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osz2 and SB/skin Elements: a Discussion

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KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,850 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY

Guy-kun wrote:

i think there is -no- need to ever remove themes, maps that have annoying/hard to use themes are crap anyway, deal with it.

What if you just simply wanted to remove SB elements because you play better that way? One role of a game operator is to ensure that every player is given a fair chance, and disabling the choice of removing SB elements from a map is denying that chance to players who just cannot play with SB elements because they are distracted. I really do not see why the option of disabling SB is not offered, what Eph said makes sense but that is no reason to not offer SB disabling.


EDIT: to make myself clearer:

Ephemeral wrote:

this is why the requests for a SB toggle have been repeatedly denied; because such incidents should not even be happening in the first place
Well, is the fact that such incidents should not be happening in the first place really related to players' wishes that SB toggle should be available? If it does not matter either way, then why not just offer it? :P I think I fail to see a compelling reason to not offer an option to disable SB.
Last edited by KRZY , edited 2 times in total.
maay
410 posts
Joined September 2009
maay
GAMEPLAY OVER PRETTINESS
Vpalach
150 posts
Joined January 2010
Vpalach
It seems, that this implemention is decided already and even the fact, that quite many players don't agree with it won't help at all :[
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
I still have to understand the whole fuss about this matter.

People say that Storyboards like Jarto's are badly drawn and distracting.
Well, that's the point? The same thing would happen even if it was a video, but you can disable it so you guys don't give a damn about that.
Also: they're funny.

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds)

People say that SB don't let you play correctly.
You only think about scores, do you?

People is worried about epilepsy.
There's the warning for that, it appears right after you start the map.

People complain about SB using fake hitobjects.
I didn't really see many maps doing that, but i remember a few that were awesome in that aspect ( Megurine Luka - DYE for example)

People complain.
Yet i see lots of this "incriminated storyboarded maps" with posts saying "star" all over the place. Or with people being enthusiast for the work.

I'm a storyboarder myself, all these things people say just make me go "what the hell do you guys want?"
I see replays with people playing with a black BG and really small or no hitbusts at all just to "be able to FC it easily".
If you want my opinion, i want my maps to be enjoyed like i made them: BG, SB, hitsounds, skin and whatever i added.
You don't like that? Delete it, there are more than 20k maps in the database, you can find something else.

You guys still think that "everything should be played by everyone" but that's impossibile to achieve.

tl;dr: yes i want osz2, i've been waiting for it for more than a year.

inb4ragestorm against me.
Last edited by Card N'FoRcE , edited 1 time in total.
dNextGen
4,688 posts
Joined May 2010
dNextGen

SuperMaay wrote:

GAMEPLAY OVER PRETTINESS
^^



Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People say that SB don't let you play correctly.
You only think about scores, do you?
YES


Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds)
it makes my cursor dont move properly
Sup A Noob
555 posts
Joined November 2009
Sup A Noob

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

I still have to understand the whole fuss about this matter.

People say that Storyboards like Jarto's are badly drawn and distracting.
Well, that's the point? The same thing would happen even if it was a video, but you can disable it so you guys don't give a damn about that.
Also: they're funny.

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds)

People say that SB don't let you play correctly.
You only think about scores, do you?

People is worried about epilepsy.
There's the warning for that, it appears right after you start the map.

People complain about SB using fake hitobjects.
I didn't really see many maps doing that, but i remember a few that were awesome in that aspect ( Megurine Luka - DYE for example)

People complain.
Yet i see lots of this "incriminated storyboarded maps" with posts saying "star" all over the place. Or with people being enthusiast for the work.

I'm a storyboarder myself, all these things people say just make me go "what the hell do you guys want?"
I see replays with people playing with a black BG and really small or no hitbusts at all just to "be able to FC it easily".
If you want my opinion, i want my maps to be enjoyed like i made them: BG, SB, hitsounds, skin and whatever i added.
You don't like that? Delete it, there are more than 20k maps in the database, you can find something else.

You guys still think that "everything should be played by everyone" but that's impossibile to achieve.

tl;dr: yes i want osz2, i've been waiting for it for more than a year.

inb4ragestorm against me.
I'm agreeing with you here.

I'm one of those players who take on any storyboard, anyway.
Xgor
Elite Mapper
2,534 posts
Joined April 2009
Xgor
There is a problem if the SB makes it lag but with SB load implanted this shouldn't be happing.

And, about storyboards being distracting. Just see it as a additional challenge to the map~
dNextGen
4,688 posts
Joined May 2010
dNextGen

Xgor wrote:

There is a problem if the SB makes it lag but with SB load implanted this shouldn't be happing.

And, about storyboards being distracting. Just see it as a additional challenge to the map~
No
maay
410 posts
Joined September 2009
maay

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People say that SB don't let you play correctly.
You only think about scores, do you?
For the most part, yes, I do. But that's because I believe skins and storyboards CAN AND SHOULD be made in a way they don't ruin gameplay. Am I asking for the impossible...?

