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Code of Conduct: Modding and Mapping

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Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
Hello!

We have revised our Code of Conduct based on everyone's feedback in this thread! Please go through the new version. After final amendments, discussion is now closed and the latest version will be added as part of the official Ranking Criteria.

Old announcement
As announced at this thread, me and JBHyperion (95% him) have been working on a Code of Conduct that is supposed to apply across the entire ecosystem of Mapping and Modding. Most of these things can be considered as "common sense", however, we felt like we need to explicitely write down this CoC in order to remind people that they are interacting with people and that we want people to stay civil. Additionally, we want to draw a line of where we might see future behavior violations when it comes to fights and misconduct in individual beatmap cases.

Therefore, we propose to put this Code of Conduct on top of the General Ranking Criteria, in order to give it the rightful place of an all-applying behavior ruleset to ensure civil and proper discussion, suggestion making and replying to such.

For sure, before we amend this, we want your feedback on that. You will have 1 week to file your feedback for this matter. At the 1. May 2016, we will lock down this discussion and apply the feedback and then put up a final revision, before we amend this set of rules to the Ranking Criteria once and for all.

So here we go:

Behaviour and Conduct

  1. The goal of modding is to help a mapper improve their work so that it can be pushed towards Ranked status if the mapper chooses to do so. If you're not interested in helping people, steer clear of the discussion to avoid hurting them.
  2. When modding, consider who the post is directed at, what you aim to achieve by posting and what response you expect to receive. This will ensure your best intentions are conveyed and your post is easy to understand.
    1. Don’t shy away from new mappers and modders - these people are the ones who can benefit the most from your input! Be patient, understanding, and provide as much explanation as possible so that they can learn and improve more quickly
    2. If you’re new yourself, don’t be afraid to say so! This will allow more experienced community members to point you in the right direction. Everyone was new and in your position once!
  3. Treat others as you wish to be treated. People are more receptive to kind, helpful suggestions than hostile ones. Try to understand others’ point-of-view rather than attack it - nobody likes to feel worthless, incompetent or stupid. If you are a masochist, assume that all others are not.
  4. If you wish to comment on or discuss a beatmap, go to that beatmap’s thread - not social media outlets, or the Disqus comments section (if the map is Qualified), as it is unlikely your concerns will be heard by anyone with the power to address them appropriately.
  5. Personal attacks, hateful comments, misplaced joking, derailing the thread and general drama-initiation are not acceptable in any form and will not be tolerated.

Making a Mod Post

So you downloaded a map and you've thought of some things you aren't happy with - now's the time to put your thoughts to words and help improve the map. But how can you get the mapper to see your point of view, test your suggestions and give you feedback? After all, no-one likes feeling that their time has been wasted.
  1. Before modding, ensure your intentions are good and you are focused on the task at hand. No-one likes to receive a rude or lazy mod.
  2. When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively / objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level. All types of suggestion are fine as long as they are put forward accordingly.
    1. Objective Issues - Prohibited by rulesets and must be fixed.
    2. Intersubjective Issues - Not prohibited by rulesets, but are agreed upon as being “wrong” by a majority of people. Should be fixed in most cases unless there are opposing intersubjective arguments with equal size, or if the mapper can exhaustively explain why they feel it is acceptable
    3. Subjective Issues - Something that you believe or think on a personal level. Might become intersubjective if many people agree with it.
  3. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track.
  4. When pointing out "issues", inspect each thoroughly consider exactly what it is about the particular "thing" you dislike. Then, try to offer a potential solution or improvement and consider exactly how that suggestion will improve the map. If necessary, try multiple suggestions to see which work best - The more help you can offer the mapper, the better.
Suggestions themselves should ideally consist of four main parts, though based on the experience of the mapper and/or your personal relationship to them, you may want to be more lenient:
  1. A statement of the issue itself and where it can be found - including a timestamp is a huge help so that the mapper can find the part in question quickly.
  2. A brief explanation of why this causes a problem - this is essential in convincing a mapper to even consider your suggestion. Mappers are much more receptive to criticism and change when it's accompanied by clear, understandable and valid reasoning.
  3. One or more alternative suggestions, accompanied by explanations of how they address the problem(s) - much like the above, explanation is key here. Even if you can convince the mapper that their current work can be improved, what makes your suggestion better than theirs, or anyone else's?
  4. The wording (or even language) used should take the mapper into consideration. Are they a fluent English speaker? If not, stick to simple and easy-to-understand language. If you both speak the same language, by all means write in that language, but try to append an English summary of your mods and mod replies if possible, to ensure everyone stays on the same page. If necessary, support your suggestions with screenshots, illustrations, or even short video clips to help get your point across.
There are any number of ways to present your mod post, so feel free to experiment, but try to keep the visuals simple and formatted in a way that it is easy for the mapper and others to work with.

Responding to a Mod

Someone just posted some suggestions on your map, great! - but it doesn't end there. For the record, it's necessary to give a proper response for two major reasons. Firstly, so that future mods can be tailored more specifically to your concept or style, resulting in fewer unhelpful suggestions. Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!

