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[Rule] Showing composer into artist for VOCALOID songs

posted
Total Posts
89
arien666
6,290 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
arien666
[In some of general VOCALOID miku ranked songs]

Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku
Artist: Hatsune Miku



Where's real artist who are composer of the song...

Actually, this would not be rule since artist might be thought by mappers but...
At lest, we should have respect for composers of these songs...



Or, most people would forget about real artist but just remember VOCALOID character...









On SOUND VOLTEX BOOTH which songs are composed by composers who're using VOCALOID,
there's no mention about GUMI but just composer and cover illustrator are mentioned.



Like this, I think we would show composers of VOCALOID songs on artist, not on source or tag...







meow...
Noobita
597 posts
Joined June 2009
Noobita
i agree!




meow...
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
There is no "one artist" to many songs nowadays. There are multiple contributing artists. The only way to let this happen is to allow for tags to be tagged themselves, perhaps like xml:
<artist>Hatsune Miku</artist>
<artist>wowaka</artist>
This way the tags are separated, could fit on two lines, and when searching for either miku or wowaka, you'll get the map. You also have wowaka in the correct place, not in the tag section.

This would also allow for custom tags like:
<featuring>Hatsune Miku</featuring>
because Miku doesn't write songs, she just sings them. poorly.

If source is unused we could put that there, or we could just stick the composer in the tags like we have been. Suffice to say, it's incredibly useful to sort all of the miku songs in the same area. Rather than force a rule on people to use the correct composer, I would rather wait until the problem is addressed by the website and submission process.
arien666
6,290 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
arien666

ziin wrote:

There is no "one artist" to many songs nowadays. There are multiple contributing artists. The only way to let this happen is to allow for tags to be tagged themselves, perhaps like xml:
<artist>Hatsune Miku</artist>
<artist>wowaka</artist>
This way the tags are separated, could fit on two lines, and when searching for either miku or wowaka, you'll get the map. You also have wowaka in the correct place, not in the tag section.

This would also allow for custom tags like:
<featuring>Hatsune Miku</featuring>
because Miku doesn't write songs, she just sings them. poorly.

If source is unused we could put that there, or we could just stick the composer in the tags like we have been. Suffice to say, it's incredibly useful to sort all of the miku songs in the same area. Rather than force a rule on people to use the correct composer, I would rather wait until the problem is addressed by the website and submission process.
Maybe, XML might be helpful for that thing and...

Artist: wowaka feat. Hatsune Miku
Feels long orz
Maybe, XML on BSS... Yeah good idea orz
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-
Well I think this would be the same situation as crediting the composer instead of the singer for a song (replacing x artist with y composer on the album cover) and frankly though it may be a bit different with Vocaloid I still don't think it would make sense.

I would suggest that a format like "Lily(SeleP)-Scarlet Rose" be used instead.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

-A t H e N a- wrote:

I would suggest that a format like "Lily(SeleP)-Scarlet Rose" be used instead.
This is already how it looks in-game when Lily is the source and SeleP is the artist.
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-
I don't really understand the request here, but why not use that format for everything? Just add the composer's name in brackets beside the singer
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
Huh, well, Justin Bieber doesn't compose the song, but he's the artist. If you're gonna aply this to vocaloid songs, why not aply it to EVERY other song as well? 95% of the time singer is mentioned as ARTIST because it makes more sense.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
tbh i dont even know why the Vocaloid is the artist, there was a long discussion about this with other members of the MAT and BAT but we never reached an agreement. Imo, the artist should be the composer of the song/lyrics, but people probably won't like that.

Edit: @Natteke: Yeah i agree, but the vocaloid is a program, not a person (well the one that made the sounds for the vocaloid is a person, but still it feels more like an instrument rather than a singer)
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-

Natteke wrote:

Huh, well, Justin Bieber doesn't compose the song, but he's the artist. If you're gonna aply this to vocaloid songs, why not aply it to EVERY other song as well? 95% of the time singer is mentioned as ARTIST because it makes more sense.
This is basically what I meant, thanks for explaining it well
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

Sakura Hana wrote:

Edit: @Natteke: Yeah i agree, but the vocaloid is a program, not a person (well the one that made the sounds for the vocaloid is a person, but still it feels more like an instrument rather than a singer).

