Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Development
  4. Feature Requests
  5. Completed Requests

[invalid] Hidden sliders

posted
Total Posts
91
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +443
Haxwell
5 posts
Joined July 2012
Topic Starter
Haxwell
Hello lads,

I assume most of you are aware of this new feature added with sliders fading out when playing with Hidden and how they are fading out, this have lead to a lot of opinions (both negative and positive) and personally since I do go for #1 scores on maps using both Hidden and Flashlight it unfortunately had a negative effect which multiple #1 farmers seem to have agreed with, hence the initiative to create this thread.

A concern or what some people might consider a concern in this case is that Hidden got harder to read with these sliders fading out and even if I support this feature to exist in the game since I see why some people would like it, I do not believe it should have been implemented into the core game mechanics and forced upon everyone since this creates some issues.

The biggest issue in my opinion is with Hidden together with Flashlight which got a lot harder to play where you have to beat scores done with the old sliders which did not fade out this way which means that even if some #1's that I personally have would become harder to defeat, this is still really unfair since it from here on takes a lot more effort to achieve the same score than it did previously (when it comes to memorizing stuff and similar such as reading).

I also believe that only because some people like to modify their sliders (everything from removing sliderends to the followcircle) doesn't make it a good thing to force a change like this within the core game mechanics upon everyone since it negatively affects the gameplay for everyone who likes to play hidden together with flashlight (even if this is a minority of all the players, it's still something that is really having a negative effect).

I do believe that this feature would have been good if it was added when Osu! was released in the beginning but changing a thing like this 8 years later feels kind of awkward and just weird since this will mix up scores done both done with old sliders which faded out differently and the newer sliders fading out like this (I wouldn't bring this point up if there was an option to toggle this, read more about this later in the post).

Even if I believe that changes can be a good thing, I would say that changes should be prioritized on stuff that isn't working properly (not going to fire any shots in this thread since this thread is about doing something regarding the new hidden sliders) and not focusing on changing stuff that actually works just fine.

A few suggestions how to resolve this/apply improvements to this :

- Add an option where you could choose from different ways of the sliders to fade out (old way or new way), this would lead to everyone having the option to choose how they would prefer their sliders to fade out.

- Ignore this change and keep it the way it was before with you being able to edit files inside of your skin to fade out sliderends and similar, this would mean that even if this change with the sliders doesn't exist any longer you would still try to beat previous scores done with hidden using the same conditions as those players used to achieve these scores in the first place.

- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion).

- Wait with applying this change to sliders fading out until Osu!next and then add multiple options when it comes to skinning your sliders (together with other options) where you can apply changes such as choosing not to use this new fading and using the old sliders together with other options with sliders.

- Make these new fading out sliders an cosmetic mod (similar to what Nightcore is to DoubleTime) and make it Hidden v2 which means that you could select it if you double-tap the Hidden mod-icon in the mod selections. Example : HD+HR=1,12x score multiplier and HDv2+HR=1,12x score multiplier.

Lets keep the discussion civilized and hopefully one or more of these suggested changes can and will be applied in order to make improvements.

Thanks for reading!
Haxwell
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
t/1640
Read #8?
Starious
11 posts
Joined December 2013
Starious
I agree!
Fey
10 posts
Joined April 2014
Fey
Definitely support this...

Baraatje123 wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/1640
Read #8?
He isn't requesting a disable, he is requesting an elaborate toggle function to let us enjoy HDFL at the same level as it was before.
Pinkie Pi
Pinkie Pi
Haxwell suggested it as one of multiple possible solutions and the feature request itself is not about adding an option, but to make changes to how sliders fade out right now when playing with Hidden and Flashlight.

personally, i would like to see the upgraded hidden option.

you can have the old hidden like normal with non fading sliders, but the extra hidden could be more challenging, just not more rewarding. keep it the 0.06 extra score multiplier (otherwise a lot of old scores become completely destroyed).

at least people have a choice then. isn't that best for everyone? giving the users the best personal experience they enjoy, while not harming anyone or forcing people to adapt to new changes.


i personally hate the fading sliders due to the interaction with flashlight. without flashlight it's not a major deal (though, it's still an unnecessary change tbh...), but with flashlight it's a lot harder to memorize and learn maps at the pace i had. i'm sure other people share my opinion and have experienced the same.
Josepher
7 posts
Joined August 2013
Josepher
For me personally this new feature could either make me stop playing completely or at least not competitively at all anymore. My favorite thing to do is to play high ar and get nice scores, but earlier after I updated I went to play a map I ss'd and failed instantly, but enough about how much I suck.

