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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option

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Total Posts
391

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
96
50.79%
Yes, with a negative multiplier
40
21.16%
No
53
28.04%
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,762
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bwross

theowest wrote:

Lybydose wrote:

Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.

By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.

It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.
No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
As Lybydose points out, the ship has already sailed for just simply allowing it as a preference now. Two of the plus mods are the same thing as AR in a different wrapper, and the other two alter it. AR is fundamentally tied to the things that give more points and thus get recognition as "skill". Which is why you can expect things like AR only to be able to be increased (as peppy brought forward) if it's just a simple preference people can set... that would help protect the value of HR, because otherwise it would be largely cancelled out for so many maps that it wouldn't be worth any bonus (even where it might still apply). This makes things more like what Henry Ford said about the Model T, "you can have any colour you want, so long as it's black". There might not be a real choice for everyone, and that would be unfair by your own reasoning.
Makar

theowest wrote:

Sakura wrote:

@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.
Actually, in this case, it's better to look at it in the way Sakura did. Most people who simply said "No" will be okay if it was negative, but would just prefer it not being implemented at all, and vice versa.

Also, I'm sure a lot of people will at first see this poll and think "ohey AR customization, I want this so its easier" and so they choose Yes without thinking about how it effects the game - they just want it to be easier so they can get a better score. I bet after some users actually start reading this thread about all the reasons to -not- allow this, they have changed their mind (which probably explains the gradual decrease in the number of people who actually agree to do this without a penalty).

theowest wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.

It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.

Maps with poor and stubborn AR will not get ranked, just like the wrong offset on a beatmap. You are the one here that is missing the point. You want this game to be playable by everyone. If you want AR to be user definable so that it can help the map be playable by everyone, changing the speed of the map does the same. Its just one is a more obvious skill requirement than the other.

Taken from the feature request for having more keys to stream with (which also makes the game easier):

Zarerion wrote:

Uhm...
This is seriously being discussed?
"I can't do this, because it's too hard and I'm too lazy to practice, make it easier!!"

I mean, what the fuck? This whole idea is ridicolous, it would totally destroy the whole osu!-gameplay.
haha5957
@Makar, you are breaking your logic yourself.

Makar wrote:

He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.
Airman and bigblack with AR8 would be horrible and unreadable. Hell yeah, agrees.

Then why not just let them do that? it would be even harder when they do it. People who disagrees with adjustable AR, are against it mainly because they think it would make this game easier for everyone.

However, it's been said that the default AR will work best for most people and it's ridiculos to say that adjusting AR would make this game easier.

You are breaking your own logic by yourself : You're saying adjustable AR would make this game easier, thus not a good thing. but at the same time you are saying that adjusting AR would make most of maps harder.

If adjusting AR makes a map easier, then that kinda means that map sucks. just like some of maps have wrong offset, they have wrong AR. Then we should be able to adjust that .(for offset, we use + and - as you know)

What's so wrong with this?

It's just this simple : Let them adjust their AR because adjusting AR would make it harder. However if it actually makes it easier, then the map's AR is wrong just like how some maps have wrong offset.

I can't understand how you are saying "ah...default AR is da best! AR adjusting is unnecessary." and "Adjusting AR would make this game easier" at the same time.
Aqo

theowest wrote:

You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well.
I just saw this and it made me scratch my head. what the hell is this statement

"plays well"? what's "well"? That's the most subjective statement I've ever seen. If you'd ask me, every single map ever plays better with AR10. There's plenty of maps, especially for songs above 240bpm, where AR10 reduces the amount of stacking and makes the map a whole lot more readable. It definitely plays WELL and much BETTER like that. Examples for maps: Big Black, Slotcore, Sacrifice, Assailant, Creator. No matter what you say, even if you can't read AR10, try to play those with AR9 (or lower) and it'll make them harder. All of those are a lot more readable with AR10 than anything below it.

