I have old version (old sliders) and i don't have problems, but new sliders are very shitty. I agree...
HDFL now is very hard for new versions
HDFL now is very hard for new versions
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[invalid] Hidden sliders
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This change is extremely dumb if you want to use FL and HD at the same time. Toggle option when FL is enabled would be 101% better imo.
Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is. Flashlight as a mod has been disregarded for the longest time and it'll probably be the same way in the future - bringing this up because the issue lies in fl+hd, while hd alone is fine. The great majority of players don't play fl at all and it's peppy's job to make the game appeal to said player base. This doesn't mean that i support this in any way though.
There are THOUSANDS of freakin' scores with hidden out there, which are easier done than those that will follow. While peppy tried not to change mods like hr and dt (there's really no way he could change any of the values like ar, od and what not, because that would result in unfair advantages for players that have plays on maps already, both in terms of pp and score). Now that's where the whole "BUT HR AND DT CHANGE HOW THE MAP PLAYS, WHILE HD AND FLASHLIGHT DON'T" argument comes into play, which both peppy and tom seem to have a very strong affinity towards.
EVERYONE that's played at least 5 minutes of flashlight knows that it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Just look at the pp values for some of the crazy fl plays out there, they ARE FUCKING LAUGHABLE. There's players out there that are fast and can do +dt or +hr 500pp sightreads all day, but could they poop out 200pp fl plays? PROBABLY NOT. The effort that goes into something like that is wayyyyyyyyy beyond what you actually get, resulting in a absolutely non-rewarding mod (pp-wise)(effort required for a score should be rewarded).
Now, not a whole lot of people play fl because of this, which is kinda sad in and by itself. This change will be stupid for spinner players, it will be stupid for easy/normal players, it will be stupid for crazy fl players like BluOxy etc.
With "ScoreV2" - jesus christ just thinking about this gives me aids - we have another plague to overcome. It might or might not get implemented into singleplayer and i don't want to go too deep into this, but FL only WILL NOT BE IN ANY LEADERBOARDS WHATSOEVER. HDHR overweight's it (by a lot actually), DT ALONE WILL OVERWEIGHT IT, let alone DTHD. With FLHD being waaaaaaay behind DTHD in score, you won't even get your sweet spots on the leaderboards anymore, playing FLHD will be ridiculously difficult, while being even less rewarding than previously. Like seriously who would still play that? YES, FL would be dead as fuck except on fullmod easy/normal diffs.
I'm getting more off topic by the minute, so I'm just gonna call a final bullshit on "fl pp is fine, just play those 8* maps and you'll see"... No that is not gonna happen anytime soon, so there's nothing to worry about or nobody to worry about who might be abusing it in any way. Tom obviously didn't play any flashlight in his life to be able to justify not buffing it in terms of pp.
So yeah, rant end. Some of this is megaaaaaa off topic, but my jimmies get rustled every time i see flashlight being mentioned. Peace.
Edit: Gonna vote this request up, once I'm able to. Just realized i repeated a lot stuff that's already been said, but i was too rustled to read all of it, and I'm too lazy to remove stuff at this point.
ALSO, if you have resources to put into stupid changes like this, how about we get a good anti-cheat-system already? Like seriously how come there's still hundreds of spin-hackers out there, that have been reported a thousand times???? LIKE HOW IN HELL IS THIS PIECE OF SHIT STILL ALIVE: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/6332647 ............................
There are THOUSANDS of freakin' scores with hidden out there, which are easier done than those that will follow. While peppy tried not to change mods like hr and dt (there's really no way he could change any of the values like ar, od and what not, because that would result in unfair advantages for players that have plays on maps already, both in terms of pp and score). Now that's where the whole "BUT HR AND DT CHANGE HOW THE MAP PLAYS, WHILE HD AND FLASHLIGHT DON'T" argument comes into play, which both peppy and tom seem to have a very strong affinity towards.
EVERYONE that's played at least 5 minutes of flashlight knows that it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Just look at the pp values for some of the crazy fl plays out there, they ARE FUCKING LAUGHABLE. There's players out there that are fast and can do +dt or +hr 500pp sightreads all day, but could they poop out 200pp fl plays? PROBABLY NOT. The effort that goes into something like that is wayyyyyyyyy beyond what you actually get, resulting in a absolutely non-rewarding mod (pp-wise)(effort required for a score should be rewarded).
