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osz2 and SB/skin Elements: a Discussion

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mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
This doesn't happen often with storyboards. Most mappers sufficiently dedicated to SB will know better than to make their maps invisible. It is a pretty big problem with skins, backgrounds, and kiai use.

I forsee a mass removal of offending storyboards and skins coming once osz2 is out the door. Ranking requirements will be stricter and penalties will be harsher for BATs ranking bad storyboards.

Guy-kun wrote:

you want to be 'the very best'
Like no one ever was
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea

Guy-kun wrote:

One last thing to say at any reply after mine,

Customization > Elite gameplay

Go somewhere else (like stepmania) if you want elitist opportunities, osu! is more about the community and not throwing away mappers' efforts because you want to be 'the very best'
Just being curious, who made that formula?

Also, as a mapper, if efforts (skin, SB) make people annoying when "playing" then I will hope they can be turned off, instead of make people less fun.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Storyboarding is imo not as big of a problem as the skin of the map. When osz2 comes out and you won't be able to remove the skin, gameplay is going to get ruined for alot of people. It doesn't matter if we have BATs/GMT's who are here to moderate these stuff, annoying skins/SB's will always get ranked no matter what. The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

Gabi wrote:

Storyboarding is imo not as big of a problem as the skin of the map. When osz2 comes out and you won't be able to remove the skin, gameplay is going to get ruined for alot of people. It doesn't matter if we have BATs/GMT's who are here to moderate these stuff, annoying skins/SB's will always get ranked no matter what. The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway

[edit]
Implying that it really pisses me off when people feel the need to do it.
Last edited by Guy-kun , edited 1 time in total.
Fuuko
486 posts
Joined June 2009
Fuuko

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Mismagius
9,237 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds)
I am totally late, but I have to say you're a bit wrong there.
My osu! runs at 50-60 fps (even without frame limiter). If I play a map with heavy storyboarding (Like your Okami map), the fps drops to a unplayable 25fps, making it ridiculously impossible to even MOVE the cursor.

My computer isn't really old, only 3 years actually. Even when I had a better OS (XP) I had a lot of lags SB-related.

So yeah, the problem with me isn't "you can't remove the SB anymore", it's "you can't remove the SB anymore and fuck you if you have a shitty computer". Here in my country (at least where I live), "good" computers are ridiculously expensive, costing around US$3500.
NotShinta
1,021 posts
Joined September 2009
NotShinta
Yeah, I hate how people won't appreciate something that took effort and is actually pretty good (e.g. Jarto) and are like LOLDELETE.

On the other hand, if a storyboard somehow stops you from playing, something's not right. I would support deleting SBs in this case, but the above irks me too much so no.

But out of curiosity, how will modders be able to check the folders like they can now with osz2 for something important? Or the mapper themselves if something explodes?
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN

Galkan92 wrote:

ShaggoN wrote:

But if main change is include SB in file and make ppl not able to remove it and put back when they want then... NO! I don't want to see osz2, i'm scared of it.
Don't delete every SB you see (because it's just SB) until it annoys you to the point you can't play. Just stay neutral and try to play with it.
Who said i'm deleting every SB? o_O

Guy-kun wrote:

Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway
In most of my cases, i'm removing these things to have fun with map, which annoys me with sb, and it's awesome without sb. In specific cases when i want to get a good score play. I put SB back, to have fun with it in next plays (if i like this SB of course :| ).
Last edited by ShaggoN , edited 1 time in total.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

0_o wrote:

Would it be possible to make it so that storyboard objects that are epilepsy threats could be flagged as such in the osb, then have a toggle to remove epilepsy-inducing storyboard elements?
Came here to make this post pretty much. There should be ability to disable SB elements when there is a legitimate health concern. However, being able to see past "distracting" storyboards and play the map well regardless is a skill, just like any other aspect of playing the game. Besides, sometimes storyboards can add something gameplay-wise to a map. (see maps like NB Rangers: Returns or Disturbia) It'd be really lame to delete SB from maps like that but I'm sure there are people who would... it'd be nice as a mapper to be able to make maps like that knowing that the SB I added won't be deleted.

A question about osz2: how would modding work? Would SB and whatnot be freely editable to modders while the map is unranked? Say someone were to delete SB elements while the map was pending, and then the map got ranked. Would they have a limited edition version of the map without SB elements in it? :P

edit: I guess my last paragraph kind of repeats what NotShinta said a couple posts up... still curious though!
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
I really can't make a final comment until I know the osz2 specs. All I've heard are comments by staff, there doesn't appear to be an actual list/description of what osz2 will do, except that it will apparently fix all sorts of problems at the cost of the system being proprietary, not a regular ZIP archive.

