted with permission of Andrea
Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.
21:59:35: <Sakura> however there's something i want to ask you
21:59:52: <Sakura> have you ever put yourself in the shoes of the other mappers?
22:00:39: <Sakura> as in, ask people for mods and mods on your maps, MATs and BATs not coming to your calls, spending months on trying to get it ranked, while in the meantime a BAT gets 5-6 or even 7 maps ranked?
22:01:26: <Andrea> yeah I did... that isn't nice at all I suppose...
22:01:40: <Andrea> I had a 9 months pending map too so I know
22:02:03: <Sakura> now even worst case scenario, imagine that your map has a lot of SP and is on first page, and has been bubbled and on first page for a month or 2
22:02:16: <Sakura> then, that BAT's map gets in first page and gets immediately ranked afterwards
22:02:31: <Andrea> I'd rage badly, of course
22:02:45: <Sakura> well tell you, that's how the whole community feels right now with your maps
22:02:55: <Sakura> but the thing is, that isn't your fault
22:03:05: <Sakura> you just make the map in hopes to get it ranked like everyone else
22:03:33: <Sakura> the thing is that the BATs and MATs themselves go towards your map as soon as it gets there, regardless of the other maps
22:04:55: <Andrea> yeah that's the thing
22:05:04: <Andrea> most of the times I don't even ask for mod
22:05:12: <Andrea> but MATs or BATs comes there and mod it
21:59:52: <Sakura> have you ever put yourself in the shoes of the other mappers?
22:00:39: <Sakura> as in, ask people for mods and mods on your maps, MATs and BATs not coming to your calls, spending months on trying to get it ranked, while in the meantime a BAT gets 5-6 or even 7 maps ranked?
22:01:26: <Andrea> yeah I did... that isn't nice at all I suppose...
22:01:40: <Andrea> I had a 9 months pending map too so I know
22:02:03: <Sakura> now even worst case scenario, imagine that your map has a lot of SP and is on first page, and has been bubbled and on first page for a month or 2
22:02:16: <Sakura> then, that BAT's map gets in first page and gets immediately ranked afterwards
22:02:31: <Andrea> I'd rage badly, of course
22:02:45: <Sakura> well tell you, that's how the whole community feels right now with your maps
22:02:55: <Sakura> but the thing is, that isn't your fault
22:03:05: <Sakura> you just make the map in hopes to get it ranked like everyone else
22:03:33: <Sakura> the thing is that the BATs and MATs themselves go towards your map as soon as it gets there, regardless of the other maps
22:04:55: <Andrea> yeah that's the thing
22:05:04: <Andrea> most of the times I don't even ask for mod
22:05:12: <Andrea> but MATs or BATs comes there and mod it
Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.
^ I'm not against Andrea, but this is really surprising.
Okay, this is now better.
Now I'd like to see why these specific people (mostly BATs and MATs, that say that don't accept requests) do that. I mean... Not trying to provoke anything here, but why would someone mod a map without even asked to while people are struggling to get their maps ranked while they are ignored?
Now I'd like to see why these specific people (mostly BATs and MATs, that say that don't accept requests) do that. I mean... Not trying to provoke anything here, but why would someone mod a map without even asked to while people are struggling to get their maps ranked while they are ignored?
This is strange. Why would people (especially XATs) rush towards andrea's maps and mod them? I could see some players rushing towards popular mappers in hope for a mod4mod/advice or something, but XATs? I am confused
We did a while ago already, but people keep being ignorant. Also I suppose this should be discussed internally, since it's basically a MAT/BAT problem.Sakura wrote:
Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.
it's not nice to blame everybody here for something I wrote. I posted this, not the rest of the people who discuss this, thus it is my opinion, and only mine, so please, don't say that others didn't behave correctly.Shiro wrote:
This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.
to the "false assumptions": what should I do if not assume these things? the whole thing is as transparent as a brick wall, so I can't really do many other things but assuming. I am sorry that the post was quite outrageous, and it really wasn't thoughtful enough for this thread, and the purposes of this thread. still, I think something should happen, because if Andrea didn't lie, then other XATs should get a big reminder that there not only BATs and MATs and popular mappers in this game, but many others who really need and appreciate help from the XATs. the critic still is the same: the XATs have to change their mind and stop only modding maps from only a small amount of people, and focus on the community as a whole.
and @CXu: yes, all of the peppies in this world have to acknowledge the problem that speedranking of unfinished or bad maps is. :< I'm sorry for failing at english while criticizing that XATs should be able to speak english q.q
Hey we found solution - XAT's needs to change their modding policies and mod not only popular / others XATs maps, but mod basing on star priority.Sakura wrote:
Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.
My opinion: If XAT's <mainly bats> do their work bad, they need to change or get demoted, really they are not only people in the world which can be BAT's.
Ofc. flame war begin.
Edit: We're discussing here, and I wonder if some of that bats which we mean, are reading this.
Topic Starter
Solutions have been pointed out on the thread as it is.Sakura wrote:
This PM chatlog is posted with permission of Andrea21:59:35: <Sakura> however there's something i want to ask you
21:59:52: <Sakura> have you ever put yourself in the shoes of the other mappers?
22:00:39: <Sakura> as in, ask people for mods and mods on your maps, MATs and BATs not coming to your calls, spending months on trying to get it ranked, while in the meantime a BAT gets 5-6 or even 7 maps ranked?
22:01:26: <Andrea> yeah I did... that isn't nice at all I suppose...
22:01:40: <Andrea> I had a 9 months pending map too so I know
22:02:03: <Sakura> now even worst case scenario, imagine that your map has a lot of SP and is on first page, and has been bubbled and on first page for a month or 2
22:02:16: <Sakura> then, that BAT's map gets in first page and gets immediately ranked afterwards
22:02:31: <Andrea> I'd rage badly, of course
22:02:45: <Sakura> well tell you, that's how the whole community feels right now with your maps
22:02:55: <Sakura> but the thing is, that isn't your fault
22:03:05: <Sakura> you just make the map in hopes to get it ranked like everyone else
22:03:33: <Sakura> the thing is that the BATs and MATs themselves go towards your map as soon as it gets there, regardless of the other maps
22:04:55: <Andrea> yeah that's the thing
22:05:04: <Andrea> most of the times I don't even ask for mod
22:05:12: <Andrea> but MATs or BATs comes there and mod it
Now please let's stop pointing fingers and let's start working towards a solution.
If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.
Exactly. You're assuming the whole BAT/MAT is fine with all these speedranks->unranks, which is far from being true. The only ones who are fine with them are the ones who are involved.Tanzklaue wrote:
it's not nice to blame everybody here for something I wrote. I posted this, not the rest of the people who discuss this, thus it is my opinion, and only mine, so please, don't say that others didn't behave correctly.Shiro wrote:
This post is full of false assumptions. I suggest you guys don't try to talk about something you know nothing about.
Sorry but I looked at http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55626 when I check the first page of pending randomly without being requested. This is your freedom to believe or not. If you don't believe facts there'll be nothing we can do.dkun wrote:
If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.
If you ask for reason that I go there, that is SP.
Topic Starter
wmfchris wrote:
Sorry but I looked at http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55626 when I check the first page of pending randomly without being requested. This is your freedom to believe or not. If you don't believe facts there'll be nothing we can do.dkun wrote:
If you're actually arrogant enough to believe this log, then I fear for you.
If you ask for reason that I go there, that is SP.
I hope you understand my point in posting this image.