Now, not a whole lot of people play fl because of this, which is kinda sad in and by itself. This change will be stupid for spinner players, it will be stupid for easy/normal players, it will be stupid for crazy fl players like BluOxy etc.
With "ScoreV2" - jesus christ just thinking about this gives me aids - we have another plague to overcome. It might or might not get implemented into singleplayer and i don't want to go too deep into this, but FL only WILL NOT BE IN ANY LEADERBOARDS WHATSOEVER. HDHR overweight's it (by a lot actually), DT ALONE WILL OVERWEIGHT IT, let alone DTHD. With FLHD being waaaaaaay behind DTHD in score, you won't even get your sweet spots on the leaderboards anymore, playing FLHD will be ridiculously difficult, while being even less rewarding than previously. Like seriously who would still play that? YES, FL would be dead as fuck except on fullmod easy/normal diffs.
I'm getting more off topic by the minute, so I'm just gonna call a final bullshit on "fl pp is fine, just play those 8* maps and you'll see"... No that is not gonna happen anytime soon, so there's nothing to worry about or nobody to worry about who might be abusing it in any way. Tom obviously didn't play any flashlight in his life to be able to justify not buffing it in terms of pp.
So yeah, rant end. Some of this is megaaaaaa off topic, but my jimmies get rustled every time i see flashlight being mentioned. Peace.
Edit: Gonna vote this request up, once I'm able to. Just realized i repeated a lot stuff that's already been said, but i was too rustled to read all of it, and I'm too lazy to remove stuff at this point.
ALSO, if you have resources to put into stupid changes like this, how about we get a good anti-cheat-system already? Like seriously how come there's still hundreds of spin-hackers out there, that have been reported a thousand times???? LIKE HOW IN HELL IS THIS PIECE OF SHIT STILL ALIVE: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/6332647 ............................
[ Haruka ]_old_1
This is the main reason i support this, but all this fl being underrated stuff is also correct. Take my star (in some hours).Wilken-nyan wrote:
Like previously said, it's just really fucking stupid to change a mods mechanic after such a long fucking time. ESPECIALLY one that is already working as it is.
I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.Baraatje123 wrote:
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
#1s mean nothing.Fey wrote:
This is funny, because you have no #1s, let alone with HDFL.Baraatje123 wrote:
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
Give it time, I'm sure you'll adapt
The update hasn't even been live for a week on stable, and personally as a non-fl player, I enjoy the new HD sliders
The update hasn't even been live for a week on stable, and personally as a non-fl player, I enjoy the new HD sliders
iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno
Someone doesn't play HDFL...Baraatje123 wrote:
I now disagree with this
I haven't played hidden in a while, and decided to play it now
I really like it, it gives much more readability to sliderstacks, making previously awful to play stacks quite readable now
These are also the case with Fl
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
You just need to get used to it
Sightreading 100 combo with HDFL is nothing compared to the memorisation HDFL players pull off.
Plus, making Hidden easier isn't a positive thing. With that logic, remove the fact that FL grows every 100 combo until 200 combo, because it makes it easier for us.
It used to be a challenge to read the stacks under sliders.
But what would I know, I'm just some shitty player who farms #1s because I can exploit my arm muscles, right?
On a side note: I love it how all the spin players have all joined to chip in their opinion ;D
If you are saying HDFL is memorization, why does it matter that the sliders fade if you memorize them anyway?
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?
I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.
HD is much better since the update. No more 'hidden notes'. Readability is great now. Sliders behave like a hit object as they always should have instead of behaving like an un-HD slider. I much prefer Hidden now that the change has gone through on CE. 10/10.
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?
I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.
HD is much better since the update. No more 'hidden notes'. Readability is great now. Sliders behave like a hit object as they always should have instead of behaving like an un-HD slider. I much prefer Hidden now that the change has gone through on CE. 10/10.
^^
This
Just this
This
Just this
This is the most retarded thing I've read all week. If you have no experience with something AND NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER, then could you please just stay quiet. Like you don't even play FL and try to justify the hidden sliders.Kayla wrote:
I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?
I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.
There is reading going on with easy/normal and even hard/easier insane maps with FL. If you farm #1's for example, you will most likely NOT memorize the complete map, but maybe 1-2 really really really short parts. It's more about reacting than memorizing at that point. HD however takes all of this away.
