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posted

Garden wrote:

hello, check as requested

General
  1. didnt read the whole thread, is there any explanation concerning slider tick rate 2 before? in some diffs they work well but some are not
    :arrow:top diff tick rate 1 → tick rate 2 *all diff
  2. Unused hitsounds reported by modding assistant: soft-slidertick3.wav, show me if it's used somewhere
    :arrow:deleted


Easy
  1. 00:11:469 (2,1,2,3) - move them to make 00:10:205 (1,1) - perfectly stacked? i think it was supposed to be like this
  2. 01:19:679 - and after: pretty sure it should be S:C2 like intro
:arrow:all fixed

Lecana
  1. 00:55:679 (1) - 00:55:758 (1) - missing finish?
:arrow:fix

Cookiezi
  1. 00:47:153 (3) - maybe nc here cuz 00:47:153 (3,4,5,6,7,8) - pattern looks independent of 00:46:837 (1,2) -
  2. 00:57:574 - finish?
  3. 01:13:679 (2) - what about making it the flipping of 01:13:363 (1) - , like 01:14:627 (1,2) -
  4. 01:23:469 (1,3) - doesn't look well if you enable stack view->https://puu.sh/xnViP/da335d1b7e.png, move 01:24:258 (3,4,1) - a bit manually for better visual
  5. 01:28:995 (2,3) - i'm not favoring the overmap here tho it's for playability
:arrow:all fixed

talked with mapper about top diff and we fixed some spacings and volumes, i can help rebubble after above points are addressed
2017-08-31 19:19 Garden: hi can i irc mod the top diff with you?
2017-08-31 19:20 eLy: ok ~
2017-08-31 19:21 Garden: most suggestions are from playing aspects :>
2017-08-31 19:22 Garden: 00:22:048 (2,3,4) - increase volume for the triplet? the triplet lacks feedback right now
2017-08-31 19:22 Garden: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1309756 Hotaru Murasaki - Re:TrymenT [Re:TraumenD]]
2017-08-31 19:23 Garden: 01:11:627 (4) - same to this note idk if it's missing some hitsound or not
2017-08-31 19:26 eLy: 00:22:048 (2,3,4) - volume 50% changed
2017-08-31 19:26 eLy: 01:11:627 (4) - add whistle
2017-08-31 19:27 Garden: 01:01:837 (7,8,1) - spacing emphasis should be on the triplet instead of 01:01:995 (1,2) - imo
2017-08-31 19:27 Garden: cuz vocal pitch is getting higher at 01:01:837 (7,8,1) -
2017-08-31 19:28 Garden: sth like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8980162 would be nice
2017-08-31 19:29 Garden: 01:03:100 (7,8,1) - similarly, it doesn't deserve so much spacing in my view
2017-08-31 19:29 Garden: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8980173 plays better maybe
2017-08-31 19:31 Garden: lastly, 01:13:679 (1,2) - this jump kinda caught me off guard because in other 1-2-1-2, jump from 2 to 1 is always higher spacing for the emphasis
2017-08-31 19:32 Garden: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8980185 adjust spacing a bit can be perfectly fine :D
2017-08-31 19:35 eLy: nice :D
2017-08-31 19:35 eLy: all changed ~
2017-08-31 19:36 Garden: okie and one more thing, why not higher od in top diff?
2017-08-31 19:37 eLy: should i lower it ?
2017-08-31 19:38 Garden: ahh no i mean why is it lower than other extra diffs
2017-08-31 19:38 eLy: oh !!!
2017-08-31 19:39 eLy: sorry ok understood !
2017-08-31 19:39 eLy: od8.3 → od9 ok?
2017-08-31 19:39 Garden: and i posted other points in thread, feel free to call me when they are addressed :>
2017-08-31 19:39 Garden: yea its fine
2017-08-31 19:39 eLy: ok!
thank you Garden ;) !!
posted
Hi, a friend of mine showed me the mapset and I think I've found something that might be a little bit helpful or maybe meaningful.

