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Code of Conduct: Modding and Mapping

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Daikyi
190 posts
Joined April 2011
Daikyi
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad, and disliking something personally can still have merit - since I think most people agree that getting maps to the point where they're played because they're fun/challenging, and not unfair/otherwise is the end goal. I feel like this bullet point is a little bit better addressed in the main parts of the suggestion list you have. Imo it essentially boils down to, consider your mod to be a dialogue to the other mapper. If it's simply "move x to y" the whole time, or "you missed a note here", there might not be much need for elaboration, but when explaining patterns and expressing dislike, whether subjective or objective, it should be on the modder's side of the field to make sure the mapper understands their point of view.

Start with small changes to preserve the existing concept of the beatmap. Try more significant changes only if necessary.
I think this is much less a code of conduct thing, but a general modding guideline? Not sure how necessary this is.

Like, if this is a code of conduct, a lot of that section I feel like can be condensed with the "responding to a mod" section, because in the end, it's everyone wanting their maps to be better assuming the code of conduct is followed, and a "treat others the way you want to be treated" kinda comes into play i think.

========================

I'm actually the most confused about giving kudosu. Mostly to BN checks, and repeated mods, what's the policy on that - I've never really seen any real set in stone thing other than "give kudosu to mods you found helpful, even if you didn't apply any changes to your map"

Also, with modding v2, potential changes to the kudosu system or something may be happening as well?

========================

good guidelines though, based off of literally "common sense. think about what others are thinking. don't be a diq"
Mint
1,607 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint
BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.
Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.

Also, perhaps this should be up to the mapper. The maximum BNs and QATs can help other modders, is mostly with their attitude - I think the mapper should also take part in deciding on how helpful the mod / the attitude was. It's the mappers' work the modders are improving them after all, and not us - we don't have the direct connection between them.

Rest looks generally cool to me, as you said 'common sense' can be applied to most points anyways!
HappyRocket88
4,321 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88

Loctav wrote:

If you are a masochist, assume that all others are not.
Awesome! Hopefully this will avoid those salty behaviours amongst mappers and modders when a beatmap is qualified and how their opinions are treated.

The guide is really organized but I think "Making a Post" could be summarized with simple questions and answers instead of that making a manual of how to post your opinion. What I mean is that something like: what's bad for you?, why? and how/what would be better? could be more than enough in my opinion.

Looking forward to see this applied! Good job to Mr. JBHyperion! Currently working as a Professional Chair Thrower. What a tiring job! o:
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
Neat stuff!

The only thing I'm worried about is that this code suggests writing super huge paragraphs as mods, while keeping it short and simple is better 99% of the time in reality. Not every point in a mod needs those four steps, especially when modding experienced mappers' maps, it's better to keep it as one sentence unless it's a complicated issue.

Daikyi wrote:

When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
I don't think subjective opinions are necessarily bad...
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).

Daikyi wrote:

I'm actually the most confused about giving kudosu. Mostly to BN checks, and repeated mods, what's the policy on that - I've never really seen any real set in stone thing other than "give kudosu to mods you found helpful, even if you didn't apply any changes to your map"

Also, with modding v2, potential changes to the kudosu system or something may be happening as well?
I don't really get the term 'BN check', I mean, it's a normal mod isn't it why wouldn't it get kudosu? If the BN just ranks your map without modding then it's not a mod and doesn't get a kudosu. Rechecks / repeated mods don't get kudosu unless the map changed drastically (aka remap) and there is some months of time in between.
I have no idea what will happen to kudosu with modding v2 but it can't stay as it is simply because we won't be posting actual mod posts anymore (only single suggestions).

appleeaterx wrote:

things
You are already supposed to skim through the mods a mapset has got and see if anything's not been applied. By doing that you get an overview of how the communication of the mapper and the modders has been. I don't think there is anything more behind this.
meii18
3,577 posts
Joined October 2013
meii18
Nice ^^! I agree with that part to don't be so rude with the mapper plus avoiding the jokes while modding.I know modding is a bit boring and that's why mostly of modders (some of them let's say) are getting something to have some fun and also to hurt the mapper in my opinion.Even if you are getting bored,still you have to be polite while modding and also addresing the issues without jokes or anything hurtful so the mapper will get it what he/she have to fix.Looking forward on what will going on! :)
Daikyi
190 posts
Joined April 2011
Daikyi
Nobody said that, it's just that you make it clear if your suggestion is very subjective or not (this is especially important when modding inexperienced mappers' maps).
Exactly, I think this can be clarified a tiny bit in the code, since it's a tiny bit ambiguous imo right now

things about kudosu
ty for clarification lol, i guess common sense stuff
Mismagius
9,239 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Hey!

