[New Rule] Short sliders and percussion beats

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Liiraye
I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing. I've seen it work really well on loads of maps, to which I even adopted that style myself. Using it I've made my personal favorite maps of my own, and according to every playtester.

I don't see a point in ruling it out tbh. If it's overmapping used well I'm all for it.
Topic Starter
Kert

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
Yauxo

Kert wrote:

You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
You could always half/double/triple/quadruple/etc the BPM of the song too, in case you want 1/2, 1/1, 2/1, 4/1 or x/1 to be excessive too.

Usually it's like this: 1/1 is the basic beat, 1/2 is what we see as the basic playing beat (Singletaps). 1/4 are Streams to us (fast consecutive beats), 1/8 are "really fast Streams" (not many music genres use 1/8, so it's not used very often) and 1/16 are for shitmaps.

So basically;
1/1 is common
1/2 is common
1/4 is pretty common
1/8 is uncommon, is restricted to some music genres
1/16 is uncommon

I'd assume that this is why we're allowing up to 1/8 if the music allows for it. If it doesnt fit, then we're not using it. That's just how songs work (I guess).
Does that somewhat explain my thought? x:

After all, if you think that 1/4 is excessive - Dont use it. Nobody is forcing you to map that way - but neither should you try to disallow others to use what they'd like to use.
Liiraye

Kert wrote:

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
What I meant about letting the ranking process handle it is to let the people in charge of ranking maps decide if it fits or not.
I didn't say 1/16 is bad, but in gameplay it makes the windows for hitting/releasing it correct extremely small. On the other hand, 1/8 is pretty easy to get right, and what I'm talking about is 1/8 kicksliders, where they don't repeat.

Regardless of my preferences, it all comes down to how it plays. If it's for example a low bpm map, 1/16 could be used as a 1/8 slider would on a faster map if the song allows for such patterns. Now you might say songs don't allow that, and that it's overmapping, but it's basically a subjective thing from both your and my side, and if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
I consider mapping an artform because of how diverse and unique it can be from person to person. It's for everyone to express their feelings onto a song and at the same time make it play nice.
Kibbleru
ur sounding like ur forcing others to do stuff, which is why ur getting all this hate

other than that i also agree with captin
Topic Starter
Kert

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
CXu
From our conversations in-game, I still have a hard time grasping exactly what or why you dislike some of these patterns, when they're okay and when they're not, according to you. Why not post a few ranked maps with examples of both "good" and "bad" usage of this, explain thoroughly why something works or doesn't work in your opinion?

Would make it easier for people to understand (since obviously you're not trying to ban all usage of shortsliders, so us coming with examples/scenarios where they work well won't really help). If people agree, pinpointing exactly what you want to address will also make it much easier to formulate a rule/guideline that actually does what you want to.
Monstrata
:|

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
There are special cases yes, but compare the number of special cases to cases where these kick sliders have no disruption to gameplay. I don't have any hard numbers but I can imagine the ratio being very much in favor of the latter. Of course, it also depends on what people consider are "kicksliders that disrupt gameplay" but the subjectivity of this statement already makes calling it a rule a horrible idea. Rules have to be objective.

Even as a guideline I can't see the rule being very useful in the modding process. People aren't going to follow this guideline not because they don't have to, but because this technique isn't even considered disruptive. There are special cases, and thats where the modding process takes place. Modding is there to clean up the subjective issues that rules cannot cover. Things like this should be considered on a case-by-case basis and the modding process allows for that to happen.
Liiraye

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
Then guidelines shouldn't be enforced if the mapper knows what he's doing. If you had this rule banning this way of mapping, said mappers wouldn't even be able to produce it. After all, if it disrupts gameplay BN's/QAT will get on it. If nobody thinks it does disrupt gameplay but you still do... well maybe the problem lies with you then? I still think having this as a rule would cause more harm than good.


Also what makes mapping that different from painting? You can create pretty much any shape in every angle and direction over a canvas. Imo it trancends painting due to how it compliments a song at the same time, and how patterns flow together. Games are art too you know.
Kibbleru
what you are saying mostly gets filtered out by the ranking process itself.
theres no real need for the rule
VINXIS
get gud lolz



legit just needs playing skill the patterns r easy shit idk wot ur on

its not ovemapped for any map I've seen

when using kicksliders in the stream when there's a kick or snare the tail end is mapped to the release of the sound while the head is mapped to its transient

for arpeggios the head is mapped to the stronger/higher pitch sound while the end is mapped to the weaker or lower pitch like in claoimh or the pretender


ok
Garven
You really can't put something absolute on something so open to interpretation. Unless you can offer a concrete example where this will always be bad, using this as a basis for a hard rule will not work.