General
  1. Personally I would say the green combo doesn't fit all backgrounds very well but if you make a bit less bright it should do the trick. How about [Red = 141 | Green= 216 | Blue= 97] instead? The colour would look like *THAT*


Re:TraumenD
  1. The difficulty name scares a life out of me to be honest. ;_;
  2. Personally I don't understand why this difficulty has a lower HP setting as it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the set. Any chances to make it HP7? x'D
  3. 00:05:311 (2,3) - Purely from the playing perspective the cursor movement would be smoother and more natural/intuitive from the patterning side if you CTRL+G it so the from-the-right-to-the-left flow were used consistently through the whole combo section here, 00:05:153 (1,2,3,4,5) - don't you think?
  4. 00:07:679 (1) - 00:08:627 (4) - These would work nicer if singly CTRL+G'd as the circular flow would be implemented for the whole gray combo section which looks like it has been used but then changed from my personal point of view.
  5. 01:22:048 (4) - In my opinion the circle should be placed more to the right, for example [X=360 | Y=264] (saying simply, the same XY position as of this note's 01:23:469 (1) - ) for the nicer emphasis on the vocal pitch, you know, the voice goes a bit higher so a little jump would work really nice here. :3
  6. 01:29:627 - And I really wish there were a circle to be clicked for the sake of continuing the audible vocal here. Now it feels pretty much empty. ;<
  7. 01:33:100 (3) - I would recommend you use a new combo here as the HP drain might be a little bit damaging as the previous two objects are the sliders, also I recommend it for the personal reasons as I believe that would be better from the very visuals and the regular need of new combos.


momoko's Extra and vellya's Extra
  1. 01:36:100 (1) - Whenever I feel the reverse is a good idea here I strongly believe that using a 1/8 reversing slider is a better option as it reflects the music better with the sharper sound.


So that's all I found and thought that was worth mentioning. I quite like the maps even though I usually don't like anything harder than two-star maps. Good luck with the qualification process girls and boys! \:3/
posted

Krfawy wrote:

Hi, a friend of mine showed me the mapset and I think I've found something that might be a little bit helpful or maybe meaningful.

General
  1. Personally I would say the green combo doesn't fit all backgrounds very well but if you make a bit less bright it should do the trick. How about [Red = 141 | Green= 216 | Blue= 97] instead? The colour would look like *THAT*
    :arrow:no change


Re:TraumenD
  1. The difficulty name scares a life out of me to be honest. ;_;
  2. Personally I don't understand why this difficulty has a lower HP setting as it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the set. Any chances to make it HP7? x'D
    :arrow:fix
  3. 00:05:311 (2,3) - Purely from the playing perspective the cursor movement would be smoother and more natural/intuitive from the patterning side if you CTRL+G it so the from-the-right-to-the-left flow were used consistently through the whole combo section here, 00:05:153 (1,2,3,4,5) - don't you think?

    :arrow:I don't think so
  4. 00:07:679 (1) - 00:08:627 (4) - These would work nicer if singly CTRL+G'd as the circular flow would be implemented for the whole gray combo section which looks like it has been used but then changed from my personal point of view.

    :arrow:fix
  5. 01:22:048 (4) - In my opinion the circle should be placed more to the right, for example [X=360 | Y=264] (saying simply, the same XY position as of this note's 01:23:469 (1) - ) for the nicer emphasis on the vocal pitch, you know, the voice goes a bit higher so a little jump would work really nice here. :3

    :arrow:fix
  6. 01:29:627 - And I really wish there were a circle to be clicked for the sake of continuing the audible vocal here. Now it feels pretty much empty. ;<

    :arrow:add circle
  7. 01:33:100 (3) - I would recommend you use a new combo here as the HP drain might be a little bit damaging as the previous two objects are the sliders, also I recommend it for the personal reasons as I believe that would be better from the very visuals and the regular need of new combos.

    :arrow:keep


momoko's Extra and vellya's Extra
  1. 01:36:100 (1) - Whenever I feel the reverse is a good idea here I strongly believe that using a 1/8 reversing slider is a better option as it reflects the music better with the sharper sound.