So? The center of the song is Vocaloid's voice. Program or real person, there's not much of a difference either way. Leave the composer in tags and nuke this guideline because basically what it does is trying to fix things that work perfectly fine.
kanpakyin
Global Moderator
4,233 posts
Joined June 2010
kanpakyin
As I have seen.Most of the composer of the song was written to the source.So we can know who is the composer.

like this:


hum?
-Athena-
1,414 posts
Joined June 2011
-Athena-
Yup, seems my idea has already been applied lol, I'm slow as hell
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
the actual composers of vocaloid song are credited in source as you see...
We don't credit Motoo Fujiwara as artist in Bump of Chicken/most of the last (voiced)Tales Of songs for example
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Please no.... I don't even know who makes some of these songs. sometimes it's some random person on youtube. How are people going to know you're playing a miku song or making one if it doesn't say miku in the title somewhere?

The composer for a vocaloid song could be anyone, even not specified in some cases.

If we did this, I think less people would find the songs, because it has some strange person in the title, and less people would play them.


Edit: Composer in source is fine by me.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
The main problem then would be, that the source isn't for these things

Source is for when a song comes from a videogame, movie, etc; or when it made it famous, or when the song was made specifically for that game/song/movie/show.

This field was created to avoid needing to use the source as artist (Like for example Final Fantasy - Battle theme) and Source replaces Artist on the in-game song list at the top where it shows the song you have currently selected.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi
I suggest using this format as a fix "AVTechNO! feat. Megurine Luka - "DYE" "

This format still lists which vocaloid it is (no confusion as who is the singer)
This format would solve the source conflict.

I think those are the only criteria that players need to care about. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

blissfulyoshi wrote:

I suggest using this format as a fix "AVTechNO! feat. Megurine Luka - "DYE" "

This format still lists which vocaloid it is (no confusion as who is the singer)
This format would solve the source conflict.

I think those are the only criteria that players need to care about. Please correct me if I am wrong.
This would probably work
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I would prefer to have all of my hatsune miku songs be in the same grouping. So I can easily ignore them.

I also really hate combining tags.

It's a broken system that doesn't need to be fixed IMO, but I will support whatever people here decide.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/301336
Perfume - Baby Cruising Love
Perfume ft. peppy - Baby Cruising Love
are not next to each other, even though they are the same song with a different singer.
peppy
19,316 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Hatsune Miku is not an artist. In fact, the guidelines of using vocaloid commercially (how most of the songs are distributed) state that you can't use the names of the characters in the song metadata itself. None of the doujin artists that produce the bulk of vocaloid tracks use the vocaloid's name as the artist, because it is incorrect. The fact it is being used this way on osu! is wrong.

"feat." is the best proposed solution thusfar. Personally I'd leave the vocaloid names in tags (possibly without a space so they can be grouped for searching).
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
sakuzyo feat. Hatsune Miku - ChaiN De/structioN


Yeah, looks good to me.
peppy
19,316 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Keep in mind adding "feat." is butchering the song's actual metadata. Tags is a much better solution in my eyes, as long as it is searchable for those trying to find a vocaloid tracks.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
it also doesn't group them together on the songlist, unless you want to whip up some code where certain tags can group songs together (BMS / vocaloid / IIDX spring to mind)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Maybe if we could make tags between quotation marks "Hatsune Miku" work as a single tag that has a space on it.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
yey.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
Wouldn't it work to put Hatsune Miku in the source, cause the fact that Hatsune Miku is used is the fact that its popular (reason for source?). If I want to group like songs together I just put them in a subfolder of Songs.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
As long as we get better tag searching and support, sure.

I still want "sakuzyo hatsune miku" to find all songs with those tags in the tags and or artist, and not just search for the exact match.

Will old maps be grandfathered in with osz2 or will they be changed?

Sakura Hana wrote:

Maybe if we could make tags between quotation marks "Hatsune Miku" work as a single tag that has a space on it.
Searching "miku hatsune" should pick up "hatsune miku"
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
A typical title of a vocaloid song in nico is like 【GUMI】シルバーバレット【虹原ぺぺろん】, could be devided into 3 parts.

1. The vocaloid used
2. Song title
3. The producer's name/PV included/original/(maybe something i forget)

As we can see, 1 & 2 is nearly 100% followed as a rule, so why can't we put Miku or GUMI as artist here? in this system, composers are put into source so people could still know them at the time they decide to download. Also it's the way i support the most.

"feat." would also be fine imo but in fact there're few examples using a format like this.... (i could only remember that sasakure.UK once used this format...)