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People is worried about epilepsy.
There's the warning for that, it appears right after you start the map.
suppose I have AIDS in my left eye and that I'd die from epilepsy if I played a map with many flashes. Currently, I could still enjoy the map by deleting the storyboard, even if not as much as I would if I played it with the storyboard. However, with osz2, I would no longer be able to play it. :(

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People complain about SB using fake hitobjects.
I didn't really see many maps doing that, but i remember a few that were awesome in that aspect ( Megurine Luka - DYE for example)
oh come on, no one complains about those. In fact, I have only seen fake hitbojects in two maps: Marshmallow and ZUN's Emotional Skyscraper (and I quite like the effect).

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

You guys still think that "everything should be played by everyone" but that's impossibile to achieve.
Why is that impossible at present? Disregarding skill, of course...
Last edited by maay , edited 1 time in total.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira

SuperMaay wrote:

GAMEPLAY OVER PRETTINESS
If there's something I can say about this statement, it's about balancing both. Not just SB; I've been bitched many, many, many times how I've overmapped almost every map I have, and while my mapping didn't really break anything, I am being asked nicely to tone it down just so that it would look 'appropriate', but that would usually mean a lesser score. In terms of gameplay, I still believe that only the best players deserve to Full Combo stuff, but seems like we can't live on that premise alone.

In regards to SB, I'm actually a bit half-half on it... I have maps that I don't want the SB deleted, but I also have maps which I don't really mind people deleting the SB. For me it's a situational thing...
Galkan
Global Moderator
2,024 posts
Joined September 2009
Galkan
My PC can run Crysis on full details in 1280x1024, so simply I don't care about hardware lag due to flashy sb and that stuff. In the other hand, I feel sorry for those people who don't have that luck and play osu on 800x600 and low-end PC option turned on ('cause this way is really against them) But from the PoV of people who want osz2 ASAP is really crappy to delete every single thing in skin/sb only for achieving high score easier purpose. Isn't it just the function of them? IMO making game look better/harder isn't bad (unless it's in same or similar colours as background image, but this is the mapper's "fault" at this point.

Also, what Ephemeral said.
Mara
4,907 posts
Joined November 2009
Mara
Get a better PC. SB effects are awesome and gives life to map.

Someone blamed Jarto SB, but I'll say those SBs are awesome.
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

I still have to understand the whole fuss about this matter.

People say that Storyboards like Jarto's are badly drawn and distracting.
Well, that's the point? The same thing would happen even if it was a video, but you can disable it so you guys don't give a damn about that.
Also: they're funny. Yes they are, i can have fun and laugh a lot watching sb like that, or other cool stuff. However i care much about my acc, and i want to get ss. With SB on i'm usually not able to get it. Then i remove it, get my ss, and put it back in folder to have fun with it again.

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds) Actually i didn't ever had any lag because of SB either. (Can't say that about kiai btw)

People say that SB don't let you play correctly.
You only think about scores, do you? Not really. Sometimes when there is song that i like a lot, and it's mapped great, oh i love the map and i want to enjoy the play. But annoying SB is not allowing me to enjoy it. I'm lucky that i'm still able to remove it.

People is worried about epilepsy.
There's the warning for that, it appears right after you start the map. Indeed.

People complain about SB using fake hitobjects.
I didn't really see many maps doing that, but i remember a few that were awesome in that aspect ( Megurine Luka - DYE for example) I never complained about fake objects, cause even if i fail on it, it's usually making me laugh cause it's funny.
I didn't considered other changes in osz2 yet, cause i just simply don't know them yet. :|
But if main change is include SB in file and make ppl not able to remove it and put back when they want then... NO! I don't want to see osz2, i'm scared of it.
Jarby
2,962 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby
I don't think it's fair for the people with epilepsy to be effectively banned from playing the latest Nightcore map with outrageous strobing. Beyond that, I believe the storyboard is a part of the final map as a product and shouldn't be permitted to be removed.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
Just a thought: I think the implementation of this 'feature' in osz2 should also bring about stricter rules about SBing in terms of map playability. Like, strobing effects should be moderated more (but not fully purged) to at least make a epilepsy-prone person to survive for at most 10 minutes of good rest time after playing that map.

To compare, many video games warn the user about health problems, and epilepsy is one of the most common e.g. Time Crisis games have this both on the manual and as an in-game warning. And because they know of these risks, they can adjust accordingly to the effects they use in the game.
Galkan
Global Moderator
2,024 posts
Joined September 2009
Galkan

ShaggoN wrote:

But if main change is include SB in file and make ppl not able to remove it and put back when they want then... NO! I don't want to see osz2, i'm scared of it.
Don't delete every SB you see (because it's just SB) until it annoys you to the point you can't play. Just stay neutral and try to play with it.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,850 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY
So far, the only plausible reason I have seen for not allowing the deletion of SB elements is Jarby's, who stated that SB elements should be regarded as part of the map as a final product and should not be allowed to be removed, just like you cannot remove notes from a map.