    :arrow:I don't think so


So that's all I found and thought that was worth mentioning. I quite like the maps even though I usually don't like anything harder than two-star maps. Good luck with the qualification process girls and boys! \:3/
posted
Lecana
00:55:679 (1) - is still missing finish

Cookie
01:29:153 (2) - still a ghost note following nothing, i suggest same solution as other diffs (delete 01:29:153 (2) - and extend 01:28:521 (1) - )

should be all now
posted

Garden wrote:

Lecana
00:55:679 (1) - is still missing finish

Cookie
01:29:153 (2) - still a ghost note following nothing, i suggest same solution as other diffs (delete 01:29:153 (2) - and extend 01:28:521 (1) - )

should be all now
:arrow:  ALL FIXED
posted
b
posted

Garden wrote:

b
thank yooooou ><
posted
This still doesn't look ready.

I'm vetoing for rhythm and overmapping, mainly. Cookiezi's diff suffers from ambiguous rhythm the most so I went into a little extra depth on that.
[ReTraumenD]
Gonna talk mainly about kiai since that's where the core issue is but before that is slider tick rate 2 really necessary cuz it makes the slider ticks on stuff like 00:07:363 (4,1) - stand out so much and it's kind of annoying. I think this goes for all diffs actually (the song doesn't have that high density so tick rate 2 is ??? to me already)

- 01:01:205 (3,5) - I don't agree with the usage of this because there is no blue tick drum here yet one is hitsounded to the end of a 1/4 slider no less, what would work better I think is just putting a triple over 01:01:205 (3,4) - and even then I can't agree with how many triples are overmapped in this kiai.
- 00:59:311 (8,1) - Should be a triple considering syncopation as well as 00:58:679 (3,4,5) - is quite similar in terms of sound here.
- 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - This rhythm doesn't exist in the song and should be adjusted accordingly. Essentially 01:02:548 - needs to go.
- 01:04:048 (6,7) - I'm not particularly fond of how 6 gets more emphasis than the clearly stronger 7 here.
- 01:04:521 (1,2) - According to 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - there should be a triple here, but in order to maintain song relevancy I'll point this out as a reference as t why the first one doesn't work.
- 01:05:311 (4,5) - 5 is stronger yet 4 has more spacing?
- 01:06:100 (2,3) - 01:06:732 (2,3) - The song doesn't call for this much of a density increase imo, replacing these with circles (or better yet sliders) would represent what the song is doing a lot better here.
- 01:08:311 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5) - Overmapped triples aside they're not consistent with each other even - considering 01:08:784 (4,5,6) - covers two vocals the triple should actually be on 01:10:048 (5,6) - instead of 01:09:732 (2,3,4) - .
- 01:10:521 (7,8) - Again not really seeing a reason for these 1/4 sliders. :?
- 01:11:627 (4,5,6) - This triple is very out of place in a 1/1 vocal + 1/2 drum section. There's no syncopation and there's no 1/4 here, so I don't think this triple is necessary.
- 01:15:258 (1,2,1) - Same here, last 1 is stronger but 2 is getting more emphasis.

Out of the kiai now, (this list is not in order.)
- 01:25:205 (2) - 01:26:469 (2) - I don't think using filler rhythm in a section this calm is very appropriate. Maybe extend 01:24:732 (1) - instead.
- 01:26:942 (4,5) - Ctrl+g rhythm to follow vocals like you were with 01:25:995 (1,2,3) -
- 00:23:311 (2,3) - 00:25:837 (2,3,4) - Ctrl+g this rhythm to follow more of the piano with sliders, bringing it more in focus. (for all cases?)
- 00:26:942 (2) - Not sure why here you decided against using a 1/2 slider even though there's a pretty notable sound on the end. Would recommend making the end here clickable.
- 00:32:153 (3,4,5) - Triple isn't needed here, there's no syncopation nor 1/4.
- 00:44:153 (6) - Lacking in emphasis here compared to 00:44:469 (2,3) -
- 00:46:048 (4,5,6) - Another unneeded triple.
- 00:50:153 (5,6,7) - ^ and I'll stop pointing these out.

