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Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
50.79% 96
Yes, with a negative multiplier
21.16% 40
No
28.04% 53
Total votes: 189
Polling ended 2012-10-08 10:50:57
Polling is over and can not be voted on anymore.
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,563
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posted

Aqo wrote:

How about this: give it a score-reducing effect.
i.e. users have an option every time they play a map, to either:
1. Play it with mapper's AR, and score on it normally
2. Pick their own AR, and then score is reduced to 50% similar to EasyMod, except without an effect on circle size etc, and with letting you pick /any/ AR you want.

Also, it would be nice if there was a bigger range indeed. Instead of just 0-10 with 1x increments, 0-11 with 0.33x increments, so that you can pick 9.3, 9.6, 10, 10.3, 10.6, that would be great. It would be a fun option that people can use similar to EasyMod today without worrying about how this affects ranking. Sure, you'd be able to top-score with an AR of your choice, but lets be realistic it's not that hard to read mapper-default AR and a 50% reduction won't make this mode a popular scoring method; thus I'll be just an option for fun. I'd suggest making it unranked but since the current stance is against unranked plays, ranked with reduced score seems like the best compromise... or to put it shortly, it's win-win. You can play with whatever AR you want if you just play for fun, or you have to accept the mapper AR as part of the map difficulty when you're playing for score.

This is reasonable isn't it?
If we have a score reducing affect it would totally have my support :D
posted

Aqo wrote:

How about this: give it a score-reducing effect.
i.e. users have an option every time they play a map, to either:
1. Play it with mapper's AR, and score on it normally
2. Pick their own AR, and then score is reduced to 50% similar to EasyMod, except without an effect on circle size etc, and with letting you pick /any/ AR you want.

Also, it would be nice if there was a bigger range indeed. Instead of just 0-10 with 1x increments, 0-11 with 0.33x increments, so that you can pick 9.3, 9.6, 10, 10.3, 10.6, that would be great. It would be a fun option that people can use similar to EasyMod today without worrying about how this affects ranking. Sure, you'd be able to top-score with an AR of your choice, but lets be realistic it's not that hard to read mapper-default AR and a 50% reduction won't make this mode a popular scoring method; thus I'll be just an option for fun. I'd suggest making it unranked but since the current stance is against unranked plays, ranked with reduced score seems like the best compromise... or to put it shortly, it's win-win. You can play with whatever AR you want if you just play for fun, or you have to accept the mapper AR as part of the map difficulty when you're playing for score.

This is reasonable isn't it?
Oooor Just make Easy mod give you the option to set difficulty settings. This has been suggested before and I wish it would get more attention.

On Topic: If it reduces score, sure.
posted
No, what.

Some people find higher ARs easier than slower, and vice versa. ARs are completely subjective and should therefore be definable as an option by you.
Higher ARs does not make it harder or easier for everyone. It's up to the player.
posted
if a player has problems with AR6 but not with 10 then it should reduce scores anyway :P Anything that makes it easier for players should reduce scores ^^
Yes let's make easy mod let you choose the AR :D
posted

theowest wrote:

No, what.

Some people find higher ARs easier than slower, and vice versa. ARs are completely subjective and should therefore be definable as an option by you.
Higher ARs does not make it harder or easier for everyone. It's up to the player.
ARs have this magical thing about them

If you can read two levels of AR, the higher one will ALWAYS be easier for you regardless of whatever speed the map is.
If you can't read a certain level of AR, then it will obviously be harder for you than ARs below it that you can read.

So to put it shortly, higher ARs are generally /easier/ than lower ARs, but they have a minimum training requirement to play with and thus unavailable for some players.

Long story short: AR *is* related to map difficulty. This is not subjective. Lower AR always makes a map harder, but a higher AR will be harder than a lower AR if you can't read it at all. It's not a gray area, it's just different for each person based on their abilities at a point of time.
The point is... being able to change the AR of a map *does* change the difficulty of the map. That's why it would be unfair if this didn't affect score.
posted
Nope.

It's a matter of changing the AR to the player who can play it the best. Let's say a beatmapper picks one AR and one AR only. That means only a few people will think this AR is perfect while everyone else has to suffer.

Now, if everyone could change their AR to their own liking, everything would be fair and square.