Gave the thread a quick read and it seems interesting and makes things much more clear and allows for constructive criticism to be actually supported and set in stone.
Just a small suggestion though, it was said that QATs from now on will only be helping to DQ maps through the community's reports. Maybe add a section instructing on how to act based on already-qualified maps (e.g. make sure that the issue presented isn't something intentional by the mapper/if it is intentional and unrankable, explain what point in the ranking criteria disallows it) so it makes these cases much clearer to judge. After all, not many people enjoy when the thread of a more complex mapping style is filled with "I can't read this, please DQ" etc.

When possible I'll try to give a few more suggestions, but for now this should be all
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Loctav wrote:

Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
what are modders supposed to say about a map that is fundamentally flawed? the "making a mod post" section assumes the map is acceptable, so i don't think modders will understand how to criticize fundamental issues without appearing to force their preferences
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Writing huge paragraphs as mods should only be necessary if that much information is required to understand your point. I found it in most situations more appropriate to get to your point in as little words as possible to remain understandable. Oftentimes only one convincing argument is needed instead of a barrage of a lot small ones / huge chunks of explanation.
xch00F
142 posts
Joined October 2012
xch00F
bad
Last edited by xch00F , edited 1 time in total.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

appleeaterx wrote:

BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.
Would like to see more explanation on this point though - so basically we mod mods before iconing the mapset? How will this system work? Do we have to rate the mod with some new kind of system or actually go out and contact the modders? A bit too vague in it's current state.
I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.

anyways seems good, this reminds me of this thread: t/151677
Mint
1,607 posts
Joined February 2013
Mint

Natsu wrote:

I always check every mod, before modding a map D:.

anyways seems good, this reminds me of this thread: t/151677
This wasn't completely what I meant tho; checking the map thread is already a thing, yes.
I was more referring to the vague messages sent in Discord & #modhelp about 'rating mods' and I wanted to know if that's actually going to be a thing :/
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The goal of modding is to help a mapper improve their work so that it can achieve Ranked status. If you're not interested in helping people, steer clear of the discussion to avoid hurting them.
I believe this is wrong/incomplete.
It's not solely about improving a specific work of a mapper with the exclusive purpose of pushing the map towards ranking.
Modding happens to give mappers feedback so they can reflect their work under various aspects.
This is not only good for improving a specific map but to improve the mapper's awareness and expertise on the matter which affects his future modding/mapping work in a positive way regardless of what happens to that specific map in the end.

tl;dr: Mods on maps that are not going to be ranked are valuable.

I'd suggest removing the part about Ranked Status or altering the wording because right now it sounds like it's not worthwhile to mod a map that is unlikely to get ranked.
Arusamour
424 posts
Joined April 2014
Arusamour
This is basically; How to be a more logical and mature human being.

This should be a big heads up to the people who are new to the mapping scene. Pretty sure most people who have years experience of modding can agree with this.

good post
-Mo-
Nomination Assessment Team
953 posts
Joined December 2012
-Mo-

Loctav wrote:

Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!

Loctav wrote:

The modding process should assist modders as well as mappers - a good mod response will help the modder gain experience and allow them to make better, more detailed mod posts in the future.
Feels kinda redundant to have the same point in the paragraph above and in the bullet points too.

Loctav wrote:

When things look to be getting out of hand, or of if the discussion is struggling to stay on topic, call a moderator - don't contribute to the problem by continuing to post.
Sorry to play the grammar nazi instead of giving feedback on the CoC itself, but someone has to to it /shrug
I might write some more valuable feedback later.
Secretpipe
3,316 posts
Joined December 2012
Secretpipe
A brief explanation of why this causes a problem - this is essential in convincing a mapper to even consider your suggestion. Mappers are much more receptive to criticism and change when it's accompanied by clear, understandable and valid reasoning.


Thank you for makin' it.
squirrelpascals
982 posts
Joined March 2015
squirrelpascals
I think the CoC makes some great points, for old and new modders/mappers alike. I would add something in there about new modders/mappers, because their mods naturally might not be as proficient (I know mine weren't). If this is necessary, maybe add a few passages in there similar to this

Potential "New Modder" Points
• Consider whether the person modding has past experience in mapping/modding. If not, it will make a lot of help to extend your mod reply, to point them in the right direction in considering which mods are most beneficial to the mapper, whether a mod may offend a mappers style, etc. Don't attack the modder for not making ideal mods and remember to consider why they might make a certain modding decision, as always.

• Don't shy away from modding a new mapper's map; they probably need it the most! Be elaborate in your mods for new mappers and consider the point above.

• If you're a new modder yourself, don't be afraid to say so yourself! Everybody was a new modder at one point, and saying so will only help you and the mapper more to point you in the right direction.