  1. Treat all suggestions as valid and equally important until you have thoroughly inspected and tested them - even minor stylistic changes or alternative viewpoints can help improve the quality of a beatmap
  2. As with making a mod post, be sure to explain yourself as much as possible. State what you changed, and if you didn’t accept the suggestion for some reason, explain why and what you did instead.
  3. When declining a suggestion, remain calm and professional, say what needs to be said in order to explain yourself and leave it at that. No matter how impolite, confusing or unhelpful the suggestion was, getting angry and responding with hostility, sarcasm, etc. will not help the situation.
  4. BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.

Further Exchange and Discussion

Sometimes, a single mod and response isn't enough to bring all parties to agreement, or fully resolve an issue. Perhaps the mapper doesn't agree with a suggestion, and the modder isn't satisfied with their response. Alternatively, both parties might agree that although one option is better, it isn't the best option and could still be improved further with additional input. Continued feedback is the best way to improve a beatmap, so get people involved and talking to get as many different ideas, or see things from as many points of view as necessary.

  1. If you’re unsure about something, ask the person in question to explain what they meant. They should be more than willing to explain things to you in more detail.
  2. Still can’t reach an agreement? Ask someone with more experience, such as a BN or QAT. Remember they are busy people, however!
    Should you realise there's a more suitable alternative to something you originally suggested, don't be afraid to put your pride aside - sometimes being wrong can be far more valuable than being right.
  3. There is no such things as a "wrong" opinion - it's up to the mapper and modders to come to an agreement in a civil manner - try to understand alternative points of view rather than attack them, as you never know when it might be useful in the future.
  4. If you can't explain something through logic, you will not be able to explain it to them through violence either. Rather than continue a discussion that isn’t progressing, walk away and try again with the next modder/mapper.
  5. When things look to be getting out of hand, or of the discussion is struggling to stay on topic, call a moderator - don't contribute to the problem by continuing to post.

Qualified Mapsets

The Qualified section allows mapsets to receive any final suggestions for change or improvement before reaching Ranked status. When modding a Qualified map, everything you consider “not minor” should always be mentioned - minor issues are also worth mentioning however, especially if they affect gameplay. If a Qualified mapset accumulates a significant number of minor issues, or if there is one or more major / unrankable issues, the mapset should be disqualified so that fixes and improvements can be made before attempting requalification.

If you’re unsure on the nature of a potential problem, ask for other opinions or review previous mod posts to make sure the “issue” presented isn’t something done intentionally by the mapper - if so, it will likely have been discussed already. If there has been no prior discussion, feel free to open one as if you were modding the map normally. If you feel the issues discovered should prevent the mapset from being ranked, report it in this thread with a link to your mod post and a brief outline of your concerns.

Note that it is the community’s responsibility ALONE to report issues with qualified beatmaps. The Quality Assurance Team will NOT actively check and disqualify mapsets unless prompted to do so.


Previous version (prior 15.8.2016)

Behaviour and Conduct

  1. The goal of modding is to help a mapper improve their work so that it can be pushed towards Ranked status if the mapper chooses to do so. If you're not interested in helping people, steer clear of the discussion to avoid hurting them.
  2. When modding, consider who the post is directed at, what you aim to achieve by posting and what response you expect to receive. This will ensure your best intentions are conveyed and your post is easy to understand.
    1. Don’t shy away from new mappers and modders - these people are the ones who can benefit the most from your input! Be patient, understanding, and provide as much explanation as possible so that they can learn and improve more quickly
    2. If you’re new yourself, don’t be afraid to say so! This will allow more experienced community members to point you in the right direction. Everyone was new and in your position once!
  3. Treat others as you wish to be treated. People are more receptive to kind, helpful suggestions than hostile ones. Try to understand others’ point-of-view rather than attack it - nobody likes to feel worthless, incompetent or stupid. If you are a masochist, assume that all others are not.
  4. If you wish to comment on or discuss a beatmap, go to that beatmap’s thread - not social media outlets, or the Disqus comments section (if the map is Qualified), as it is unlikely your concerns will be heard by anyone with the power to address them appropriately.
  5. Personal attacks, hateful comments, misplaced joking, derailing the thread and general drama-initiation are not acceptable in any form and will not be tolerated.