The OD makes the beatmap harder/easier. AR does not.
posted
You are adjusting something in the map to make it easier for you; therefore, it should reduce score as a difficulty reducing mod should.

You are wrong if you say AR doesn't affect the difficulty of maps: that's the whole point of this feature request
posted
If it were going to affect the difficulty of maps, it would effect the difficulty for everyone. In this case, it doesn't.

It's subjective.
posted

theowest wrote:

If it were going to affect the difficulty of maps, it would effect the difficulty for everyone. In this case, it doesn't.

It's subjective.
What are you saying?

For some people, Halftime is harder to play as accurately because of BPM. It doesn't reduce difficulty for everybody, yet it is still a option to people who find normal BPM too hard and it reduces Difficulty. It's impossible to satisfy everybody, and theoretical difficulty reductions that don't apply to everybody will always exist as a difficulty reducing mod, so your point isn't really valid.
posted

theowest wrote:

If it were going to affect the difficulty of maps, it would effect the difficulty for everyone. In this case, it doesn't.

It's subjective.
No you kinda miss the point again.

The AR that a mapper chooses for a map is part of that map's difficulty. This is for /everyone/ who plays that map. If some people have an easier time with that AR it means they're more comfortable with it, which is on the same level of a streaming player being more comfortable in a stream map compared to a jump player, it doesn't change the fact that it's a difficulty everybody has to deal with and yet some people would be better or worse than others on it.

Changing the AR changes the difficulty of the map. Thus it should change score.
posted

Aqo wrote:

Long story short: AR *is* related to map difficulty. This is not subjective. Lower AR always makes a map harder, but a higher AR will be harder than a lower AR if you can't read it at all. It's not a gray area, it's just different for each person based on their abilities at a point of time.
Actually, that's the definition of subjective... different for each person, as opposed to objective, which would be universally the same for everyone.

But other than that, I agree with you... higher ARs are easier until they cross a subjective level. Although, I've found that the level might be lower than what you can technically read... too high AR can cross the point where a map loses most of it's read ahead... which can change things into a different game, a sort of twitchy whack-a-mole (which is easy if like and practice that, but it's a different skill set than if you're used to read ahead... so it's subjective). It can also make a map feel too jumpy, with distracting high energy approach circles on a comparatively mellow song, this can result in HD making things easier.

The thing isn't so much that AR can be a subjective factor for difficulty. Being able to change the AR means that songs can be made easier, for whatever value is appropriate subjectively, on a per user basis. That's why a score penalty might be appropriate.
posted
I'm supporting Theowests's opinion on this.

This game is more on Accuracy and Aim NOT on how fast or slow you can read the notes.

and about HR being easier when AR is lowered down- Seriously? It's still hard to get aim and get a better accuracy even with lower AR. It still fucking increases the OD , makes the cirlces smaller and adds more drain to the life. You're just limiting the players who could/should play HR which doesn't even make sense on a rythm game. There's a reason why most of Korean/Japanese Rythm games have control of the speed reading, it's because the creators want to maximize every player's potential on how they play it either be fast or slow in the end it still depends who's the most accurate player.
posted

Aqo wrote:

theowest wrote:

If it were going to affect the difficulty of maps, it would effect the difficulty for everyone. In this case, it doesn't.

It's subjective.
No you kinda miss the point again.

The AR that a mapper chooses for a map is part of that map's difficulty. This is for /everyone/ who plays that map. If some people have an easier time with that AR it means they're more comfortable with it, which is on the same level of a streaming player being more comfortable in a stream map compared to a jump player, it doesn't change the fact that it's a difficulty everybody has to deal with and yet some people would be better or worse than others on it.

Changing the AR changes the difficulty of the map. Thus it should change score.
the problem is how.
Cause someone have easier time with higher AR, someone have easier time with lower AR.

Maybe just do something similar to how I seen in Beats ( Speed multiplier.... )... like an AR multiplier, but make it "max" from 0.75x to 1.25x with jumps of 0.05x (0.75x,0.80x,0.85x and so). Maybe -0.5 to +0.5 (not a multiplier, a sum) is another idea
posted

rickyboi wrote:

I'm supporting Theowests's opinion on this.

