Mir wrote:

This still doesn't look ready.

I'm vetoing for rhythm and overmapping, mainly. Cookiezi's diff suffers from ambiguous rhythm the most so I went into a little extra depth on that.
[ReTraumenD]
Gonna talk mainly about kiai since that's where the core issue is but before that is slider tick rate 2 really necessary cuz it makes the slider ticks on stuff like 00:07:363 (4,1) - stand out so much and it's kind of annoying. I think this goes for all diffs actually (the song doesn't have that high density so tick rate 2 is ??? to me already)

bassdrum hitsounds are used on ticks in other difficulty
i just use tickrate 2 for consistency in difficulties

- 01:01:205 (3,5) - I don't agree with the usage of this because there is no blue tick drum here yet one is hitsounded to the end of a 1/4 slider no less, what would work better I think is just putting a triple over 01:01:205 (3,4) - and even then I can't agree with how many triples are overmapped in this kiai.
- 00:59:311 (8,1) - Should be a triple considering syncopation as well as 00:58:679 (3,4,5) - is quite similar in terms of sound here.
- 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - This rhythm doesn't exist in the song and should be adjusted accordingly. Essentially 01:02:548 - needs to go.
- 01:04:048 (6,7) - I'm not particularly fond of how 6 gets more emphasis than the clearly stronger 7 here.
- 01:04:521 (1,2) - According to 01:02:311 (3,4,5) - there should be a triple here, but in order to maintain song relevancy I'll point this out as a reference as t why the first one doesn't work.
- 01:05:311 (4,5) - 5 is stronger yet 4 has more spacing?
- 01:06:100 (2,3) - 01:06:732 (2,3) - The song doesn't call for this much of a density increase imo, replacing these with circles (or better yet sliders) would represent what the song is doing a lot better here.
- 01:08:311 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5) - Overmapped triples aside they're not consistent with each other even - considering 01:08:784 (4,5,6) - covers two vocals the triple should actually be on 01:10:048 (5,6) - instead of 01:09:732 (2,3,4) - .
- 01:10:521 (7,8) - Again not really seeing a reason for these 1/4 sliders.
- 01:11:627 (4,5,6) - This triple is very out of place in a 1/1 vocal + 1/2 drum section. There's no syncopation and there's no 1/4 here, so I don't think this triple is necessary.
- 01:15:258 (1,2,1) - Same here, last 1 is stronger but 2 is getting more emphasis.

Out of the kiai now, (this list is not in order.)
- 01:25:205 (2) - 01:26:469 (2) - I don't think using filler rhythm in a section this calm is very appropriate. Maybe extend 01:24:732 (1) - instead.

i don't want to extend here, no change

- 01:26:942 (4,5) - Ctrl+g rhythm to follow vocals like you were with 01:25:995 (1,2,3) -
- 00:23:311 (2,3) - 00:25:837 (2,3,4) - Ctrl+g this rhythm to follow more of the piano with sliders, bringing it more in focus. (for all cases?)
- 00:26:942 (2) - Not sure why here you decided against using a 1/2 slider even though there's a pretty notable sound on the end. Would recommend making the end here clickable.
- 00:32:153 (3,4,5) - Triple isn't needed here, there's no syncopation nor 1/4.

it is a turning point before changing melody a bit so it isn't breaking music theory.
and osu! is a rhythm game. it is not big problem to have this kind of triple. also vellya did same for this rhythm


- 00:44:153 (6) - Lacking in emphasis here compared to 00:44:469 (2,3) -
- 00:46:048 (4,5,6) - Another unneeded triple.
- 00:50:153 (5,6,7) - ^ and I'll stop pointing these out.

Overall the diff is still really overmapped, especially the kiai with cases like 01:00:416 (7,8,1) - 01:01:205 (3,4) - 01:02:548 (4,5) - 01:06:100 (2,3) - etc and I think it would better fit the song were these removed and replaced with circles or sliders depending on what I said in the mod.

