This would break CtB.
Good. Then we're agreed that Hidden and Flashlight should be worth 1.00x, because they change none of those things. Same BPM, same sliders, same distances, same OD, same drain, and the same circle size. And just like AR, once you've memorized a map, you can play it AR13, Hidden, and Flashlight with no difference from playing it any other way... because none of these things change the map in a way that makes it easier or harder, or even different. All three do exactly the same thing... control the flow of information, but not alter it. Which is a good reason to be wary of just making AR a preference... the same sort of thing is rewarded elsewhere, and things that get score rewards are considered "skill". This is not a trivial choice to make and has to be done right.theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.theowest wrote:
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
And this is why it was split from OD, before the AR a map would have would be equivalent to it's OD.haha5957 wrote:
However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
mm201 wrote:
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.Matty wrote:
If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
well said. We're trying to entertain everyone here, right? You want to be able to play a map without having to be annoyed by the one thing most people are annoyed by. The AR. Today, most of the beatmaps have a good AR but there are always some beatmaps with shitty ARs.awp wrote:
Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
Pretty much, but since everyone who makes maps doesn't know what the player wants, beatmaps will become confusing clusterfucks.mm201 wrote:
AR depends on the mapping. Taking a high AR map and lowering it will turn it into a confusing clusterfuck. Another map could be designed for the low AR, have no overlaps, have readable spacing, and work just fine.
A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.This is a skill they should develop. inb4 extreme case shit where maps not designed for low AR get their AR changed.Shael wrote:
it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9
Looks like someone have played other rhythm games. Why don't you all try the idea before you hate it? Have you guys seriously played another rhythm game with user definable ARs? Try it. See for yourself. That's what made me change my opinion on things.rickyboi wrote:
I like this idea because of all the rythm games I've played. Osu is the only one that has no adjustments for speed readings.
As Lybydose points out, the ship has already sailed for just simply allowing it as a preference now. Two of the plus mods are the same thing as AR in a different wrapper, and the other two alter it. AR is fundamentally tied to the things that give more points and thus get recognition as "skill". Which is why you can expect things like AR only to be able to be increased (as peppy brought forward) if it's just a simple preference people can set... that would help protect the value of HR, because otherwise it would be largely cancelled out for so many maps that it wouldn't be worth any bonus (even where it might still apply). This makes things more like what Henry Ford said about the Model T, "you can have any colour you want, so long as it's black". There might not be a real choice for everyone, and that would be unfair by your own reasoning.theowest wrote:
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
Actually, in this case, it's better to look at it in the way Sakura did. Most people who simply said "No" will be okay if it was negative, but would just prefer it not being implemented at all, and vice versa.theowest wrote:
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.theowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
Zarerion wrote:
Uhm...
This is seriously being discussed?
"I can't do this, because it's too hard and I'm too lazy to practice, make it easier!!"
I mean, what the fuck? This whole idea is ridicolous, it would totally destroy the whole osu!-gameplay.
Airman and bigblack with AR8 would be horrible and unreadable. Hell yeah, agrees.Makar wrote:
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.
I just saw this and it made me scratch my head. what the hell is this statementtheowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well.
nah just 31415926535897 and a few others who spam SPtheowest wrote:
Looks like a lot of people want this.
HAHAHA no. why cant we choose the FL radius at Flashlight mod then? it's the same like this e_etheowest wrote:
ctb isn't rhythm based. therefore broken.CaCtus112 wrote:
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?
More fun for everyone.
A score reducing hack/mod for everyone.theowest wrote:
a hack for everyone.
do itouranhshc wrote:
*goes to make maps ar 0*
EDIT: IT BREAKS ITtheowest wrote:
lets do it
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.MMzz wrote:
ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
In general I would love to have AR being selectable in 0.5 intervals (or even 1/3 intervals). 9.5 would be such an awesome AR for so many songs.Aqo wrote:
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.MMzz wrote:
ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
That's the kind of use an ARmod would have and I'd love to see it
Also, again, it would be nice to pick ARs higher than 10 without being forced to use DoubleTime. It's frustrating that you need to slow down a song in Audacity by 33% and then re-map it just to play with an AR higher than 10, and really makes no sense. Please remove this arbitrary limit. Keep AR(x)+HR limited to 10 like it is now but give [mappers]/[players using ARmod] the option to pick an AR higher than 10 by default (and HR would simply leave it unchanged). Preferably with increments of at least 50ms or lower (0.33 of an AR) because every tiny difference at this range makes a big change since you're nearing the human reaction limit of 200ms.