"you can have the old hidden like normal with non fading sliders, but the extra hidden could be more challenging, just not more rewarding. keep it the 0.06 extra score multiplier (otherwise a lot of old scores become completely destroyed)."

I would support this as well because it reminds me a bit of sudden death and perfect mod. In a sense. dont hate me
aefrogdog
8 posts
Joined March 2014
aefrogdog
As someone who plays a lot of FL, I really hate this new hidden feature. The Hidden V2 sounds like a great idea. It's easy to turn it on and off whether or not you feel like using it.
Jatie
81 posts
Joined July 2014
Jatie
Yes, at least make it toggleable. HDFL is such a pain in the ass now. Most FL players are using stable (fallback) because it doesn't have this feature, and I suggest anyone who doesn't want these sliders to use it too.

I personally would vote to take it out all together. Part of the difficulty of HD was to see those notes under the sliders. This change is for people who want an easy way to play HD instead of actually going out of their way to learn it.

Make the game customisable for fucks sake and stop being such a stubborn ass about things peppy.

Stop implementing useless features and fix things that need fixing.
Cayman
29 posts
Joined October 2013
Cayman
Once stable fallback is gone and we can't escape this hidden slider update and all 4mod players will crawl up in a ball and die
Ps: this is way worse then the first hidden note having a hit circle update :(

Edit: Add toggle option and problem solved :D
Last edited by Cayman , edited 2 times in total.
Pinkie Pi
Pinkie Pi

Cayman wrote:

Once stable fallback is gone and we can't escape this hidden slider update and all FL players will crawl up in a ball and die
Ps: this is way worse then the first hidden note having a hit circle update :(

the nice thing about the first hidden note is THAT THERE IS AN OPTION WHETHER YOU WANT IT OR NOT.... WOW!!!! did whoever was reponsible for hidden sliders not consider just giving people the option to have it or not? it's pretty fucking simple and wouldn't annoy a good portion of the community.
Fatfan Kolek
590 posts
Joined January 2013
Fatfan Kolek
A toggle option when flashlight is active would probably the most human thing to us
Silentbob
2 posts
Joined January 2015
Silentbob
I think a toggle option would be the best option for this dilemma.
A Mystery
868 posts
Joined April 2013
A Mystery

Fatfan Kolek wrote:

A toggle option when flashlight is active would probably the most human thing to us
While I never play flashlight, this seems like a good solution if it's really annoying. As for HD without FL: that's perfectly playable and should stay unchanged
Accurian
103 posts
Joined May 2014
Accurian
Hidden sliders seem to be a great addition to competitive play, making HD picks for tournaments a lot more interesting, but forcing it upon everyone who doesn't just play HD or HRHD such as players who use DTHRFL or DTHRHDFL is detrimental. Making it an option locally would cause unfairness in competitions, so turning it into a multiplayer only modification would be more suitable, instead of changing HD all together. It's a two edge sword, since hidden notes behind sliders are now visible, which is a game-changing update, which means people in the future would either have an advantage over people who used to play older beatmaps with hidden notes behind sliders, and vice versa with those hidden sliders.