Also, I've seen beatmappers who put AR9 on [Hard] difficulties for low-bpm songs, and it gets ranked, so I don't see the problem? (meanwhile some 200bpm Insanes like Chousai Kenbo use AR8, wtf? AR9 would've made it much more playable). In the end, mappers make maps the way they like. You should stop assuming AR is some global stat that can be perfect for each map; the mapper should feel free to pick his own difficulty tuning based on his preferences and the modding process should not eliminate this either.

If you play a map for ranking purposes, accept the mapper's settings and learn to play by them.
But if you just play for fun, why should the game restrict the ways you're allowed to enjoy it? One of osu!'s strongest points in the open-edit. Other games without open-edit have died quickly because people basically just 'tried everything out' and got bored. Meanwhile games with an open map editor and editing options (starcraft, unreal tournament (UDK+mutators), etc) have lasted for years because people always had new things they could try out.

More freedom is always a plus. Just add it in a way that doesn't hurt ranking and you're done. Why do you people make it so much more complicated than it really is.
Zare
Aqo is right.
I can only repeat myself, AR is chosen by the mapper to fit the specific map. Changing it would be equal to changing the map, which would be cheating.

And if this gets implemented, it MUST have a negative multiplier. However, it must reduce the score enough to make sure one can't get top scores by reducing AR and using HR. I would suggest x0,5, in order to make sure this is an fun/practice-only-option.
Makar
@haha5967: Most of the time people complain about AR because it is too hard for them to play (too high or too low). If the AR chosen by the mapper is a poor choice of AR, that will result in a bad map/ratings. But, a bad map is a bad map. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's nothing we can do about poor OD/HP choice either, and im sure nobody will want to allow adjusting that because some mappers suck at choosing a good OD/HP. The same applies to AR.

FYI if you want to challenge yourself at a hard AR, just edit the beatmap yourself and it won't even count towards your rank (and I'm sure you dont want it to count if you truely are adjusting just so you can test yourself. However, if you are adjusting the AR because it is too hard and you want it to be easier, then again I will say it needs to be a difficulty decreasing mod.

Really, Easy mod just needs to let the player adjust their own difficulty settings and you will get what you want.
And yeah, I agree with Aqo and Zarerion. This way, everybody gets what they want.

EDIT: lolwtf ~+100SP and ~13 votes in the past hour? hrrr
theowest
Looks like a lot of people want this.
bomber34

theowest wrote:

Looks like a lot of people want this.
nah just 31415926535897 and a few others who spam SP
MillhioreF
pi gave 32 supporter stars somehow, I didn't know it was possible to have that many on one person!!
theowest
you can save them.
CaCtus112

theowest wrote:

CaCtus112 wrote:

where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
ctb isn't rhythm based. therefore broken.

also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?

More fun for everyone.
HAHAHA no. why cant we choose the FL radius at Flashlight mod then? it's the same like this e_e
no one wants AR hackers in this game, and THIS feature request is like a legit AR hack - -
theowest
a hack for everyone.
Makar

theowest wrote:

a hack for everyone.
A score reducing hack/mod for everyone.
Yesplz
ouranhshc
*goes to make maps ar 0*
theowest

ouranhshc wrote:

*goes to make maps ar 0*
do it
VelperK
lol theowest
winber1
what about AR-1, would the approach circles move away from the notes?

I'd honestly like to see that.
theowest
lets do it
ouranhshc

theowest wrote:

lets do it
EDIT: IT BREAKS IT
MillhioreF
aww, I want ar0 maps to play D:
MMzz
ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
ztrot
ban this all together? maps that have ars that don't fit should be addressed in the modding phase no fixed by a mod.
MillhioreF
sadly I have to admit it's subjective... most people would put ar9 on absolutely everything while I find it hard to read and would much rather prefer ar8 or even ar7.
ouranhshc
time for ouran's serious post:

Honestly, if osu! was a scrolling rhythm game like DDR, then i wouldn't have a problem. But AR has too much influence in the mapping process to be messed with by the player.
Aqo

MMzz wrote:

ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.

