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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option

posted
Total Posts
391

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
96
50.79%
Yes, with a negative multiplier
40
21.16%
No
53
28.04%
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,762
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
Since everyone has their own unique best AR for themselves, is there any point to keep AR on mappers side?
Readability Problem? Map is Art? Everyone have their own thought and eye/ability for such kind of game.

I want to know many opinions from mapper/players side :D

-----------------------------------------

表題-アプローチレートをユーザー側で調整できるオプションにしない？

十人十色というように、大体の人は自分に一番いいアプローチレート=AR（わっかが閉じる速度）がありますが
それをMapperサイドに置いておく意味ってなんだろう？
見やすさの問題？ 譜面は芸術かな？　誰でも自分の目や能力にあったARが有るし自分の意見もあるよね。

マッパーとプレイヤー両方からの意見、なるべく多く聞きたいので日本語でもいいので意見があれば書いてください。
もちろん反対意見も求む、というより反対意見の方が大事。

-----------------------------------------
每個人都有自己能夠讀的最適AR,是否該讓mapper握有AR的控制權?
讀譜的問題或是map本身的藝術感問題?每個人都有自己的一套想法吧?

我希望能得到mapper/player們的各方意見

-----------------------------------------

각자 자신에게 알맞는 AR이 따로 존재하기 때문에 꼭 매퍼가 AR을 정하지 않아도 된다고 생각합니다. / 가독성? 맵의 예술성? 이들의 기준은 개개인에 따라 모두 다르다고 생각됩니다. / 매퍼 그리고 플레이어 모두의 입장에서 다양한 의견을 들어보고 싶습니다 :D

(thanks KRZY)

------------------------------------------

หัวเรื่อง : ทำให้ฝ่ายผู้เล่นปรับความเร็วของ วงแหวน AR ได้ดีมั้ย ?
แต่ละท่านก็มีความถนัดไม่ตรงกัน และแต่ละคนก็มีความเร็ว AR ที่ตัวเองถนัด
แต่มัเหตผลอะไรที่ต้องวางระบบตั้งไว้ที่ฝั่งคนทำ MAP อย่างเดียว ?
เพื่อความชอบ ? เพื่อดูเป็นผลงานศิลปะของคนทำ ? แต่ว่าแต่ละคนก็มีความเร็วที่ตัวเองถนัดใช่มั้ยล่ะ ?

(thanks S i R i R u)
Ever 14
147 posts
Joined September 2010
Ever 14
It's a really interesting idea.

Some players always say AR9 to hard for them, but on the other hand I find AR9 is much easier than AR7 or AR8 for me.

It will allow me play more maps with AR9 if I can choose it myself.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,848 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
This is actually quitee an interesting idea...although would players be able to choose their own AR even with DT or HR?
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
Maybe not, there should be mapper's default AR and HR will based on that = static one.

AR change enable for no option only is solution?
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Interesting idea, but horrible in retrospect.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Approach circle speed is open to such a possibility, but the advanced time a circle spends on screen before you hit it needs to stay as it is, or unintended problems in maps such as overlaps may be introduced.

You also have to consider that faster circles means circles that start larger, which makes Flashlight easier.
Cyril Scarlet
osu! Alumni
3,877 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyril Scarlet
私のマッパー側としての意見

自分の譜面でこの曲、この配置、このリズムだからこの AR がマッチングする。
だからこの ＡＲ で作成したいしプレイして頂きたい。

もちろん自分がこの曲、配置、リズムがこのＡＲとマッチングするから
他の方もそう思うと言うのは思っていません。

個人差あるので理解は出来ます。

**********************************************************************


私のプレイヤーとしての意見

譜面作成側の意見もわかるけど、確かに個人差あるので
このＡＲ９譜面は出来るけど、あのＡＲ９は出来ない。
などと言うパターンもそう少なくは無い。

と言う事でこのアイデアは良い案なのかもしれない。
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
You also have to consider that faster circles means circles that start larger, which makes Flashlight easier.
This is my main concern regarding this...
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
It isn't hard to make AR change option for none//no-option only.
Mod play (+/- multiplayer) use AR which mapper set is solution for FL/HL become easier.