Making a Mod Post

So you downloaded a map and you've thought of some things you aren't happy with - now's the time to put your thoughts to words and help improve the map. But how can you get the mapper to see your point of view, test your suggestions and give you feedback? After all, no-one likes feeling that their time has been wasted.
  1. Before modding, ensure your intentions are good and you are focused on the task at hand. No-one likes to receive a rude or lazy mod.
  2. When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively / objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level. All types of suggestion are fine as long as they are put forward accordingly.
    1. Objective Issues - Prohibited by rulesets and must be fixed.
    2. Intersubjective Issues - Not prohibited by rulesets, but are agreed upon as being “wrong” by a majority of people. Should be fixed in most cases unless there are opposing intersubjective arguments with equal size, or if the mapper can exhaustively explain why they feel it is acceptable
    3. Subjective Issues - Something that you believe or think on a personal level. Might become intersubjective if many people agree with it.
  3. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track.
  4. When pointing out issues, consider exactly what it is about the particular "thing" you dislike. Then, try to offer a potential solution or improvement and consider exactly how that suggestion will improve the map.
  5. Suggestions themselves should ideally consist of four main parts, though based on the experience of the mapper and/or your personal relationship to them, you may want to be more lenient:
    1. A statement of the issue itself and where it can be found - including a timestamp is a huge help so that the mapper can find the part in question quickly.
    2. A brief explanation of why this causes a problem - this is essential in convincing a mapper to even consider your suggestion. Mappers are much more receptive to criticism and change when it's accompanied by clear, understandable and valid reasoning.
    3. One or more alternative suggestions, accompanied by explanations of how they address the problem(s) - much like the above, explanation is key here. Even if you can convince the mapper that their current work can be improved, what makes your suggestion better than theirs, or anyone else's?
    4. The wording (or even language) used should take the mapper into consideration. Are they a fluent English speaker? If not, stick to simple and easy-to-understand language. If you both speak the same language, by all means write in that language. If necessary, support your suggestions with screenshots, illustrations, or even short video clips to help get your point across.
  6. Inspect each “issue” thoroughly, trying multiple suggestions to see which work best - The more help you can offer the mapper, the better.

Responding to a Mod

Someone just posted some suggestions on your map, great! - but it doesn't end there. For the record, it's necessary to give a proper response for two major reasons. Firstly, so that future mods can be tailored more specifically to your concept or style, resulting in fewer unhelpful suggestions. Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!
  1. Treat all suggestions as valid and equally important until you have thoroughly inspected and tested them - even minor stylistic changes or alternative viewpoints can help improve the quality of a beatmap
  2. As with making a mod post, be sure to explain yourself as much as possible. State what you changed, and if you didn’t accept the suggestion for some reason, explain why and what you did instead.
  3. When declining a suggestion, remain calm and professional, say what needs to be said in order to explain yourself and leave it at that. No matter how impolite, confusing or unhelpful the suggestion was, getting angry and responding with hostility, sarcasm, etc. will not help the situation.
  4. BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.

Further Exchange and Discussion

Sometimes, a single mod and response isn't enough to bring all parties to agreement, or fully resolve an issue. Perhaps the mapper doesn't agree with a suggestion, and the modder isn't satisfied with their response. Alternatively, both parties might agree that although one option is better, it isn't the best option and could still be improved further with additional input. Continued feedback is the best way to improve a beatmap, so get people involved and talking to get as many different ideas, or see things from as many points of view as necessary.
  1. If you’re unsure about something, ask the person in question to explain what they meant. They should be more than willing to explain things to you in more detail.
  2. Still can’t reach an agreement? Ask someone with more experience, such as a BN or QAT. Remember they are busy people, however!
    Should you realise there's a more suitable alternative to something you originally suggested, don't be afraid to put your pride aside - sometimes being wrong can be far more valuable than being right.
  3. There is no such things as a "wrong" opinion - it's up to the mapper and modders to come to an agreement in a civil manner - try to understand alternative points of view rather than attack them, as you never know when it might be useful in the future.
  4. If you can't explain something through logic, you will not be able to explain it to them through violence either. Rather than continue a discussion that isn’t progressing, walk away and try again with the next modder/mapper.
  5. When things look to be getting out of hand, or of the discussion is struggling to stay on topic, call a moderator - don't contribute to the problem by continuing to post.
[/list]

Qualified Mapsets

The Qualified section allows mapsets to receive any final suggestions for change or improvement before reaching Ranked status. When modding a Qualified map, everything you consider “not minor” should always be mentioned - minor issues are also worth mentioning however, especially if they affect gameplay. If a Qualified mapset accumulates a significant number of minor issues, or if there is one or more major / unrankable issues, the mapset should be disqualified so that fixes and improvements can be made before attempting requalification.

If you’re unsure on the nature of a potential problem, ask for other opinions or review previous mod posts to make sure the “issue” presented isn’t something done intentionally by the mapper - if so, it will likely have been discussed already. If there has been no prior discussion, feel free to open one as if you were modding the map normally. If you feel the issues discovered should prevent the mapset from being ranked, report it in this thread with a link to your mod post and a brief outline of your concerns.

Note that it is the community’s responsibility ALONE to report issues with qualified beatmaps. The Quality Assurance Team will NOT actively check and disqualify mapsets unless prompted to do so.
_underjoy
704 posts
Joined January 2013
_underjoy
Awesome work! Hope that this post explains a lot of things and misconceptions.
Daikyi
190 posts
Joined April 2011
Daikyi
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad, and disliking something personally can still have merit - since I think most people agree that getting maps to the point where they're played because they're fun/challenging, and not unfair/otherwise is the end goal. I feel like this bullet point is a little bit better addressed in the main parts of the suggestion list you have. Imo it essentially boils down to, consider your mod to be a dialogue to the other mapper. If it's simply "move x to y" the whole time, or "you missed a note here", there might not be much need for elaboration, but when explaining patterns and expressing dislike, whether subjective or objective, it should be on the modder's side of the field to make sure the mapper understands their point of view.

Start with small changes to preserve the existing concept of the beatmap. Try more significant changes only if necessary.
I think this is much less a code of conduct thing, but a general modding guideline? Not sure how necessary this is.

