1. Don't forget to add "marc hudson" and "herman li" on tags, sometimes I look for DragonForce songs by using those keywords, so must the others.
2. 00:40:489 - ~ 00:46:643 - You didn't represent any 1/6 snare sound but 00:46:027 (1) -. It looks inconsistent and there's no point in representing those 1/6 snares as single circles doing that well.
3. 03:21:720 - ~ 03:22:873 - When the density goes same as the kiai time, it goes down suddenly at 03:22:950 -. It's exactly weird, even for a Taiko mapper who isn't that experienced in STD mapping such as me lolol
4. 03:47:566 - I just want to point out, the guitar turns to 1/3. It's still up to you what to use.
5. 04:32:489 - The only thing I heard is low drum sound. After all, the song is pretty crazy, but, don't you think it's a bit harsh to have the streams that spaced?

Kastellann wrote:

I know you told me on Skype that I need to be AT LEAST 3 digit to mod this map... But honestly I don't think it should matter that much when there are so manny great mappers out there that don't even play the game. Anyway here's a couple bones I have to pick with this map.

03:01:104 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - I really like this pattern.
hoyl shite thansk!!!! very much aperciated..
03:29:104 (1) - People might say this is unrankable (you can't really follow it that well) but I really like this slider.
turn on slider ends
00:00:351 (1) - This is a really weird position to start the map. Especially with a mouse. Anyways I like it.
everywhere is a weird place to start subjectively

I really like the map. If this were the new site I would also put hype on it but I don't know how to do that here (or what that even does. did they change it??) What does hype even do. Anyways +1 hype.

FoxyGrandpa wrote:

01:11:258 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Okay this like doesnt reflect the guitar sounds at all, since on 01:11:566 - the pitch is higher than 01:11:258 - but u have it as lower spacing
the spacing of the jumps is what reflects the guitar not the spacing of the notes ur gya lol
02:15:258 (1,2,1,2) - Tbh u;'d prolly be better off having these as like 1/2 sliders or jumps since how they are now it kinda skips over the guitar sounds and drums
wtf dont u hear that annoying guitar in the background
03:29:104 (1) - This might be considered buriai? idk not sure
turn on slider ends then it wont be
03:34:797 (5,6,7) - Why the stack on such a high intensity guitar sound
this is fierys part but hes retarded lo lo lo lo lo lolo aosd load olaslod i always complain about this in every map to him
04:05:258 (3) - bRO what the fuck hello mr tail wyd
epic moments on osu?

Dashyy- wrote:

fiery requested mod

diffffff:
03:05:104 (5,6,7) - ik the rule's gone but it still would be better if you uncovered 6's slider end cuz rn it looks like the slider is much longer than it actually is bro ur clicking 5 before 6 even appears on screen im pretty sure this is perfectly readable
03:29:104 (1) - you gotta consider the fact that a lot of people dont play with sliderends on. as such, the player could easily misread this. would suggest placing the end somewhere more seeable, like so have replied to this before but it's similar to other ranked sliders so there should be no issue (besides no one's gonna read the thing going the opposite fuckin way lets be real here)
03:32:797 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - dont get the spaced gap cuz u it wasn't that spaced 03:31:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - here and they're both representing the same sound it's to keep consistency with the first solo-ish part 1 minute in where there's cut streams everywhere, i have to at least put some zz
03:38:950 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - u could've done some cool things with this stream like u did the entire map, why not do it here? 03:39:412 (7,8,1) - i can only really do it here and that'd be kinda pointless
03:58:643 (1,2,3,4,5) - again, why the sudden change in spacing? 03:56:181 (1,2,3,4,5) - is doing the same thing so why not just keep consistent lol it's more for dramatic effect + it leads into the more intense kiai in terms of spacing

wait did u literally just copy paste and flip the first prechorus onto the second prechorus nice L

other than that looks ok for the most part

Aoiyuuki- wrote:

01:34:335 (3) - ctrl+g this, otherwise it completely breaks the flow of the section this shouldn't be a problem I don't think :s it doesn't really break flow since you can just consider it a hold slider in any case
01:46:950 (1,2,3,4,5) - this burst doesn't curve correctly compared to the bursts around it (it's too linear). mostly an aesthetic consistency problem; I recommend fixing it but feel free to ignore this if it was intentional tbh I don't know what your point is here, it looks curved like the others to me lo l

00:53:873 (3,2) - this overlap doesn't read well; consider offsetting the stream a bit to the right
03:05:566 (7) - this overlap doesn't read well; consider moving this circle up
03:08:027 (3,2) - this overlap doesn't read well; consider moving the stream (and maybe the kicksliders too) a bit to the right these overlaps are stuff i do frequently throughout the song, so i think it should be ok readability wise