Why in the hell should FL not have a multiplier? WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU COMMENTING ON SOMETHING PEOPLE LIKE WITH SUCH A OBVIOUSLY NEGATIVE BIAS? like you probably never played FL in your entire freakin' life, go into a thread and spread your not thought out little bullshitty opinion.
Same goes for the other smartass.
Let's say ar9+dt would be changed to ar11 instead of ar10.3! Would i go into a thread and say: "Well you know, it's a totally justified change. I mean i can comment on this because i almost got 10 seconds into a song with it!" NO I FUCKING WOULDN'T.
Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked
Neither does anything you or that other guy said.Baraatje123 wrote:
Can you please stop raging if people disagree with something you agree with?
Everyone is allowed to have a meaning right?
It doesn't support the thread at all
It actually makes it more likely to be shut down completely and be locked
If Haxwell has a problem with any of what I'm saying, then I'll gladly delete it.
worst fl player
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
lol watch out for peppy with a baseball bat!
i do support option 3 tho
i do support option 3 tho
- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion).
HDFL can either be entirely memorized, or you can sightread some easy parts of it. Removing the readability of HDFL will make it harder for some, sometimes much harder, such as on [http://osu.ppy.sh/s/874 NicoVideo - Kona-Chan: Farucon Pan! (sm2164009)]. Once you play FL or HDFL a lot you will see how sometimes you can sightread maps on FL.Kayla wrote:
I'm sorry, when you clicked Flashlight and wanted to 4 mod normals, did you expect it to be easy?
Honestly HD on top of FL is just memorization, so whats the problem 'reading' HD FL when all you do is memorize it anyway?
Kayla wrote:
I'm part of the more than likely small group of people who think FL is a complete joke. It removes readability from maps and turns it into a memory game. FL should be for bragging rights. It should have no multiplier at all.
There are two ways to know how to click notes in the game: reading and memorization. I use both, even without flashlight. I can't read ar10 so I memorize the map, I sometimes memorize hidden, heck I sometimes memorize nomod. Reading and memorization both take skill, and just saying memorization is not part of osu! is not correct.Kayla wrote:
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
Making new scores easier to set is pretty bad already, now make new scores harder to set is even worse. Flashlight is a mod that will become dead in the future. This is what is happening to HDFL right now.Kayla wrote:
If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
This is just an insult to people who try their best to get #1 scores. Go ahead and try getting a 4mod #1 score on a easy/normal map, it is much harder than you might think without practice. osu! is about having skill, and getting #1 scores is a skill. If spinning takes no skill, why do spinners exist in this game? Also remember the five digit players that try to play easy/normal maps with fullmod might not find it as easy as us.Kayla wrote:
Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
Skill range varies among all players. Just because you can pass a song does not mean others can.Kayla wrote:
Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
Also, some people like to see themselves be better at something than others. This is how human competition works.
It would be much more convenient to just toggle on or off, as some skins are made for aesthetics rather than readability. Nowdays people like to use skins to improve their gameplay, but some don't. I use skins for both aesthetics and readability, and brightening the sliders will sacrifice aesthetics for readability. This is already the case in the newest version where peppy is trying to force sausage sliders down our throats. Some people just don't like the look of those sliders while others do.Baraatje123 wrote:
If you just have bright Sliderbody or Sliderborder in your skin, you have 0 readability problems at all
Most, if not every slider is easily followable with this, even with Fl on
Also, it's about the sliders that can't be read with the new hidden change that matters. If all sliders are readable using HDFL, then this thread won't exist.
To be honest, I like this change, but I am concerned about how peppy is trying to push flashlight players aside and say they don't really matter. It's like discrimination against minorities in real life. If flashlight players don't matter why did peppy include flashlight in this game in the first place?
Having a fair playing field for a game that is driven by competition is extremely important. So, I support this even though I rarely play HD and I never play HDFL.
I do see why hidden shouldnt change via haxwell and therefore think it better not change, but if peppy change mod, then either must adjust or not play.
My biggest gripe with the new Hidden is that it's still the same mod. Not implementing a Hidden2 á la Nightcore gives people who played on previous versions of osu! a rather huge advantage as the mod WAS easier before. You did not need to memorize as much stuff and reading sliders was much much easier.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.
And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.
And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.