Like, if this is a code of conduct, a lot of that section I feel like can be condensed with the "responding to a mod" section, because in the end, it's everyone wanting their maps to be better assuming the code of conduct is followed, and a "treat others the way you want to be treated" kinda comes into play i think.

========================

I'm actually the most confused about giving kudosu. Mostly to BN checks, and repeated mods, what's the policy on that - I've never really seen any real set in stone thing other than "give kudosu to mods you found helpful, even if you didn't apply any changes to your map"

Also, with modding v2, potential changes to the kudosu system or something may be happening as well?

========================

good guidelines though, based off of literally "common sense. think about what others are thinking. don't be a diq"
Mint
1,611 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint
BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.
Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.

Also, perhaps this should be up to the mapper. The maximum BNs and QATs can help other modders, is mostly with their attitude - I think the mapper should also take part in deciding on how helpful the mod / the attitude was. It's the mappers' work the modders are improving them after all, and not us - we don't have the direct connection between them.

Rest looks generally cool to me, as you said 'common sense' can be applied to most points anyways!
HappyRocket88
4,322 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88

Loctav wrote:

If you are a masochist, assume that all others are not.
Awesome! Hopefully this will avoid those salty behaviours amongst mappers and modders when a beatmap is qualified and how their opinions are treated.

The guide is really organized but I think "Making a Post" could be summarized with simple questions and answers instead of that making a manual of how to post your opinion. What I mean is that something like: what's bad for you?, why? and how/what would be better? could be more than enough in my opinion.

Looking forward to see this applied! Good job to Mr. JBHyperion! Currently working as a Professional Chair Thrower. What a tiring job! o:
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
Neat stuff!

The only thing I'm worried about is that this code suggests writing super huge paragraphs as mods, while keeping it short and simple is better 99% of the time in reality. Not every point in a mod needs those four steps, especially when modding experienced mappers' maps, it's better to keep it as one sentence unless it's a complicated issue.

Daikyi wrote:

When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad...
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).

Daikyi wrote:

I'm actually the most confused about giving kudosu. Mostly to BN checks, and repeated mods, what's the policy on that - I've never really seen any real set in stone thing other than "give kudosu to mods you found helpful, even if you didn't apply any changes to your map"

Also, with modding v2, potential changes to the kudosu system or something may be happening as well?
I don't really get the term 'BN check', I mean, it's a normal mod isn't it why wouldn't it get kudosu? If the BN just ranks your map without modding then it's not a mod and doesn't get a kudosu. Rechecks / repeated mods don't get kudosu unless the map changed drastically (aka remap) and there is some months of time in between.
I have no idea what will happen to kudosu with modding v2 but it can't stay as it is simply because we won't be posting actual mod posts anymore (only single suggestions).

appleeaterx wrote:

things
You are already supposed to skim through the mods a mapset has got and see if anything's not been applied. By doing that you get an overview of how the communication of the mapper and the modders has been. I don't think there is anything more behind this.
meii18
3,577 posts
Joined October 2013
meii18
Nice ^^! I agree with that part to don't be so rude with the mapper plus avoiding the jokes while modding.I know modding is a bit boring and that's why mostly of modders (some of them let's say) are getting something to have some fun and also to hurt the mapper in my opinion.Even if you are getting bored,still you have to be polite while modding and also addresing the issues without jokes or anything hurtful so the mapper will get it what he/she have to fix.Looking forward on what will going on! :)
Daikyi
190 posts
Joined April 2011
Daikyi
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).
Exactly, I think this can be clarified a tiny bit in the code, since it's a tiny bit ambiguous imo right now

things about kudosu
ty for clarification lol, i guess common sense stuff
Mismagius
9,267 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Hey!

Gave the thread a quick read and it seems interesting and makes things much more clear and allows for constructive criticism to be actually supported and set in stone.
Just a small suggestion though, it was said that QATs from now on will only be helping to DQ maps through the community's reports. Maybe add a section instructing on how to act based on already-qualified maps (e.g. make sure that the issue presented isn't something intentional by the mapper/if it is intentional and unrankable, explain what point in the ranking criteria disallows it) so it makes these cases much clearer to judge. After all, not many people enjoy when the thread of a more complex mapping style is filled with "I can't read this, please DQ" etc.

When possible I'll try to give a few more suggestions, but for now this should be all
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Loctav wrote:

Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
what are modders supposed to say about a map that is fundamentally flawed? the "making a mod post" section assumes the map is acceptable, so i don't think modders will understand how to criticize fundamental issues without appearing to force their preferences
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,957 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
Writing huge paragraphs as mods should only be necessary if that much information is required to understand your point. I found it in most situations more appropriate to get to your point in as little words as possible to remain understandable. Oftentimes only one convincing argument is needed instead of a barrage of a lot small ones / huge chunks of explanation.
xch00F
239 posts
Joined October 2012
xch00F
bad
Last edited by xch00F , edited 1 time in total.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

appleeaterx wrote:

BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.
Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.
I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.

anyways seems good, this reminds me of this thread: t/151677
Mint
1,611 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint

Natsu wrote:

I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.

anyways seems good, this reminds me of this thread: t/151677
This wasn't completely what I meant tho; checking the map thread is already a thing, yes.
I was more referring to the vague messages sent in Discord & #modhelp about 'rating mods' and I wanted to know if that's actually going to be a thing :/
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The goal of modding is to help a mapper improve their work so that it can achieve Ranked status. If you're not interested in helping people, steer clear of the discussion to avoid hurting them.
I believe this is wrong/incomplete.
It's not solely about improving a specific work of a mapper with the exclusive purpose of pushing the map towards ranking.
Modding happens to give mappers feedback so they can reflect their work under various aspects.
This is not only good for improving a specific map but to improve the mapper's awareness and expertise on the matter which affects his future modding/mapping work in a positive way regardless of what happens to that specific map in the end.

tl;dr: Mods on maps that are not going to be ranked are valuable.

I'd suggest removing the part about Ranked Status or altering the wording because right now it sounds like it's not worthwhile to mod a map that is unlikely to get ranked.
Arusamour
424 posts
Joined April 2014
Arusamour
This is basically; How to be a more logical and mature human being.

This should be a big heads up to the people who are new to the mapping scene. Pretty sure most people who have years experience of modding can agree with this.

good post
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
957 posts
Joined December 2012
-Mo-

Loctav wrote:

Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!

Loctav wrote:

The modding process should assist modders as well as mappers - a good mod response will help the modder gain experience and allow them to make better, more detailed mod posts in the future.
Feels kinda redundant to have the same point in the paragraph above and in the bullet points too.

Loctav wrote:

When things look to be getting out of hand, or of if the discussion is struggling to stay on topic, call a moderator - don't contribute to the problem by continuing to post.
Sorry to play the grammar nazi instead of giving feedback on the CoC itself, but someone has to to it /shrug
I might write some more valuable feedback later.
Secretpipe
3,316 posts
Joined December 2012
Secretpipe
A brief explanation of why this causes a problem - this is essential in convincing a mapper to even consider your suggestion. Mappers are much more receptive to criticism and change when it's accompanied by clear, understandable and valid reasoning.


Thank you for makin' it.
squirrelpascals
984 posts
Joined March 2015
squirrelpascals
I think the CoC makes some great points, for old and new modders/mappers alike. I would add something in there about new modders/mappers, because their mods naturally might not be as proficient (I know mine weren't). If this is necessary, maybe add a few passages in there similar to this

Potential "New Modder" Points
• Consider whether the person modding has past experience in mapping/modding. If not, it will make a lot of help to extend your mod reply, to point them in the right direction in considering which mods are most beneficial to the mapper, whether a mod may offend a mappers style, etc. Don't attack the modder for not making ideal mods and remember to consider why they might make a certain modding decision, as always.

• Don't shy away from modding a new mapper's map; they probably need it the most! Be elaborate in your mods for new mappers and consider the point above.

• If you're a new modder yourself, don't be afraid to say so yourself! Everybody was a new modder at one point, and saying so will only help you and the mapper more to point you in the right direction.


Also, maybe it would also be helpful to put the CoC in different languages (Mostly more prominent ones; French, Spanish). Browser translations, etc. are not always that clear.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes
CoC is great and all but it was already in place - just not in a written format. I was hoping to see specifics on how mappers that abuse the system with certain friend circles or crying oppression when someone gives a legitimate mod. It also extends to those who perpetuate the abuse (BN/QAT) by turning a blind eye when it involves fellow members of a circle. Why aren't there restrictions in place for mappers that repeatedly hand-wave such mods in such a flippant manner? Why are those in positions of power allowed to retain their status? Time and time again you see some truly ridiculous maps come out that end up with pages of debate (BN/QAT, modders and players alike) only to have it end up ranked in what is virtually the same state that caused the debate in the first place. I have no reason to place any faith in the CoC when it has already been in place for so long without making a difference.
Moeruattack
763 posts
Joined June 2014
Moeruattack

Loctav wrote:

Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
I think it depends, If the design concept itself is flawed with current design, giving alternatives of "own styles" is still just "suggestions". Its either accept or not.
If you wish to improve its current design to be more patternish, then its ok. But ruining the original purpose of the map might be problematic.

Loctav wrote:

Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!
It seems similar to up here, but he mention the Improvement of mapping ability to the mapper, and modder.
Modder seems a bit alienated for me though. Sometimes rules kinda changed from time to time till it makes confusion, for example, CTB Rain from low BPM song getting AR9.1 or AR9.2 instead of AR9, CS minimum of Salad to 3.5 instead. I just don`t get it. This need to be mention soon though.

Other seems good :)
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
  1. When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
Exactly what I think, some people need to understand this.
Kuki
722 posts
Joined October 2013
Kuki
sometimes it can be difficult to be honest and kind at the same time, some things are inherently not taken well while at the same time need to be stated
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
ow, awesome work
Davin Fortune
584 posts
Joined June 2014
Davin Fortune
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.

Well when the mapper see the map with the structure, he/she says fine but when player play it and say it's bad, and suggest it. Isn't it just like a subjective stuff?

BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.