03:26:950 (2,3,4) - this overlap doesn't read well; consider moving the triple+kickslider away from the slider that's overlapping it. the direction change of the triple also doesn't read well; consider ctrl+J'ing the triple I just moved the triple up, the way it was placed was kind of ew anyway, might change it back later though

Aoiyuuki- wrote:

05:05:720 (4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - this doesn't fit at all, especially considering how you used sliders to represent this part of the song every other time. change this to sliders like the rest of the map
it fits but isnt consistent with the rest of the map but i dont see why i need to so ill leave it as is for now
05:11:873 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - nice choke stream!
every pp farm map has a diff spike in the end and this isnt even the hardest part so

Dashyy- wrote:

diffffff:
00:12:351 (1,2,1,2) - visually these would look better as straight sliders like you did 00:08:351 (1,2,1,2) - and 00:02:351 (1,2) - . same goes for the whole section
too much of one thing is ugly and unappreciative
01:15:720 (3) - tbh i think u should start 01:15:873 (1,2,3,4) - here instead, since the guitar is louder here
completely goes against what i did there which is 8 low spaced notes and 8 high spaced notes alternating
for the first chorus, you really need to differentiate the spacing of 1/4 and 1/2 gaps. 01:48:797 (1,2) - the 1/4 gap here for example, is bigger than 01:49:412 (1,2) - , a pattern that comes right after it, this could cause misreads easily. i would suggest you try to lower the spacing of the 1/4 gaps (something like this), or use a certain pattern to indicate a 1/4 jump (like making 1/4 jump sliders sharp or smth idk). same goes for the second chorus zzzz
ok for first chorus no for second chorus because second chorus actually has spacing differentiation so
02:10:335 (1,2,1,2) - what foxy said about these 1/8 sliders is still a valid point lol. the guitar in the bg doesn't even have 1/8 sounds, and there are much better ways of representing the guitar, like doing the same thing u did here 02:09:104 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) -
guitar doesnt even go with 1/2 1/4 or 1/8 but i chose to represent the sound wiht 1/8 and also your example doesnt make sense because its not the same sound anyways
03:29:104 (1) - you gotta consider the fact that a lot of people dont play with sliderends on. as such, the player could easily misread this. would suggest placing the end somewhere more seeable, like so
ur example goes against what i did which is make a perfect circle and also i never misread it without sliderends so yeah plus there are much more worse culprits of this overlap in other songs that got ranked so i dont see a need to change it

fishyfat wrote:

something about big spacing at the cutstream section
ya
something about the 1/2 and 1/4 spacing
ok fuck this completely ruins that structure fuckfuckfuckfuck

Feb wrote:

00:52:643 - rhythm changes here even though the whole part prioritizes the guitar with it being clickable the whole time but this doesn't have it clickable. fixed

01:37:720 - this does sound like 1/4 to me not 1/3. Vocals also don't land on 1/3 for me. this is 1/3, it's noticeably delayed on 1/4

02:46:027 (1) - should be nc'd for consistency. For refernce look at the other part, also you follow 4 full beats as ncing. done

03:05:104 (5,6,7) - to me it seems better to avoid this pattern until after the kiai were you do it quite frequently. There it just seems not fitting to the more linear cursor movement on the other objects. it's better to introduce this pattern earlier rather than later imo

04:22:950 (1) - uhm I think that's quite a lot of distance that got added compared to the other streams if we take into account that this does not sound much more intense than the streams prior. will have to ask idke about this, but i think it's fine the way it is rn, it flows into the next section nicely

04:23:643 (4,6) - I think you should be more consistent in this part. 6 in this case is mapped as slider, when its mapped as triplet 04:26:335 (5) - right after, so basically the rhythm is swapped here, even tho its repeating in rhythm. in general i worked with hobbes to make this more consistent so hopefully it should be better across the song now

04:33:027 (8,1) - minor thing, but spacing error probably oops

04:56:489 (3) - missing nc for this one. Prior kiais had it. done

05:05:720 (4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - super hard imo to predict the streamshape at this point when it never happened before even remotely close to that. honestly this is probably one of the easier streams to hit considering the cutstreams lol, i think it plays fine

Ultima Fox wrote:

v1 lol

[Legend]

I problem I noticed with this map is there are parts where the focus of the rhythm switches back and forth from vocals to instruments, and while normally this wouldn't be too much of a problem this causes some parts where prominent drum sounds are ignored to be a little weird to play. For example, 02:42:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6) when the drums are being followed 100% to 02:43:566 (1,2) and 02:47:258 (1) where these drums are pushed off to the sidelines in favor of slow vocals that mess with the pace of the map. This really only applies to parts like 01:28:489 to 01:48:181 and 02:42:335 to 03:02:027 so perhaps take a look and see if you can incorporate the vocals without drastically changing the pace like I mentioned above. I don't find this to be a problem considering the slider ticks are mapped to the snares anyway, plus the vocals are a lot more prominent in the calmer sections instead of the chorus