Well, I believe it is a preference matter. Some people, like myself, really likes to play with a black background and simple-toned notes because we simply don't like flashy and decorative stuff. This preference, imo, should be respected and not just ignored by people saying "deal with it." Understand that there are people who have different tastes than yours. Think of it on the same terms as people designing and using custom skins to play.

Also, the fact that something should not cause lags does not mean it does not cause lags. Please, understand the difference. As peppy has countlessly reiterated, lagging is a problem mainly concerned with individual PCs, not the code of the program.
Fuuko
486 posts
Joined June 2009
Fuuko
SPOILER

SPOILER

I feel sorry for people with a low-end pc that tries to run that kind of map. lol ( I know it's been made before the SB Load was implemented, but come on, if you can't expect it to be THAT high, you're blind. )

I think not being able to delete a SB is really stupid. I've got a good pc now that basically doesn't lag not even with Bakaru's or Sterrum's stuff. Not even with kiai on those. But when I had a crappy pc, even a simple SB'd map like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/14690 made me lag. I don't care about the score ( hence why I'm, like, #15k lol ), but not being able to enjoy one of your favourite songs just because of the SB is something everyone doesn't want. I'm sure of it.

SBs are good, distracting, funny, you have a nice time with it. But that's ONLY when you can reproduce those. If you lag with it, and starts to miss with it, it's something really annoying.

Maybe trying to ask for something perfect is impossible, but come on. If people can't play some good map just because of lag, this game will be pointless.
maay
410 posts
Joined September 2009
maay

Zekira wrote:

Just a thought: I think the implementation of this 'feature' in osz2 should also bring about stricter rules about SBing in terms of map playability. Like, strobing effects should be moderated more (but not fully purged) to at least make a epilepsy-prone person to survive for at most 10 minutes of good rest time after playing that map.
yeah, I'm pretty sure that goes without saying. The ranking criteria would most certainly change when osz2 is implemented.
But then, storyboard effects would probably need to be waaay more simple so that most players could play the map without lag.
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi
As a mapper: I waste my time adding/making skins and storyboards because it's the way I want the map to be played by others, therefore I agree with the decision of not being able to delete them.

As a player: Some specific beatmaps have annoying skins/storyboards that would improve my playing on them if I delete the skin/storyboard (examples here, here, here and here), therefore I don't agree with the decision of not being able to delete them.

I would say I'm neutral about this, but I'm not. Everything can be optimized and improved if we actually care and bother to do it, so people wouldn't complain that much about this. That's why SB Load was implemented and that's why there are some rules about sprites resolution and all that.

Exceptions? Yes, there are exceptions, but probably those are storyboards with a high amount of things going on at the same time (and most of them have usually a warning on the description).
Mistakes? Yes, there are mistakes, but we're all human and these kind of things happen.

ps: To be quite honest, I think Kiai Time lags way more than a storyboard and you can't delete that, but whatever xP
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I'm neither against osz2 nor for it. I'm neutral on this situation.

As a player, it annoys me when the custom skin for the map, or the storyboad, makes it impossible for me to play. In this case, I delete the skin/storyboard, and there you go. It's a bad move from me because I'm denying the work from the mapper, but I want to enjoy their maps rather than hate them for something that can be so easily overcome.

One thing though, about epilepsy: for now, epileptic people can remove the storyboards that cause epilepsy and can enjoy all the maps. But when os2 comes out, if as planned players won't be able to remove the storyboard, epileptic people won't be able to enjoy all the maps, and this is a problem.

Then again, some storyboards were made to be distractive (in some approved maps for instance), and some others are a very nice addition to the map (such as http://osu.ppy.sh/s/16008 ). Storyboards are part of the map as much as skins any the diff themselves.
However, people started abusing it, making storyboards and skins that made the gameplay not enjoyable. As for heavy storyboards and slow computers, not everyone can affort a very powerful computer that can run osu! at its full capacity. But there aren't many storyboards that are this heavy, so just avoid playing the maps.

As long as storyboards are concerned, what about collabs ? The storyboarded names are important to know who mapped what part. Although usually these storyboards are light and cause no problem, some maps have heavy storyboards on top of it, which may cause lag and be what some people whine about.

The only real issue I see coming with osz2 is epilepsy. I don't know how to fix it, but all the other issues are just people not being capable of adapting to what they face.

On a sidenote, how will modders check the content of the .osz file ?
Vpalach
150 posts
Joined January 2010
Vpalach
I don't quite understand mappers way of thinking "i want it to be played like this", even if some players will find it as worsening of map. I thought u should aim to make every player enjoy ur map as much as possible instead.
Ibuki Suika
1,254 posts
Joined March 2010
Ibuki Suika
lol
if osz2 can allow me close SB,I'm very approval
But if not allowed to remove BG,I against

Everyone has his own pursuit of

When some time to their limit,
"remove BG will better"
How would they do?

I know some well-known PRO,Their experience of a one is "play HR(hight OA)+HD,must del skin&BG"
"Delete BG can improve the player's reaction time"

Why have that opportunity, but does not allow players to try it :?