I think it's something that forces the BN/QAT's to read the whole thread while they also have to check the map too
Remember they are busy people, however!
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Davin Fortune wrote:

When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.

Well when the mapper see the map with the structure, he/she says fine but when player play it and say it's bad, and suggest it. Isn't it just like a subjective stuff? Not necessarily. As a modder you need to testplay the map, along with the patterns to make sure it plays well. If something still goes through then the player only need to explain why it plays bad and give a possible(?) solution. Even if there is no possible solution given, we can make decision by following the explanation.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
About the language. While I think it is cool to mod in a language that is more comfortable to the mapper or modder, I think there should always be what mapper changed and what he didn't change in English, preferably. The reason is for example, I check all the previous mods on maps to know whether there weren't people with good points, in case they use language that is not international, you cannot really tell whether there weren't things worth a discussion. This problem is often happening to Chinese mappers (not saying anything against them, just these people tend to use their native language much more) and when they require you for a mod, you may accept that, but like 8/10 mods are Chinese, so you don't really know whether there was or wasn't feedback. You can obviously catch something by looking at the timestamps, but you cannot really always guess what was discussed here (or if it was even discussed).
Ciyus Miapah
3,028 posts
Joined June 2013
Ciyus Miapah
the conclusion about this story:
find mods is hard, just it

Resolution:
create EXP and Modding Level and create Modding Performance point please, so people will not being lazy or busy by using this farming Modding pp
use that rules to make that happen and modding world will be more better without many dramas or whatever is this game

how to get modding pp: get more kudos
how to get more kudos: mod people map
how to mod people map: this is subjective thing (99% of modding is by request from the others in Mod Queue or Message in game/forum)

osu needs Modding pp, so you can have mod from random people without requesting to them first. Profit
(this is just a suggestion, feel free to discuss this or no)
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
thanks for writing this CoC of modding & mapping, i hope more mappers (either old or new mappers) could do their best for their mapset while stay being chill!

chill
Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
between me and various osu!mania mappers, i keep giving a damn warn many times about :
> overall mapping style / structure / patterning should be more creative based upon of the song they're trying to map which its the main problem..
> pointing out that the those 3 stuff was found repeatedly in their current mapset...
> plus not to mention, those 3 stuff also found being same / similar in every single of their previous mapset, implying the song are different.."
and *insert long generalized mod here*

the feedback i usually got : keep, this is my style, i don't want to change it; simply just throw the diff away and give up; or in quiet rare case the mappers giving proper feedback & actually did a quiet improvement!

personal note : in defense of why i sometimes being brief and harsh : i don't see why people would even rank a map, by simply doing copy>paste>flip & throw the objects into editor and messes everything, just saying..
these causes the mappers ignoring the actual rhythm that are supposed to be layered with proper rhythm placement, based of the actual song itself..

i just want them to try something better for their mapset, no im not trying to be baka masochist, just because i gave a briefer modding & feedback..
also i love it when a mappers could be easily cooperative that its the best for their mapset to alter, change, remove, add, and improve their mapset as i give a mod.. it least tiring for me and for the mappers haha..
with this CoC being amended soon, hopefully i could get lesser similar experience, so once again thank you for writing this! :D
Ardiemerde
20 posts
Joined April 2015
Ardiemerde
Would love to translate this to Indonesian so that it could be localized.

Well, when it's amended though.
Lily Bread
1,228 posts
Joined December 2014
Lily Bread
a good post.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Thanks for all the feedback so far guys! I'll do my best to go over it in the coming days, so stay tuned for an update in the near future!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
As he said, we will review your input and make adjustments, before we reopen this discussion again. Thanks everybody for contributing!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
We are unlocking this thread to reopen the discussion about our adjusted Code of Conduct. Based on your suggestion, we have made various changes to the set of behavior rules and we wish everyone to participate once again!

When the deadline expires, we will lock this thread again and make final adjustments to the code of conduct before making it official part of the Ranking Criteria, so leave your feedback while there is still a chance!

Read the first post of the thread for all information!
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Looks pretty good on first read now.
Mismagius
9,267 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Hi, I'll probably edit this with more info later but

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
People are currently using this as an excuse to stop technical maps (such as HW's) from getting qualified, and I feel like the wording on this doesn't really specify that it's pointed at mapsets from new mappers and mappers that don't really know what they are doing. I think that the first part of the sentence could make it clearer about what kinds of map we're directing this to
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Tbh, I don't feel like HW ever had problems ranking her maps that feel more gimmicky. When even a map with SV6.2 overlapping fullscreensliders that won't get followed by the player ever (he will aim for each individual slidertick instead) gets serious modding I don't think there's any reason to worry. I don't mean to discuss about specific maps here (just an example how tolerant the community is towards experimental mappers) but when they're experimenting even experienced mappers who usually know what they're doing can create a design that is flawed or at least needs major adjustments. Simply because they're doing something new and their experience isn't worth as much in such cases.
Mismagius
9,267 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
but the point of that section is to point out objective issues, while these 'experiments' are often subjectively good/bad
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
I still don't think it needs a separate note. A separate note would easily boil down to something like
"If you don't understand the map cause the mapper is too pro, come back when you got good so you may see what's going on."
Which can easily be interpreted in the way that the modders are just too dumb to see the true genius of a map.