02:25:720 (3,4) - why was the 1/4 ignored here but no where else hey what sup
02:28:797 (1) - this slider isn't visible at all, separate it from the stream I feel like at this difficulty this wouldn't be that big of an issue,
although I'm definitely willing to change it, I just feel like as it stands right now it'd contrast heavily with the rest of the song's mapping if I made it horizontal or something similar
03:09:412 (1,2,3,4) - here, 1 and 2 are 1/2 apart and 3 and 4 are 1/4 apard which can really catch the player off guard so try to make the change more obvious Okay!
03:26:950 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1) - this is a good example of what i explained at the beginning, the map suddenly switches from following the 1/4 drums to 1/2 which doesn't even really follow the vocals. what i would suggest is actually changing the 1/4 part here because before that a similar 1/2 ish pattern was being followed and it would make this part a lot more consistent. ok ur right on this one though, changed to follow vocals here
03:49:104 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) - why is this stream combo so long lol, all the other ones were like 8 the nc pattern follows the guitar here, so even tho it's kind of out of place it does have purpose (especially considering it's just one stream pattern)
04:50:643 (3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i feel like this should be emphasized a lot more than 04:51:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) because of how much more intense it is I don't really see how this part is more intense tbh, the part that's more spaced currently feels a lot more intense lol. Even then, I like the buildup effect going into the kiai here as it is rn

yehaj
gl!

Kuron-kun wrote:

fiery is cute no

[Legend]

00:51:104 (3,3) - I don't really think the way you arranged these fit to the style you're mapping; they're way too gimmick for it. Instead of almost stacking the sliderend to the circles, you can move them a bit like this. Would fit a lot more and wouldn't be that inconsistent. I do it 02:28:720 (9,1) - throughout the map as seen here as well, so I don't really find it inconsistent considering it appears throughout the map; besides, most players are gonna be playing these as triples and 90% of the time won't get an 100 because of timing leniency with sliderends, I feel like it's fine as is

03:04:489 (1,2) - Now the jump here seems a bit too big, don't you think? There's nothing really strong in the instrumental/vocal on that beat that may demand a big jump like this one. Might consider moving to x:208 y:68 so there will be still a jump but not that big. ok some1 else pointed this out so looks like i gotta do it now

03:08:027 (3,1,2) - These 3 won't play really well because when you hit (3) you won't really be expecting a circle to be stacked to the previous slider and even if you do, you have to go back and forth, then hit a stream that's not pointing to the same direction as the previous circle intended to point to. My suggestion to fix this would be to move (1) to x:448 y:60 and maybe unstack the stream to improve flow, but that wouldn't really be necessary. (i hope you could understand me there lmao) I understand but your opinion is wrong Rofl (it flows fine considering i do that overlap all the time throughout the map, albeit to a less extreme degree i.e. 00:55:489 (2,3,1) - here and 02:40:797 (6,2) - here, don't really think it's that bad tbh)

03:14:335 (1) - Ctrl + G to improve the flow? There's no much reason to change the flow there :c don't really see an issue with this one either, flow isn't really broken that much and the downbeat has a bit more emphasis as it should imo

03:19:873 (4) - Not much of an issue but you were following these vocals with 3/4 sliders, this is the only part where you added a 3/4 with repeat. rofl i forgot to change this one L moments

03:50:873 (4,1) - Maybe space (1) from (4) to emphasize the strong beat and make a cool streamjump? o w o ehh I mean I don't do it 03:49:950 (12,1) - here or anywhere else so it'd be kinda out of place imo

03:54:181 - Insert a break here so this sudden stop will be as cool as the previous one!!! I can't because extending the pause to 03:54:489 where the guitar starts kills the break. sad!

meow

• [Legend]
  
  00:04:101 (4,1) - Why the big spacing here and not to 00:04:851 (2) - ? You're inconsistent with how you put emphasis compared to further into the song.
  00:05:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:06:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:08:101 (4,1) - ^
  00:20:601 (2,3) - Here's where it becomes inconsistent, first section you put emphasis on the beat before the strongest one, as well as the strongest one half of the time. While here you only put emphasis on the strongest one and not the other one.
  00:21:601 (2,3) - ^
  
  00:50:950 (1,2,3) - Should make these more visible to increase readability so that the player doesn't get an unfair 100 or sliderbreak because of hidden sliderbodies and/or sliderends.
  00:51:258 (1,2,3) - ^
  
  01:02:643 (1,2,3) - Any reason for these to be spaced compared to the rest?
  