Can we also talk about some of the other diffs?
[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:33:258 (2,3,4,5) - This rhythm dilutes vocals a lot like 00:33:732 - is skipped 00:33:258 (2,3) - is all circles so you can't really tell what's being followed either. Would recommend https://i.imgur.com/I3MFoML.png instead.
- 00:37:600 - Sometimes these are silenced other times not 00:30:021 - 00:24:969 - would be nice to be consistent.
- 00:40:521 (1,2,3,4,5,1) - This doesn't really follow vocals either since 00:41:469 - is unclickable.
- 00:41:627 (4,5,1,2) - Triple emphasizing 1 yet 2 has the piano on it?
- 00:45:890 (4,5,6,7,8) - So much piano keysounding but the rhythm here doesn't fit that at all, which is essentially what the song is doing anyways, and vocals are held here so the only other layer realistically to follow is piano but it starts off unclickable 00:46:048 - and 00:46:363 (6,7,8) - kinda dilutes it, what would be more clear is https://i.imgur.com/iEBW6Ja.png if you're going for piano.
- 00:47:153 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Sidenote making the gradual spacing increase more noticeable would be cool here. https://i.imgur.com/uD2n9Ep.jpg
- 00:56:311 (1,2,3,4,5) - This stream isn't in the sooonnngggg it shouldn't be there.
- 01:00:416 (3,4,5) - Suffers from the same overmapping stuff as the topdiff.
- 01:01:048 (3) - Reverse leaves the stronger vocal on the end of the slider, which isn't consistent with 01:01:837 (8) -
- 01:01:679 (6,7,8,1) - There is syncopation but not where the triple is now, it would make more sense to move it to 01:01:916 -
- 01:04:521 (6) - Pretty sure there should be an NC here?
- 01:06:416 (5,6,7,8,9) - This doesn't exist in the song, I don't think a stream is fitting for this part of the song where intensity is actually decreasing rather than increasing.
- 01:08:548 (2,3) - Similarly unneeded triples as topdiff.
- 01:09:574 (1,2,3) - This just plays weird, white tick triples on downbeats are very situational and play weird even on songs that have them. Considering this doesn't actually exist in the song it would make sense to remove.
- 01:10:837 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - More emphasis on 2 consistently despite 1 being stronger spacing-wise. Would recommend adjusting these to be the opposite.
- 01:12:416 (2,3,4) - No triple here but 01:12:574 (4,6) - looks pretty gross on autostack, consider moving them?
- 01:16:521 (5,6,7,8) - This is a very random-looking flow change, 01:16:995 (8) - doesn't stand out at all and it plays questionably relative to the song considering 01:15:890 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is all one paragraph which should use the same jump flow conventionally etc.
- 01:19:679 (1,2,3,4,5) - This rhythm isn't quite what the song is doing either, more accurately: https://i.imgur.com/tBJbPDl.png
- 01:23:311 (4,5,1) - Density increase on a calm section in the song doesn't seem fitting imo, would remove these triples.
- 01:28:521 (6) - Pretty sure an NC should be here?



There's similar overmapping in litoluna's Insane 01:09:258 (1,2,3,4,5) - 01:09:890 (6,7,8) - 01:11:153 (2,3,4) - as there is in vellya's Extra: 01:02:942 (1,2,3,4,1) - 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) -

I think that this level is not a big problem

All others changed

Shiirn wrote:

hi, as a dude who has a Very Different Mapping Style from Mir, hopefully i can shed another perspective on the issues the map has. This is all for ReTraumend.

Please note that I think this map is trying for something nice, but it just needs help. It's not a bad map, it just has some major flaws people can see but can't really explain well. Because most people suck at modding.

Again, this seems to be an issue of "Placing patterns over the music rather than with the music." Although this map tries very hard and often succeeds, it has many flaws that a lot of people can see but not many can explain.

The map itself is fine. It's clean and structured well - but it's not structured the way the music is. This is something that is very very obvious to any experienced mapper or modder, but it's hard for players to care or notice and it's hard to explain to less experienced mappers and modders.