Edit: Actually, negating the hidden sliders effect when FL is turned on would ACTUALLY be a viable option. Please consider this, peppy!
BeMoNcHiK
3 posts
Joined April 2012
BeMoNcHiK
Bye HDFL mode...
FrzR
2,237 posts
Joined October 2012
FrzR
Well that's hidden mod for you. imo, we haven't adjusted to the new hd mod yet so it'll take time before it becomes the norm.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
The main difficulty I have with the new hidden with flashlight isn't the fact that they fade out, but the fact that the slider start and slider end fade out before the slider track.
I like this new slider system (without FL) because it makes it so you don't require a special kind of skin for sightreading hidden, since it improves the ability to see what's under the sliders now that they fade out. However, when paired with flashlight, I feel like it's the total opposite, that you would need a special kind of skin to make the sliders more playable at over 200 combo. If the slider starts and slider ends didn't fade out, it personally wouldn't be a problem for me with flashlight since the start of the slider would be just as noticeable without some bright slider track color and vibrant slider outline. Also, call me old fashioned, but I think sliders look plain ugly and wrong without starts and ends; if I didn't want slider ends I would've skinned them off.

tl;dr make the slider start and slider end fade out with the slider pls
ShadowBolt
2 posts
Joined December 2013
ShadowBolt

BeMoNcHiK wrote:

Bye HDFL mode...
Bye Osu! You will not be missed :)
hent2222
396 posts
Joined April 2014
hent2222
I have old version (old sliders) and i don't have problems, but new sliders are very shitty. I agree...

HDFL now is very hard for new versions
Sua
1 post
Joined February 2014
Sua
i'm in favor of the second plan
helix
89 posts
Joined September 2013
helix
This change is extremely dumb if you want to use FL and HD at the same time. Toggle option when FL is enabled would be 101% better imo.
Wilken-nyan
10 posts
Joined August 2014
Wilken-nyan
Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is. Flashlight as a mod has been disregarded for the longest time and it'll probably be the same way in the future - bringing this up because the issue lies in fl+hd, while hd alone is fine. The great majority of players don't play fl at all and it's peppy's job to make the game appeal to said player base. This doesn't mean that i support this in any way though.

There are THOUSANDS of freakin' scores with hidden out there, which are easier done than those that will follow. While peppy tried not to change mods like hr and dt (there's really no way he could change any of the values like ar, od and what not, because that would result in unfair advantages for players that have plays on maps already, both in terms of pp and score). Now that's where the whole "BUT HR AND DT CHANGE HOW THE MAP PLAYS, WHILE HD AND FLASHLIGHT DON'T" argument comes into play, which both peppy and tom seem to have a very strong affinity towards.

EVERYONE that's played at least 5 minutes of flashlight knows that it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Just look at the pp values for some of the crazy fl plays out there, they ARE FUCKING LAUGHABLE. There's players out there that are fast and can do +dt or +hr 500pp sightreads all day, but could they poop out 200pp fl plays? PROBABLY NOT. The effort that goes into something like that is wayyyyyyyyy beyond what you actually get, resulting in a absolutely non-rewarding mod (pp-wise)(effort required for a score should be rewarded).

Now, not a whole lot of people play fl because of this, which is kinda sad in and by itself. This change will be stupid for spinner players, it will be stupid for easy/normal players, it will be stupid for crazy fl players like BluOxy etc.

With "ScoreV2" - jesus christ just thinking about this gives me aids - we have another plague to overcome. It might or might not get implemented into singleplayer and i don't want to go too deep into this, but FL only WILL NOT BE IN ANY LEADERBOARDS WHATSOEVER. HDHR overweight's it (by a lot actually), DT ALONE WILL OVERWEIGHT IT, let alone DTHD. With FLHD being waaaaaaay behind DTHD in score, you won't even get your sweet spots on the leaderboards anymore, playing FLHD will be ridiculously difficult, while being even less rewarding than previously. Like seriously who would still play that? YES, FL would be dead as fuck except on fullmod easy/normal diffs.

I'm getting more off topic by the minute, so I'm just gonna call a final bullshit on "fl pp is fine, just play those 8* maps and you'll see"... No that is not gonna happen anytime soon, so there's nothing to worry about or nobody to worry about who might be abusing it in any way. Tom obviously didn't play any flashlight in his life to be able to justify not buffing it in terms of pp.

So yeah, rant end. Some of this is megaaaaaa off topic, but my jimmies get rustled every time i see flashlight being mentioned. Peace.

Edit: Gonna vote this request up, once I'm able to. Just realized i repeated a lot stuff that's already been said, but i was too rustled to read all of it, and I'm too lazy to remove stuff at this point.

