Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

should rules be absolutely absolute

posted
Total Posts
32
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito
Rules are not perfect. that is why we want change them. But in some cases(rarely) rules does not justify some circumstances.
so...

All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
here is some examples:
The song's audio file must be of reasonable quality. Try and source mp3 files yourself; ripping them from a streaming video site often results in low quality audio with high file sizes. The bitrate of a beatmap's audio file must be no lower than 128kbps and no higher than 192kbps.
192kbps is a bit hard to calculate in mp3 VBR or Vorbis. It will spikes up to 210kps, or lower than 128kps if there is a pause in audio. in this case, it is both within the scope and outside of the scope of the rule. this rule is not clearly defined for VBR or Vorbis as if you use the 192profile encoding, you will get various bit-rates. sound quality is important, but so is ppy's server space. so...

The minimum draining (play) time for a map is 30 seconds (but the recommended minimum is 45 seconds). If your map is shorter than that, then try looping the song with an audio editing program. This is so each map gives a high enough score, and also so people do not try and cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song fully.
The maximum draining time for a map is 4 1/2 minutes. "Draining time" is the total time of a song excluding breaks, intro, and outro. Thus, it's the length of time that hitobjects are on-screen.
Is 2 or 5 seconds away ok?

I am just pointing these out because that's what trouble me the most. but I think you guys will also encounter something else...

my point is: the rules are good for standards, but there is always some unexpected exception. maybe state that when the time comes, give more power to the MAT or BAT to decide these. or make a section in the forum where mapper can post what they think it is fine to break and have MAT/BAT vote it anonymously.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
There will always be exceptions. The rules are generally there to ensure that the mapper can't bullshit their way out of correcting a glaring error which has no reason to be there. If there are inaccuracies with bitrate calculation due to VBR, then the bitrate is fine. If there is a slight excess in drain time (something which I've never entirely understood the significance of), and it doesn't make the map too easy/hard, then there isn't a problem.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

D33d wrote:

The rules are generally there to ensure that the mapper can't bullshit their way out of correcting a glaring error which has no reason to be there.
This.

The reason the separation between "Rules" and "Guidelines" is happening is because most modders, especially the MAT and BAT, are tired of hearing, "IT'S JUST A GUIDELINE!", and then having to explain why a pornographic BG is not considered rankable.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral

Mashiro Mito wrote:

Rules are not perfect. that is why we want change them. But in some cases(rarely) rules does not justify some circumstances.
so...

All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance.
here is some examples:
The song's audio file must be of reasonable quality. Try and source mp3 files yourself; ripping them from a streaming video site often results in low quality audio with high file sizes. The bitrate of a beatmap's audio file must be no lower than 128kbps and no higher than 192kbps.
192kbps is a bit hard to calculate in mp3 VBR or Vorbis. It will spikes up to 210kps, or lower than 128kps if there is a pause in audio. in this case, it is both within the scope and outside of the scope of the rule. this rule is not clearly defined for VBR or Vorbis as if you use the 192profile encoding, you will get various bit-rates. sound quality is important, but so is ppy's server space. so...

The minimum draining (play) time for a map is 30 seconds (but the recommended minimum is 45 seconds). If your map is shorter than that, then try looping the song with an audio editing program. This is so each map gives a high enough score, and also so people do not try and cut songs too short for no reason, thus stopping people from enjoying the song fully.
The maximum draining time for a map is 4 1/2 minutes. "Draining time" is the total time of a song excluding breaks, intro, and outro. Thus, it's the length of time that hitobjects are on-screen.
Is 2 or 5 seconds away ok?

I am just pointing these out because that's what trouble me the most. but I think you guys will also encounter something else...

my point is: the rules are good for standards, but there is always some unexpected exception. maybe state that when the time comes, give more power to the MAT or BAT to decide these. or make a section in the forum where mapper can post what they think it is fine to break and have MAT/BAT vote it anonymously.
192kbps capped VBR will be sufficient - a BAT is not going to sit there and immediately pop a bubble if the bitrate spikes to 210 for a second or so. As long as the average is at or below 192, it should be okay.