That's the kind of use an ARmod would have and I'd love to see it

Also, again, it would be nice to pick ARs higher than 10 without being forced to use DoubleTime. It's frustrating that you need to slow down a song in Audacity by 33% and then re-map it just to play with an AR higher than 10, and really makes no sense. Please remove this arbitrary limit. Keep AR(x)+HR limited to 10 like it is now but give [mappers]/[players using ARmod] the option to pick an AR higher than 10 by default (and HR would simply leave it unchanged). Preferably with increments of at least 50ms or lower (0.33 of an AR) because every tiny difference at this range makes a big change since you're nearing the human reaction limit of 200ms.
Tom69_old

Aqo wrote:

MMzz wrote:

ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.

That's the kind of use an ARmod would have and I'd love to see it

Also, again, it would be nice to pick ARs higher than 10 without being forced to use DoubleTime. It's frustrating that you need to slow down a song in Audacity by 33% and then re-map it just to play with an AR higher than 10, and really makes no sense. Please remove this arbitrary limit. Keep AR(x)+HR limited to 10 like it is now but give [mappers]/[players using ARmod] the option to pick an AR higher than 10 by default (and HR would simply leave it unchanged). Preferably with increments of at least 50ms or lower (0.33 of an AR) because every tiny difference at this range makes a big change since you're nearing the human reaction limit of 200ms.
In general I would love to have AR being selectable in 0.5 intervals (or even 1/3 intervals). 9.5 would be such an awesome AR for so many songs.
ouranhshc

Aqo wrote:

MMzz wrote:

ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.

That's the kind of use an ARmod would have and I'd love to see it

i'm pretty sure you proved most people's point about players would try to make it easier.
Aqo

ouranhshc wrote:

i'm pretty sure you proved most people's point about players would try to make it easier.
Wasn't that obvious from the start?

If I get a 50% score reduction from it, I don't see the problem? It's not like I'd suddenly be able to FC this map with AR10mod without being able to also FC it with AR9default after some retries maybe at the worst case, for a score twice higher. As long as you lose score from it, it stays inferior to no-ARmod plays on scoreboards, and thus fair for everybody.

At the same time, being able to use this to set AR to 7/6 on various maps to practice stack reading would save the hassle of having to constantly go into Edit; or being able to set AR like 9.5 or 10.3 without having to use DT to play in a setting that is fun for you (and not necessarily easier or harder) on all maps and not just on a restricted amount.
theowest
osu!mania u guys.
Mismagius
okay so you basically want osu! to be easier for you without any change in multiplier

ok
Snepif

ztrot wrote:

ban this all together? maps that have ars that don't fit should be addressed in the modding phase no fixed by a mod.
Exactly this.
CXu
Let me put it this way: No.
Makar
So basically a lot of people are voting for Yes because it makes it easier for them and don't bother thinking of what they are really asking for because all they care about is a better score. They give no reasons on why it shouldn't be a negative multiplier :/

The large majority of the people posting here post "No" or "Yes but with a negative multiplier" and give lots of reasoning for it, but the few people who post saying they support it generally just say "support" and very few of those say something more than that ~
Renard_old

MMzz wrote:

ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
NO... AR10 ON ALL MAPS KGO! XD

and AQO ....PRACTICE UNTIL U DIE!! xd
Renard_old

Blue Dragon wrote:

okay so you basically want osu! to be easier for you without any change in multiplier

ok
what about changing the ar reduce multiplier by 0.10
GladiOol
Mak stream function for user definalble opton


HEY GUIS. I HAVE TRUBLE WITH STREAMS. THEY R FAST AND MY MOUSE NO GOOD LOL. I CLIK AND CLIC BUT NOT FASTEST ENOGH. SO PLS MAK STRAMS FOR USER DFINALBE BECUZ THIS IS NO GOOD. JUST BECUS I AM BAT AT STRAMS DOSNT MEAN I SHOLD NOT BE ABL TO FC MAP. WTF. UNFAIR PEPPY PLS.
Zare

GladiOol wrote:

Mak stream function for user definalble opton


HEY GUIS. I HAVE TRUBLE WITH STREAMS. THEY R FAST AND MY MOUSE NO GOOD LOL. I CLIK AND CLIC BUT NOT FASTEST ENOGH. SO PLS MAK STRAMS FOR USER DFINALBE BECUZ THIS IS NO GOOD. JUST BECUS I AM BAT AT STRAMS DOSNT MEAN I SHOLD NOT BE ABL TO FC MAP. WTF. UNFAIR PEPPY PLS.
Which is basically what the "more keys for streaming" feature request is about.
Aqo

Renard wrote:

and AQO ....PRACTICE UNTIL U DIE!! xd
How to practice AR10.3 on maps above 160bpm!? DT LOL NO D:
deadbeat
i'm thinking no on this. this should be a choice my the mapper. i can understand that people play better with a higher or lower AR. however, if its too slow, Hard Rock, if its too fast, then practice. simple
Aqo
Gee would sure be nice if some people actually read the thread before posting
deadbeat

Aqo wrote:

Gee would sure be nice if some people actually read the thread before posting
i'll be honest here, i didn't. didn't even bother trying. why. cause its 6am, and i'm too tired to read through nearly 26 pages of this. i might read it at a later point. but for now, what i wrote is my view point on this request. i may change it later upon reading the discussion. but for now, what i wrote stands
Zare

Aqo wrote:

Gee would sure be nice if some people actually read the thread before posting
We're going in circles for many pages already, anyways.
Snepif

GladiOol wrote:

Mak stream function for user definalble opton


HEY GUIS. I HAVE TRUBLE WITH STREAMS. THEY R FAST AND MY MOUSE NO GOOD LOL. I CLIK AND CLIC BUT NOT FASTEST ENOGH. SO PLS MAK STRAMS FOR USER DFINALBE BECUZ THIS IS NO GOOD. JUST BECUS I AM BAT AT STRAMS DOSNT MEAN I SHOLD NOT BE ABL TO RAISE MY PP. WTF. UNFAIR PEPPY PLS.
jesse1412
Instead of reading the entire thread I'll just ask, how many considerably good players apart from tom actually support this, I really don't see many amazing players supporting this compared to amazing players who oppose.

And no I don't mean "anyone who can doubltime fc some random insanes" I'm talking about people who are actually good at setting incredible scores.
Aqo

jesus1412 wrote:

Instead of reading the entire thread I'll just ask, how many considerably good players apart from tom actually support this, I really don't see many amazing players supporting this compared to amazing players who oppose.

And no I don't mean "anyone who can doubltime fc some random insanes" I'm talking about people who are actually good at setting incredible scores.
Go read the thread. Last 2 weeks' pages would be enough.
jesse1412

Aqo wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Instead of reading the entire thread I'll just ask, how many considerably good players apart from tom actually support this, I really don't see many amazing players supporting this compared to amazing players who oppose.

And no I don't mean "anyone who can doubltime fc some random insanes" I'm talking about people who are actually good at setting incredible scores.
Go read the thread. Last 2 weeks' pages would be enough.
Name some please.
Zare
How many "good" players even read in the forum?
MillhioreF

Zarerion wrote:

How many "good" players even read in the forum?
Tom94 is probably the best player who actually reads the forum, I know he definitely doesn't represent the majority though...
Tshemmp

MillhioreF wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

How many "good" players even read in the forum?
Tom94 is probably the best player who actually reads the forum, I know he definitely doesn't represent the majority though...
yeah

Anyway, where is the problem if this gets implemented with a score reducing multiplier? Everyone wins then - apart maybe from mappers who want their maps being played with a certain AR. Yeah, be happy your map is being played at all.
bomber34

Tshemmp wrote:

yeah

Anyway, where is the problem if this gets implemented with a score reducing multiplier? Everyone wins then - apart maybe from mappers who want their maps being played with a certain AR. Yeah, be happy your map is being played at all.
I think most people complain about the idea that there is no score reduce multiplier at all :/
mm201
I've said it already that the only sane way I can think of doing this is by making the Easy mod's AR customizable. This might come along some day or another, who knows.
This thread is getting spammy so I'm going to lock it.
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