Aqo wrote:
What if I want large circles with AR10 because a map at 280 has too complex jump patterns and with AR9 it's too hard to read while with AR10 it's too hard to jump without missing? I might still play it at default settings with nomod or HR to accept the challenge in reading/jumping, but I want to first play it a little in an easier setting to get used to the pattern style it has.MMzz wrote:
ban ar10 from being selected. You should be forced to play hr Y:
That's the kind of use an ARmod would have and I'd love to see it
Wasn't that obvious from the start?ouranhshc wrote:
i'm pretty sure you proved most people's point about players would try to make it easier.
Exactly this.ztrot wrote:
ban this all together? maps that have ars that don't fit should be addressed in the modding phase no fixed by a mod.
Which is basically what the "more keys for streaming" feature request is about.GladiOol wrote:
Mak stream function for user definalble opton
HEY GUIS. I HAVE TRUBLE WITH STREAMS. THEY R FAST AND MY MOUSE NO GOOD LOL. I CLIK AND CLIC BUT NOT FASTEST ENOGH. SO PLS MAK STRAMS FOR USER DFINALBE BECUZ THIS IS NO GOOD. JUST BECUS I AM BAT AT STRAMS DOSNT MEAN I SHOLD NOT BE ABL TO FC MAP. WTF. UNFAIR PEPPY PLS.
How to practice AR10.3 on maps above 160bpm!? DT LOL NO D:Renard wrote:
and AQO ....PRACTICE UNTIL U DIE!! xd
i'll be honest here, i didn't. didn't even bother trying. why. cause its 6am, and i'm too tired to read through nearly 26 pages of this. i might read it at a later point. but for now, what i wrote is my view point on this request. i may change it later upon reading the discussion. but for now, what i wrote standsAqo wrote:
Gee would sure be nice if some people actually read the thread before posting
We're going in circles for many pages already, anyways.Aqo wrote:
Gee would sure be nice if some people actually read the thread before posting
GladiOol wrote:
Mak stream function for user definalble opton
HEY GUIS. I HAVE TRUBLE WITH STREAMS. THEY R FAST AND MY MOUSE NO GOOD LOL. I CLIK AND CLIC BUT NOT FASTEST ENOGH. SO PLS MAK STRAMS FOR USER DFINALBE BECUZ THIS IS NO GOOD. JUST BECUS I AM BAT AT STRAMS DOSNT MEAN I SHOLD NOT BE ABL TO RAISE MY PP. WTF. UNFAIR PEPPY PLS.
Go read the thread. Last 2 weeks' pages would be enough.jesus1412 wrote:
Instead of reading the entire thread I'll just ask, how many considerably good players apart from tom actually support this, I really don't see many amazing players supporting this compared to amazing players who oppose.
And no I don't mean "anyone who can doubltime fc some random insanes" I'm talking about people who are actually good at setting incredible scores.
Name some please.Aqo wrote:
Go read the thread. Last 2 weeks' pages would be enough.jesus1412 wrote:
Instead of reading the entire thread I'll just ask, how many considerably good players apart from tom actually support this, I really don't see many amazing players supporting this compared to amazing players who oppose.
And no I don't mean "anyone who can doubltime fc some random insanes" I'm talking about people who are actually good at setting incredible scores.
Tom94 is probably the best player who actually reads the forum, I know he definitely doesn't represent the majority though...Zarerion wrote:
How many "good" players even read in the forum?
yeahMillhioreF wrote:
Tom94 is probably the best player who actually reads the forum, I know he definitely doesn't represent the majority though...Zarerion wrote:
How many "good" players even read in the forum?
I think most people complain about the idea that there is no score reduce multiplier at all :/Tshemmp wrote:
yeah
Anyway, where is the problem if this gets implemented with a score reducing multiplier? Everyone wins then - apart maybe from mappers who want their maps being played with a certain AR. Yeah, be happy your map is being played at all.