In terms of feedback it's not much different from letting two players play a map that is mapped on Insane-level but has Metadata as if one applied EZ-mod. One is a regular EZ-player and the other isn't. The former can play it and will actually be capable to say something about the map's quality. The latter can't play it nor say something about the quality but the feedback he he will give regarding the map's readibility with EZ is still not worthless.
The example is obviously a bit extreme because even the EZ-player can tell the mapper that the map is hard to read but on more nuanced levels such issues might not be as obvious to the experienced player.
The mapper is free to disagree with the proposal of remapping and can work together with the person who doesn't understand a thing to make the map more accessible while keeping the desired theme. After all the modder hopefully gives reasons why he thinks it should get remapped. From there everything can only get better.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s its current design - not force your own style upon it.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
Well, doesn't seem like we gathered much this time. Thanks everybody anyways! We are locking this for now while we review and try to address the last issue people mentioned in this set of rules before moving onwards to amending this CoC to the Ranking Criteria.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Fixed the typo pointed out!

After discussing the remaining concerns, we decided that the current wording is sufficient. Expanding on it further would open loopholes by attempting to cover a plethora of edge cases which would defeat the purpose of a clear and concise guide. I'm confident we can push this forward in its current state, so we'll give this a final two weeks to see if anything else comes up.

New Deadline: Thursday 11th August 2016

Thanks for your help and suggestions everyone!
Battle
2,865 posts
Joined February 2014
Battle
"A statement of the issue itself and where it can be found - including a timestamp is a huge help so that the mapper can find the part in question quickly."

Shouldn't including a timestamp be something that's necessary rather than a huge help? Even if the problem is re-occurring typically adding one example of the pattern/rhythm/whatever in question helps a lot more than "the pattern with the triangle plays bad, fix it for all those patterns".
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Except it's not always necessary, since oftentimes it is more useful in the long run to make more general statements than it is to point out individual mistakes or inaccuracies. Sometimes a map might not even be at such a level where pointing out individual things would actually be a good change (for example, if the majority of the map should be remapped, etc.). On top of that, if someone is able to point out and fix their own mistakes, they're less prone to make those mistakes in future maps.
Battle
2,865 posts
Joined February 2014
Battle
Fair enough, but I'm kinda saying that there should at least be one example given in that case. I am well aware that when modding a newer mapper's map, it's a lot easier to point out things such as sliders with ends on downbeats (something which is absolutely okay to give without a timestamp). However I do feel like timestamps are necessary so at least the beginner knows what exactly to look out for, beginner's may not know what exactly about what you point out is wrong for a certain pattern or rhythm, so giving one timestamp at the very least for a point can be tremendously helpful as they have a clear example of where it happens so they can try to understand why it is wrong.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I still think the same about the language, but nobody discussed that at all, so I don't see why it is the same.

ALL BNs speak English and are obligate to check if any mods aren't missing a kudosu. It's good if you use a language that makes more sense to the mapper, but one of them should make a conclusion about what was changed and what wasn't changed in English - maybe something important was ignored and maybe we aren't even aware if that mod warrants a kudosu. I think it's quite quality-killer if you want to qualify/bubble a map that has all mods of a language you don't understand. Sometimes I'm surprised what mapper ignored and could improve the map a lot, but nobody will point it out in this case.

@Battle For beginners, I think they need only one timestamp to fix everything of that issue if it's 100% obvious what the issue is. In other case when they might not be really sure when it's an issue and when it isn't, all timestamps wouldn't hurt.
J1NX1337
248 posts
Joined February 2014
J1NX1337
Great summary of things to take into account!
Should help a lot of people in their approach to modding and/or applying mods.

I think one thing that helps with the modder's approach when writing mods is to properly organize the mod structure, with for example lists and perhaps some square brackets for headers or bold/colored text for highlighting. It helps make the mods more comprehensible and more enjoyable to read for the mapper and everyone involved. It's not exactly essential of course but to my experience, it does convey a better feeling of the mod in general. It seems more proper, nice and less lazy because of the extra bit of effort put into it, I suppose. It doesn't of course mean that everyone who doesn't bother with aforementioned things or cleanliness made a bad mod though, definitely up to the modder. :P

Wafu wrote:

I still think the same about the language, but nobody discussed that at all, so I don't see why it is the same.

ALL BNs speak English and are obligate to check if any mods aren't missing a kudosu. It's good if you use a language that makes more sense to the mapper, but one of them should make a conclusion about what was changed and what wasn't changed in English - maybe something important was ignored and maybe we aren't even aware if that mod warrants a kudosu. I think it's quite quality-killer if you want to qualify/bubble a map that has all mods of a language you don't understand. Sometimes I'm surprised what mapper ignored and could improve the map a lot, but nobody will point it out in this case.
Agreed. I think, if the modder is capable of writing English, but for example chooses to mod in their foreign native language instead, they should write a short summary of core parts of the mod, and the mapper should do it as well when replying to the mod in that same native language to give a short summary on what was changed. This is especially important on the modder's part when an IRC mod is in question, since it's really hard to tell what is conveyed in those messages if they're of foreign language, and sometimes it can be quite important information to see what was already discussed and what the mapper's opinion on that is.
AzureDoctor
196 posts
Joined January 2016
AzureDoctor
I'm not too good with words, so please bear with me here.