Overall the diff is still really overmapped, especially the kiai with cases like 01:00:416 (7,8,1) - 01:01:205 (3,4) - 01:02:548 (4,5) - 01:06:100 (2,3) - etc and I think it would better fit the song were these removed and replaced with circles or sliders depending on what I said in the mod.

Can we also talk about some of the other diffs?
[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:33:258 (2,3,4,5) - This rhythm dilutes vocals a lot like 00:33:732 - is skipped 00:33:258 (2,3) - is all circles so you can't really tell what's being followed either. Would recommend https://i.imgur.com/I3MFoML.png instead.
- 00:37:600 - Sometimes these are silenced other times not 00:30:021 - 00:24:969 - would be nice to be consistent.
- 00:40:521 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - This doesn't really follow vocals either since 00:41:469 - is unclickable.
- 00:41:627 (4,5,1,2) - Triple emphasizing 1 yet 2 has the piano on it?
- 00:45:890 (4,5,6,7,8) - So much piano keysounding but the rhythm here doesn't fit that at all, which is essentially what the song is doing anyways, and vocals are held here so the only other layer realistically to follow is piano but it starts off unclickable 00:46:048 - and 00:46:363 (6,7,8) - kinda dilutes it, what would be more clear is https://i.imgur.com/iEBW6Ja.png if you're going for piano.
- 00:47:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Sidenote making the gradual spacing increase more noticeable would be cool here. https://i.imgur.com/uD2n9Ep.jpg
- 00:56:311 (1,2,3,4,5) - This stream isn't in the sooonnngggg it shouldn't be there. :?
- 01:00:416 (3,4,5) - Suffers from the same overmapping stuff as the topdiff.
- 01:01:048 (3) - Reverse leaves the stronger vocal on the end of the slider, which isn't consistent with 01:01:837 (8) -
- 01:01:679 (6,7,8,1) - There is syncopation but not where the triple is now, it would make more sense to move it to 01:01:916 -
- 01:04:521 (6) - Pretty sure there should be an NC here?
- 01:06:416 (5,6,7,8,9) - This doesn't exist in the song, I don't think a stream is fitting for this part of the song where intensity is actually decreasing rather than increasing.
- 01:08:548 (2,3) - Similarly unneeded triples as topdiff.
- 01:09:574 (1,2,3) - This just plays weird, white tick triples on downbeats are very situational and play weird even on songs that have them. Considering this doesn't actually exist in the song it would make sense to remove.
- 01:10:837 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - More emphasis on 2 consistently despite 1 being stronger spacing-wise. Would recommend adjusting these to be the opposite.
- 01:12:416 (2,3,4) - No triple here but 01:12:574 (4,6) - looks pretty gross on autostack, consider moving them?
- 01:16:521 (5,6,7,8) - This is a very random-looking flow change, 01:16:995 (8) - doesn't stand out at all and it plays questionably relative to the song considering 01:15:890 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is all one paragraph which should use the same jump flow conventionally etc.
- 01:19:679 (1,2,3,4,5) - This rhythm isn't quite what the song is doing either, more accurately: https://i.imgur.com/tBJbPDl.png
- 01:23:311 (4,5,1) - Density increase on a calm section in the song doesn't seem fitting imo, would remove these triples.
- 01:28:521 (6) - Pretty sure an NC should be here?

There's similar overmapping in litoluna's Insane 01:09:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 01:09:890 (6,7,8) - 01:11:153 (2,3,4) - as there is in vellya's Extra: 01:02:942 (1,2,3,4,1) - 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) -
[ ]

Still too much overmapping - doesn't fit the song in the kiai sections at all and some questionable emphasis in the kiai as well. I just happened to notice those streams in Cookiezi's diff as well didn't exist in the song so I think that's worth mentioning too. I could have modded the rest but I felt the two mentioned diffs were worth looking at as a more extreme example of why this set isn't ready yet. There is probably a lot more work that could be done on Cookiezi's and vellya's part (idk how but vellya's seems more overmapped than topdiff in parts so..).