ALSO, if you have resources to put into stupid changes like this, how about we get a good anti-cheat-system already? Like seriously how come there's still hundreds of spin-hackers out there, that have been reported a thousand times???? LIKE HOW IN HELL IS THIS PIECE OF SHIT STILL ALIVE: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/6332647 ............................
[ Haruka ]_old_1
[ Haruka ]_old_1

Wilken-nyan wrote:

Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is.
This is the main reason i support this, but all this fl being underrated stuff is also correct. Take my star (in some hours).
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
Fey
10 posts
Joined April 2014
Fey

Baraatje123 wrote:

Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe

Fey wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.
#1s mean nothing.
worst fl player
worst fl player
#1s mean nothing.
I agree
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
Give it time, I'm sure you'll adapt

The update hasn't even been live for a week on stable, and personally as a non-fl player, I enjoy the new HD sliders
Piine
1,573 posts
Joined March 2012
Piine
iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno
Jatie
81 posts
Joined July 2014
Jatie

Baraatje123 wrote:

I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
Someone doesn't play HDFL...

Sightreading 100 combo with HDFL is nothing compared to the memorisation HDFL players pull off.

Plus, making Hidden easier isn't a positive thing. With that logic, remove the fact that FL grows every 100 combo until 200 combo, because it makes it easier for us.

It used to be a challenge to read the stacks under sliders.

But what would I know, I'm just some shitty player who farms #1s because I can exploit my arm muscles, right?

On a side note: I love it how all the spin players have all joined to chip in their opinion ;D
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe
If you are saying HDFL is memorization, why does it matter that the sliders fade if you memorize them anyway?
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
Kayla
259 posts
Joined August 2013
Kayla
I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.

HD is much better since the update. No more 'hidden notes'. Readability is great now. Sliders behave like a hit object as they always should have instead of behaving like an un-HD slider. I much prefer Hidden now that the change has gone through on CE. 10/10.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
^^
This
Just this
Wilken-nyan
10 posts
Joined August 2014
Wilken-nyan

Kayla wrote:

I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.
This is the most retarded thing I've read all week. If you have no experience with something AND NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER, then could you please just stay quiet. Like you don't even play FL and try to justify the hidden sliders.

There is reading going on with easy/normal and even hard/easier insane maps with FL. If you farm #1's for example, you will most likely NOT memorize the complete map, but maybe 1-2 really really really short parts. It's more about reacting than memorizing at that point. HD however takes all of this away.

Why in the hell should FL not have a multiplier? WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU COMMENTING ON SOMETHING PEOPLE LIKE WITH SUCH A OBVIOUSLY NEGATIVE BIAS? like you probably never played FL in your entire freakin' life, go into a thread and spread your not thought out little bullshitty opinion.

Same goes for the other smartass.

Let's say ar9+dt would be changed to ar11 instead of ar10.3! Would i go into a thread and say: "Well you know, it's a totally justified change. I mean i can comment on this because i almost got 10 seconds into a song with it!" NO I FUCKING WOULDN'T.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked
Wilken-nyan
10 posts
Joined August 2014
Wilken-nyan

Baraatje123 wrote:

Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked
Neither does anything you or that other guy said.

If Haxwell has a problem with any of what I'm saying, then I'll gladly delete it.
worst fl player
worst fl player
Yes why not destroy a mod and make another. 7 years after......and keep ALL the scores after


This is the case
Last edited by worst fl player , edited 1 time in total.
Kayla
259 posts
Joined August 2013
Kayla
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.

If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.

Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.

Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
The Emperor
286 posts
Joined September 2014
The Emperor
lol watch out for peppy with a baseball bat!
i do support option 3 tho

- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion).
dinopwn
193 posts
Joined June 2013
dinopwn

Kayla wrote:

I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?
HDFL can either be entirely memorized, or you can sightread some easy parts of it. Removing the readability of HDFL will make it harder for some, sometimes much harder, such as on [http://osu.ppy.sh/s/874 NicoVideo - Kona-Chan: Farucon Pan! (sm2164009)]. Once you play FL or HDFL a lot you will see how sometimes you can sightread maps on FL.