For example, 00:02:627 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - is a very nice set of patterns. however, the music itself actually skips over a beat on 00:04:205 - specifically to drop emphasis so that the third pattern can come back up in pitch. You actually showed this in both the hitsounding and the pattern of movement - the first pattern is a zig-zag, the second is a counterclockwise loop, the third is another zig-zag. But the extra click can really stick out and makes all three patterns "look" the same, even if they aren't. You're being too subtle, basically. Even something as simple as replacing 00:04:048 (2,3) - with a 1/2 slider that blankets 00:04:837 (5) - can bring the entire pattern into the light and really clarify what you're going for.

When you're mapping with additive hitsounds and rhythms, you need to be very careful and very obvious. That comment above was the first fucking three patterns of the map, and got a paragraph explaining why changing two circles into a slider would be a good idea. It's no wonder most people wouldn't want to go over the entire song and try to explain what they feel could be improved. Especially since eLy is very stubborn and doesn't like to change 'just because someone said so', and especially since most modders, even in the BN and QAT, could not mod like this.

This gets far harder and more complicated the further you go into the map - eLy keeps adding more to the melody and supplementing what's already there, but makes some mistakes (Either from just putting in patterns that don't quite fit what the music structure is, or ignoring the musical patterns outright) in following the structure of the song and while it's extremely hard to just select a pile of notes and say 'this is wrong/off', it's extremely easy to feel that "something here is off" and that's why you get a lot of objections from this.

This kind of thing is subtle and very hard to pin down, and never appears in most mods because it's actually quite hard to just select a pile of notes and go "fix it by doing this" - it's a conceptual problem and the language barriers don't help at all.


And yes, this kind of "problem" with mapping mostly doesn't even exist in most asian circles (the shear concept of "maps should satisfy mappers too, not just players" is utterly alien to their general mindset while mapping) - it's one of the major problems the asian and european mapping communities have with eachother's maps - but this is a global game and people should discuss their differences as best they can rather than segregate themselves into two parties.

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.

eLy wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Being all emo about it helps nobody, especially not yourself.

it is not emotional, i just tired of this situation.
i would drop my difficulty rather than change all those things and become another style which i don't like.

also same with cookie.

Mir wrote:

I mean you just deleted the diffs everyone had issues with so there are no problems really anymore.

What can I even say at this point lol.

I was hoping to come to some agreement but this is basically avoiding the problem, which is a way to do it in its own right it just isn't the best way imo.

As unfortunate as it is you might as well just go on with the set I guess but I would really recommend vellya tone down the overmapping on their diff too. Since stuff like 01:05:784 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - is a bit overboard imo.

i'm fine with this way

Shiirn wrote:

your style can become better with other people


are you saying other people cannot make you better? that you are already perfect? a lot of mods are trying to change you, yes, but a lot of mods are trying to make you better too

part of mapping is recognizing what will help you and what will not

if you cannot do that, if you just reject any sort of suggestions to how you map, you cannot improve as a mapper and you will always face these problems with every map you make

Garden wrote:

When 'improvements' in your eyes are made, probably the difficulty would simply go further from what the mapper wants to create in his initial mapping concept.

Shiirn wrote:

You don't ignore it and do random "feeling"

Shiirn wrote:

Feelings are not random. They have logic. Thus, maps should have logic.

Shiirn wrote:

Garden wrote:

When 'improvements' in your eyes are made, probably the difficulty would simply go further from what the mapper wants to create in his initial mapping concept.

If the mapping concept is to badly represent the music, it has no place in ranked. Leave it as an unranked training diff. I don't think this concept is very hard.

This game is about music. You work with the music. You don't ignore it and do random "feeling" mapping that is closer to a child painting with their own poop than actual art.

There can be purpose and reason to feeling. Feelings are not random. They have logic. Thus, maps should have logic.

Mir wrote:

Garden notified me of the reply.

[Cookiezi's Insane]
- 00:06:258 - Inaudible. I don't know what happened here but there is legitimately nothing on this.
- 00:33:732 - Still a bit questionable about skipping this.. how about: https://puu.sh/xBaDA/8bda42e9b6.png ?
- 00:36:258 (5,6) - Ctrl+G this rhythm to follow the vocals better?
- 00:46:679 - This is quite a strong beat. Perhaps you can make this clickable with ctrl+g on 00:46:521 (4,1) - ?
- 00:58:205 (1) - This could use more emphasis considering the kiai starts here. Probably more spacing would good.
- 00:58:363 (2,3) - More emphasis on 3 and less on 2 seems more appropriate. Something like https://puu.sh/xBaKq/61babd0115.png ?
- 01:03:890 (3) - Ctrl+g might play nicer to continue the circular flow. That would put more emphasis on 01:04:521 (1) - as well due to the flow change.