also about overlap/readability, everyone have unique brain/eye or not ?
Gomo Psivarh
584 posts
Joined December 2009
Gomo Psivarh
I ONLY support that you can customize AR and the custom AR will neutralize score bonus from mods.
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
most of old beatmaps created with ar lower than 8

and i used to ar 8-9

if this idea be true, i think i can get more score from old beatmaps
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
that's how it should've been from the start, but currently it will break the set game balance
Waryas
Waryas
Omg yes i'll play with AR10 all the time!
In most rhythm game you can set the speed without affecting the score I don't know why osu wasn't made this way..
But make this possible only for nomod otherwise people will set low AR and DT+HR everything.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose

MetalMario201 wrote:

Approach circle speed is open to such a possibility, but the advanced time a circle spends on screen before you hit it needs to stay as it is, or unintended problems in maps such as overlaps may be introduced.
If the "fade-in" time of circles remains unchanged, it would be largely pointless to customize approach rate. Why? Most players read maps and determine "hit order" based on watching the circles themselves appear, not based upon approach circles. This is why low AR Hidden is incredibly difficult, why very few people can play Flashlight (while those that can are often found hitting notes in the wrong order or hitting notes early enough to result in a miss), why Hidden is so easy that it's almost "no mod" on AR 8 or so, why there are people who hate overlapping notes, despite the approach circles still being completely visible.

So, if the advanced time a circle spends on the screen must remain the same, what about Hard Rock and Easy mods then? These both alter when circles appear and can cause stack leniency and readability issues that weren't previously present in the map. It's especially noticeable with Easy mod because most maps that aren't already "Easy" become completely unreadable. Maybe I should post a feature request to remake the Easy mod, I've been meaning to do that for a while.

Also, I believe the doubletime mod should have been set to retain the approach rate setting of the map, rather than increasing it as it does now. As it stands now, DT is difficult because it increases approach rate to be incredibly high on many maps, not because it forces you to play faster.
Viola
40 posts
Joined October 2010
Viola
マッパーはランクさせるのに苦労しているわけですし、「これは絶対AR9でやってほしい！」
というのがあるかも知れません　(mappingはしないので分かりませんが)
なので、作ったマッパーがAR8でも9でも遊べるように設定できるならいいと思います
Mercurius
Former osu! Champion: 2014
501 posts
Joined November 2010
Mercurius
曲調にマッチさせる、速さを上げて難易度を調節する、などのmapperの意図を崩してしまうのでは？

これらを踏まえて、自分は反対です。
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old

Viola wrote:

マッパーはランクさせるのに苦労しているわけですし、「これは絶対AR9でやってほしい！」
というのがあるかも知れません　(mappingはしないので分かりませんが)
なので、作ったマッパーがAR8でも9でも遊べるように設定できるならいいと思います
(trans by dvo) mapper spent much time to make own map as ranked, and there could be "play this map with AR9"
so if there is option that will allow mapper to choose changable or not ?


About this, it is impossible to ask whole mapper to activate this or not, so all or nothing is current solution.

これに関しては all or nothingで、mapperに選択可能にさせるという折衷案は現実的に不可能です。


Mercurius wrote:

曲調にマッチさせる、速さを上げて難易度を調節する、などのmapperの意図を崩してしまうのでは？

これらを踏まえて、自分は反対です。
To fit song. to adjust difficulty is mapper's though and this will break that ?
So I'm against this.


The first one is basically for mapper's thought, everyone have (like i said in first)
2nd, to use AR to adjust difficulty is intended usage of AR ?

一つ目については、曲調に合うARというものは個人の主観だよね？
2つ目についてはARを難易度調整に使うって正しい使い方なのかな？
Orgol
493 posts
Joined July 2010
Orgol
It's a good idea "Approach Rate function for user definable option".
Because it will be comfortable to play osu! than ever before (for all players).
But...what to do with up to the present online score ? :o
Last edited by Orgol , edited 1 time in total.
Rare
1,118 posts
Joined August 2010
Rare
いいアイデアだと思います。
自分は反対ですが、
mapperが決めた許容範囲でARが変更可能。
これなら自分はこの案には賛成に近づくかもしれません。
Muya
2,355 posts
Joined August 2009
Muya
star rateが変わってスコアが変わるRanked譜面もでると思うんですが、これはどう対処するのだろう・・・
tobaku2784
33 posts
Joined May 2009
tobaku2784
正直この意見には賛成か反対かと言われればどちらとも言えません。