As a result I am vetoing this set for now, like all the others, because I feel like it's really necessary to improve this before it gets pushed further. I do realize that there have been many vetoes already, but this is due to you not attempting to reach a compromise and just finding other bns that agree with you. I for one don't think this is a viable tactic, since you will eventually run out of willing bns to bubble this (should be dubbed the "after rain effect"), so I suggest actually finding a compromise with either myself or some of the prior veto-holding bns. If you are willing, I am always free to be sent a forum PM. I don't have time this week but on the weekend I can see if there's a way for me to help out.

This isn't meant as a personal attack or a bash to you in any way, but I've been following this set for a while since Lasse popped it and I can't consciously let this through. :?

I hope we can reach an agreement.
posted
I hope you guys can really reach an agreement not only say what you want to see in mapping.
According to another mod mir do in another map i can see this person's mapping concept is totally different from you ely.
So personally i think the vetoing has no sense, this is not attack, just tell you two how big this difference is.
On the other hand, mir's mod make me feel he can only mod what he is good at mapping or modding, he can't do an effective mod when there is a big difference between others and him.

All in all, i suggest you stop rank processing, then be away from this funny community for some days, forget this map and let it be graveyarded, finally you will find the beauty of the world.



Good luck, best wishes to all people here.

Bye.
posted
I agree with Kinomi.

What ever you want to do eLy, goodluck to you ~
posted
hi, as a dude who has a Very Different Mapping Style from Mir, hopefully i can shed another perspective on the issues the map has. This is all for ReTraumend.

Please note that I think this map is trying for something nice, but it just needs help. It's not a bad map, it just has some major flaws people can see but can't really explain well. Because most people suck at modding.

Again, this seems to be an issue of "Placing patterns over the music rather than with the music." Although this map tries very hard and often succeeds, it has many flaws that a lot of people can see but not many can explain.

The map itself is fine. It's clean and structured well - but it's not structured the way the music is. This is something that is very very obvious to any experienced mapper or modder, but it's hard for players to care or notice and it's hard to explain to less experienced mappers and modders.

For example, 00:02:627 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - is a very nice set of patterns. however, the music itself actually skips over a beat on 00:04:205 - specifically to drop emphasis so that the third pattern can come back up in pitch. You actually showed this in both the hitsounding and the pattern of movement - the first pattern is a zig-zag, the second is a counterclockwise loop, the third is another zig-zag. But the extra click can really stick out and makes all three patterns "look" the same, even if they aren't. You're being too subtle, basically. Even something as simple as replacing 00:04:048 (2,3) - with a 1/2 slider that blankets 00:04:837 (5) - can bring the entire pattern into the light and really clarify what you're going for.

When you're mapping with additive hitsounds and rhythms, you need to be very careful and very obvious. That comment above was the first fucking three patterns of the map, and got a paragraph explaining why changing two circles into a slider would be a good idea. It's no wonder most people wouldn't want to go over the entire song and try to explain what they feel could be improved. Especially since eLy is very stubborn and doesn't like to change 'just because someone said so', and especially since most modders, even in the BN and QAT, could not mod like this.

This gets far harder and more complicated the further you go into the map - eLy keeps adding more to the melody and supplementing what's already there, but makes some mistakes (Either from just putting in patterns that don't quite fit what the music structure is, or ignoring the musical patterns outright) in following the structure of the song and while it's extremely hard to just select a pile of notes and say 'this is wrong/off', it's extremely easy to feel that "something here is off" and that's why you get a lot of objections from this.

This kind of thing is subtle and very hard to pin down, and never appears in most mods because it's actually quite hard to just select a pile of notes and go "fix it by doing this" - it's a conceptual problem and the language barriers don't help at all.


And yes, this kind of "problem" with mapping mostly doesn't even exist in most asian circles (the shear concept of "maps should satisfy mappers too, not just players" is utterly alien to their general mindset while mapping) - it's one of the major problems the asian and european mapping communities have with eachother's maps - but this is a global game and people should discuss their differences as best they can rather than segregate themselves into two parties.
posted

Mir wrote:

This still doesn't look ready.