In CTB.In the dark background, black fruit difficult to see,I often replace it into the gray
I think if i can't change it,I will Lost a lot of small fruit :o
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea
Some maps have awesome SB, I enjoy watching it when I am specing and I sometimes even watch that with auto. But those SB mostly fuck me up when I am playing. Maybe I just have bad eyes, but IMO, before we can have osu on NDS or something double screen, having option to enable/disable SB will be good.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
Would it be possible to make it so that storyboard objects that are epilepsy threats could be flagged as such in the osb, then have a toggle to remove epilepsy-inducing storyboard elements?
Roddie
osu! Alumni
1,468 posts
Joined June 2009
Roddie
I don't really mind the Storyboard. That doesn't distract me as much. There are some good, some bad, and some not so much, but I won't delete them. Custom skins I have to play on some maps however...I don't like. Mostly because there are some that lag my PC for every 15 seconds when I start playing them. Sure it won't lag as much if I keep playing it, but I don't see that working as much. =/ And some that affects how I play. If I had to play a map with a bad skin, I won't be able to play it properly because it makes it hard to see and I keep getting a low accuracy because of it. :( Like this map for example. Seeing that osz2 is coming out soon...... I can't delete bad skins on some maps anymore and I have to play them by force. D; "Don't play that map with a bad skin, then." is not a good excuse. >_> When osz2 comes out and If there are maps that are pending and I have happened to play their custom skin that is bad, I'm going to have to ask the mapper that I strongly suggest on removing that. We'll see how it goes when osz2 comes out.

Edit: Fixed a typo error.
Last edited by Roddie , edited 2 times in total.
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun
One last thing to say at any reply after mine,

Customization > Elite gameplay

Go somewhere else (like stepmania) if you want elitist opportunities, osu! is more about the community and not throwing away mappers' efforts because you want to be 'the very best'
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
This doesn't happen often with storyboards. Most mappers sufficiently dedicated to SB will know better than to make their maps invisible. It is a pretty big problem with skins, backgrounds, and kiai use.

I forsee a mass removal of offending storyboards and skins coming once osz2 is out the door. Ranking requirements will be stricter and penalties will be harsher for BATs ranking bad storyboards.

Guy-kun wrote:

you want to be 'the very best'
Like no one ever was
deepsea
osu! Alumni
855 posts
Joined April 2008
deepsea

Guy-kun wrote:

One last thing to say at any reply after mine,

Customization > Elite gameplay

Go somewhere else (like stepmania) if you want elitist opportunities, osu! is more about the community and not throwing away mappers' efforts because you want to be 'the very best'
Just being curious, who made that formula?

Also, as a mapper, if efforts (skin, SB) make people annoying when "playing" then I will hope they can be turned off, instead of make people less fun.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Storyboarding is imo not as big of a problem as the skin of the map. When osz2 comes out and you won't be able to remove the skin, gameplay is going to get ruined for alot of people. It doesn't matter if we have BATs/GMT's who are here to moderate these stuff, annoying skins/SB's will always get ranked no matter what. The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

Gabi wrote:

Storyboarding is imo not as big of a problem as the skin of the map. When osz2 comes out and you won't be able to remove the skin, gameplay is going to get ruined for alot of people. It doesn't matter if we have BATs/GMT's who are here to moderate these stuff, annoying skins/SB's will always get ranked no matter what. The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway

[edit]
Implying that it really pisses me off when people feel the need to do it.
Last edited by Guy-kun , edited 1 time in total.
Fuuko
486 posts
Joined June 2009
Fuuko

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,344 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

People say that SB make the computer lag.
Oh come on. My PC is, like, 6 years old and it doesn't suffer from any SB, i even use the Shader Effects! It's true that sometimes some SBs are not optimized enough (storyboarding is more complicated than it seems, coding-wise) but there are already some limits for that (like the 800*600 max resolution for Backgrounds)
I am totally late, but I have to say you're a bit wrong there.
My osu! runs at 50-60 fps (even without frame limiter). If I play a map with heavy storyboarding (Like your Okami map), the fps drops to a unplayable 25fps, making it ridiculously impossible to even MOVE the cursor.

My computer isn't really old, only 3 years actually. Even when I had a better OS (XP) I had a lot of lags SB-related.

So yeah, the problem with me isn't "you can't remove the SB anymore", it's "you can't remove the SB anymore and fuck you if you have a shitty computer". Here in my country (at least where I live), "good" computers are ridiculously expensive, costing around US$3500.
NotShinta
1,021 posts
Joined September 2009
NotShinta
Yeah, I hate how people won't appreciate something that took effort and is actually pretty good (e.g. Jarto) and are like LOLDELETE.

On the other hand, if a storyboard somehow stops you from playing, something's not right. I would support deleting SBs in this case, but the above irks me too much so no.