That being said, I would agree that storyboards are part of the map, and should not be able to be removed. There are enough hoops to jump through by the ranking process to prevent storyboard distraction and lack of epilepsy warnings. The newly implemented SB Load should help reduce the problems for older machines, which I am quite sympathetic to. After all of these efforts, it would be a great shame if the effort was thrown away as something extraneous.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY

Guy-kun wrote:

Go somewhere else (like stepmania) if you want elitist opportunities, osu! is more about the community and not throwing away mappers' efforts because you want to be 'the very best'

Guy-kun wrote:

Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway

Responsing to the above two claims:


KRZY wrote:

Well, I believe it is a preference matter. Some people, like myself, really likes to play with a black background and simple-toned notes because we simply don't like flashy and decorative stuff. This preference, imo, should be respected and not just ignored by people saying "deal with it." Understand that there are people who have different tastes than yours. Think of it on the same terms as people designing and using custom skins to play.
There is more to this than just wanting a higher score.

Also, changed the discussion topic so that it includes skin elements as well as SB elements also since some posts convinced me to think that skin elements as well as SB elements can be a problem.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
This is somehow one thing I am totally in agreement with. Though personally some of my maps just don't look right without the SB, it would be on the option of the player to delete them anyway... that doesn't mean everyone else will delete them. If everyone else did, then the SB is just probably that fugly.

Though if we take into skins into account... meh, I'll be more on the delete-able side of things. Unlike SB, the skin elements actually directly affect gameplay.
mekadon_old
mekadon_old
Some SB's cause major lags on some PC's, especially those which have a video-like storyboards like Neko Miko Reimu or Don't Stop Me Now or whatsoever. Even my PC can run at 60fps (VSync) with those SBs with me having a single-core processor and a mere 1GB RAM and an IDE hard drive I still can play it well. (Note even my PC can only use OpenGL)

I don't see any problem with SBs though I have a mild epilepsy, which doesn't cause much problem with me even when playing StrangeProgram or Ritsuen; which I might conclude as a challenge rather than a restriction, though I might have a mild headache after playing them.

Skins however, like what Zekira said, slightly affects gameplay. HP bars, hitcircles, cursors, etc. might change the mood of gameplay on a certain map. e.g. if a map's skin is so goddamn horrible you don't have the will to play the map at all. However, that depends on a specific player as each has different taste on certain things.

IMO the only thing I think is okay to delete in a map is the skin elements. For SBs? I go for 50% of it, since I'm very confident that some people's PC specs are far worse than me.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
GUISE I WANT BIGGAR NOTES I CANT SEE/CLICK NOTES

AND SMALLER HP BAR ITS DISTRACTING

I WANT AUTOAIM TOO PLAYING WITH SHIT MOUSE IS HARD

WAIT THATS THEIR ALREADY RANKED IT PLEASE


Quick steps to not looking like a total idiot:
  1. Ensure you meet reasonable system requirements and have reasonable settings set in osu! and your environment which do not, by themselves, detriment gameplay.
  2. Report maps which cause problems.
  3. Don't post in this thread.
LaCreme
54 posts
Joined August 2010
LaCreme
What about maximum fps regulation for SBs
and minimum contrast ratio for skins.

Some SBs have glowing/flashing effects at a relatively high fps that are really bad for our eyes and can cause lags.
Also, skins that have have almost minimal contrast from the background, I find ridiculous.
Anyways, I would definitely opt for an option to delete skins/sbs at my leisure.
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya
My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
We already have restrictions of SB load to ensure performance isn't affected by storyboards (if you find a map that runs very badly please report it so we can take action). Also I'm not reading this discussion, just saying :).
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

LaCreme wrote:

What about maximum fps regulation for SBs
and minimum contrast ratio for skins.

Some SBs have glowing/flashing effects at a relatively high fps that are really bad for our eyes and can cause lags.
Also, skins that have have almost minimal contrast from the background, I find ridiculous.
Anyways, I would definitely opt for an option to delete skins/sbs at my leisure.
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158

[Takuya] wrote:

My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158

peppy wrote:

Also I'm not reading this discussion, just saying :).
No one is, or they'd realize what they're saying has been said years ago.

Also, read #--
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk
May I suggest something which would make ALL mappers happy, and even some players much happier...

A few options could be added to the editor which could be ticked by a mapper, which would grant permission for a player to disable certain elements from a map during gameplay?

Such as:

1) Flashing/Strobing lights
2) Kaia time
3) Storyboard
etc...

Then a player selects these options in the song selection menu screen for enabling/disabling these features for the maps that support it. This way, mappers can then decide on what is more important to them when releasing a map...

1) Have their map played by everyone, due to allowing individual game elements to be disabled during the game.
2) Have their map played only as they intended it to be played, which would mean having their map being played by less people and would be less popular (playcount wise, not quality wise) due to this reason.