正直ARを低くしたりすればやりやすいと言うと思いますが、スコアとかの換算をどうするんですか？という話ですね。

modとかでARを低くしたり高くしたりしてスコアを変えるのであれば話は別だと思いますが正直譜面によっては難易度が完全に変わりますしARをわざと下げてHRとかDTとかつけるのが出てきます。

もしもスコアに入れないと言うのであればspun autoみたいな扱いにすればいいと思います。しかしスコアに入れると言う話になると別ですね。輪が閉じるのが早いから難しいと言うものもあるのでそれをわざわざ簡単にしてしまうのはどうかと言う話です。難しくするのは別に僕としては反対じゃないです。

まぁ、ARを自分の設定で出来るようにする事には反対では無いです。しかしスコア等に反映させるのはどうかと思うって話ですね。練習にならいいと思います。もしスコア入れるならmodにするべきだと思います。

分かりにくい意見で申し訳ないです。
Sure
4,220 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure
Difficulty change of AR change isn't always regular.
If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old

Lunet wrote:

It's a good idea "Approach Rate function for user definable option".
Because it will be comfortable to play osu! than ever before (for all players).
But...what to do with up to the present online score ? :o
nothing, ranking is so much important for everyone and that is main part of motivation to play osu! ?



Muya wrote:

star rateが変わってスコアが変わるRanked譜面もでると思うんですが、これはどう対処するのだろう・・・
t) star rate changed and score change on ranked map ? how to treat this.

Default AR set by mapper and that is used to culc score , so no change at all.

マッパーがデフォルトのARを決めてスコア計算もそれですべてやるので問題なくない？
過去の曲とかのデフォルトARは.osuに書かれてある奴を維持。



tobaku2784 wrote:

正直この意見には賛成か反対かと言われればどちらとも言えません。
ごめん省略
ARを変えられるのはnone（ノーオプションプレイオンリー）、scoreについてはまあひとまず置いといてmodプレイについてはこれまでと一緒。
ARは本当に難易度が変わるのか、個人によって最適のARが存在する筈で、つまるところEasyやNormalの様に低いARを高くしたり
８ですら早い、７見えないみたいな人がInsaneをやれるキャパシティーあったとしても目の関係で無理＞ARを下げれるように
みたいに遊べる譜面の幅を拡げることが真の目的なのでランクスコアとかは実はあんまり関係ない話。
スコアをランクに乗せるとするならNoneオンリーで、将来的にはAR1（ビートマニアでいうノースピアタック）みたいなものから
AR１０固定のハイスピ狂までをおなじ土台で遊べるようにするのも一つの理想。


ykcarrot wrote:

Difficulty change of AR change isn't always regular.
If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
Score isn't main point of this request.



TKiller wrote:

that's how it should've been from the start, but currently it will break the set game balance
I know this is late, but if we can figure out good solution from here, it will be nice.
tobaku2784
33 posts
Joined May 2009
tobaku2784
了解です。理解しました。しかしまだ疑問なので聞いておきたいと思います。

マルチの時ぼ場合どうするんですか？皆が同じ条件の下でやって競うのがマルチの面白いところだと私は思っています。なのでARを個人個人で調整するのはどうかと思います。

あとマッパーの方々が言うようにARを調整して難易度を上げたり下げたりする話ですが、極端な話EASYをAR10でやったりInsaneをAR1でやるようなのがでてくるわけです。さすがに言いすぎですがこんな事が起こり得るわけです。この点も考えていって欲しいです。
-----
257 posts
Joined June 2008
-----
This will nicely solved one of the idea i'm current supporting:
viewtopic.php?p=828419
so yeah i'm also supporting this.

nice one dvorak :)
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol

dvorak wrote:

Score isn't main point of this request.
This is kinda my main point of not supporting this.


ykcarrot wrote:

If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
^ exactly~
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
And without scoring it's just the same as going to editor and changing it here.

Well except people won't be able to spectate you.

Duh.
waterfall
28 posts
Joined May 2009
waterfall
I think that the major problem with this is DT and HR. Unless those mods are changed, I don't think that this can work. Although it's an interesting idea, since some maps are difficult because the AR is just so low.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
At least make this possible with Easymod
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

TKiller wrote:

And without scoring it's just the same as going to editor and changing it here.

Well except people won't be able to spectate you.