Also my head hurt after trying to read the previous post. Yowza
Sieg
better to handle such things with modding\qualifying process i.e. case by case
Topic Starter
Kert
Some examples where this interferes gameplay and is basically bad

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
00:41:383 (6) - http://puu.sh/koPA6/3269df2717.jpg
00:55:328 (2,3) - http://puu.sh/koPF2/8d184182c8.jpg

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/495633
02:18:234 (4,5) - , 00:57:392 (5,6) - They are even hitsounded as if they are circles?
03:43:339 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - Partly silenced sliders everything mixed

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)
Monstrata

Kert wrote:

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)
I have to disagree with the examples you provided. They don't interfere with gameplay for me. What you are bringing up are just subjective gameplay elements that you think are "basically bad" but they may play fine or are even very enjoyable to others. You can't just list examples and say they will "always be bad" because labelling something as "good or bad" is assigning your opinionated and subjective quality onto them. They play bad to you, that doesn't mean they play bad to everyone, therefore you can't create an objective rule to define something that is subjective.

Your point about hit-sounding on kick-slider ends is interesting though. I can agree that clicking and immediately releasing is how many kicksliders are meant to be played. However, if the slider-end is hitsounded, players will indeed hear a hitsound that they did not actively play. I can see it being misleading in some scenarios where 1/4's are not present because that would technically be an overmap as the slider-end follows nothing, (but then those slider-ends shouldn't be hitsounded to begin with (imo) so those situations would feel more like a mistake and/or oversight during the modding process). Hit-sounding the slider-ends during kickslider-substituted stream sections can be enjoyable though, and you still get to hear the hitsounds that follow the 1/4's without playing them.

In any case, you are trying to make a rule to objectively define something that is clearly subjective. This is the wrong approach. Make a modding queue: "Kert's Kick-slider Evaluation Queue." :D
Kloyd
i think how to use is crucial.
some of bad examples never means that a pattern is totally bad.
many guys who try that pattern without knowing 'how to use those properly' have made this situation imo.

i dunno hows this goin, i even did not read the whole thread so im not sure im posting right things on this thread.

my point is
instead of making an harsh rule which can affect to the mappers and their creativity directly, BNs and QATs being more strict to pass a map to ranked map slots can be one of the better ideas.
That also can make overall quality of the qualified-ranked-maps better.
imo.

.
- an opinion of the man who was just passin-by
Yauxo

Kert wrote:

Some examples where this interferes gameplay and is basically bad

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
00:41:383 (6) - http://puu.sh/koPA6/3269df2717.jpg
00:55:328 (2,3) - http://puu.sh/koPF2/8d184182c8.jpg

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/495633
02:18:234 (4,5) - , 00:57:392 (5,6) - They are even hitsounded as if they are circles?
03:43:339 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - Partly silenced sliders everything mixed

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)
I mostly disagree with the examples youve given (besides the 3:43:339, as that feels somewhat weird indeed), since they're just a style thing. Some people prefer mapping a Kickslider instead of a triplet here and there, whether it be because the 2nd beat in the triplet isnt as strong as the 1st and 3rd, or to take some density out of the map. There are many reasons why someone would want to map x over y. "Bad patterns" are subjective.

Though, Im not sure on which side I'd want to be regarding the hitsound on the Slidertail. While I can see that having a louder hitsound on a non-existing blue tick doesnt make any sense, I'd also say that this really depends on the actual usage and map difficulty (For example, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990 is full of these kinds, yet, when playing, you dont really notice them. It just really fits to the map and there really isnt much to complain about (00:35:136 (2,3) - 00:36:492 (2) - ) Even though taking that map as example might be a bit extreme). There are times where I really want to map a Kickslider to add more movement into the pattern because it's the highlight of the song, even though there arent any "very noticable" beats on the blue ticks. It's just a feel thing to me.

And after all, I mean, yea, maybe tell the BNs to be a bit more strict about bad Kickslider usage, but I dont see the point why we're going back and forth with that "kicksliders are bad i dont like them pls ban" and "no they not why you say dat" and "because they bad" and "but they not" ... you get the point.

I also dont know if it has been mentioned yet (or if it's relevant), but Kickslider are also great to support very strong beats that sit on a 1/2 basis. Again, take Neuronecia as example for this and look at 00:33:780 (2,3) - type of patterns. You have a pretty strong beat on the Sliderhead which drags onto the next 1/2 tick. Problem on that example now is, that the coming tick adds another strong beat as well, so it wouldnt be optimal to let the Slider end there (Since Sliderends are "weak"). What do now? Kicksliders do now. That way you can support all 3 beats here. The strong initial hit, the strong drag and the strong second beat.
This^ type of idea is somewhat common nowadays, making these unrankable would be pretty bleh.
Topic Starter
Kert

Kloyd wrote:

i think how to use is crucial.
many guys who try that pattern without knowing 'how to use those properly' have made this situation imo.

Yauxo wrote:

And after all, I mean, yea, maybe tell the BNs to be a bit more strict about bad Kickslider usage, but I dont see the point why we're going back and forth with that "kicksliders are bad i dont like them pls ban" and "no they not why you say dat" and "because they bad" and "but they not" ... you get the point.
There's just no open place for discussion afaik which can get enough attention on the problem
And yes I agree with both of you on this
Garven
Looks like we have found the crux. Using a rule proposition to try and shame BNs isn't really what this forum is for, sorry.
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