Oh boy am I glad someone made a request for this.
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.
And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.
And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).
SPOILER
Seriously... think about it... When you start the slider, you have no clue where the end is with Flashlight. No problem on sliders that go straight or in a curve or whatever, but when they are super long and in all sorts of shapes it becomes impossible.
Oh wait
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
Trust me, it's not.Baraatje123 wrote:
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory.
But with the new hidden it will be like that, and that is something I (+plenty of other people apparently) do not want.
worst fl player
Oh man this comment was great. HD can also be played by memorization, so does that mean we should remove the multiplier for HD too? lmaoKayla wrote:
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
HD has the option of both reading and memorization, it's significantly easier.
If it was 99.9% memory that would mean that, statistically, the majority of maps don't even have a single note in them that you read.Baraatje123 wrote:
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
I completely agree that this needs to be thought about some more. Soweon pointed out the issue of crazy sliders, and I'd have to agree that is probably the biggest issue right now. Such as this one: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3940847Baraatje123 wrote:
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
You'd be hard pressed to figure out when exactly to change what angle you're moving.
With all due respect, I'm not sure if Peppy is really in the right position to be making these decisions, because he barely even plays osu at all. Then again, he doesn't seem to be concerned with how this change affects FL players at all, so who knows?Baraatje123 wrote:
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
Personally, I'd say it would be more visually appropriate for Flashlight players to have the option of maintaining slider visibility with HD as said long sliders lack any sort of feedback. Normal consecutive notes have hitsounds and followpoints to give you at least some direction as to where you're going, but sliders' sliding sounds don't vary based off of how far off-centre you are, and it doesn't have any indication of direction late into the slider with HDFL.
Hmm
To me it seems that way at least
Okay, those -1* maps can be read, but anything higher?
Hell no >___>
To me it seems that way at least
Okay, those -1* maps can be read, but anything higher?
Hell no >___>
Slider bodies now fade out gradually when playing with hidden mod. This allows for better readability (ability to see notes underneath the sliders) while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
what hidden mod actually stands for.
hidden mod
/thread
"- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion)."
This is a great suggestion however
while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
what hidden mod actually stands for.
hidden mod
/thread
"- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion)."
This is a great suggestion however
Topic Starter
Alright Peppy,peppy wrote:
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
I'm thankful for your reply to this thread and I'm also thankful for making my life easier defending my #1 scores since I will start to lose less #1 scores after this change will be pushed onto everyone since maps where both hidden and flashlight will become less playable after this change is implemented.
I appreciate your efforts to help me remain the player with most #1 scores in Osu! standard.
Thanks ♥
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
On the toggle-option, why not make it like NC behaves to DT? They're similar features, but because some people like/dislike the pitch change and the nightcore bass you can play either/or with the same outcome. Why not make Hidden HD and this thing FO and let it behave the same way if this absolutely needs to stay.
On the toggle-option, why not make it like NC behaves to DT? They're similar features, but because some people like/dislike the pitch change and the nightcore bass you can play either/or with the same outcome. Why not make Hidden HD and this thing FO and let it behave the same way if this absolutely needs to stay.
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
I'd like to have some input on that same point, too.Yuutai wrote:
I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden"
This is a videogame. When it comes to gameplay elements, such as a mod, shouldn't the focus always be on playability rather than consistency with a name? It doesn't really matter what something is called, rather the meaning it conveys. Hidden conveys a relatively clear meaning, but shouldn't the playability of the mod/combination of mods be more important than being true to the name? I just think we shouldn't restrict the mod to function "as we think the name indicates" and more "what's most fun to play".
It's already been relatively clear that while most people enjoy the changes to hidden on its own, many disagree when it's paired with FL. As such, should there not be an option to use the "old" hidden, at least when you're playing Flashlight, so that people can continue to enjoy both the Hidden and Flashlight mods to their full extents?
I agree with that, but this topic is about combination Flashlight + Hidden, which is a different beast entirely.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
I'm not a 4mod player or anything, but if it's THAT easy, why don't you do some scores? Ah ok that's what I thought.Kayla wrote:
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
Also, I find pretty funny that you talk about skill and that their scores are shit when you probably have no readability or consistency at all.