Much improvement it seems like. I'm okay with this going through now though this is just some extra stuff.

all fixed

[Re:TraumenD]
- 01:06:258 - 01:06:890 - Inaudible. Probably due to the drum hitsound being too soft here? If I change it to soft it sounds fine so I'm not too sure what's wrong here but I can't hear it. Wait a sec.. is this supposed to have 35% volume?

volume 35% → 20%　fixed　

There's some weird volume stuff going on lol.

The diffs in question are fine to me now, so take these suggestions as suggestions only. I'm lifting the veto, so feel free to get a rebubble from Garden. I wish you luck in further processing and thank you for your cooperation!

eLy wrote:

volume 35% → 20%　fixed　

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense.

Mir wrote:

eLy wrote:

volume 35% → 20%　fixed　

My point was more it should be audible so raise the volume instead of lowering it cuz:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense.

So increase 01:06:258 - to 70% like the others?

Also for Cookiezi's diff: 00:06:258 - was fine as a slider it was more for the hitsound volume like the topdiff.

70% changed ~

Firis Mistlud wrote:

I am not sure does vellya/alyce/5hiki remapped his diff into alyce's extra

But right now the package is kinda bugged as it appears the difficulty is not the latest version

i clicked on it and deletes the whole diff

maybe updating it again will help

Garden wrote:

many of the new keysounding samples have a delay over 5ms: https://puu.sh/yiIoK/3ba5617907.png

modding assistant reports

Wave hitsounds with possible delay > 5ms:
drum-hitfinish52.wav
drum-hitwhistle29.wav
drum-hitwhistle32.wav
drum-hitwhistle37.wav
drum-hitwhistle50.wav
drum-hitwhistle56.wav
drum-hitwhistle62.wav
drum-hitwhistle70.wav
drum-hitwhistle71.wav
drum-hitwhistle74.wav
drum-hitwhistle76.wav
drum-hitwhistle77.wav
normal-hitwhistle52.wav
soft-hitclap10.wav
soft-hitclap11.wav
soft-hitclap12.wav
soft-hitclap13.wav
soft-hitclap14.wav
soft-hitclap15.wav
soft-hitclap16.wav
soft-hitclap17.wav
soft-hitclap18.wav
soft-hitclap19.wav
soft-hitclap61.wav
soft-hitclap62.wav
soft-hitwhistle13.wav
soft-hitwhistle14.wav
soft-hitwhistle16.wav
soft-hitwhistle18.wav
soft-hitwhistle19.wav
soft-hitwhistle20.wav
soft-hitwhistle28.wav
soft-hitwhistle30.wav
soft-hitwhistle31.wav
soft-hitwhistle32.wav
soft-hitwhistle33.wav
soft-hitwhistle34.wav
soft-hitwhistle35.wav
soft-hitwhistle36.wav
soft-hitwhistle37.wav
soft-hitwhistle38.wav
soft-hitwhistle39.wav
soft-hitwhistle4.wav
soft-hitwhistle40.wav
soft-hitwhistle41.wav
soft-hitwhistle42.wav
soft-hitwhistle43.wav
soft-hitwhistle44.wav
soft-hitwhistle46.wav
soft-hitwhistle47.wav
soft-hitwhistle48.wav
soft-hitwhistle5.wav
soft-hitwhistle50.wav
soft-hitwhistle51.wav
soft-hitwhistle52.wav
soft-hitwhistle54.wav
soft-hitwhistle56.wav
soft-hitwhistle57.wav
soft-hitwhistle6.wav
soft-hitwhistle60.wav
soft-hitwhistle61.wav
soft-hitwhistle62.wav
soft-hitwhistle64.wav
soft-hitwhistle66.wav
soft-hitwhistle67.wav
soft-hitwhistle68.wav
soft-hitwhistle7.wav
soft-hitwhistle70.wav
soft-hitwhistle71.wav
soft-hitwhistle72.wav
soft-hitwhistle73.wav
soft-hitwhistle74.wav
soft-hitwhistle76.wav
soft-hitwhistle77.wav
soft-hitwhistle78.wav
soft-hitwhistle8.wav