  01:11:258 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - This whole stream makes little to no sense, since the melody is arguably not going in 4's. So you're putting emhpasis on something that arguably doesn't exist and doesn't reflect such spacing. Just make it into a stream with same spacing, or if you really wanna force difficulty just space it out. The whole issue with this is that you set a standard for the rest of the map, which you don't follow at all later on.
  
  Because if you would follow it there would be a jump at 01:13:643 (4,1) - and 01:13:950 (4,5) - 01:15:181 (4,5) - 01:15:797 (4,1) - etcetc. If you're gonna structure streams around gimmicks at least be consistent with the usage of it.
  
  01:13:335 (4,1) - ^
  01:14:258 (8,1) - ^
  01:14:566 (4,1) - ^
  01:14:874 (4,1) - ^
  01:15:489 (8,1) - ^
  01:16:181 (1,1) - All of these have the same issues as pointed out above, they are inconsistent.
  
  01:18:643 (1,2) - Flow and the forced movement here is objectively bad due to the spacing of the stream resulting in the speed the player approaches that point. Then you put a jump on the other side of where it would feel natural to go to.
  
  02:08:797 (1,2,3,4) - Wrong snapping. Guitar plays 1/3.
  
  02:09:028 (4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - The sounds do support what you are doing, but this in comparsion to what you did on the more intense parts of the solo doesnt make any sense. This is much more difficult than anything else, yet its in the part in the solo that is the least intense?
  
  02:10:335 (1,2,1,2) - These four doesn't need such high SV due to the snapping. The repeats are already going so fast that an increased SV is just over the top, it's not needed.
  
  02:13:335 (4,1) - Same issue as with all other stream jumps, it's not consistentin any way with anything. There's no clear structure you're following, so every jump either feels random or out of place.
  
  02:13:335 (4,1) - It's not consistent with the rest of the map. Sometimes you use a stream jump to the slider, sometimes you don't. Even tho the intensity of the beat are arguably the same.
  
  02:13:720 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - Inconsistent with the previous one that sounds pretty similar, here you use jumps every 5th beat, while you could've done something more similar to 02:07:873 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - to be more consistent in your stream usage.
  
  02:15:258 (1,2,1,2) - Pretty much same issues as the last ones.
  
  02:16:489 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) -Why no stream jumps here? It's arguably more intense than other places, and it fits better here to have stream jumps than several other places you put them.
  
  2:28:720 (9,1,2) - You can't spot the slider, and the implied movement will probably make the player get a cheap 100. Either change the implied movement or make it way more visible.
  
  02:41:643 (7,1) - Could have made this a stream jump to be consistent with stream structure and stream usage you have used before, now it's just inconsistent.
  
  02:51:181 (4,1) - Suddently a stream jump where it doesnt call for one. While at other places within the map you overuse stream jumps where there's nothing calling for it be used.
  
  03:00:489 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Whole sections is based on 4's yet you dont structure them like you did with the ones in the solo?
  
  03:11:873 (1,2) - Pretty harsh jump and plays pretty badly due to the fast movement from the previous stream.
  
  03:29:104 (1) - This with the added snares on sliderticks makes it feel really off tbh, the whole idea of snares on sliderticks to begin with is only obnoxious. If you want to map the snares, then make them clickables, putting a hitsound on a slidertick doesnt give it any more emphasis or value, it only a distraction for the player when all they are doing is holding down a button. It's like the active object's sound is delayed more or less.
  
  03:31:797 (4,1) - 03:33:027 (4,1) - Different spacing, arguably the same sounds.
  
  03:33:335 (4,1) - Same issue as with the majority of stream jumps in the map. Inconsistently used and doesn't have a clear structure for when to use and when not to use.
  
  03:36:104 (9,1) - Taking the previous section into account this should be a jump no?
  
  03:37:104 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Doesnt make any sense rhythmically, it doesn't fit the music and it's incredibly difficult for no reason. The songs intensity here is lower than at other points yet this is much more difficult and more technical than needed.
  
  03:37:950 (4,1) - Doesn't call for a jump here due to there being no obviously stronger beat there than anywhere else., but I guess it's consistent with the rest of the inconsistencies in how you use jumps in streams.
  
  03:38:950 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - The riffs here are going wild yet you do nothing at all with the stream shape? It's not tehcnical, its just plain and boring. You set the bar for the technicality of the map in the beginning, either you follow it to 100% or it will come off as incredibly inconsistent.
  
  03:43:181 (5,6) - Same as the rest.
  
  03:44:104 (4,1,4,1,4,1,4,1) - ^
  
  03:45:720 (1,2,1,2,1) - Same issues as with all other hanzer stream-esque stuff in the map.
  