Kayla wrote:

I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.

Kayla wrote:

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
There are two ways to know how to click notes in the game: reading and memorization. I use both, even without flashlight. I can't read ar10 so I memorize the map, I sometimes memorize hidden, heck I sometimes memorize nomod. Reading and memorization both take skill, and just saying memorization is not part of osu! is not correct.

Kayla wrote:

If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
Making new scores easier to set is pretty bad already, now make new scores harder to set is even worse. Flashlight is a mod that will become dead in the future. This is what is happening to HDFL right now.

Kayla wrote:

Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
This is just an insult to people who try their best to get #1 scores. Go ahead and try getting a 4mod #1 score on a easy/normal map, it is much harder than you might think without practice. osu! is about having skill, and getting #1 scores is a skill. If spinning takes no skill, why do spinners exist in this game? Also remember the five digit players that try to play easy/normal maps with fullmod might not find it as easy as us.

Kayla wrote:

Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
Skill range varies among all players. Just because you can pass a song does not mean others can.
Also, some people like to see themselves be better at something than others. This is how human competition works.

Baraatje123 wrote:

If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
It would be much more convenient to just toggle on or off, as some skins are made for aesthetics rather than readability. Nowdays people like to use skins to improve their gameplay, but some don't. I use skins for both aesthetics and readability, and brightening the sliders will sacrifice aesthetics for readability. This is already the case in the newest version where peppy is trying to force sausage sliders down our throats. Some people just don't like the look of those sliders while others do.
Also, it's about the sliders that can't be read with the new hidden change that matters. If all sliders are readable using HDFL, then this thread won't exist.

To be honest, I like this change, but I am concerned about how peppy is trying to push flashlight players aside and say they don't really matter. It's like discrimination against minorities in real life. If flashlight players don't matter why did peppy include flashlight in this game in the first place?
Last edited by dinopwn , edited 3 times in total.
DevRT
18 posts
Joined December 2011
DevRT
Having a fair playing field for a game that is driven by competition is extremely important. So, I support this even though I rarely play HD and I never play HDFL.
xxdinorabbitxx
93 posts
Joined March 2015
xxdinorabbitxx
I do see why hidden shouldnt change via haxwell and therefore think it better not change, but if peppy change mod, then either must adjust or not play.
Timorisu
771 posts
Joined November 2012
Timorisu
My biggest gripe with the new Hidden is that it's still the same mod. Not implementing a Hidden2 á la Nightcore gives people who played on previous versions of osu! a rather huge advantage as the mod WAS easier before. You did not need to memorize as much stuff and reading sliders was much much easier.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.

And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.
Soweon
17 posts
Joined August 2014
Soweon
Oh boy am I glad someone made a request for this.
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.

And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).
SPOILER
Seriously... think about it... When you start the slider, you have no clue where the end is with Flashlight. No problem on sliders that go straight or in a curve or whatever, but when they are super long and in all sorts of shapes it becomes impossible.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Oh wait
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
Soweon
17 posts
Joined August 2014
Soweon

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory.
Trust me, it's not.
But with the new hidden it will be like that, and that is something I (+plenty of other people apparently) do not want.
worst fl player
worst fl player

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory
Oh offcourse its 99.9% memory.....

lilelf29
120 posts
Joined June 2013
lilelf29

Kayla wrote:

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
Oh man this comment was great. HD can also be played by memorization, so does that mean we should remove the multiplier for HD too? lmao
HD has the option of both reading and memorization, it's significantly easier.

Baraatje123 wrote:

Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
If it was 99.9% memory that would mean that, statistically, the majority of maps don't even have a single note in them that you read.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

Baraatje123 wrote:

What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
I completely agree that this needs to be thought about some more. Soweon pointed out the issue of crazy sliders, and I'd have to agree that is probably the biggest issue right now. Such as this one: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3940847

You'd be hard pressed to figure out when exactly to change what angle you're moving.

Baraatje123 wrote:

Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
With all due respect, I'm not sure if Peppy is really in the right position to be making these decisions, because he barely even plays osu at all. Then again, he doesn't seem to be concerned with how this change affects FL players at all, so who knows?