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
This thread
worst fl player
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Totally agreed. The hew hidden is amazing to play with the mods that people really give a shit about, but when it comes to FL it gets really bad.L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
You can't even see where it ends if you have HD and FL...
the mere fact that peppy is breaking osu! into pieces, changing and putting it together after 8 years is a joke in itself
You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
Well, I was just talking how I felt changes myself (the whole "Imho" part).Yuutai wrote:
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
It was not "easy" at first, it became "easier" as I adapted to them. It changed the way I saw HD for good. I mean HD only, right?
I respect all kind of opinions and thoughts but my point is not here, as it seems you can't respect mine, anyway.
Somehow it looks like players don't seem to consider they will eventually adapt to these changes (by playing and being pacient, when using HD/HDHR).
Yet I didn't consider the real point of this thread: pairing it with Flashlight.
Maybe there are changes coming to FL too?
I just took a look at mania,Yuutai wrote:
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.
Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"
If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sight
Yuutai wrote:
feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.
I think you are logically incorrect.
worst fl player
Yes but you dont get extra score for completing with mods.......012555 wrote:
I just took a look at mania,Yuutai wrote:
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.
Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"
If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sightYuutai wrote:
feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.
I think you are logically incorrect.
https://gyazo.com/158e4b3dc781b8c34033990685a180d5
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?peppy wrote:
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
if this happens, why not another mod for hidden?
Sudden Death -> Perfect
Double Time -> Nightcore
Hidden -> Fade Out (with a better score multiplier of 1.07x)
Sudden Death -> Perfect
Double Time -> Nightcore
Hidden -> Fade Out (with a better score multiplier of 1.07x)
L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Sorry, I only play real maps with real mods
peppy wrote:
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
If we had the sliderball "erase" the slider as it went, would this achieve what you want functionally and aesthetically? I still don't quite understand the reason behind the new sliders, myB
Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Yeah I agree that we should accept new "features" but changing the gameplay itself is more of a development sided kind of changeBaraatje123 wrote:
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
I can live with the new score system, I can live with osu! going full OpenGL
but tell me of all things why would you change how the mods behave now?
was there any kind of motive other than pp?
more benefits than cons tbh, i only see like 5 fl players complaining and if more people cared then they would show more support...
Baraatje123 wrote:
Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
I certainly hope you don't honestly feel that way, and I really hope Peppy doesn't. When something happens and it has genuine flaws (and I'm speaking about change in general not just this,) a large group of people find it detrimental, or it is just ugly then people can and should voice opinions, and they should at the very least be considered. I don't believe you actually live by that "the authority made a change theres nothing we can do surrender and lie down" attitude. Implying that people shouldn't make threads about legitimate greavances is ridiculous.
Also IDC about the new sliders very much, I don't play flashlight so it doesn't bother me when they disappear, but I do think it's ugly the way it's implimented and I think it could be done betta.
Maybe I'm not that much into HDFL compared to FL but I had my fun with it for a while and I don't see my performance on the map I practiced with it(3.5*, ~700 combo) being heavily affected.
I agree that it is affected but I don't feel like the difference is that huge as you can still see where the sliders start/end due to the fade being so slow and followpoints at start and end(if there aren't any you have to memorize anyway, right?)
I'm already glad that peppy gave me the sliderends on appearance back~
On the other hand the new HD eases reading EZHD(in my opinion at least) and I still can't see a riot of EZHD-players that have their scores beaten - sure, not the mod combination you farm #1 with but it's still something you take pride in due to its difficulty.
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
I agree that it is affected but I don't feel like the difference is that huge as you can still see where the sliders start/end due to the fade being so slow and followpoints at start and end(if there aren't any you have to memorize anyway, right?)
I'm already glad that peppy gave me the sliderends on appearance back~
On the other hand the new HD eases reading EZHD(in my opinion at least) and I still can't see a riot of EZHD-players that have their scores beaten - sure, not the mod combination you farm #1 with but it's still something you take pride in due to its difficulty.
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
That would mean that the mod isn't consistent throughout other mods, which could confuse new playersEndaris wrote:
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
also toggles aren't valid requests
It's the most logical and fitting way to do this. 'Fading Sliders' toggleSulker wrote:
iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno
This change is not about visuals, it's about playability for HDFL players
I also agree that it became a lot harder ([Hard]-s FL player here)
blahpy wrote:
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?peppy wrote:
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
I personally like how hidden is now, it looks nicer and doesn't negatively impact my game play. But there should be an option to play with the original HD style.