But out of curiosity, how will modders be able to check the folders like they can now with osz2 for something important? Or the mapper themselves if something explodes?
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN

Galkan92 wrote:

ShaggoN wrote:

But if main change is include SB in file and make ppl not able to remove it and put back when they want then... NO! I don't want to see osz2, i'm scared of it.
Don't delete every SB you see (because it's just SB) until it annoys you to the point you can't play. Just stay neutral and try to play with it.
Who said i'm deleting every SB? o_O

Guy-kun wrote:

Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway
In most of my cases, i'm removing these things to have fun with map, which annoys me with sb, and it's awesome without sb. In specific cases when i want to get a good score play. I put SB back, to have fun with it in next plays (if i like this SB of course :| ).
Last edited by ShaggoN , edited 1 time in total.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

0_o wrote:

Would it be possible to make it so that storyboard objects that are epilepsy threats could be flagged as such in the osb, then have a toggle to remove epilepsy-inducing storyboard elements?
Came here to make this post pretty much. There should be ability to disable SB elements when there is a legitimate health concern. However, being able to see past "distracting" storyboards and play the map well regardless is a skill, just like any other aspect of playing the game. Besides, sometimes storyboards can add something gameplay-wise to a map. (see maps like NB Rangers: Returns or Disturbia) It'd be really lame to delete SB from maps like that but I'm sure there are people who would... it'd be nice as a mapper to be able to make maps like that knowing that the SB I added won't be deleted.

A question about osz2: how would modding work? Would SB and whatnot be freely editable to modders while the map is unranked? Say someone were to delete SB elements while the map was pending, and then the map got ranked. Would they have a limited edition version of the map without SB elements in it? :P

edit: I guess my last paragraph kind of repeats what NotShinta said a couple posts up... still curious though!
K2J
872 posts
Here since the beginning
K2J
I really can't make a final comment until I know the osz2 specs. All I've heard are comments by staff, there doesn't appear to be an actual list/description of what osz2 will do, except that it will apparently fix all sorts of problems at the cost of the system being proprietary, not a regular ZIP archive.

That being said, I would agree that storyboards are part of the map, and should not be able to be removed. There are enough hoops to jump through by the ranking process to prevent storyboard distraction and lack of epilepsy warnings. The newly implemented SB Load should help reduce the problems for older machines, which I am quite sympathetic to. After all of these efforts, it would be a great shame if the effort was thrown away as something extraneous.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,850 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY

Guy-kun wrote:

Go somewhere else (like stepmania) if you want elitist opportunities, osu! is more about the community and not throwing away mappers' efforts because you want to be 'the very best'

Guy-kun wrote:

Elitism really,
the whole 'I'm so serious I'm going to remove the skin to get a higher score'
In my opinion anyway

Responsing to the above two claims:


KRZY wrote:

Well, I believe it is a preference matter. Some people, like myself, really likes to play with a black background and simple-toned notes because we simply don't like flashy and decorative stuff. This preference, imo, should be respected and not just ignored by people saying "deal with it." Understand that there are people who have different tastes than yours. Think of it on the same terms as people designing and using custom skins to play.
There is more to this than just wanting a higher score.

Also, changed the discussion topic so that it includes skin elements as well as SB elements also since some posts convinced me to think that skin elements as well as SB elements can be a problem.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
This is somehow one thing I am totally in agreement with. Though personally some of my maps just don't look right without the SB, it would be on the option of the player to delete them anyway... that doesn't mean everyone else will delete them. If everyone else did, then the SB is just probably that fugly.

Though if we take into skins into account... meh, I'll be more on the delete-able side of things. Unlike SB, the skin elements actually directly affect gameplay.
mekadon_old
mekadon_old
Some SB's cause major lags on some PC's, especially those which have a video-like storyboards like Neko Miko Reimu or Don't Stop Me Now or whatsoever. Even my PC can run at 60fps (VSync) with those SBs with me having a single-core processor and a mere 1GB RAM and an IDE hard drive I still can play it well. (Note even my PC can only use OpenGL)

I don't see any problem with SBs though I have a mild epilepsy, which doesn't cause much problem with me even when playing StrangeProgram or Ritsuen; which I might conclude as a challenge rather than a restriction, though I might have a mild headache after playing them.

Skins however, like what Zekira said, slightly affects gameplay. HP bars, hitcircles, cursors, etc. might change the mood of gameplay on a certain map. e.g. if a map's skin is so goddamn horrible you don't have the will to play the map at all. However, that depends on a specific player as each has different taste on certain things.

IMO the only thing I think is okay to delete in a map is the skin elements. For SBs? I go for 50% of it, since I'm very confident that some people's PC specs are far worse than me.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
GUISE I WANT BIGGAR NOTES I CANT SEE/CLICK NOTES

AND SMALLER HP BAR ITS DISTRACTING

I WANT AUTOAIM TOO PLAYING WITH SHIT MOUSE IS HARD

WAIT THATS THEIR ALREADY RANKED IT PLEASE


Quick steps to not looking like a total idiot:
  1. Ensure you meet reasonable system requirements and have reasonable settings set in osu! and your environment which do not, by themselves, detriment gameplay.
  2. Report maps which cause problems.
  3. Don't post in this thread.
LaCreme
54 posts
Joined August 2010
LaCreme
What about maximum fps regulation for SBs
and minimum contrast ratio for skins.