Duh.
Kind of agree.
Bikko
151 posts
Joined January 2010
Bikko
This idea is preposterous to me. AR has effect for map's difficulty absolutely.

actually, some map has fast and complex combos, high density of notes, but it has low AR(OD) intentionally. this kind of intentionall low AR can makes player's confusion. on the contrary to this, low density of note and High AR can makes difficuty. This Request can breaks these intentionall difficulty of the map. NOT FOR ART, FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.

well, but in same time, yeah. I can say this idea is interesting.
however, AR has effect for map's difficulty cleary. so I suggest these if you want using this option and ranking your score.

1. The map what is older than this option, can not use this option.
2. If mapper sets AR of the map with his intentionall, mapper can use 'locking AR option' on that map.

EDIT : And we must think about Stack Leniency of the map. If player use this option freely, some position of stacked notes will be changed because of AR. I think It can makes a lot of broken Replays.

EDIT2 : 'Can use this option freely but not ranked score' can be solution maybe.
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame
Hell no.
Suzully
osu! Alumni
2,446 posts
Joined July 2010
Suzully
Hmm...I'll mention from a point of view as mapper.

I can understand the opinion that mapper want players to play by its own AR.
However in many case, mapper set AR by thinking that which AR is most readable in this mapset, and which AR is good for beginner/pro in this difficulty imo.
And also I think that it is not a problem to be selected by players.

Therefore I agree with this suggestion.
Well...actually there are some problems about score, hidden mod, etc...
Anyway it's just my opinion.
Last edited by Suzully , edited 1 time in total.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Easy makes maps harder, you get a score penalty for it.
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.

And it's only because of approach rate. How the fuck does that make any sense?

This is one of those things that I can't see ever happening though. It could have been done when Approach Rate was separated from Overall Difficulty, but for some reason, it was decided to keep AR on the map side. It's really too bad, as this would make most every map playable, especially the crappy ones made before the AR/OD split.

And really, every single other rhythm game I've ever played, including osu!'s other modes have had a way to adjust approach rate on a user basis.

Bikko wrote:

FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.
Sounds like a crappy map to me. Hide and seek maps are terrible.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
I support this if it's only for increasing AR
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
I read all posts in the discussion (except the japanese ones) but I'm still not getting the point of the request.

Are you guys asking to make AR a value chosen by the player?
In that case: hell no, are you all nuts?
If you can't read a map learn to sightread, that's a skill you have to master as well to be able to play a fair range of maps. Maps are not only jumps and streams, they require the ability to sightread stuff.
If you can't do that, improve at it.

I'm not asking people to limit streams only because I don't like/can't play them: either i get better at them or i don't play, easy as that.

Unless you're requesting this for training purposes and as an unranked mod or something: in that case I agree because it could be really useful.

If i misunderstood something, feel free to explain better what you mean.

ziin wrote:

Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
Everytime i read this i want to say this:

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.

Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Lunah_old
Lunah_old
inb4 every map 1AR and SS .

gz
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Yes, the request is to make AR editable without having to go into the osu file.

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

ziin wrote:

Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
Everytime i read this i want to say this:

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.

Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

ziin wrote:

Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.
Mods work differently depending on the type of map you're going to play.
Some maps are easier with specific mods while other may be more tedious with the same mod.
HardRock has a great difficulty gap when applied to a map with AR7 when compared to a map with AR6.

I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?

Easy could be:
  1. Circle Size -1 (one tick bigger feels like the perfect value to make things easier and not messy)
  2. HP Drain -3/-4 (makes it harder to fail, thus easier to pass)
  3. OD -2/-3 (lot more leniency for 300s and spinners, thus easier to play)
Now that the approach rate is a separate value it could just stay as it is.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?
If AR is user selectable, then Easy/Hard rock will be fixed. But honestly, at this point in the game, it's too late to fix them. Osu!'s doing fine, and this is only a wish. Even if we get something that turns it into "unranked" play, people will still play for the points. After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all? And that mode already exists in osu, thought it's probably even more tedious than easy mode.