:)
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN
Would be great hmm.
But i sware i'll drink whole bottle of vodka in one shot if it comes in. XD
EvianBubble
339 posts
Joined October 2009
EvianBubble

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
I support this. As both a player and a mapper I understand why you might want to disable SB. I've made a SB before and I know how much effort goes into it, but quite honestly if someone didn't want to use it, why force them? There's really no point and it'd just end up with a lot of unhappy people. I've skinned songs too, so I say the same thing about skinning - if you don't want to use skin elements, I think they should be delete - able

adamskii_uk wrote:

May I suggest something which would make ALL mappers happy, and even some players much happier...

A few options could be added to the editor which could be ticked by a mapper, which would grant permission for a player to disable certain elements from a map during gameplay?

Such as:

1) Flashing/Strobing lights
2) Kaia time
3) Storyboard
etc...

Then a player selects these options in the song selection menu screen for enabling/disabling these features for the maps that support it. This way, mappers can then decide on what is more important to them when releasing a map...

1) Have their map played by everyone, due to allowing individual game elements to be disabled during the game.
2) Have their map played only as they intended it to be played, which would mean having their map being played by less people and would be less popular (playcount wise, not quality wise) due to this reason.

:)
+1 support (though I doubt this would be implemented)

... Anyway. Just my thoughts on this :P
rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

[Takuya] wrote:

My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
There is something wrong with your computer, my old computer was from 2000, had 512 RAM, and a 1GHz processor. It ran DSMN with almost no problem even in full screen without Low-end PC checked. You may just need to reformat (Which I did to my old computer and it helped a lot) or your video card may not be up to par for the game.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
You have both missed the most important part of your PC specs: the graphics card. This decides whether osu! will run or not, as the biggest pull osu! has is on fill rate. Integrated graphics cards generally can't draw too many pixels to the screen per frame.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

peppy wrote:

.
Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
That thing about skins is so true... I can't really stand playing some maps because they got a skin which just gets in the way (like you don't even notice if you hit a 300/100/50/missed, or you get an huge 300), thanks god some maps just try to load the skin and, if you don't have it, then you go with the default one (like many Touhou maps).
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

TKiller wrote:

Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
This.
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun
Shut up everyone :l
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old

Guy-kun wrote:

Shut up everyone :l
How about no.

TKiller wrote:

Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
Pretty much this. And custom skinned hits in Taiko piss me off, even when I have taiko forced [I haven't played the newest osu! build so don't yell at me if this has been changed.]

As far as SB's go: I like looking at storyboards, but pretty much any of them that have flashes, strobes, etc., are extremely distracting. No, i'm not bitching because they lag my PC [yeah, I can play on a netbook just fine so people bitching about SB lag should probably stop], or I want a really high score, but some of them are just over-the-top.

And why didn't anybody mention this SB? My eyes are burning. I can appreciate when people take creative liberties, but what the hell. Seriously?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

E-Hooker wrote:

Guy-kun wrote:

Shut up everyone :l
How about no.
How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old

Guy-kun wrote:

E-Hooker wrote:

How about no.
How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Just because it's useless, doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
If you think it's useless, then don't post, yeah?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

E-Hooker wrote:

Guy-kun wrote:

How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Just because it's useless, doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
If you think it's useless, then don't post, yeah?
It's my opinion that it's useless to try, stop denying me of my opinion.
This is for discussion.
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old
Then really, stop being so negative, because then you're "denying people of their opinion" as well.
maay
429 posts
Joined September 2009
maay
yes im agre
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
Actually I'm switching a bit now...

I'm more on the untouchable SB elements[/s] side now,

but if possible, [b]a toggle to force own skin when playing please. I have never actually used any custom skins from maps; just delete them and use either the default skin, Okami skin, or Taiko skin. I many of the skins in the maps to be well-made and I can't say anything negative much about them, but the fact remains that it hinders my gameplay.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya

peppy wrote:

You have both missed the most important part of your PC specs: the graphics card. This decides whether osu! will run or not, as the biggest pull osu! has is on fill rate. Integrated graphics cards generally can't draw too many pixels to the screen per frame.
My crappy one
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: #3
4,845 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY
Guy-kun and strager, you greatly amuse me by trying to deny people the right to post in this thread, thanks, but please do figure out the fact that you have no power whatsoever to do so, and by trying you merely look comical.

Some good points raised in this thread, it's a pity ppy already seems to have made up his mind. There will be additional discussions on this once osz2 is actually implemented I'm sure.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

KRZY wrote:

Some good points raised in this thread
Which have been discussed a long time ago.

KRZY wrote:

it's a pity ppy already seems to have made up his mind.
Because of the discussions a long time ago, and his own objectives and his vision for osu!.

KRZY wrote:

There will be additional discussions on this once osz2 is actually implemented I'm sure.
Which will probably be as stupid as this thread.

You have to realize that you're not discussing anything important. You're making yourselves look pretty stupid, for the most part. (There are exceptions, but there are always exceptions.) If you don't post here, you can avoid that and save some time.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Sometimes I like you, strager.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

peppy wrote:

Sometimes I like you, strager.
Sometimes I like you too, peppy.
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