Any maps which is slider heavy and it is reasonably fast was made significantly harder to read.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
Here we go again >>__>>
THERE WAS THOUSANDS OF POSTS ABOUT IT THEY SAY NO.xasuma wrote:
Any maps which is slider heavy and it is reasonably fast was made significantly harder to read.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
did that make you clear ?
I can only agree to any of these changes listed above. For somebody who has been slowly but surely improving to get #1 on his favourite song, this adds an extra layer of difficulty when it comes to remembering which end of the slider to press, some maps are really fast and don't even give you time to see the slider before you have to press it, and this sometimes makes it confusing or hard to do it. I think my problem with this is that it's adding an extra piece of difficulty to an already hard mod combination. Sometimes it makes it easier when exclusively using Hidden with Hard Rock and/or Double Time/Nightcore, but when added with Flashlight it does make it quite difficult. While yes it is a visual improvement to the mod, that visual improvement puts people at a disadvantage than others. It was if you changed the double time speed increase to 1.3 instead of 1.25 but left all of the previous scores and the same multiplier there. While yes, that is a little more drastic, the same thing stands: newer players or people going towards a better score will now have a harder time doing it compared to those players that had it previously to the update.
Yes, it does make the game look prettier in the sense, yes it does make the game look a little better and hides EVERYTHING not just simple beats, but if you're going to add a feature that gives newer players a disadvantage (I don't care for the arguments that simply say "FL makes it a memory game so it's only a little more to remember", I shouldn't have to try harder for a high score just because I attempted for a higher score a little later) at least add an option to revert it or any of the other options allowed above.
To all the people defending this new update, let us make it so all the visual things you can toggle in the game (snaking sliders, screen fire, side-characters, video, beatmaps, beatmap skins, beatmap sounds) had to be used and you couldn't turn it off no matter what. How is that fair because those things add a layer of concentration to the game as you have to keep your focus while the screen is in flames, at every 50 combo you get a person popping out and the sliders appear out of nowhere... You would atest to it easily and would be disproving of it, so how is this really different apart from "well not ALL PCs can run those previously mentioned things"?
I rest my case, but if this is kept without even any way to turn it off, it's just going to anger people and people are going to constantly suggest it to be removed until it is done so
Yes, it does make the game look prettier in the sense, yes it does make the game look a little better and hides EVERYTHING not just simple beats, but if you're going to add a feature that gives newer players a disadvantage (I don't care for the arguments that simply say "FL makes it a memory game so it's only a little more to remember", I shouldn't have to try harder for a high score just because I attempted for a higher score a little later) at least add an option to revert it or any of the other options allowed above.
To all the people defending this new update, let us make it so all the visual things you can toggle in the game (snaking sliders, screen fire, side-characters, video, beatmaps, beatmap skins, beatmap sounds) had to be used and you couldn't turn it off no matter what. How is that fair because those things add a layer of concentration to the game as you have to keep your focus while the screen is in flames, at every 50 combo you get a person popping out and the sliders appear out of nowhere... You would atest to it easily and would be disproving of it, so how is this really different apart from "well not ALL PCs can run those previously mentioned things"?
I rest my case, but if this is kept without even any way to turn it off, it's just going to anger people and people are going to constantly suggest it to be removed until it is done so
So because the developers made an obviously bad choice seeing how there were THOUSANDS OF POSTS complaining about this new feature, and they said no, why in the WORLD should we stop if we disagree with an obvious flaw. This is exactly how online games grow stale because the developer decides to make a bad decision then they don't listen to that group of people affected by it, then those people drop out. Look at Runescape for example (I know, but it's the only online game I've had YEARS of experience with), they added a certain feature that stopped people from trading properly, leading to a large portion of the player base to quit because the developers refused to revert the change after many many requests for it to happen. It's kicking down the minority in a game similar to how society handles it. I don't see why in the world I, or anybody else, should stop making posts requesting it to be changed.Faustas156 wrote:
THERE WAS THOUSANDS OF POSTS ABOUT IT THEY SAY NO.
did that make you clear ?
What is this, Black and Blue vs. White and Gold all over again?
I love how Peppy said you shouldn't use the word harder, yet on every post it's like the most important argument
Especially since, without FL, new hidden is actually way easier.
