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[Guideline to Rule] End at the same time spot

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21
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Stefan

Rule wrote:

Your difficulties should all end at the same spot. Having a fully-mapped Normal/Hard and a half-mapped Easy just looks sloppy/lazy. A full Easy may look boring to you, but not to a player that can't handle the harder difficulties.
It's actually a more relevant point since it still leaves people the "freedom" to end their maps 10-20 seconds before which is pure nonsense and not more than a poor excuse for their idleness to finish their work. Move this as an valid rule so things like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/714001&m=0 cannot happen in the future.

Just make a short correction into this:

Rule wrote:

All difficulties should end at the same spot. Having a fully-mapped Normal/Hard and a half-mapped Easy just looks sloppy/lazy. A full Easy may look boring to you, but not to a player that can't handle the harder difficulties.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
How would GDs factor into this? I could understand it being a rule for the same person mapping all the difficulties, but what if another mapper feels certain parts should be left unmapped?
Sonnyc
7,761 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
idk is that a problem?
For that mapset, there were multiple creators who participated the map, and there could be several interpretations towards the song.

Discouraging people from making lazy half normal (which happened during 2010 i guess) seems the original purpose of that guideline.
If all mappers are mapping through the end, I don't see a reason to force all mappers end at "exactly" the same spot.

Opposite to this proposal.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Stefan

Mahogany wrote:

How would GDs factor into this? I could understand it being a rule for the same person mapping all the difficulties, but what if another mapper feels certain parts should be left unmapped?
could you provide examples when it's senseful? I am not talking about the same Drain Time lenght btw.

Even tho I would also support to have a consistent Drain Time (as far as possible) but it's rather unlikely happening than the same end spot in all difficulties.

Sonnyc wrote:

If all mappers are mapping through the end, I don't see a reason to force all mappers end at "exactly" the same spot.
Neither I see the reason behind dropping noticeable seconds in a difficulty while others are consistent.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I can't bring to mind any examples of GDs ending at different times (Besides the map linked in the OP) but I do have at least one example of a song having breaks in different locations: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/242549

Aspiration diff has a break during the intro while Hula's Super Insane does not. However, it makes perfect sense in the map while you're playing it, and I think it added to the map's quality and uniqueness. While I don't have any examples of different starting and ending times, I don't think there's really a difference between allowing different break times and different ending times, as the end result on the drain time will remain the same, assuming all other factors are equal.

I personally believe this guideline is fine as a guideline and does not need to be changed to a rule.
Sonnyc
7,761 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc

Stefan wrote:

Sonnyc wrote:

If all mappers are mapping through the end, I don't see a reason to force all mappers end at "exactly" the same spot.
Neither I see the reason behind dropping noticeable seconds in a difficulty while others are consistent.
Then wouldn't being lenient for the mapper's selection be the optimal consensus?

The current guideline leads mapper to end at the same spot.
If there is a difference between difficulties, this could be discussed during the modding progress not as a fixed rule.
If having an inconsistent ending is silly in your point, there must be a reason inside the music itself, apart from bringing a rule.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Stefan

Sonnyc wrote:

If having an inconsistent ending is silly in your point, there must be a reason inside the music itself, apart from bringing a rule.
I have zero idea what's the meaning behind this line, like literally.

Mahogany wrote:

I can't bring to mind any examples of GDs ending at different times (Besides the map linked in the OP) but I do have at least one example of a song having breaks in different locations: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/242549
This isn't the same like the example above. Talking about the end spot and not the Drain Time of each difficulty.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
In what way is it truly different though? In both cases it's a part of the song the player may or may not have to play. If it's acceptable to have breaks in different locations I don't see why it would be unacceptable to have endings in different locations, within reason.

Like let's say there's a song that's 1 minute long, and a beatmap of the song with a drain time of 55 seconds. Should it matter whether the 5 seconds that aren't being played are at the middle of the song, or at the end? I personally don't believe it matters.

Unless you also believe that breaks should also have to be in the same place, wherein I'd have to flatly disagree with you.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Topic Starter
Stefan
It is doubtful if you cannot even map a single minute properly and have either to add breaks or just leave like 5-10 seconds out which easily can be mapped. In the said example there is no point to not map the rest to be consistent with the rest.
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah
I don't see the point to enforce it like that because finish a map with a spinner or a note is most of time totally possible to justify and will +/- be against this rule.

So yes there is dumb cases but well the map quoted is most likely just a bunch of dumb things =)
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Well, that really depends on the song. The song doesn't have to be just one minute, I had only used that for the sake of an example.