I'm vetoing for rhythm and overmapping, mainly. Cookiezi's diff suffers from ambiguous rhythm the most so I went into a little extra depth on that.
[ReTraumenD]
Gonna talk mainly about kiai since that's where the core issue is but before that is slider tick rate 2 really necessary cuz it makes the slider ticks on stuff like 00:07:363 (4,1) - stand out so much and it's kind of annoying. I think this goes for all diffs actually (the song doesn't have that high density so tick rate 2 is ??? to me already)

:arrow: bassdrum hitsounds are used on ticks in other difficulty
i just use tickrate 2 for consistency in difficulties


- 01:01:205 (3,5) - I don't agree with the usage of this because there is no blue tick drum here yet one is hitsounded to the end of a 1/4 slider no less, what would work better I think is just putting a triple over 01:01:205 (3,4) - and even then I can't agree with how many triples are overmapped in this kiai.
- 00:59:311 (8,1) - Should be a triple considering syncopation as well as 00:58:679 (3,4,5) - is quite similar in terms of sound here.
- 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - This rhythm doesn't exist in the song and should be adjusted accordingly. Essentially 01:02:548 - needs to go.
- 01:04:048 (6,7) - I'm not particularly fond of how 6 gets more emphasis than the clearly stronger 7 here.
- 01:04:521 (1,2) - According to 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - there should be a triple here, but in order to maintain song relevancy I'll point this out as a reference as t why the first one doesn't work.
- 01:05:311 (4,5) - 5 is stronger yet 4 has more spacing?
- 01:06:100 (2,3) - 01:06:732 (2,3) - The song doesn't call for this much of a density increase imo, replacing these with circles (or better yet sliders) would represent what the song is doing a lot better here.
- 01:08:311 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5) - Overmapped triples aside they're not consistent with each other even - considering 01:08:784 (4,5,6) - covers two vocals the triple should actually be on 01:10:048 (5,6) - instead of 01:09:732 (2,3,4) - .
- 01:10:521 (7,8) - Again not really seeing a reason for these 1/4 sliders. :?
- 01:11:627 (4,5,6) - This triple is very out of place in a 1/1 vocal + 1/2 drum section. There's no syncopation and there's no 1/4 here, so I don't think this triple is necessary.
- 01:15:258 (1,2,1) - Same here, last 1 is stronger but 2 is getting more emphasis.

Out of the kiai now, (this list is not in order.)
- 01:25:205 (2) - 01:26:469 (2) - I don't think using filler rhythm in a section this calm is very appropriate. Maybe extend 01:24:732 (1) - instead.

:arrow:i don't want to extend here, no change

- 01:26:942 (4,5) - Ctrl+g rhythm to follow vocals like you were with 01:25:995 (1,2,3) -
- 00:23:311 (2,3) - 00:25:837 (2,3,4) - Ctrl+g this rhythm to follow more of the piano with sliders, bringing it more in focus. (for all cases?)
- 00:26:942 (2) - Not sure why here you decided against using a 1/2 slider even though there's a pretty notable sound on the end. Would recommend making the end here clickable.
- 00:32:153 (3,4,5) - Triple isn't needed here, there's no syncopation nor 1/4.

:arrow:it is a turning point before changing melody a bit so it isn't breaking music theory.
and osu! is a rhythm game. it is not big problem to have this kind of triple. also vellya did same for this rhythm


- 00:44:153 (6) - Lacking in emphasis here compared to 00:44:469 (2,3) -
- 00:46:048 (4,5,6) - Another unneeded triple.
- 00:50:153 (5,6,7) - ^ and I'll stop pointing these out.

Overall the diff is still really overmapped, especially the kiai with cases like 01:00:416 (7,8,1) - 01:01:205 (3,4) - 01:02:548 (4,5) - 01:06:100 (2,3) - etc and I think it would better fit the song were these removed and replaced with circles or sliders depending on what I said in the mod.