  03:46:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1) - Very bland in comparison to the rest of the sections no? Why go from crazy hanzer streams, huge stream jumps into a completely vanilla stream. The music calls for something else here, yet you do something normal. But at other parts when the songs calls for something normal you do something crazy.
  
  03:49:027 (4,1) - Same as the rest.
  
  03:49:566 (7,8) - Sharp turn on blue tick? You havn't used this as a concept before, so you should change it.
  
  3:51:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:53:720 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:56:181 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:58:643 (1,2,3,4,5) - Why are you increasing the spacing between these? There is nothing that is obviously different between them, yet the spacing is hugely different.
  
  04:15:873 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - What calls for jump spam here? The vocalist is putting emphasis on the "war" that is every 5th beat but you put emphasis on every single beat, why?
  
  04:20:950 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5) - Inconsistent with the rest of the streams and why make this so crazy when there's barely anything going on more than the drums playing. Its not intense yet you use huge stream jumps. If you really want the jumps just space them down, so its not even a jump just a quick spacing difference to visually show the player what you are putting emphasis onm while keeping the stream easy.
  
  04:22:027 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - ^
  
  04:30:643 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Inconsistent with other sections of the song that sound identical. Like 01:26:027 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1) - or 01:06:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - or 02:39:873 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - The rhythm is pretty dense but on the one at 4:30 you just spam 1/2 jumps for no apparent reason.
  
  04:32:181 (4) - Stream should arguably start here, to put emhpasis on the right spot. Could just make the notes before be kicksliders or something since that would fit way better.
  
  05:05:720 (4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,1,2) - Why the incredibly different stream structure here in comparison to every other section that sounds the same? Like every other stream within the same section or the one starting at 01:48:181 (1) - or 03:02:027 (1) -
  
  A lot of the mod is just the same thing getting repeated over and over.
  
  The whole map feels incredibly inconsistent within itself and it's not even an issue that there's two different mappers, since they are even inconsistent within the sections you mapped individually. The biggest issues are definitely how you structure streams and how you put emphasis on the jumps within them. There's several cases where there's arguably nothing that calls for a stream jumps, yet you use them and at other places the song definitely calls for technical movement but the stream is just a linear one spaced stream.
  
  It's like the map has multiple personality disorder since it doesn't really seem to know what it wants to be.

Hysteria wrote:

• [Legend]
  
  00:04:101 (4,1) - Why the big spacing here and not to 00:04:851 (2) - ? You're inconsistent with how you put emphasis compared to further into the song.
  00:05:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:06:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:08:101 (4,1) - ^
  00:20:601 (2,3) - Here's where it becomes inconsistent, first section you put emphasis on the beat before the strongest one, as well as the strongest one half of the time. While here you only put emphasis on the strongest one and not the other one.
  00:21:601 (2,3) - ^ my personal opinion: this is literally the beginning of the song, it's boring as hell, rhythm differentiation and spacing differentiation is basically the only way you can make this half enjoyable for people to play
  
  00:50:950 (1,2,3) - Should make these more visible to increase readability so that the player doesn't get an unfair 100 or sliderbreak because of hidden sliderbodies and/or sliderends.
  00:51:258 (1,2,3) - ^ mentioned before and I'll maintain my position: there is literally no way someone can sliderbreak on this if they read it as a triple, and getting an 100 on this means practically nothing since if they cared that much they could retry, it occurs other places in the map as well
  
  01:02:643 (1,2,3) - Any reason for these to be spaced compared to the rest? are u for real right now
  
  01:18:643 (1,2) - Flow and the forced movement here is objectively bad due to the spacing of the stream resulting in the speed the player approaches that point. Then you put a jump on the other side of where it would feel natural to go to. imo doesn't play nearly as bad as you're making it sound, it's a small anti-jump compared to a lot of the rest of the map lol
  
  02:08:797 (1,2,3,4) - Wrong snapping. Guitar plays 1/3. no, it doesn't, the ranked taiko version has this following 1/4 as well
  
  02:10:335 (1,2,1,2) - These four doesn't need such high SV due to the snapping. The repeats are already going so fast that an increased SV is just over the top, it's not needed. the guitar is at its highest pitch during all of these and it barely causes any issues playability-wise, don't really see the issue here
  
  02:28:720 (9,1,2) - You can't spot the slider, and the implied movement will probably make the player get a cheap 100. Either change the implied movement or make it way more visible. will change this one since it's a lot less visible than the previous ones due to the direction it's going in
  
  02:41:643 (7,1) - Could have made this a stream jump to be consistent with stream structure and stream usage you have used before, now it's just inconsistent. stream jump doesn't fit at all here
  
  02:51:181 (4,1) - Suddently a stream jump where it doesnt call for one. While at other places within the map you overuse stream jumps where there's nothing calling for it be used. you can barely call this a stream jump, tbh, it's so minimal
  