Some SBs have glowing/flashing effects at a relatively high fps that are really bad for our eyes and can cause lags.
Also, skins that have have almost minimal contrast from the background, I find ridiculous.
Anyways, I would definitely opt for an option to delete skins/sbs at my leisure.
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya
My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
We already have restrictions of SB load to ensure performance isn't affected by storyboards (if you find a map that runs very badly please report it so we can take action). Also I'm not reading this discussion, just saying :).
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

LaCreme wrote:

What about maximum fps regulation for SBs
and minimum contrast ratio for skins.

Some SBs have glowing/flashing effects at a relatively high fps that are really bad for our eyes and can cause lags.
Also, skins that have have almost minimal contrast from the background, I find ridiculous.
Anyways, I would definitely opt for an option to delete skins/sbs at my leisure.
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158

[Takuya] wrote:

My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158

peppy wrote:

Also I'm not reading this discussion, just saying :).
No one is, or they'd realize what they're saying has been said years ago.

Also, read #--
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk
May I suggest something which would make ALL mappers happy, and even some players much happier...

A few options could be added to the editor which could be ticked by a mapper, which would grant permission for a player to disable certain elements from a map during gameplay?

Such as:

1) Flashing/Strobing lights
2) Kaia time
3) Storyboard
etc...

Then a player selects these options in the song selection menu screen for enabling/disabling these features for the maps that support it. This way, mappers can then decide on what is more important to them when releasing a map...

1) Have their map played by everyone, due to allowing individual game elements to be disabled during the game.
2) Have their map played only as they intended it to be played, which would mean having their map being played by less people and would be less popular (playcount wise, not quality wise) due to this reason.

:)
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN
Would be great hmm.
But i sware i'll drink whole bottle of vodka in one shot if it comes in. XD
EvianBubble
339 posts
Joined October 2009
EvianBubble

Gabi wrote:

The thing i don't understand is, why would disabling a skin/SB bother anyone but yourself? If i remove the skin/SB of a map i don't like, no one else will be affected in anyway. All of you will still have your SB/Skin elements in your folders, so why should you put this restriction on us?
I support this. As both a player and a mapper I understand why you might want to disable SB. I've made a SB before and I know how much effort goes into it, but quite honestly if someone didn't want to use it, why force them? There's really no point and it'd just end up with a lot of unhappy people. I've skinned songs too, so I say the same thing about skinning - if you don't want to use skin elements, I think they should be delete - able

adamskii_uk wrote:

May I suggest something which would make ALL mappers happy, and even some players much happier...

A few options could be added to the editor which could be ticked by a mapper, which would grant permission for a player to disable certain elements from a map during gameplay?

Such as:

1) Flashing/Strobing lights
2) Kaia time
3) Storyboard
etc...

Then a player selects these options in the song selection menu screen for enabling/disabling these features for the maps that support it. This way, mappers can then decide on what is more important to them when releasing a map...

1) Have their map played by everyone, due to allowing individual game elements to be disabled during the game.
2) Have their map played only as they intended it to be played, which would mean having their map being played by less people and would be less popular (playcount wise, not quality wise) due to this reason.

:)
+1 support (though I doubt this would be implemented)

... Anyway. Just my thoughts on this :P
rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

[Takuya] wrote:

My only way to have a fluid gameplay is to toggle low-end pc, set 60fps(vsync) and keep the game at 640x480 (800x600 is still decently playable but I can notice the difference).At very least, I can use directX (OpenGL makes me barely able to complete spinners,it just slows down like fuck).Still, SB slow me down.When I find a SB I usually remove it, and leave the background wallpaper unless it's too colorful and makes me hardly see beats.Still, I don't remove simple stuff like vanishing text like "beatmap by dkfjghfkdjhg" as long it doesn't really bother me anyhow.
(My computer is from 2006, 1gb ram (extended from 512mb), ~2.0 GHz)
About skins, I don't really remove them unless they SUCK BADLY or are totally unplayable (First example in my mind: Honey by vocaloids).
However, I'm for NO at osz2 OR yes with noSB/skin mods.
There is something wrong with your computer, my old computer was from 2000, had 512 RAM, and a 1GHz processor. It ran DSMN with almost no problem even in full screen without Low-end PC checked. You may just need to reformat (Which I did to my old computer and it helped a lot) or your video card may not be up to par for the game.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
You have both missed the most important part of your PC specs: the graphics card. This decides whether osu! will run or not, as the biggest pull osu! has is on fill rate. Integrated graphics cards generally can't draw too many pixels to the screen per frame.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

peppy wrote:

.
Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
That thing about skins is so true... I can't really stand playing some maps because they got a skin which just gets in the way (like you don't even notice if you hit a 300/100/50/missed, or you get an huge 300), thanks god some maps just try to load the skin and, if you don't have it, then you go with the default one (like many Touhou maps).
Natteke
6,540 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

TKiller wrote:

Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
This.
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun
Shut up everyone :l
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old

Guy-kun wrote:

Shut up everyone :l
How about no.