Can we also talk about some of the other diffs?
[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:33:258 (2,3,4,5) - This rhythm dilutes vocals a lot like 00:33:732 - is skipped 00:33:258 (2,3) - is all circles so you can't really tell what's being followed either. Would recommend https://i.imgur.com/I3MFoML.png instead.
- 00:37:600 - Sometimes these are silenced other times not 00:30:021 - 00:24:969 - would be nice to be consistent.
- 00:40:521 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - This doesn't really follow vocals either since 00:41:469 - is unclickable.
- 00:41:627 (4,5,1,2) - Triple emphasizing 1 yet 2 has the piano on it?
- 00:45:890 (4,5,6,7,8) - So much piano keysounding but the rhythm here doesn't fit that at all, which is essentially what the song is doing anyways, and vocals are held here so the only other layer realistically to follow is piano but it starts off unclickable 00:46:048 - and 00:46:363 (6,7,8) - kinda dilutes it, what would be more clear is https://i.imgur.com/iEBW6Ja.png if you're going for piano.
- 00:47:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Sidenote making the gradual spacing increase more noticeable would be cool here. https://i.imgur.com/uD2n9Ep.jpg
- 00:56:311 (1,2,3,4,5) - This stream isn't in the sooonnngggg it shouldn't be there. :?
- 01:00:416 (3,4,5) - Suffers from the same overmapping stuff as the topdiff.
- 01:01:048 (3) - Reverse leaves the stronger vocal on the end of the slider, which isn't consistent with 01:01:837 (8) -
- 01:01:679 (6,7,8,1) - There is syncopation but not where the triple is now, it would make more sense to move it to 01:01:916 -
- 01:04:521 (6) - Pretty sure there should be an NC here?
- 01:06:416 (5,6,7,8,9) - This doesn't exist in the song, I don't think a stream is fitting for this part of the song where intensity is actually decreasing rather than increasing.
- 01:08:548 (2,3) - Similarly unneeded triples as topdiff.
- 01:09:574 (1,2,3) - This just plays weird, white tick triples on downbeats are very situational and play weird even on songs that have them. Considering this doesn't actually exist in the song it would make sense to remove.
- 01:10:837 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - More emphasis on 2 consistently despite 1 being stronger spacing-wise. Would recommend adjusting these to be the opposite.
- 01:12:416 (2,3,4) - No triple here but 01:12:574 (4,6) - looks pretty gross on autostack, consider moving them?
- 01:16:521 (5,6,7,8) - This is a very random-looking flow change, 01:16:995 (8) - doesn't stand out at all and it plays questionably relative to the song considering 01:15:890 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is all one paragraph which should use the same jump flow conventionally etc.
- 01:19:679 (1,2,3,4,5) - This rhythm isn't quite what the song is doing either, more accurately: https://i.imgur.com/tBJbPDl.png
- 01:23:311 (4,5,1) - Density increase on a calm section in the song doesn't seem fitting imo, would remove these triples.
- 01:28:521 (6) - Pretty sure an NC should be here?



There's similar overmapping in litoluna's Insane 01:09:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 01:09:890 (6,7,8) - 01:11:153 (2,3,4) - as there is in vellya's Extra: 01:02:942 (1,2,3,4,1) - 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) -

:arrow:I think that this level is not a big problem

:arrow:All others changed
posted

Shiirn wrote:

hi, as a dude who has a Very Different Mapping Style from Mir, hopefully i can shed another perspective on the issues the map has. This is all for ReTraumend.

Please note that I think this map is trying for something nice, but it just needs help. It's not a bad map, it just has some major flaws people can see but can't really explain well. Because most people suck at modding.

Again, this seems to be an issue of "Placing patterns over the music rather than with the music." Although this map tries very hard and often succeeds, it has many flaws that a lot of people can see but not many can explain.

The map itself is fine. It's clean and structured well - but it's not structured the way the music is. This is something that is very very obvious to any experienced mapper or modder, but it's hard for players to care or notice and it's hard to explain to less experienced mappers and modders.