  03:11:873 (1,2) - Pretty harsh jump and plays pretty badly due to the fast movement from the previous stream. flows fine to me, no real issue hitting it
  
  03:29:104 (1) - This with the added snares on sliderticks makes it feel really off tbh, the whole idea of snares on sliderticks to begin with is only obnoxious. If you want to map the snares, then make them clickables, putting a hitsound on a slidertick doesnt give it any more emphasis or value, it only a distraction for the player when all they are doing is holding down a button. It's like the active object's sound is delayed more or less. i understand your thoughts but other maps have done this concept as well, and i want to follow the long vocal here instead of mapping to the drums since i follow vocals mostly in this section
  
  03:31:797 (4,1) - 03:33:027 (4,1) - Different spacing, arguably the same sounds. not really, there's less emphasis on the first stream
  
  03:36:104 (9,1) - Taking the previous section into account this should be a jump no? there's not really a reason to have it be spaced lol
  
  03:37:104 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Doesnt make any sense rhythmically, it doesn't fit the music and it's incredibly difficult for no reason. The songs intensity here is lower than at other points yet this is much more difficult and more technical than needed. you can literally just play this as a straight line and hit it just fine, and how does it not fit the music when there's more emphasis on the ncs than the rest?
  
  03:38:950 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - The riffs here are going wild yet you do nothing at all with the stream shape? It's not tehcnical, its just plain and boring. You set the bar for the technicality of the map in the beginning, either you follow it to 100% or it will come off as incredibly inconsistent. 03:39:412 (7,8,1) - this is basically the only place I can try to be technical, everything else wouldn't make any sense.
  
  03:43:181 (5,6) - Same as the rest. the guitar is emphasized with this one
  
  03:44:104 (4,1,4,1,4,1,4,1) - ^ these aren't even stream jumps??
  
  03:46:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1) - Very bland in comparison to the rest of the sections no? Why go from crazy hanzer streams, huge stream jumps into a completely vanilla stream. The music calls for something else here, yet you do something normal. But at other parts when the songs calls for something normal you do something crazy. this is something I can actually understand, though I feel like the 03:46:797 (7,8,1,2) - overlap here is gimmicky enough as it is, brings back a more vintage lesjuh-era DF map style i.e. through the fire and flames
  
  03:49:566 (7,8) - Sharp turn on blue tick? You havn't used this as a concept before, so you should change it. this doesn't affect playability at all
  
  03:51:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:53:720 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:56:181 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:58:643 (1,2,3,4,5) - Why are you increasing the spacing between these? There is nothing that is obviously different between them, yet the spacing is hugely different. buildup
  
  04:30:643 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Inconsistent with other sections of the song that sound identical. Like 01:26:027 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1) - or 01:06:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - or 02:39:873 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - The rhythm is pretty dense but on the one at 4:30 you just spam 1/2 jumps for no apparent reason. 04:31:258 (1) - this is the only note I can add a triple on to be consistent, I'm emphasizing the vocals here anyways
  
  04:32:181 (4) - Stream should arguably start here, to put emhpasis on the right spot. Could just make the notes before be kicksliders or something since that would fit way better. it would be in heavy contrast with basically the entire map at that point if I did this lol
  
  A lot of the mod is just the same thing getting repeated over and over.
  
  The whole map feels incredibly inconsistent within itself and it's not even an issue that there's two different mappers, since they are even inconsistent within the sections you mapped individually. The biggest issues are definitely how you structure streams and how you put emphasis on the jumps within them. There's several cases where there's arguably nothing that calls for a stream jumps, yet you use them and at other places the song definitely calls for technical movement but the stream is just a linear one spaced stream.
  
  It's like the map has multiple personality disorder since it doesn't really seem to know what it wants to be. You and I clearly have a different view of what the song supports, which is perfectly fine. I think that most of the stream jumps are supported in the music and aren't supported in the areas you highlighted for reasons stated above. All of the playability/flow issues mentioned were subjective and testplays showed that those sections are fine. I appreciate the thoughts, though.

fieryrage wrote:

Hysteria wrote:

• [Legend]
  
  00:04:101 (4,1) - Why the big spacing here and not to 00:04:851 (2) - ? You're inconsistent with how you put emphasis compared to further into the song.
  00:05:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:06:101 (3,1) - ^
  00:08:101 (4,1) - ^
  00:20:601 (2,3) - Here's where it becomes inconsistent, first section you put emphasis on the beat before the strongest one, as well as the strongest one half of the time. While here you only put emphasis on the strongest one and not the other one.
  00:21:601 (2,3) - ^ my personal opinion: this is literally the beginning of the song, it's boring as hell, rhythm differentiation and spacing differentiation is basically the only way you can make this half enjoyable for people to play
  
