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posted
Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING
posted
Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?

Let's go over some statements and pick apart your ill-reasoned arguments:

fun =/= good

If that's not the case, then does that mean that Justin Bieber's Baby is superior to Vivaldi's Four Seasons? Obviously not, and obviously intrinsic quality and value is not derived solely from how "popular" or "fun" it is.

ppv2 is does create bad incentives that detracts from the quality of mapping

You use Toumei Elegy as the foundation of your argument, not even taking into consideration it hasn't been #1 for a long time and the fact that it's a decent farm map. We could get in to a big discussion about what determines the "fun factor", but it's a moot point, the current #1 that has been in the top spot for a long time is a PP map, Hitorigo, and so are the large majority of all top-played maps. Maps that are extremely popular that aren't really good PP maps are the exception, not the rule.

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.
It is analogous to pop music vs classical: the pop song of the week may be more popular amongst the masses compared to classical music, however the classical compositions will always be regarded as great masterpieces throughout time and people who take the time to enjoy them can find great beauty and majesty. Compared to pop songs, which even those who listen to them will soon forget the ones they were listening to a month ago and move on to something else.
So the PPv2 definitely influence maps in a negative way.


Now that that's cleared up, you might ask the question, "why does it matter if maps are all PP maps, as long as people enjoy the game"? Well it might be all fine and good for you, a self-admitted PP farmed who takes pleasure primarily from getting more PP. But for those of us who actually are interested in map quality, playing ar8 or niche maps, maps that have fun and unique jump patterns or really any quality that makes them not suitable for PP farming have a hard time. Not only because mappers barely make those sorts of maps any more, but because it creates an environment that's hard to deviate from the norm and actually make maps to satisfy niche audiences.

And so, it's not our or mappers' problem for having preferences that deviate from the majority playerbase of PP farmers, the problem is you failing to address a real problem that is inhibiting mapping in osu!.


Yolshka wrote:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the patt....blablablablablabla
Looks like a copy pasta meme to me tbh.
It's kinda sad to see that it plagued into even low 5 digits.

But elitists are in every community, don't think we can do anything about it.
Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
posted
B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.

You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?



It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?

You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi

mind = blown

Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.

Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.

Also

B1rd wrote:

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?
holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.
posted
In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
posted
Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
posted

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.
posted

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
look up the implications of subjectivity and come back

B1rd wrote:

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.
This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?
posted
TBH this entire argument on whether or not PP maps are good/fun is kind of dumb. People act like PP system is only flawed system and previous systems were perfect.

If score ranking were to return you'd see an influx of really long maps as more combo = more score

If map ranking were to return you'd see the same maps as you do now but people would be most incentivized to play popular maps and beat a ton of other players to gain rank on stuff that is easy. If you can place #1 on a hard/insane you'd get more ranks than getting #1 on an extra as more people play those difficulties.

If they were to change the PP formula to make technical slider maps give tons of PP I am sure people would start playing those.

Now the almost hipster thing going around is that peppy should remove the ranking system (which btw he won't as so many people would stop playing without the rank incentive)

So really ever being able to know what maps people would play (i.e. Fun/good maps) if everything was perfectly balanced is hard to say. So you can't use map popularity to determine if a map is good as many people will chase rank increases. That being said, I doubt even if PP/rankings were removed that things like hitorigoto or no title would suddenly stop being played.
posted
I currently have too many good maps and I am unable to play them all.

Plus so many good maps are coming out every day.

The state of mapping is excellent.
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING
now let me expand of my point...
posted
this entire thread has made my day, i needed this, thanks guys
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING
now let me expand of my point...
you realize this took months of planning right? two of these were ready since two months ago, i was intentionally waiting for the opportunity to get four of these qualified because of the artist name (four for fourfolium lol)

besides, one of these isn't even really considered "conventional pp mapping"
posted
It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.

People just don't, they map it like I said, and got popular for it. So everyone else tried the same thing and now 90% of maps are the exact same formula with no uniqueness, all because the PP system rewards the maps with easy flow and rhythm and retarded high spacing in one part of the map.
posted
I believe Railey has mastered the art of triggering people.
posted
Of course pp is affecting the mapping style, you're just trying to be unique and special haha, if you're mapping just because your map will give a lot of pp and people are going to like it for that, then the mapping style gets ruined, and I hope you understand, people are going to like and enjoy the map, but not because of the map itself but the pp. On the other hand, I don't agree with the guy that says fun=/=good, that's just stupid, a good map needs to be fun.
posted

B1oody wrote:

I believe Railey has mastered the art of triggering people.
Railey threads are always interesting at least.
But B1rd is a cutie, and since B1rd has posted on gnr I don't even care about pp maps anymore.
posted
what the shit is this thread lmao
posted

Mun wrote:

what the shit is this thread lmao
If you weren't lazy, then you'd know.
posted

Railey2 wrote:

B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.

You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?



It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?

You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi

mind = blown

Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.

Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.

Also

B1rd wrote:

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?
holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.
Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded. The proposition that the maps that are most fun to play also coincide perfectly with the farmiest maps is ridiculous. It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique. Farm maps are "fun" because people find getting PP is fun, it's not because of any intrinsic value of the maps, their popularity is based solely on the fact that they fulfill the practical function of giving people PP.

You don't have any logical basis for your arguments, they seem to stem entirely from a feeling of disgruntlement over the proposition that your beloved plebs aren't always the most enlightened and discerning in whatever behaviour they choose to partake in. I've already explained why PPv2 is a bad influence on mapping - because there are actually people like me and others who don't like farm maps or care about farming PP, but are actually interested in good maps. We are the ones who suffer as a result.

And no, Vivaldi's compositions did not come from any figurative factory line, because there are more elements to factory-produced items than merely the amount produced, they are also uniform and take no creative effort to create. Exactly like farm maps. And for your information, I don't deride every single music genre, but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well. Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality.



Philosofikal wrote:

In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!

Philosofikal wrote:

Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.
You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)

N0thingSpecial wrote:

This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?
This p/6252521

I do believe that TV size anime maps could be a lot better. However I don't expect masterpieces to be created from generic songs, and I think there is a place in mapping for easy-to-play generic songs and maps. My problem doesn't come from the mere existence of a few farm-style or generic maps, but from PPv2's dominant and constricting influence over mapping in general.
posted
I'd say Railey makes some very valid points here, particularly in that there isn't anything wrong with creating maps deemed to be "generic."

That being said, I do take issue with his whole diatribe regarding "fun" and "good." I'm not a mapper myself, but I can certainly see the point pishi was trying to make here - it cheapens the definition of the word "good" if you blindly ascribe it to anything that's enjoyable. A work of art - be it music, anime, or osu beatmaps - that is more complex, more accurate, more innovative, or more thought-provoking is always better from an objective perspective than something that's simply enjoyed by the plebeian masses, even if it doesn't make it wrong to enjoy simpler projects.

Now, I do get annoyed at the vocal minority of people who claim "mapping is dead!" or the sort; I think there are plenty of newer maps, ranked or otherwise, that are innovative and enjoyable in ways different from jumps and simple patterns. I find it to be a rather unnecessary and ill-informed comment.

Something can be enjoyable without being, objectively, good - and that's perfectly fine.
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