What if the song was near-silent during that part, and there was nothing to suggest a spinner? I believe it would be better to just leave it unmapped in that sake, as a break would be more fitting than notes mapped to near-silence. Meanwhile, there could be an outro that is mappable, but is very calm and slow and the mapper would rather their map ended at the previous climax to add more "oomph" to the ending, which could make the map much more exciting to finish.

I also believe the break in the example I provided added immensely to the map, giving a moment of tension and anticipation that made the following streams incredibly exciting to play.

That's why I believe this is a very case-by-case basis and should remain as it is right now. I think there are many cases where this guideline can be safely ignored, and that it would be a poor decision to change it to a rule, because I believe any particularly egregious examples should be caught out during the modding process, while those that make sense can be allowed through.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Many people said or will say that it could be annoying for GD mappers to end their difficulty at the same spot.
If there are like 5 GD mappers, everyone should agree on ending a difficulty at only 1 spot. But awh well, i guess this won't be really annoying for everyone.

But imo, this should just be a guideline. If you want this as Rule. So why don't to do the same thing for kiai which must be consistent ?
I think it's the same thing...
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Just as possibilities, but you might have a long spinner at the end of an extra difficulty, but might opt to use a shorter spinner in easy because it's less taxing for newer players.

There might also be an outro where the bpm slows down/fluctuates a lot, which would be okay for higher difficulties, but might not be suitable to map and be played intuitively for lower difficulties.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
basically what cxu said https://osu.ppy.sh/b/688382 wouldn't be possible that way and that's sad.

opposing.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
tbh, the map you used as an example seems more like one of those "not-serious" maps because 1) the original song is 4mins long. 2) the song was trimmed to an mp3 1:32 with pretty much 10s of fade out time. 3) It also has other issues with it (i'm not even sure why some of that was allowed to slide)

ANYWAY,

pretty much what cxu said, and the guideline that is in place isn't really meant for what you want use it for.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Gonna leave my own map as an example of why this shouldn't be a rule.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/148034

While this is one of those edge cases, rules need to be followed to the letter, making edge cases like this impossible to be rankable.
Easy diffs are meant to introduce the game to a new player, a new player just cannot focus for 5 minutes, hell even I can't focus for 5 mins nowadays. :D

Also, does anyone remember Armin's marathon?
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I don't see the point - the rule is mainly there for those old extreme examples as stated by Sonnyc.

As others have said, in the case of guest difficulties, there are different interpretations of when the optimal beginning and end point should be. Setting a hard line for this sort of thing isn't acceptable to me.

A few examples that I have been involved in:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/449122
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/722159
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44895
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/356727
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/320127
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/60636

I'd prefer to leave it as it is and leave all difficulties done by the same mapper to start and end in the same place. Having guest difficulties remain at least similar in length without obvious vicious truncation isn't taking away from the set nor is it taking away from the experience of the song itself at the difficulty level that the mapper is expressing.
Krfawy
1,374 posts
Joined March 2012
Krfawy
Yes Stefan, this is an absolute nonsense to not map 4-second 1/64 stream in Easy difficulty with a spinner that provides no bonus points, it is a nonsense. *jk*

Sometimes we have to avoid mapping too complicated rhythms and that's one of many reasons we do not map endings of some songs in every difficulty - because it would be too hardcore and spooky and just using other notes would be too damn inappropriate.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

Rule wrote:

Your difficulties should all end at the same spot. Having a fully-mapped Normal/Hard and a half-mapped Easy just looks sloppy/lazy. A full Easy may look boring to you, but not to a player that can't handle the harder difficulties.
I didn't even know this was a hard rule lol. It's already been broken enough times to be considered more of a guideline than a rule anyways :P. If you dislike the way No title was treated, comment there and start a discussion about the Lemur diff. It's in a qualified state for the purpose of discussion no? I think changing a rule should require more than just a single example of an edge case.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

monstrata wrote:

Rule wrote:

Your difficulties should all end at the same spot. Having a fully-mapped Normal/Hard and a half-mapped Easy just looks sloppy/lazy. A full Easy may look boring to you, but not to a player that can't handle the harder difficulties.
I didn't even know this was a hard rule lol. It's already been broken enough times to be considered more of a guideline than a rule anyways :P. If you dislike the way No title was treated, comment there and start a discussion about the Lemur diff. It's in a qualified state for the purpose of discussion no? I think changing a rule should require more than just a single example of an edge case.
It's a guideline, and Stefan proposed it to be a rule.

Getting to the topic, I'm against this change. There are some valid reasons a single mapper might end his/her difficulties at different times, and most of them have been stated through the topic. If there's an abuse because of this not being a rule but a guideline, it should (and in most cases would) be pointed out at some point in the ranking process (either on mods or through a DQ).
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
This clearly needs to stay as a Guideline as there are valid exceptions.
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