  00:50:950 (1,2,3) - Should make these more visible to increase readability so that the player doesn't get an unfair 100 or sliderbreak because of hidden sliderbodies and/or sliderends.
  00:51:258 (1,2,3) - ^ mentioned before and I'll maintain my position: there is literally no way someone can sliderbreak on this if they read it as a triple, and getting an 100 on this means practically nothing since if they cared that much they could retry, it occurs other places in the map as well
  
  01:02:643 (1,2,3) - Any reason for these to be spaced compared to the rest? are u for real right now
  
  01:18:643 (1,2) - Flow and the forced movement here is objectively bad due to the spacing of the stream resulting in the speed the player approaches that point. Then you put a jump on the other side of where it would feel natural to go to. imo doesn't play nearly as bad as you're making it sound, it's a small anti-jump compared to a lot of the rest of the map lol
  
  02:08:797 (1,2,3,4) - Wrong snapping. Guitar plays 1/3. no, it doesn't, the ranked taiko version has this following 1/4 as well
  
  02:10:335 (1,2,1,2) - These four doesn't need such high SV due to the snapping. The repeats are already going so fast that an increased SV is just over the top, it's not needed. the guitar is at its highest pitch during all of these and it barely causes any issues playability-wise, don't really see the issue here
  
  02:28:720 (9,1,2) - You can't spot the slider, and the implied movement will probably make the player get a cheap 100. Either change the implied movement or make it way more visible. will change this one since it's a lot less visible than the previous ones due to the direction it's going in
  
  02:41:643 (7,1) - Could have made this a stream jump to be consistent with stream structure and stream usage you have used before, now it's just inconsistent. stream jump doesn't fit at all here
  
  02:51:181 (4,1) - Suddently a stream jump where it doesnt call for one. While at other places within the map you overuse stream jumps where there's nothing calling for it be used. you can barely call this a stream jump, tbh, it's so minimal
  
  03:11:873 (1,2) - Pretty harsh jump and plays pretty badly due to the fast movement from the previous stream. flows fine to me, no real issue hitting it
  
  03:29:104 (1) - This with the added snares on sliderticks makes it feel really off tbh, the whole idea of snares on sliderticks to begin with is only obnoxious. If you want to map the snares, then make them clickables, putting a hitsound on a slidertick doesnt give it any more emphasis or value, it only a distraction for the player when all they are doing is holding down a button. It's like the active object's sound is delayed more or less. i understand your thoughts but other maps have done this concept as well, and i want to follow the long vocal here instead of mapping to the drums since i follow vocals mostly in this section
  
  03:31:797 (4,1) - 03:33:027 (4,1) - Different spacing, arguably the same sounds. not really, there's less emphasis on the first stream
  
  03:36:104 (9,1) - Taking the previous section into account this should be a jump no? there's not really a reason to have it be spaced lol
  
  03:37:104 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Doesnt make any sense rhythmically, it doesn't fit the music and it's incredibly difficult for no reason. The songs intensity here is lower than at other points yet this is much more difficult and more technical than needed. you can literally just play this as a straight line and hit it just fine, and how does it not fit the music when there's more emphasis on the ncs than the rest?
  
  03:38:950 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - The riffs here are going wild yet you do nothing at all with the stream shape? It's not tehcnical, its just plain and boring. You set the bar for the technicality of the map in the beginning, either you follow it to 100% or it will come off as incredibly inconsistent. 03:39:412 (7,8,1) - this is basically the only place I can try to be technical, everything else wouldn't make any sense.
  
  03:43:181 (5,6) - Same as the rest. the guitar is emphasized with this one
  
  03:44:104 (4,1,4,1,4,1,4,1) - ^ these aren't even stream jumps??
  
  03:46:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1) - Very bland in comparison to the rest of the sections no? Why go from crazy hanzer streams, huge stream jumps into a completely vanilla stream. The music calls for something else here, yet you do something normal. But at other parts when the songs calls for something normal you do something crazy. this is something I can actually understand, though I feel like the 03:46:797 (7,8,1,2) - overlap here is gimmicky enough as it is, brings back a more vintage lesjuh-era DF map style i.e. through the fire and flames
  
  03:49:566 (7,8) - Sharp turn on blue tick? You havn't used this as a concept before, so you should change it. this doesn't affect playability at all
  
  03:51:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:53:720 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:56:181 (1,2,3,4,5) - 03:58:643 (1,2,3,4,5) - Why are you increasing the spacing between these? There is nothing that is obviously different between them, yet the spacing is hugely different. buildup
  
  04:30:643 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Inconsistent with other sections of the song that sound identical. Like 01:26:027 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1) - or 01:06:335 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - or 02:39:873 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - The rhythm is pretty dense but on the one at 4:30 you just spam 1/2 jumps for no apparent reason. 04:31:258 (1) - this is the only note I can add a triple on to be consistent, I'm emphasizing the vocals here anyways
  
  04:32:181 (4) - Stream should arguably start here, to put emhpasis on the right spot. Could just make the notes before be kicksliders or something since that would fit way better. it would be in heavy contrast with basically the entire map at that point if I did this lol
  
  A lot of the mod is just the same thing getting repeated over and over.
  