But only put Miku/GUMI in the tags won't be a good idea, it goes a totally different way with nico/youtube.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

NatsumeRin wrote:

A typical title of a vocaloid song in nico is like 【GUMI】シルバーバレット【虹原ぺぺろん】, could be devided into 3 parts
Just pointing out that there is no reference to "Megpoid" in the typical title. You have to know that GUMI is Megpoid GUMI, and not some other GUMI. "Megpoid" would almost certainly be in the tags.
SonicFan344
159 posts
Joined July 2011
SonicFan344

kanpakyin wrote:

As I have seen.Most of the composer of the song was written to the source.So we can know who is the composer.

like this:


hum?
This is a good idea. Showing composer in the Source is very good
animez15
122 posts
Joined April 2012
animez15
i agree to all but if u think of a composer...that is ok for me...it doesnt mind at all.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi
I just want to say that we should come to a standard with this thread before forcing anyone to change the artist and source of their song. I don't want people all having different standards and enforcing these mixed standards.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
I've seen something like this: 'Cosmo@BousouP feat. Hatsune Miku'. Mabe too long?
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
The general thing for current vocaloid videos (on both nico and youtube) is the vocaloid used should be put in a very obvious place.

Also personally I don't mind a long name there.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi

lepidopodus wrote:

I've seen something like this: 'Cosmo@BousouP feat. Hatsune Miku'. Mabe too long?
I sgugested somethign similar on page 2, so I guess this is probably going to be the accepted format, but I think some people are still against having the vocaloid's name anywhere in the artist field. (Also, there are probably a few other issues that I forgot to mention from thee other pages)
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin

blissfulyoshi wrote:

I sgugested somethign similar on page 2, so I guess this is probably going to be the accepted format, but I think some people are still against having the vocaloid's name anywhere in the artist field. (Also, there are probably a few other issues that I forgot to mention from thee other pages)
I don't see anyone with an against attitude if we use feat. format....

ziin's "2 or more artist" would also be a good idea.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I have a minor problem with long names.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/316633

The only thing I want is a better search.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
>Composer as source as in Cosmos for example, source there is "otetsu" which is the composer
emergist
106 posts
Joined April 2011
emergist

ziin wrote:

The only thing I want is a better search.
M2.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Bump this up. We need to get a consistent way of doing this, seeing how this was left unresolved and is appearing both ways.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Just quoting peppy here from earlier:

09:40 <peppy> the company behind vocaloid prohibits using the name Hatsune Miku as artist
09:40 <peppy> or even feat.
09:40 <peppy> unless you get licensing from them
SkyDevil
1,771 posts
Joined October 2010
SkyDevil
I don't think this should change, you can see clearly the vocaloid artist that made the song in the top left corner while selecting a beatmap
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Sakura wrote:

Just quoting peppy here from earlier:

09:40 <peppy> the company behind vocaloid prohibits using the name Hatsune Miku as artist
09:40 <peppy> or even feat.
09:40 <peppy> unless you get licensing from them
does this mean we have to change already existing Beatmaps?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Any artist/title issues on already ranked maps will have to wait until osz2, so that they can be changed without requiring a redownload
SkyDevil
1,771 posts
Joined October 2010
SkyDevil
new beatmap has KuroUsa-p as artist instead of Hatsune Miku

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55941
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

SkyDevil wrote:

new beatmap has KuroUsa-p as artist instead of Hatsune Miku

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55941
Yes we are aware of it, there was an error in the source or something and when we were discussing it, was when we decided to come back to this thread.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Ammending this, since i forgot earlier, my bad

Also to clarify this will affect all pending/wip/graveyarded maps regardless of submission date, Ranked/Approved can be fixed later when osz2 is out anyways.
The reason for this is that it's only an artist change, and doesnt require any gameplay changes on said maps or any extra mapping work. However changing it on an already ranked map would require all players the need to redownload the map.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Moved to correct subboard.
kurohana
520 posts
Joined October 2010
kurohana
Hi ~

One question: What should we write at 'artist' at a covered Vocaloid song?
For example this
this
this
If that already has been discussed, I'm sorry >.<
Tenshi
366 posts
Joined March 2011
Tenshi
I think the utaite / cover artist should be labeled because, with Vocaloid composers, it would be implied that a Vocaloid was used.

Also, multiple people make covers of the same song, so it would be really confusing if all the covers were labeled with the composer.
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