When I was looking through the mod queues, I noticed quite a few modding queues saying that they will only mod certain genres and/or songs that they like. I got rejected many times trying to get mods for my first map becuse the modders "didn't like my song".

While I understand that every person has their own preferences, I feel that modders should be able to step out of their comfort zone and be open to all genres of music presented to them by the mappers.

If the modder doesn't know how to mod a certain genre, that's okay. But rejecting a map just because they don't like the song is not something I think is acceptable, especially if the modder doesn't take into account the quality of the map presented to them.

Though I'm still new to mapping and modding, I feel that having modders be open to all genres of music would help mappers get more mods, and the modders would gain even more valuable knowledge on modding.

What do you guys think?
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

Wafu wrote:

I still think the same about the language, but nobody discussed that at all, so I don't see why it is the same.

ALL BNs speak English and are obligate to check if any mods aren't missing a kudosu. It's good if you use a language that makes more sense to the mapper, but one of them should make a conclusion about what was changed and what wasn't changed in English - maybe something important was ignored and maybe we aren't even aware if that mod warrants a kudosu. I think it's quite quality-killer if you want to qualify/bubble a map that has all mods of a language you don't understand. Sometimes I'm surprised what mapper ignored and could improve the map a lot, but nobody will point it out in this case.
All BNs are competent in English, but you can't reasonably expect every mapper/modder in the entire community to be so. I could include an additional request to "provide a summary of main points upon request", but I feel the onus is as much on the BN to seek out that information if they desire it, as well as the mapper/modder. As with any aspect of mapping, you are encouraged to seek help from someone with experience if there are parts of the beatmap thread you don't understand or want more information on - either from the mapper/modder or another team member who is competent.

Added a sentence to the language-specific point encouraging mappers/modders to provide an English summary if at all possible to ease understanding.

J1NX1337 wrote:

I think one thing that helps with the modder's approach when writing mods is to properly organize the mod structure, with for example lists and perhaps some square brackets for headers or bold/colored text for highlighting. It helps make the mods more comprehensible and more enjoyable to read for the mapper and everyone involved. It's not exactly essential of course but to my experience, it does convey a better feeling of the mod in general. It seems more proper, nice and less lazy because of the extra bit of effort put into it, I suppose. It doesn't of course mean that everyone who doesn't bother with aforementioned things or cleanliness made a bad mod though, definitely up to the modder. :P
I did consider adding this, but felt it would be too difficult to work in in a simple way (i.e. without covering several hundred possibilities) that fit the idea of this guide. Once the foundation of [Problem > Explanation > Suggestion] is understood, clarity via formatting will develop over time. The theme of "give to others what you would like to receive" should encourage people to put effort into making their mod posts understandable and accessible.

Discussed this with Loctav, we decided to provide a bit more representation after the "4-stages to a mod post" sub-section encouraging a lean towards simplicity for the sake of easier understanding.

Annika Flina wrote:

I'm not too good with words, so please bear with me here.

When I was looking through the mod queues, I noticed quite a few modding queues saying that they will only mod certain genres and/or songs that they like. I got rejected many times trying to get mods for my first map becuse the modders "didn't like my song".

While I understand that every person has their own preferences, I feel that modders should be able to step out of their comfort zone and be open to all genres of music presented to them by the mappers.

If the modder doesn't know how to mod a certain genre, that's okay. But rejecting a map just because they don't like the song is not something I think is acceptable, especially if the modder doesn't take into account the quality of the map presented to them.

Though I'm still new to mapping and modding, I feel that having modders be open to all genres of music would help mappers get more mods, and the modders would gain even more valuable knowledge on modding.

What do you guys think?
Everyone feels this way at times, but you have to remember that modding is a voluntary activity, often with little "reward". People are far more likely to mod what they like, for whom they like, when they like; either because they find it more enjoyable, or they can be more sure of what to expect and hence, what to look for, making the process easier. Some people don't like to leave their comfort zone, and that's fine - they can still make a positive contribution from there, and may yet open up in time. osu! is a diverse community, so the chances of you not being able to find anyone who shares the same preferences as you are slim. Keep mapping/modding/discussing/etc. and you'll meet new people, make friends and be able to gain experience and improve together!

The above still stands as it's all down to personal preference in the end, I'm just commenting here for the sake of completeness

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, these should be the final amendments so expect to see this incorporated into the Ranking Criteria very soon - stay tuned!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
Amending finally.

This Code of Conduct is in effect immediately. It is now a sub-section of the official Ranking Criteria (see https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria at the header) and can be found at https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Code_of_Conduct ... nd_Mapping.

Any future amendments and changes regarding this Code of Conduct will be handled just like any other Ranking Criteria changes. The CoC will remain an extension of the osu! community rules and therefore be a warrant of issuing penalties for severe infringements of such.

Most of the rules should be common sense already anyways and just explicitely apply the community rules to the modding and mapping environment.
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