fix

also 5hiki should be added to tags since the alyce/vellya diff mapper changed the name it seems

fix

Easy:
01:33:732 (1) - seems you remove the old clap hitsound from the folder and the current default one sounds really weird here, use default whistle or sth else instead

fix

rest looks ok

Sinnoh wrote:

mapset filesize is 31.7mb, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be to hard to compress one or two backgrounds to keep it under the 30mb threshold?

1. 00:07:363 (4,1) - decrease spacing like other 1/4 beats. like 00:09:890 (1,2)
2. 01:32:942 - If you make this beat clickable it would play better
4. 01:33:574 (5) - NC this to give more hp for spinner

1. 00:45:258 (3,1) - Hard to read this 1/4 slider because the spacing is so high
2. 01:32:311 (2) - wave slider? It would look prettier imo https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713598

1. hp 6

1. 01:36:100 (1) - delete finish and add whistle

1. 00:56:942 (1) - delete finish

1. 00:56:784 (1) - extend slider to 00:57:574 . Then delete 00:57:574 (1) -
2. 01:07:679 (4) - 2 circles would fit the rhythm better here

1. 00:16:758 (2) - add normal sampleset
2. 01:05:784 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Make this easier
3. 01:33:574 (5) - NC this to give more hp for spinner

1. 01:12:574 - A circle here would play nicely
2. 01:33:574 (3) - NC

1. 00:05:153 (1) - Add reverse
2. 00:55:679 (1,2) - delete these. Add spinner from 00:55:679 to 00:56:784 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713736
3. 01:07:679 (2) - don't have the tail so close to 01:05:784 (1) . Hard to read for beginners
4. 01:15:890 (1,2) - use this rhythm, much better for an easy https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713750
5. 01:23:469 (1) - Extend to 01:24:100
6. 01:31:048 (1) - I recommend using this rhythm https://i.imgur.com/Efyz2a6.png

Kisses wrote:

Top

1. 00:07:363 (4,1) - decrease spacing like other 1/4 beats. like 00:09:890 (1,2)
2. 01:32:942 - If you make this beat clickable it would play better
4. 01:33:574 (5) - NC this to give more hp for spinner

Alyce

1. 00:45:258 (3,1) - Hard to read this 1/4 slider because the spacing is so high
2. 01:32:311 (2) - wave slider? It would look prettier imo https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713598

Rizia

1. hp 6

Momoka

1. 01:36:100 (1) - delete finish and add whistle

Vellya

1. 00:56:942 (1) - delete finish

Light Insane

1. 00:56:784 (1) - extend slider to 00:57:574 . Then delete 00:57:574 (1) -
2. 01:07:679 (4) - 2 circles would fit the rhythm better here

Wring

1. 00:16:758 (2) - add normal sampleset
2. 01:05:784 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Make this easier
3. 01:33:574 (5) - NC this to give more hp for spinner

Normal

1. 01:12:574 - A circle here would play nicely
2. 01:33:574 (3) - NC

Easy

1. 00:05:153 (1) - Add reverse
2. 00:55:679 (1,2) - delete these. Add spinner from 00:55:679 to 00:56:784 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713736
3. 01:07:679 (2) - don't have the tail so close to 01:05:784 (1) . Hard to read for beginners
4. 01:15:890 (1,2) - use this rhythm, much better for an easy https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9713750
5. 01:23:469 (1) - Extend to 01:24:100
6. 01:31:048 (1) - I recommend using this rhythm https://i.imgur.com/Efyz2a6.png

Do all that and I rank

Kisses wrote:

Normal

1. 01:12:574 - A circle here would play nicely
   follow vocals
2. 01:33:574 (3) - NC
   fix

Do all that and I rank