I do find it funny how I am much better than some of the sub-1000 rankers on easy insanes, simply because they play better/are more used to higher approach rates. Of course, if you stick hard rock on there, there's a strong likelihood that they will not only do better, but I will do much worse.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom

ziin wrote:

After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all?
I dunno, for fun? I play on relaxing sometimes =3
Not going to question the rest of the message since this is the only thing that caught my attention, please carry on with yo lives.
maay
429 posts
Joined September 2009
maay
I'm with Card N'FoRcE on this one (except for the suggested changes on easy mode, I love it the way it is). I think sightreading is part of a player's skill and should stay as it is.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
HardRock mod harkens to our Ouendan heritage, and the most recognizable changes of Hard ROCK! / Karei were the smaller circles, fast AR, and 180° flip. (osu! gets the flip wrong by only flipping vertically, not 180, but that's beside the point and can't be changed now.) Removing the AR change on HardRock subverts this. Providing separate mods to control AR adds too much complication. (This request is effectively for a "custom AR" mod.)
PSPDS Eddie
457 posts
Joined November 2009
PSPDS Eddie
流れを無視して、日本語で書きこむ。
個人的にはARは調整できたほうが、これまで門前払いだった譜面もできるようになるので嬉しい。
……が、HardRockでARが高くなるように、ARは公式的に難易度の一部として組み込まれているように、私は感じる。

ランキングというのは同じ条件で競うものだからこそ意味があるのであり、
ここでARを調整できてしまうと、その前提条件が崩れてしまうようにも思える。（modは難しくして点数を上げるのでOK）
だからといってARを調整したらmodのようにスコアが変わるのも何かがおかしいと思うので（何が言いたいか分からなくなったので略
客観的に見ると自分の感情で嫌だと言ってる感じなので理論的ではないかな？
ARを変えたときのスコアの扱いに悩む感じ。いろいろ考えたけど納得する答えが浮かばない。

つまりは何が言いたいのかというと、ARを変える機能は賛成なのだが、
ランキングには反映できないようにした方がいいかな？と言うのが私の意見です。

マルチに関しては、試合の時は変えないようにすればいいし遊びの時は変えればいい。
変えているのが分かるようにして、自分たちでその都度決めていけばいいと思います。

私見なので反論は認める
AdaunanJP
AdaunanJP
NO!!
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
As much as this would benefit me, I don't want this. This is basically allowing an option to make maps easier. Everyone should have to deal with how hard it is. Bad bad idea.
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
personally, I can play AR5-9 and don't want/need this option.

But how many people are enjoying this game for difficulty, or how much % of players can see AR9+ or AR5-.

This will reduce difficulty, and could work as negative motivation for player who trained to be able to see high AR map or low AR map（include myself)
But Approach Rate isn't the option to make map more difficult as far as I understand.

In other hand, this option will expand playability for low AR / high AR attack like no-speed / high-speed play in other game.
Also all player can enjoy easy / normal with higher AR, hard insane with lower AR.

We (means who can enjoy AR9 or 10, or AR5 or lower) need to remind that we are standing on minority side :P
Also remind how many normal map are ignored due to low AR / or played with DTHR


for PSPDS Eddie

どちらかといえばHighARを下げるというよりは、Low ARを上げてNormal/Easyが誰でも楽しめるようにする方が大きい。
うちら（AR9とか10が見える人間）は少数派であるってことを理解して、残り95%も考えたほうがいいのも事実。
ノーマルとかイージーなんてDT HRなしじゃプレイできないし、middle Player（Hard辺りをメインにやる人たち）ですら
すでにノーマル以下にHR付けるのが基本になってるという現状があるよね。

後ARを上げて難易度上げるという手法ってのはARの本来の使い方じゃないわけで
その使い方をしている人に対して警鐘を鳴らす意味での提案でもある。

ついでに言えば、私は9見えるまで練習したし正直このオプションは邪魔、でも一方で自分が恐らくプレイヤープールで言う
10%以下のサイドに入っている自覚はあるので、冷徹にosu自体をを考慮するのであればこのオプションは有益。

スコアやランキング云々が大事な人達にとってはとても困る提案であることは分かってる。
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

dvorak wrote:

stuff
This all is very true and I'm all for this option.

But the main problem is not in how people will accept this, problem is that the scoring balance will be changed completely, hardrock modificator will have to get changed and lots of older records will simply look weird or even silly compared to new.

And there are no obvious solutions for this except the radical ones, such as only making this possible for maps ranked after the feature gets into osu! or just implement it for all maps without penalty and put a trollface on while not giving a damn about how people react.

I'd like to make more input into this, but I have to go soon, so I'll keep it for later.
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

AdaunanJP wrote:

NO!!
:(
Ayeen_old
316 posts
Joined October 2010
Ayeen_old
Tbh, since I played almost all difficulties in mapset (which why my plays incredibly high I manage to adapt from AR2 to AR 8 accordance to the speed of map. I see this is a good idea, but as MM said some mods must be considered before implement this.
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