For example, 00:02:627 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - is a very nice set of patterns. however, the music itself actually skips over a beat on 00:04:205 - specifically to drop emphasis so that the third pattern can come back up in pitch. You actually showed this in both the hitsounding and the pattern of movement - the first pattern is a zig-zag, the second is a counterclockwise loop, the third is another zig-zag. But the extra click can really stick out and makes all three patterns "look" the same, even if they aren't. You're being too subtle, basically. Even something as simple as replacing 00:04:048 (2,3) - with a 1/2 slider that blankets 00:04:837 (5) - can bring the entire pattern into the light and really clarify what you're going for.

When you're mapping with additive hitsounds and rhythms, you need to be very careful and very obvious. That comment above was the first fucking three patterns of the map, and got a paragraph explaining why changing two circles into a slider would be a good idea. It's no wonder most people wouldn't want to go over the entire song and try to explain what they feel could be improved. Especially since eLy is very stubborn and doesn't like to change 'just because someone said so', and especially since most modders, even in the BN and QAT, could not mod like this.

This gets far harder and more complicated the further you go into the map - eLy keeps adding more to the melody and supplementing what's already there, but makes some mistakes (Either from just putting in patterns that don't quite fit what the music structure is, or ignoring the musical patterns outright) in following the structure of the song and while it's extremely hard to just select a pile of notes and say 'this is wrong/off', it's extremely easy to feel that "something here is off" and that's why you get a lot of objections from this.

This kind of thing is subtle and very hard to pin down, and never appears in most mods because it's actually quite hard to just select a pile of notes and go "fix it by doing this" - it's a conceptual problem and the language barriers don't help at all.


And yes, this kind of "problem" with mapping mostly doesn't even exist in most asian circles (the shear concept of "maps should satisfy mappers too, not just players" is utterly alien to their general mindset while mapping) - it's one of the major problems the asian and european mapping communities have with eachother's maps - but this is a global game and people should discuss their differences as best they can rather than segregate themselves into two parties.
posted
Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
posted
I mean you just deleted the diffs everyone had issues with so there are no problems really anymore.

What can I even say at this point lol.

I was hoping to come to some agreement but this is basically avoiding the problem, which is a way to do it in its own right it just isn't the best way imo.

As unfortunate as it is you might as well just go on with the set I guess but I would really recommend vellya tone down the overmapping on their diff too. Since stuff like 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - is a bit overboard imo.
posted

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
it is not emotional, i just tired of this situation.
i would drop my difficulty rather than change all those things and become another style which i don't like.

also same with cookie.
posted
and at least add them to creator's words...
posted

eLy wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.
it is not emotional, i just tired of this situation.
i would drop my difficulty rather than change all those things and become another style which i don't like.

also same with cookie.
your style can become better with other people


are you saying other people cannot make you better? that you are already perfect? a lot of mods are trying to change you, yes, but a lot of mods are trying to make you better too

part of mapping is recognizing what will help you and what will not

if you cannot do that, if you just reject any sort of suggestions to how you map, you cannot improve as a mapper and you will always face these problems with every map you make
posted

Mir wrote:

I mean you just deleted the diffs everyone had issues with so there are no problems really anymore.

What can I even say at this point lol.

I was hoping to come to some agreement but this is basically avoiding the problem, which is a way to do it in its own right it just isn't the best way imo.

As unfortunate as it is you might as well just go on with the set I guess but I would really recommend vellya tone down the overmapping on their diff too. Since stuff like 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - is a bit overboard imo.

:arrow:i'm fine with this way
posted

Shiirn wrote:

your style can become better with other people


are you saying other people cannot make you better? that you are already perfect? a lot of mods are trying to change you, yes, but a lot of mods are trying to make you better too

part of mapping is recognizing what will help you and what will not

if you cannot do that, if you just reject any sort of suggestions to how you map, you cannot improve as a mapper and you will always face these problems with every map you make
i never said they can't help me, i just said for some specific pattern and specific mods which i think ok and want to keep but also decent amount people complaining through ranking process. don't exaggerate, in fact i fixed a lot of things so far, and what are you saying now?

all mods are only a opinion also i have mine. i have right to reject if it doesn't looks improving my map after checking.
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