Awesome work! Hope that this post explains a lot of things and misconceptions.
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad, and disliking something personally can still have merit - since I think most people agree that getting maps to the point where they're played because they're fun/challenging, and not unfair/otherwise is the end goal. I feel like this bullet point is a little bit better addressed in the main parts of the suggestion list you have. Imo it essentially boils down to, consider your mod to be a dialogue to the other mapper. If it's simply "move x to y" the whole time, or "you missed a note here", there might not be much need for elaboration, but when explaining patterns and expressing dislike, whether subjective or objective, it should be on the modder's side of the field to make sure the mapper understands their point of view.
Start with small changes to preserve the existing concept of the beatmap. Try more significant changes only if necessary.I think this is much less a code of conduct thing, but a general modding guideline? Not sure how necessary this is.
BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.
Awesome! Hopefully this will avoid those salty behaviours amongst mappers and modders when a beatmap is qualified and how their opinions are treated.Loctav wrote:
If you are a masochist, assume that all others are not.
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).Daikyi wrote:
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad...
I don't really get the term 'BN check', I mean, it's a normal mod isn't it why wouldn't it get kudosu? If the BN just ranks your map without modding then it's not a mod and doesn't get a kudosu. Rechecks / repeated mods don't get kudosu unless the map changed drastically (aka remap) and there is some months of time in between.Daikyi wrote:
I'm actually the most confused about giving kudosu. Mostly to BN checks, and repeated mods, what's the policy on that - I've never really seen any real set in stone thing other than "give kudosu to mods you found helpful, even if you didn't apply any changes to your map"
Also, with modding v2, potential changes to the kudosu system or something may be happening as well?
You are already supposed to skim through the mods a mapset has got and see if anything's not been applied. By doing that you get an overview of how the communication of the mapper and the modders has been. I don't think there is anything more behind this.appleeaterx wrote:
things
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).Exactly, I think this can be clarified a tiny bit in the code, since it's a tiny bit ambiguous imo right now
things about kudosuty for clarification lol, i guess common sense stuff
what are modders supposed to say about a map that is fundamentally flawed? the "making a mod post" section assumes the map is acceptable, so i don't think modders will understand how to criticize fundamental issues without appearing to force their preferencesLoctav wrote:
Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.appleeaterx wrote:
BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.
This wasn't completely what I meant tho; checking the map thread is already a thing, yes.Natsu wrote:
I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.
anyways seems good, this reminds me of this thread: t/151677
The goal of modding is to help a mapper improve their work so that it can achieve Ranked status. If you're not interested in helping people, steer clear of the discussion to avoid hurting them.I believe this is wrong/incomplete.
Loctav wrote:
Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!
Feels kinda redundant to have the same point in the paragraph above and in the bullet points too.Loctav wrote:
The modding process should assist modders as well as mappers - a good mod response will help the modder gain experience and allow them to make better, more detailed mod posts in the future.
Sorry to play the grammar nazi instead of giving feedback on the CoC itself, but someone has to to it /shrugLoctav wrote:
When things look to be getting out of hand, orofif the discussion is struggling to stay on topic, call a moderator - don't contribute to the problem by continuing to post.
I think it depends, If the design concept itself is flawed with current design, giving alternatives of "own styles" is still just "suggestions". Its either accept or not.Loctav wrote:
Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
It seems similar to up here, but he mention the Improvement of mapping ability to the mapper, and modder.Loctav wrote:
Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!
Exactly what I think, some people need to understand this.
- When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
Davin Fortune wrote:
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
Well when the mapper see the map with the structure, he/she says fine but when player play it and say it's bad, and suggest it. Isn't it just like a subjective stuff? Not necessarily. As a modder you need to testplay the map, along with the patterns to make sure it plays well. If something still goes through then the player only need to explain why it plays bad and give a possible(?) solution. Even if there is no possible solution given, we can make decision by following the explanation.
between me and various osu!mania mappers, i keep giving a damn warn many times about :Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
People are currently using this as an excuse to stop technical maps (such as HW's) from getting qualified, and I feel like the wording on this doesn't really specify that it's pointed at mapsets from new mappers and mappers that don't really know what they are doing. I think that the first part of the sentence could make it clearer about what kinds of map we're directing this toLoctav wrote:
- Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
Loctav wrote:
- Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in
it’sits current design - not force your own style upon it.