Also, maybe it would also be helpful to put the CoC in different languages (Mostly more prominent ones; French, Spanish). Browser translations, etc. are not always that clear.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes
CoC is great and all but it was already in place - just not in a written format. I was hoping to see specifics on how mappers that abuse the system with certain friend circles or crying oppression when someone gives a legitimate mod. It also extends to those who perpetuate the abuse (BN/QAT) by turning a blind eye when it involves fellow members of a circle. Why aren't there restrictions in place for mappers that repeatedly hand-wave such mods in such a flippant manner? Why are those in positions of power allowed to retain their status? Time and time again you see some truly ridiculous maps come out that end up with pages of debate (BN/QAT, modders and players alike) only to have it end up ranked in what is virtually the same state that caused the debate in the first place. I have no reason to place any faith in the CoC when it has already been in place for so long without making a difference.
Moeruattack
762 posts
Joined June 2014
Moeruattack

Loctav wrote:

Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
I think it depends, If the design concept itself is flawed with current design, giving alternatives of "own styles" is still just "suggestions". Its either accept or not.
If you wish to improve its current design to be more patternish, then its ok. But ruining the original purpose of the map might be problematic.

Loctav wrote:

Secondly, just as a mod post helps you to improve your mapping ability, providing a detailed mod response helps the modder improve their modding ability, meaning they gain experience and can provide more helpful and detailed mods in the future. You never know who you may need to ask for a mod next time around!
It seems similar to up here, but he mention the Improvement of mapping ability to the mapper, and modder.
Modder seems a bit alienated for me though. Sometimes rules kinda changed from time to time till it makes confusion, for example, CTB Rain from low BPM song getting AR9.1 or AR9.2 instead of AR9, CS minimum of Salad to 3.5 instead. I just don`t get it. This need to be mention soon though.

Other seems good :)
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
  1. When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.
Exactly what I think, some people need to understand this.
Kuki
722 posts
Joined October 2013
Kuki
sometimes it can be difficult to be honest and kind at the same time, some things are inherently not taken well while at the same time need to be stated
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
ow, awesome work
Davin Fortune
584 posts
Joined June 2014
Davin Fortune
When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.

Well when the mapper see the map with the structure, he/she says fine but when player play it and say it's bad, and suggest it. Isn't it just like a subjective stuff?

BNs and QATs will review previous mods before placing any icons and may want to initiate or revisit discussions during their checks. Any assistance you can provide as to why you did or didn’t do something takes very little effort, and could be a huge help to all parties later on.

I think it's something that forces the BN/QAT's to read the whole thread while they also have to check the map too
Remember they are busy people, however!
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Davin Fortune wrote:

When making suggestions, try to differentiate between what is intersubjectively or objectively bad or wrong, and what you simply dislike on a personal level.

Well when the mapper see the map with the structure, he/she says fine but when player play it and say it's bad, and suggest it. Isn't it just like a subjective stuff? Not necessarily. As a modder you need to testplay the map, along with the patterns to make sure it plays well. If something still goes through then the player only need to explain why it plays bad and give a possible(?) solution. Even if there is no possible solution given, we can make decision by following the explanation.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
About the language. While I think it is cool to mod in a language that is more comfortable to the mapper or modder, I think there should always be what mapper changed and what he didn't change in English, preferably. The reason is for example, I check all the previous mods on maps to know whether there weren't people with good points, in case they use language that is not international, you cannot really tell whether there weren't things worth a discussion. This problem is often happening to Chinese mappers (not saying anything against them, just these people tend to use their native language much more) and when they require you for a mod, you may accept that, but like 8/10 mods are Chinese, so you don't really know whether there was or wasn't feedback. You can obviously catch something by looking at the timestamps, but you cannot really always guess what was discussed here (or if it was even discussed).
Ciyus Miapah
3,011 posts
Joined June 2013
Ciyus Miapah
the conclusion about this story:
find mods is hard, just it

Resolution:
create EXP and Modding Level and create Modding Performance point please, so people will not being lazy or busy by using this farming Modding pp
use that rules to make that happen and modding world will be more better without many dramas or whatever is this game

how to get modding pp: get more kudos
how to get more kudos: mod people map
how to mod people map: this is subjective thing (99% of modding is by request from the others in Mod Queue or Message in game/forum)

osu needs Modding pp, so you can have mod from random people without requesting to them first. Profit
(this is just a suggestion, feel free to discuss this or no)
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
thanks for writing this CoC of modding & mapping, i hope more mappers (either old or new mappers) could do their best for their mapset while stay being chill!