TKiller wrote:

Storyboards are one thing, but I bet a lot of people would like to hear your very final answer for custom skins.

Take me for example. I'm using a custom skin for a sole reason of "standart hit300/100/50 are too huge". Seriously, they get in your way pretty often, especially when you're playing hidden. So why would I want to lose an opportunity to use my own skin for every map?

I appreciate when mappers make their own skins which match the map. But even if I like them, if they get in my way when playing, I delete them and redownload when I'm sure that I'm done with the map.
Pretty much this. And custom skinned hits in Taiko piss me off, even when I have taiko forced [I haven't played the newest osu! build so don't yell at me if this has been changed.]

As far as SB's go: I like looking at storyboards, but pretty much any of them that have flashes, strobes, etc., are extremely distracting. No, i'm not bitching because they lag my PC [yeah, I can play on a netbook just fine so people bitching about SB lag should probably stop], or I want a really high score, but some of them are just over-the-top.

And why didn't anybody mention this SB? My eyes are burning. I can appreciate when people take creative liberties, but what the hell. Seriously?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

E-Hooker wrote:

Guy-kun wrote:

Shut up everyone :l
How about no.
How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old

Guy-kun wrote:

E-Hooker wrote:

How about no.
How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Just because it's useless, doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
If you think it's useless, then don't post, yeah?
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun

E-Hooker wrote:

Guy-kun wrote:

How about it.


This argument or discussion is useless, we know nothing will change.
Just because it's useless, doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
If you think it's useless, then don't post, yeah?
It's my opinion that it's useless to try, stop denying me of my opinion.
This is for discussion.
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old
Then really, stop being so negative, because then you're "denying people of their opinion" as well.
maay
410 posts
Joined September 2009
maay
yes im agre
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
Actually I'm switching a bit now...

I'm more on the untouchable SB elements[/s] side now,

but if possible, [b]a toggle to force own skin when playing please. I have never actually used any custom skins from maps; just delete them and use either the default skin, Okami skin, or Taiko skin. I many of the skins in the maps to be well-made and I can't say anything negative much about them, but the fact remains that it hinders my gameplay.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Read #3: viewtopic.php?p=610158#p610158
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya

peppy wrote:

You have both missed the most important part of your PC specs: the graphics card. This decides whether osu! will run or not, as the biggest pull osu! has is on fill rate. Integrated graphics cards generally can't draw too many pixels to the screen per frame.
My crappy one
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,850 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
KRZY
Guy-kun and strager, you greatly amuse me by trying to deny people the right to post in this thread, thanks, but please do figure out the fact that you have no power whatsoever to do so, and by trying you merely look comical.

Some good points raised in this thread, it's a pity ppy already seems to have made up his mind. There will be additional discussions on this once osz2 is actually implemented I'm sure.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

KRZY wrote:

Some good points raised in this thread
Which have been discussed a long time ago.

KRZY wrote:

it's a pity ppy already seems to have made up his mind.
Because of the discussions a long time ago, and his own objectives and his vision for osu!.

KRZY wrote:

There will be additional discussions on this once osz2 is actually implemented I'm sure.
Which will probably be as stupid as this thread.

You have to realize that you're not discussing anything important. You're making yourselves look pretty stupid, for the most part. (There are exceptions, but there are always exceptions.) If you don't post here, you can avoid that and save some time.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Sometimes I like you, strager.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

peppy wrote:

Sometimes I like you, strager.
Sometimes I like you too, peppy.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
This should be locked on this positive note.
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk

strager wrote:

KRZY wrote:

it's a pity ppy already seems to have made up his mind.
Because of the discussions a long time ago, and his own objectives and his vision for osu!.
I think it would be useful for users on this forum, if peppy (or a MOD) would take the time to create a sticky thread containing a list of things that have been discussed many times before for osu! that have been rejected, due to peppy's vision for osu!. This would then prevent alot of time wasting and frustration for users on this forum.

Here are two things that should be added to the list, when osz2 is released:

1) No threads requesting for a practice mode (I wasted many hours/days of my life trying to convice peppy that we needed it) that enables users to go directly to any part of a song, to practice difficult to read sections. I know that we can currently do this in the editor, but we will all lose the ability do to this once osz2 is released.
2) No threads asking for the disabling of storyboards and skins with osz2 maps. Since this has apparently already been mentioned many times before, and has been rejected many times.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

adamskii_uk wrote:

I think it would be useful for users on this forum, if peppy (or a MOD) would take the time to create a sticky thread containing a list of things that have been discussed many times before for osu! that have been rejected, due to peppy's vision for osu!. This would then prevent alot of time wasting and frustration for users on this forum.
Okay, and what will people do with this list? They'll either ignore it, or they'll look for their own opinion/suggestion in the list. In other words, they'll search it.