30 seconds -/+ 10% is fine. You'll have a three second leeway before duration becomes an issue - though this will have to be judged on a case by case basis.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Ephemeral wrote:

192kbps capped VBR will be sufficient - a BAT is not going to sit there and immediately pop a bubble if the bitrate spikes to 210 for a second or so. As long as the average is at or below 192, it should be okay.
So I can't ever get my 80 kbps map ranked because the highest quality is 80 kbps?
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito

D33d wrote:

There will always be exceptions. The rules are generally there to ensure that the mapper can't bullshit their way out of correcting a glaring error which has no reason to be there. If there are inaccuracies with bitrate calculation due to VBR, then the bitrate is fine. If there is a slight excess in drain time (something which I've never entirely understood the significance of), and it doesn't make the map too easy/hard, then there isn't a problem.
I see we are moving a bit off topic. I was giving an example, and it seems everyone was talking about that now :D

So according to the statement D33d said earlier, how do we handle these exceptions?
Should we make a rule for exceptions?
If that is the case, rules are no longer absolute.

ziin wrote:

So I can't ever get my 80 kbps map ranked because the highest quality is 80 kbps?
I actually used to have a good example of this. I think it still sits somewhere in my external hard drive but I can't seem to find it(for now)
basically it is a music made using Windows 98, XP system sounds(the music is awesome!). It was posted on youtube or something(I can't quite remerber) and the author give a mp3 file for download. He actually stated that it is a good quality and it is under 100kbps.

another example of this is Ragnarok Online BGM. the mp3s in the game folders are all 96kbps. at the time was impossible to find a better quality at all, until they released the official soundtrack after 8 years the game was created.
here they are: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11436
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/6177

this one got lucky(was the time where the album was released), but didn't made it:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/13044

keep in mind tho, the in game music is still getting more and more, and it is not included in the official album. if someone wanted to map these music, they would need to wait forever to get ranked or approved.
Last edited by Mashiro Mito , edited 1 time in total.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
you could always re-encode it at a higher bitrate (which is retarded) but if it sounds bad it sounds bad

I'd maintain the sentiment that RULES should be RULES. If not, what's the point of calling them rules? Everything would just be guidelines of variable stringency. If a "RULE" has some ambiguity, then make that ambiguity into a "sub-condition guideline" or something. The rules are absolute, but subject to change.
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito

awp wrote:

you could always re-encode it at a higher bitrate (which is retarded) but if it sounds bad it sounds bad

I'd maintain the sentiment that RULES should be RULES. If not, what's the point of calling them rules? Everything would just be guidelines of variable stringency. If a "RULE" has some ambiguity, then make that ambiguity into a "sub-condition guideline" or something. The rules are absolute, but subject to change.
Changing the rule is not easy, as exceptions are always the minority. Besides, If rule are changed, It might raise other exceptions. Instead of changing, I believe adding rules for exception is better. This might make rule a little bit less absolute, but keeping it close is good enough. This will give mapper a little more space for their imagination. Maybe later the exception might bring a new way of mapping for osu! in the future that everyone will enjoy, while doing a good job at keeping away those ridiculous things at the same time.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
For bitrate, only the upper cap should be a rule, the lower one should be a guideline (so max 192, but it's suggested to be at least 128)
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
But having a low bitrate is pretty gay, and not high quality!. Even videos I pull off of video2mp3 are at the very least 128 kbps~.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
having a 128 Kbps mp3 that sound like a 64 Kbps is even more gay.

8 bit music or MIDI doen's even need 128 Kbps to sound good.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
You guys are going off-topic.

Rules should be absolutely absolute? yes, however there are a lot of rules that i think are more fitting as guidelines instead.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
should rules be absolutely absolute
Absolutely. Sorry, I couldn't resist ^^

Only the most central rules are always absolute. Things like timing and technical stuff where there's a clear cut right/wrong.
Other rules/guidelines have a kernel of absolute cases followed by a much larger cloud of optional things.

What is always absolute is that you shouldn't even break a guideline unless you truly feel it's for the best of your mapset.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,946 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral

ziin wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

192kbps capped VBR will be sufficient - a BAT is not going to sit there and immediately pop a bubble if the bitrate spikes to 210 for a second or so. As long as the average is at or below 192, it should be okay.
So I can't ever get my 80 kbps map ranked because the highest quality is 80 kbps?
at or below

read plz
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
How about we phrase the rule for breaking rules like:

You may break a rule if and only if both you and the BATs agree:
1. That what you're doing is reasonable, logical, and in the best interest of the map, and
2. That there's no way to accomplish what you're doing by following the rule.

In other words, if it's possible to make changes without destroying your map, you should always do that instead of breaking a rule.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
isn't that a guideline?
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
Rules should be rules and should be followed absolutely, but I think these should be few in number and easy to know if they are broken/followed. Everthing else should be a guildline. We could even break those up into Strict Guidelines and Looser Guidelines. Strict would need a dang good reason to break and Looser would just need a decent excuse.
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito

GigaClon wrote:

Rules should be rules and should be followed absolutely, but I think these should be few in number and easy to know if they are broken/followed. Everthing else should be a guildline. We could even break those up into Strict Guidelines and Looser Guidelines. Strict would need a dang good reason to break and Looser would just need a decent excuse.
I believe another reason the rule need to exist is to protect MAT/BAT from people &^&%*! them. making Strict Guidelines and Looser Guidelines and not including the "Strict Guidelines" in to the rule will make this matter worse. This is the reason why I introduced rule breaker(and it got nuked) to somehow make both side happy.