  The whole map feels incredibly inconsistent within itself and it's not even an issue that there's two different mappers, since they are even inconsistent within the sections you mapped individually. The biggest issues are definitely how you structure streams and how you put emphasis on the jumps within them. There's several cases where there's arguably nothing that calls for a stream jumps, yet you use them and at other places the song definitely calls for technical movement but the stream is just a linear one spaced stream.
  
  It's like the map has multiple personality disorder since it doesn't really seem to know what it wants to be. You and I clearly have a different view of what the song supports, which is perfectly fine. I think that most of the stream jumps are supported in the music and aren't supported in the areas you highlighted for reasons stated above. All of the playability/flow issues mentioned were subjective and testplays showed that those sections are fine. I appreciate the thoughts, though.

Hysteria wrote:

To be honest, most of these aren't even subjective issues. yes they are, most of what you said can be boiled down to either "in my opinion this should be spaced more/less because it doesn't fit my interpretation of the song", which is fine for an average mod, but trying to pass stuff like that as an explicitly unrankable issue just doesn't work. you can think it's bad aesthetics or bad consistency all you want, i'm not gonna force you to change your opinion, but i feel like as it is right now the map is fine in terms of consistency with patterning and rhythm.

They are flaws within the maps design and should therefore be handled correctly, by ironing them out. Stating that they are subjective or stating that we have different views of what the song supports just comes off as you trying to avoid the issues pointed out to get a smoother ride into ranked. i've had multiple modders and bn's look at this map and they never pointed out any of the issues that you had with the map. that's obviously not a bad thing, just means your opinion is unique, but it doesn't mean i'm required to apply everything that you said. for those i didn't apply i (for the most part, kinda faded away by the end cuz i was tired admittedly) tried giving thoughtful and reasonable responses to your points, so i'm not really sure why you think i'm just brushing off what you say. also, i'm not trying to make this a "smooth ride into ranked", because i actually do care about the quality of my maps, i'm not just trying to make an arbitrary number go up on my profile.

Just because a ranked version uses wrongly snapped objects doesn't excuse you for doing the same. The guitar is a) Really off and is trying to play 1/4 but fails, or b) playing 1/3. Either way the most accurate representation of that section, as of right now would be to snap them at 1/3 since the guitar plays 2 beats between 02:08:797 - and 02:09:104 - 1/4 fits the playability best here in any case, randomly swapping to 1/3 in the middle of a stream plays horribly and the drums (as said above) follow 1/4, there's basically no reason not to follow a properly snapped rhythm than trying to imitate a guitar that goes wild (for the record, i still think the guitar here is 1/4, if you pointed out 03:47:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - i would understand a lot better since it actually is seemingly 1/3 here)

Sharp turns on blue ticks doesn't affect playability? I guess the reasoning behind why people tend to avoid doing that completely at random is void and null then. it is one continuous stream pattern, and people don't tend to avoid it, if you want other examples why not look at blue zenith which does it a fair amount more often? i hate to bring up the "lol other maps did the same thing so its fine!!" argument but this isn't an objectively wrong issue with the map lol

Catering to high ranked players is fine, but for the record, that you or idke or anyone in the top being able to play anything and everything doesn't mean it's automatically "playable". If that was the case most flow based issues or playability issues wouldn't even be issues to begin with. the great thing about being a high ranked player is yes, sure, you can playtest your own hard map and say "this plays well", but you also have lots of connections to other high ranked players who are willing to testplay. we weren't the only people that played this map. monko did, digitalhypno did, umbre did, plus i asked several others like squilly and aireu (not sure if they actually got back to me though xd)...there's a lot more than just us two. i asked for their thoughts and we applied their changes as necessary.

Either way, good luck with the continutation of this.

Kuron-kun wrote:

Unsure about everything you mentioned to be objectively wrong.
They aren't objectively wrong.

Inconsistency with spacing and rhythm is subjective (and sometimes not even an issue) if they're properly addressed and aren't wrongly snapped and, at least, have a purpose inside the song.

As for the guitar being 1/3 or not: I can't really hear them being 1/3, even if I decrease playback rate by 75%. They are still following a 1/2 and 1/4 rhythm alongside the drums. And, well, if the guitar is actually 1/3, the drums are definitely 1/4, so, yeah, these aren't wrong.