You can do that now.
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old
Pessimism, ho!
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk

strager wrote:

adamskii_uk wrote:

I think it would be useful for users on this forum, if peppy (or a MOD) would take the time to create a sticky thread containing a list of things that have been discussed many times before for osu! that have been rejected, due to peppy's vision for osu!. This would then prevent alot of time wasting and frustration for users on this forum.
Okay, and what will people do with this list? They'll either ignore it, or they'll look for their own opinion/suggestion in the list. In other words, they'll search it.

You can do that now.
The problem with the search feature is that you have to type the EXACT words that were used in the thread, for it to find the thread. Sometimes this can make the threads difficult to find, such as searching for "practice" instead of "rehearse", since I called the thread requesting for a practice mode in osu! "Rehearse MOD", and not "Practice MOD".

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2950&hilit=rehearse

Also, the search feature can sometimes bring up results of over a few hundred posts to search through, if the words are used many times throughout the forum. For example, I searched for the word "practice" and 61 pages of results appeared for it. So the search feature which can be useful at times, isn't always a quick and easy solution to the problem. So I think a sticky thread in this section of the forum would be much more appropriate for informing users on here what features definately wont be added to osu!, no matter how much people try to convince peppy that it's needed.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

adamskii_uk wrote:

I suck at searching.
Yes you do.
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk

strager wrote:

adamskii_uk wrote:

I suck at searching.
Yes you do.
No I don't suck at searching. However, you DO suck at not insulting people on here, since almost every one of you posts in this thread has been negative towards forum users who post in here.

I was merely providing an example of what results other users MAY get when searching for the word "practice", instead of "rehearse". After all, if I hadn't included the word "mod" in my example (ie. practice mod), then you would have come up with 61 pages worth of results like what I did, when searching just for the word "practice".

EDIT: And yes, I know that the "rehearse MOD" thread appeared your search results list when searching for "practice mod", but only because the word "practice" was mentioned in the thread also. Also, it wouldn't have been so easy to find that thread when searching for just "practice" though, since it's an old thread (2+ years) and would have been many pages into the search results.
Last edited by adamskii_uk , edited 1 time in total.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

adamskii_uk wrote:

No I don't suck at searching. However, you DO suck at not insulting people on here, since almost every one of you posts in this thread has been negative towards forum users who post in here.
I'm not complaining about insulting people. You are complaining about people getting the information they want.

adamskii_uk wrote:

I was merely providing an example of what results other users MAY get when searching for the word "practice", instead of "rehearse". After all, if I hadn't included the word "mod" in my example (ie. practice mod), then you would have come up with 61 pages worth of results like what I did, when searching just for the word "practice".
So what? Who is going to search just "practice"? "I need a feature which lets me practice." You don't need a fucking feature for that. What you do want is a practice mode or mod or an unranked mode.

If you're going to bring in examples, be reasonable with them.
adamskii_uk
324 posts
Joined April 2008
adamskii_uk

strager wrote:

adamskii_uk wrote:

I was merely providing an example of what results other users MAY get when searching for the word "practice", instead of "rehearse". After all, if I hadn't included the word "mod" in my example (ie. practice mod), then you would have come up with 61 pages worth of results like what I did, when searching just for the word "practice".
So what? Who is going to search just "practice"? "I need a feature which lets me practice." You don't need a fucking feature for that. What you do want is a practice mode or mod or an unranked mode.

If you're going to bring in examples, be reasonable with them.
We are getting completely offtopic now. This is the last post I'm going to make in this thread, since I don't want to waste any more of my life with this, since I've got better things to do.

I admit, I could have probably come up with a better example, but the whole point I was trying to make is that the search feature only works if you search for the correct word(s), which doesn't always happen. Also, even if you do search for the correct word, or phrase, it could still bring up 60+ pages of results to search and read through. I think most people, including myself, don't want to waste time going through 60+ pages of results to see if something has been discussed already and rejected, when it would be much quicker and easier to have a sticky thread that is easily accessible to everyone on the forum.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
So you'd rather have peppy waste his time.

And I wasn't getting off topic at all. You were saying that discussion points were not summarized in a way where people can easily access already-beaten-to-death topics regarding OSZ2. I was saying there's a search feature for that if you have an idea, and a place for discussing new topics if it doesn't come up in a search.

If you're going to present a well-balanced argument, I would expect you to search all 61 pages or (more reasonably) come up with better search terms. Usually, if you don't have good search terms, you don't know what you're talking about anyway.
Guy-kun
770 posts
Joined December 2009
Guy-kun
I'm posting in an epic thread.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
I usually don't tl;dr threads, but wow...

Looks like everything has been said, so now we're just "going in circles". ;)
James2250
osu! Alumni
4,059 posts
Joined July 2008
James2250
k I read about half of this pages argument before I got bored

Can we lock this now?
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
Yeah, you can complain about this if and when it happens, in the meantime you might as well just not think about it.
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