If you haven't read the rule breaker post, you can find it here:
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=65317

Since that thread got nuked, this topic is in a very bad position. peppy have said a lot of interesting things on changing stuff, and I believe all the changes will be there on OSU2. so I hope the rule breaker might still make a comeback.
Now... just when is OSU2 comming... ;)
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Rule Breaker is a poorly considered suggestion and suggesting it implies that you don't care about standards; nor do you seem to respect the foundations of this game. I think that all guidelines should be strict and should be followed in a similar fashion to rules. That way, there is less room for mappers to do ridiculous things. Rules should be breakable under very rare circumstances, or when the rules aren't clear enough. VBR MP3s are an example of this, because the current rules imply that they should never peak at above 192KB/s. This is false. They are allowed to peak above this, but the rule for audio quality implies otherwise.

What I detest (I really do) is when mappers try to get around the rules and guidelines or to attempt to justify something because the rules and guidelines give them wiggle room. NatsumeRin's horrible sliders are the latest example of this. If nothing else, I think that there should be stricter guidelines in place and that mappers should be encouraged to stick to the guidelines, unless they have an extremely compelling reason to do otherwise.

Maps have became more and more ridiculous and they are allowed solely because they don't break the current rules (or worse, the rule breaking is considered as negligible). I think that it's time for standards to be tightened, because for all of the experienced people who are used to the senseless characteristics of many maps, there are perhaps a hundred times as many newer players who would be confused by messy patterns and sliders. This is not what we want for a game that's now very popular.
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito
I agree that the rule breaker was poorly worded and considered. this is why I posted here see if we can make this rule breaker better. but later in that post someone did mention that BAT/MAT are allow to kinda "break" the rule and allow such thing happen. This is why I stopped posting because as long as BAT/MAT have the power to allow exceptions(make this a rule?). As you mentioned, NatsumeRin's slider was a good example of this, but BAT disagree with each other... which changed ranked to unranked. This is another good reason why rule breaker should exist.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
There should never be a "rule breaker" as a standard. Rule breaking should always be a case by case thing and with very good reason. If a feature in a map is considered as unrankable, then it almost always is. Exceptions are kind of hard to come by and that's before non-rule issues are taken into account, such as structure and presentation. Stop trying to make a case for rule breaking as a creative tool, because it will never happen. peppy would probably pull the plug on this game before that could happen.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Actually guidelines are case by case, rules cant be broken under any circumstance.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually guidelines are case by case, rules cant be broken under any circumstance.
I meant that as in a rule being broken because of a technicality or the rules not being comprehensive enough to allow for something. Again, the whole VBR issue--the rule for audio quality isn't clear enough and can be twisted every which way.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
if a rule is broken and people support it, the rule should be fixed to allow for that.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
i do think that many rules could be degraded to guidelines anyway
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

ziin wrote:

if a rule is broken and people support it, the rule should be fixed to allow for that.
It would depend on who and how many support it. If it's something that mm and peppy (or otherwise a very experienced user/BAT/MAT) would never allow, then I wouldn't argue with them, even if my word had a lot of weight to it. Standards are extremely lenient as it is and if we were to scrap rules simply because several people support it, then standards would probably go out of the window.
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito
It seems that most people here thinks that rule breaking only occurs with bad maps.
what to do if it is used for good/fun/positive purposes?
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
as now, and no one read it, i think some rule can be guideline and some guideline simpe suggestions...
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin

ziin wrote:

if a rule is broken and people support it, the rule should be fixed to allow for that.
Simple and true.

Rule breaker should never be there imo, if sometimes there's a contradiction between rules and certain maps, people should just think about that and discuss whether to change the rule, or change the map.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Mashiro Mito wrote:

It seems that most people here thinks that rule breaking only occurs with bad maps.
what to do if it is used for good/fun/positive purposes?
list them now. If they are valid we will fix the rules. If you can't, the rules are perfect. Should there be a problem later we will repeat the process.
Mashiro Mito
Topic Starter
Mashiro Mito
Alright, Rule should be absolute after all these discussions in this thread since I'm the only one think the opposite. Just letting you guys know I really did not want this happen so people make bad maps and get away with it. It was intended as a creative tool.
Please feel free to lock/nuke/delete this topic as most people who actually read this new rule session have expressed their opinion on this. It makes me look like a retard trolling if I continue.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Ineed, that's why we discuss rules and guidelines, at the bottom end the thing is this:

Rules cannot be broken under any circumstance.
Guidelines can be broken ONLY on special cases.

If it happens that maps tend to break rules and it makes sense then the rules themselves should be revised, not the use of them.

/thread
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 32