This game is more on Accuracy and Aim NOT on how fast or slow you can read the notes.

and about HR being easier when AR is lowered down- Seriously? It's still hard to get aim and get a better accuracy even with lower AR. It still fucking increases the OD , makes the cirlces smaller and adds more drain to the life. You're just limiting the players who could/should play HR which doesn't even make sense on a rythm game. There's a reason why most of Korean/Japanese Rythm games have control of the speed reading, it's because the creators want to maximize every player's potential on how they play it either be fast or slow in the end it still depends who's the most accurate player.
Trying to the read true AR 11 with OD 10 is a shit ton harder than reading AR 9 with OD 10. Even just doing AR 10 is a decent amount harder than AR 9 and OD 10. It's just training your reaction, and it's like learning to play a certain type of pattern. For example, having sixteenth note kick sliders (that can be played like 1/2 tick notes or eight notes) can be hard to read for some people at first, but after time, you get the reaction time to understand what type of pattern it is faster and are able to adjust accordingly. Same with AR. AR is a skill, and imo it is very different from how fast those blocks/arrows/whatever move in different rhythm games.

AR imo is something kinda special and unique to osu! which I like (not because I can somewhat read the faster AR's), but I remember clearly that even when I couldn't even read AR 10 and barely AR 9.5, which was around the time this thread was made, I still completely disagreed with this.

Furthermore, this completely messes up every single possible DT/HR score out there if implemented.

Also it just feels like we are trying to progress to the norm. AR is an interesting twist on most things and keeping it that way would add more to osu! as a game imo.
posted
This is fundamentally breaks
the gameplay, very easy game
and it is, therefore, leads to
changes in the algorithm of
the scoring... A further
develop logic. Although this
idea is part of some
"ideological" project in osu!, I
would not want to see this in PC
version of the game, in which we all played,
play and will play. I do not
support.
posted
Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
posted

Aqo wrote:

Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
I'd support, but of course that won't happen since peppy is against unranked mods.
posted

Aqo wrote:

Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
I would support, if osu! was not competitive, because it gives the user more flexibility. Offline games are made to cater to pretty much as many people as possible. It's kinda like hacking offline games, no one really gives a crap, and many find it fun, too. Most of the time, offline games aren't very skill based, or don't require much skill to play decently and have fun.

Once you reach a worldwide scale with competition, you can't really take something essential out of the gameplay. Pardon this piano example, but for instance, if I were to practice my ass off playing something hard, e.g. the Mephisto Waltz or something, for a competition, and then the competition rules completely changed, so that the speed and technique required of the song is not going to be judged whatsoever, some kid could play some Bach Prelude and Fugue perfectly and extremely musically with no mistakes and beat me in the competition, despite how much more amazing my performance sounded (depending on how unclear or inaccuractely I played the notes in the Mephisto Waltz). Now, AR is a very important part of osu! as speed and technique is to piano (well, speed isn't as important, but meh). Basically what's happening is you are giving the kid who plays that Bach Prelude and Fugue to match up with some professional. In any sort of competitive thing, it is completely illogical to do such a thing unless the kid really deserves it with hard work and practice. Some people just have the piano talent, and some people don't. So if that's the case, are you agreeing that the average/pretty good piano kid is on par with the professional? Some people have better reaction times, because either they just have it, or because they actually trained it through other means, rather than perhaps some kid who sits around all day watching TV (I'm not saying that's you guys :x lol). AR is pretty similar.

Now, saying that, it makes it look like I'm mad because if this does get implemented many people who can't read fast AR will now most likely be able to rank just as high as many of the pros who mainly HR. And I do stick to that point, that YES, approach rate really does matter and mess up accuracy, but as I already stated earlier, I have had this exact mentality that allowing for approach rate to be changed is nonsense almost ever since I started playing. All I thought is "Okay, if this is how osu! is, if this is how the game is supposed to be play, I will work my way up there." When the thread was made, and I couldn't even read AR 9.5, I did not agree. (After some work, I can read the so-called AR10.33)
posted
After your entire post W1 I can't understand why you quoted my post. You didn't answer the question.

Are you for or against allowing to play with any AR you want /unranked/, i.e. you won't be able to use this for the competitive scene, only for singleplayer fun.
posted
The first three words of my monologue answered the question. The first paragraph was a little more detail the unranked aspect of this request.

The rest of the paragraphs were in response to allowing for players to change AR even for ranked plays.
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