It makes it harder. It's a simple fact and if peppy wants to ignore it, then that's his mistake.Baraatje123 wrote:
I love how Peppy said you shouldn't use the word harder, yet on every post it's like the most important argument
Anyway, this is literally the MAIN ARGUMENT for why we want this changed, so basically asking us not to argue the same point is stupid and defeats the whole point of this and almost any other thread about this being made. It's made it the same for me. Maybe a small bit easier but not as drastic as it has effected the HDFL combination.Mahogany wrote:
Especially since, without FL, new hidden is actually way easier.
Monkey_old_1
Ok, the new change is ugly and visually less appropriate. Is that subjective enough for you?peppy wrote:
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
FTFYMonkey wrote:
Ok, the new change is cool and visually more appropriate. Is that subjective enough for you?
Ok I wouldn't usually reply to threads in this manner, but some of you are being outright dumb.
You might want to look into the meaning of the word "fact" before using it.
Other motives:
* Cleans up the codebase, makes things more centralized rather than having to draw them in a very specific way. Maybe improved performance slightly, but probably unnoticeable.
* It's the way HD should have worked originally.
Okay first of all, can you avoid commenting on mods if you have 5800 playcount? This not only goes for you, but for every other person in this thread complaining about the difficulty of HDFL. At your level this is not/should not be a competitive game, it is a fun game. Such a change does NOT affect your enjoyment of this game in any way. You're better off forgetting the old HD ever existed and keep trotting along.
Second of all, whether HD makes it harder or not is completely subjective. I haven't seen any high ranked players complain about the change and I encourage players in this thread to improve and actually play the game before discussing the difficulty of it. I assure you that your perspective will change as you reach a higher rank and your reading ability improves. Sorry but if you can't remember the slider pattern (which mind you is usually linear or arced) then you simply should not be playing HD.
Top players (hvick225, rafis, Cookiezi) perform just fine with HD, and you can too if you stopped blaming the change instead of your own inexperience.
As a final word: I am locking this thread, as I do not believe it to be of any value. HD will not be changed, a toggle will not be added, a skin option will not be added. In-fact I felt bad for dirtying the codebase in such a way when I put it back temporarily for the beginning of OWC.
Karuta- wrote:
the mere fact that peppy is breaking osu! into pieces, changing and putting it together after 8 years is a joke in itself
You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
You might want to look into the meaning of the word "fact" before using it.
Karuta- wrote:
Baraatje123 wrote:
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Yeah I agree that we should accept new "features" but changing the gameplay itself is more of a development sided kind of change
I can live with the new score system, I can live with osu! going full OpenGL
but tell me of all things why would you change how the mods behave now?
was there any kind of motive other than pp?
Other motives:
* Cleans up the codebase, makes things more centralized rather than having to draw them in a very specific way. Maybe improved performance slightly, but probably unnoticeable.
* It's the way HD should have worked originally.
TheDragonXD wrote:
Baraatje123 wrote:
I love how Peppy said you shouldn't use the word harder, yet on every post it's like the most important argument
It makes it harder. It's a simple fact and if peppy wants to ignore it, then that's his mistake.Mahogany wrote:
Especially since, without FL, new hidden is actually way easier.
It's made it the same for me. Maybe a small bit easier but not as drastic as it has effected the HDFL combination.
Okay first of all, can you avoid commenting on mods if you have 5800 playcount? This not only goes for you, but for every other person in this thread complaining about the difficulty of HDFL. At your level this is not/should not be a competitive game, it is a fun game. Such a change does NOT affect your enjoyment of this game in any way. You're better off forgetting the old HD ever existed and keep trotting along.
Second of all, whether HD makes it harder or not is completely subjective. I haven't seen any high ranked players complain about the change and I encourage players in this thread to improve and actually play the game before discussing the difficulty of it. I assure you that your perspective will change as you reach a higher rank and your reading ability improves. Sorry but if you can't remember the slider pattern (which mind you is usually linear or arced) then you simply should not be playing HD.
Top players (hvick225, rafis, Cookiezi) perform just fine with HD, and you can too if you stopped blaming the change instead of your own inexperience.
As a final word: I am locking this thread, as I do not believe it to be of any value. HD will not be changed, a toggle will not be added, a skin option will not be added. In-fact I felt bad for dirtying the codebase in such a way when I put it back temporarily for the beginning of OWC.