Personally, I'd say it would be more visually appropriate for Flashlight players to have the option of maintaining slider visibility with HD as said long sliders lack any sort of feedback. Normal consecutive notes have hitsounds and followpoints to give you at least some direction as to where you're going, but sliders' sliding sounds don't vary based off of how far off-centre you are, and it doesn't have any indication of direction late into the slider with HDFL.
Last edited by Mahogany , edited 1 time in total.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Hmm
To me it seems that way at least
Okay, those -1* maps can be read, but anything higher?
Hell no >___>
012555
2 posts
Joined November 2014
012555
Slider bodies now fade out gradually when playing with hidden mod. This allows for better readability (ability to see notes underneath the sliders) while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.

while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.

feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.

what hidden mod actually stands for.

hidden mod
/thread

"- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion)."

This is a great suggestion however
Haxwell
5 posts
Joined July 2012
Topic Starter
Haxwell

peppy wrote:

Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
Alright Peppy,

I'm thankful for your reply to this thread and I'm also thankful for making my life easier defending my #1 scores since I will start to lose less #1 scores after this change will be pushed onto everyone since maps where both hidden and flashlight will become less playable after this change is implemented.

I appreciate your efforts to help me remain the player with most #1 scores in Osu! standard.

Thanks ♥
Yuutai
18 posts
Joined February 2011
Yuutai
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.


On the toggle-option, why not make it like NC behaves to DT? They're similar features, but because some people like/dislike the pitch change and the nightcore bass you can play either/or with the same outcome. Why not make Hidden HD and this thing FO and let it behave the same way if this absolutely needs to stay.
Dreamcast
101 posts
Joined April 2012
Dreamcast
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

Yuutai wrote:

I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden"
I'd like to have some input on that same point, too.

This is a videogame. When it comes to gameplay elements, such as a mod, shouldn't the focus always be on playability rather than consistency with a name? It doesn't really matter what something is called, rather the meaning it conveys. Hidden conveys a relatively clear meaning, but shouldn't the playability of the mod/combination of mods be more important than being true to the name? I just think we shouldn't restrict the mod to function "as we think the name indicates" and more "what's most fun to play".

It's already been relatively clear that while most people enjoy the changes to hidden on its own, many disagree when it's paired with FL. As such, should there not be an option to use the "old" hidden, at least when you're playing Flashlight, so that people can continue to enjoy both the Hidden and Flashlight mods to their full extents?

Dreamcast wrote:

Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
I agree with that, but this topic is about combination Flashlight + Hidden, which is a different beast entirely.
Frc
356 posts
Joined July 2014
Frc

Kayla wrote:

FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.

If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.

Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.

Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
I'm not a 4mod player or anything, but if it's THAT easy, why don't you do some scores? Ah ok that's what I thought.

Also, I find pretty funny that you talk about skill and that their scores are shit when you probably have no readability or consistency at all.
Yuutai
18 posts
Joined February 2011
Yuutai

Dreamcast wrote:

Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.
Heinzen
149 posts
Joined October 2010
Heinzen
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?

This thread
worst fl player
worst fl player

Miyazono wrote:

You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?

This thread
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.

Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Neymarcus
155 posts
Joined October 2013
Neymarcus

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Miyazono wrote:

You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?

This thread
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.

Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Totally agreed. The hew hidden is amazing to play with the mods that people really give a shit about, but when it comes to FL it gets really bad.
You can't even see where it ends if you have HD and FL...
Karuta-_old_1
947 posts
Joined November 2009
Karuta-_old_1
the mere fact that peppy is breaking osu! into pieces, changing and putting it together after 8 years is a joke in itself

You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
Dreamcast
101 posts
Joined April 2012
Dreamcast

Yuutai wrote:

Dreamcast wrote:

Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.
Well, I was just talking how I felt changes myself (the whole "Imho" part).
It was not "easy" at first, it became "easier" as I adapted to them. It changed the way I saw HD for good. I mean HD only, right?

I respect all kind of opinions and thoughts but my point is not here, as it seems you can't respect mine, anyway.
Somehow it looks like players don't seem to consider they will eventually adapt to these changes (by playing and being pacient, when using HD/HDHR).