chill
Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
between me and various osu!mania mappers, i keep giving a damn warn many times about :
> overall mapping style / structure / patterning should be more creative based upon of the song they're trying to map which its the main problem..
> pointing out that the those 3 stuff was found repeatedly in their current mapset...
> plus not to mention, those 3 stuff also found being same / similar in every single of their previous mapset, implying the song are different.."
and *insert long generalized mod here*

the feedback i usually got : keep, this is my style, i don't want to change it; simply just throw the diff away and give up; or in quiet rare case the mappers giving proper feedback & actually did a quiet improvement!

personal note : in defense of why i sometimes being brief and harsh : i don't see why people would even rank a map, by simply doing copy>paste>flip & throw the objects into editor and messes everything, just saying..
these causes the mappers ignoring the actual rhythm that are supposed to be layered with proper rhythm placement, based of the actual song itself..

i just want them to try something better for their mapset, no im not trying to be baka masochist, just because i gave a briefer modding & feedback..
also i love it when a mappers could be easily cooperative that its the best for their mapset to alter, change, remove, add, and improve their mapset as i give a mod.. it least tiring for me and for the mappers haha..
with this CoC being amended soon, hopefully i could get lesser similar experience, so once again thank you for writing this! :D
Ardiemerde
20 posts
Joined April 2015
Ardiemerde
Would love to translate this to Indonesian so that it could be localized.

Well, when it's amended though.
Lily Bread
1,228 posts
Joined December 2014
Lily Bread
a good post.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Thanks for all the feedback so far guys! I'll do my best to go over it in the coming days, so stay tuned for an update in the near future!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
As he said, we will review your input and make adjustments, before we reopen this discussion again. Thanks everybody for contributing!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
We are unlocking this thread to reopen the discussion about our adjusted Code of Conduct. Based on your suggestion, we have made various changes to the set of behavior rules and we wish everyone to participate once again!

When the deadline expires, we will lock this thread again and make final adjustments to the code of conduct before making it official part of the Ranking Criteria, so leave your feedback while there is still a chance!

Read the first post of the thread for all information!
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Looks pretty good on first read now.
Mismagius
9,239 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Hi, I'll probably edit this with more info later but

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
People are currently using this as an excuse to stop technical maps (such as HW's) from getting qualified, and I feel like the wording on this doesn't really specify that it's pointed at mapsets from new mappers and mappers that don't really know what they are doing. I think that the first part of the sentence could make it clearer about what kinds of map we're directing this to
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Tbh, I don't feel like HW ever had problems ranking her maps that feel more gimmicky. When even a map with SV6.2 overlapping fullscreensliders that won't get followed by the player ever (he will aim for each individual slidertick instead) gets serious modding I don't think there's any reason to worry. I don't mean to discuss about specific maps here (just an example how tolerant the community is towards experimental mappers) but when they're experimenting even experienced mappers who usually know what they're doing can create a design that is flawed or at least needs major adjustments. Simply because they're doing something new and their experience isn't worth as much in such cases.
Mismagius
9,239 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
but the point of that section is to point out objective issues, while these 'experiments' are often subjectively good/bad
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
I still don't think it needs a separate note. A separate note would easily boil down to something like
"If you don't understand the map cause the mapper is too pro, come back when you got good so you may see what's going on."
Which can easily be interpreted in the way that the modders are just too dumb to see the true genius of a map.

In terms of feedback it's not much different from letting two players play a map that is mapped on Insane-level but has Metadata as if one applied EZ-mod. One is a regular EZ-player and the other isn't. The former can play it and will actually be capable to say something about the map's quality. The latter can't play it nor say something about the quality but the feedback he he will give regarding the map's readibility with EZ is still not worthless.
The example is obviously a bit extreme because even the EZ-player can tell the mapper that the map is hard to read but on more nuanced levels such issues might not be as obvious to the experienced player.
The mapper is free to disagree with the proposal of remapping and can work together with the person who doesn't understand a thing to make the map more accessible while keeping the desired theme. After all the modder hopefully gives reasons why he thinks it should get remapped. From there everything can only get better.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s its current design - not force your own style upon it.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Topic Starter
Loctav
Well, doesn't seem like we gathered much this time. Thanks everybody anyways! We are locking this for now while we review and try to address the last issue people mentioned in this set of rules before moving onwards to amending this CoC to the Ranking Criteria.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
Fixed the typo pointed out!

After discussing the remaining concerns, we decided that the current wording is sufficient. Expanding on it further would open loopholes by attempting to cover a plethora of edge cases which would defeat the purpose of a clear and concise guide. I'm confident we can push this forward in its current state, so we'll give this a final two weeks to see if anything else comes up.

New Deadline: Thursday 11th August 2016

Thanks for your help and suggestions everyone!
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