Yet I didn't consider the real point of this thread: pairing it with Flashlight.
Maybe there are changes coming to FL too?
Last edited by Dreamcast , edited 1 time in total.
012555
2 posts
Joined November 2014
012555

Yuutai wrote:

Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
I just took a look at mania,
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.

Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"

If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sight

Yuutai wrote:

feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.


I think you are logically incorrect.
worst fl player
worst fl player

012555 wrote:

Yuutai wrote:

Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
I just took a look at mania,
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.

Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"

If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sight

Yuutai wrote:

feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.


I think you are logically incorrect.
Yes but you dont get extra score for completing with mods.......
https://gyazo.com/158e4b3dc781b8c34033990685a180d5
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

peppy wrote:

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?
E14
353 posts
Joined November 2011
E14
if this happens, why not another mod for hidden?

Sudden Death -> Perfect
Double Time -> Nightcore
Hidden -> Fade Out (with a better score multiplier of 1.07x)
Heinzen
149 posts
Joined October 2010
Heinzen

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Miyazono wrote:

You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?

This thread
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.

Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.

Sorry, I only play real maps with real mods
markii
107 posts
Joined August 2013
markii

peppy wrote:

Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".

If we had the sliderball "erase" the slider as it went, would this achieve what you want functionally and aesthetically? I still don't quite understand the reason behind the new sliders, myB
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Karuta-_old_1
947 posts
Joined November 2009
Karuta-_old_1

Baraatje123 wrote:

Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Yeah I agree that we should accept new "features" but changing the gameplay itself is more of a development sided kind of change
I can live with the new score system, I can live with osu! going full OpenGL
but tell me of all things why would you change how the mods behave now?
was there any kind of motive other than pp?
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
more benefits than cons tbh, i only see like 5 fl players complaining and if more people cared then they would show more support...
markii
107 posts
Joined August 2013
markii

Baraatje123 wrote:

Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3

I certainly hope you don't honestly feel that way, and I really hope Peppy doesn't. When something happens and it has genuine flaws (and I'm speaking about change in general not just this,) a large group of people find it detrimental, or it is just ugly then people can and should voice opinions, and they should at the very least be considered. I don't believe you actually live by that "the authority made a change theres nothing we can do surrender and lie down" attitude. Implying that people shouldn't make threads about legitimate greavances is ridiculous.

Also IDC about the new sliders very much, I don't play flashlight so it doesn't bother me when they disappear, but I do think it's ugly the way it's implimented and I think it could be done betta.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Maybe I'm not that much into HDFL compared to FL but I had my fun with it for a while and I don't see my performance on the map I practiced with it(3.5*, ~700 combo) being heavily affected.
I agree that it is affected but I don't feel like the difference is that huge as you can still see where the sliders start/end due to the fade being so slow and followpoints at start and end(if there aren't any you have to memorize anyway, right?)
I'm already glad that peppy gave me the sliderends on appearance back~

On the other hand the new HD eases reading EZHD(in my opinion at least) and I still can't see a riot of EZHD-players that have their scores beaten - sure, not the mod combination you farm #1 with but it's still something you take pride in due to its difficulty.

Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
worst fl player
worst fl player
Sorry, I only play real maps with real mods
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Endaris wrote:

Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
That would mean that the mod isn't consistent throughout other mods, which could confuse new players


also toggles aren't valid requests
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert

Sulker wrote:

iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno
It's the most logical and fitting way to do this. 'Fading Sliders' toggle
This change is not about visuals, it's about playability for HDFL players
I also agree that it became a lot harder ([Hard]-s FL player here)
Timorisu
771 posts
Joined November 2012
Timorisu

blahpy wrote:

peppy wrote:

p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?
Pituophis
859 posts
Joined January 2015
Pituophis
I personally like how hidden is now, it looks nicer and doesn't negatively impact my game play. But there should be an option to play with the original HD style.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Any maps which is slider heavy and it is reasonably fast was made significantly harder to read.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.

Make it toggle-able pls.
Bara-
11,978 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Here we go again >>__>>
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 91