[New Rule] Short sliders and percussion beats

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Topic Starter
Kert
No one follows guidelines so

Never use short sliders to follow percussion beats. They are instant sounds, so holding a note down doesn't make sense.

There's too many maps using this mapping trend currently and I'd say this it as an artificial way to increase the difficulty without any reason.
It's close to what overmapping is, but in a slightly different way.
Bara-
Yes please
I really hate 1/8 sliders at 1/2 sounds
They cause quick combobreaks due to 1/8
I like this. And I want this
DakeDekaane
Have in mind this doesn't only apply to short sliders, some people uses 3/4 (extended) sliders when there's no held note at all, just a plain hit.

It'd work more as a guideline, since it's hard to tell if it's a single hit/held note in some cases, leading to endless discussions.
blissfulyoshi
No. Sounds are a vibration in the air, so they don't disappear instantly. Maps should never be forced to play as you would make the sound in real life.
Lust

blissfulyoshi wrote:

No. Sounds are a vibration in the air, so they don't disappear instantly. Maps should never be forced to play as you would make the sound in real life.
Agreed. In addition, if the mapping technique didn't fit the song enough, then it would surely be worked out in the modding/ranking process.
Arzenvald
hooo interesting.. in osu!mania it would turns into nonsense to map / layer percussion beat with slider (or long notes)..
and so far from what i saw there's only few (or even none..?) of osu!mania map that uses long notes for percussion.. should be work in ctb & osu!std mode too
Frostmourne

DakeDekaane wrote:

Have in mind this doesn't only apply to short sliders, some people uses 3/4 (extended) sliders when there's no held note at all, just a plain hit.

It'd work more as a guideline, since it's hard to tell if it's a single hit/held note in some cases, leading to endless discussions.
Making 3/4 extended sliders that do not follow anything in music unrankable would be the best idea. I'm not joking at all!
Okoratu
The I'm not joking at all! part makes it sound like a joke

so this is one of those "i don't like this technique so let's make it unrankable" threads? On that matter I would agree with yoshi and Lust
Frostmourne

Okoratu wrote:

The I'm not joking at all! part makes it sound like a joke

so this is one of those "i don't like this technique so let's make it unrankable" threads? On that matter I would agree with yoshi and Lust
I have nothing against 3/4 extended sliders that follow the song. What I was referring to was the end of sliders that try to be held for the sake of following vocal when there is a real beat 1/4 after but this is 2015 so I think you are right! ;)
Topic Starter
Kert
An example of this is replacing 2circles+longer slider patterns (it's a triple in tapping sense) with 1/4 short sliders + longer slider combinations without any musical reason (become 2 spaced with 1/2 apart).
I specifically mention percussion since this can be okay in for example dubstep-like maps because they have short enough not-percussion effects that fit to these patterns.
Frostmourne

Kert wrote:

An example of this is replacing 2circles+longer slider patterns (it's a triple in tapping sense) with 1/4 short sliders + longer slider combinations without any musical reason (become 2 spaced with 1/2 apart).
I specifically mention percussion since this can be okay in for example dubstep-like maps because they have short enough not-percussion effects that fit to these patterns.
I'm not going to go off-topic no more so in a case where I see appropriate to use is double 1/4 circles. I see some difficulty in playing double 1/4 so using a short 1/4 slider simplifies it better.

I don't know if I get what you mean correctly from the OP.
Topic Starter
Kert
Frostmourne

Kert wrote:

This clarifies everything I got thanks for it.
I find this partially appropriate to be done. Ruling it is way too limiting creativity, and it could work in some cases for playability.
It doesn't play bad if you ask me but that's just my opinion.
DakeDekaane

Lust wrote:

blissfulyoshi wrote:

No. Sounds are a vibration in the air, so they don't disappear instantly. Maps should never be forced to play as you would make the sound in real life.
Agreed. In addition, if the mapping technique didn't fit the song enough, then it would surely be worked out in the modding/ranking process.
You know this kind of techniques are really overlooked most of the time, just because they're "cool" :P

That's also why I say a guideline could be better if something comes out from here, there's this cases when they fit. An iron rule could be just opening another can of worms (like if this doesn't do it, lol).
captin1
there's enough rules as is, don't need to restrict things further for no reason other than someone's opinion

there should not ever be a "this is the way you should map this because it's right" because you're not right, nobody is right. it's up to how the mapper wishes to interpret the song.
Monstrata
Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.
Topic Starter
Kert

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.
In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition
Okoratu

Kert wrote:

That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition
Whose definition? He even gave his reasons for them and you just basically said "no that's wrong".
Monstrata
Sometimes I want to map the 1/4's without actually requiring players to play them. I already mentioned the stream/kickslider usage.

Kick-sliders are also great ways to create emphasis onto notes outside of the usual "jump"/flow-break/antijump techniques.

"Sliders are supposed to be held by definition." No, sliders are supposed to slide by definition. You just happen to be able to slide a kickslider simply by clicking on it because of its short length plus the large area covered by the slider-ball (which is twice the size of the slider-head). The mechanics of a slider are retained, even though you may think they play differently because they aren't held.

My two cents anyways.
CXu
When to use short sliders and when not to is mostly up to the mapper, what they want to achieve, the song, and their preference.



if we imagine that these 9 beats all has a drumbeat, where the 1st, 5th and 9th notes have a stronger drum sound than the others.
Depending on the song, a lot of different scenarios might fit well in context of the map. To name a few:


If the overall difficulty of the mapset is high, or the mapset focuses on streams etc, this might be the best option to use, as you emphasize the stronger beats by adding a minijump between them.

As many probably know, streamjumps can be tricky to get right. If a mapper wants to emphasize the stronger drums by minijumps, but don't want to use streamjumps (maybe because they would be too difficult compared to the overall difficulty of the song), they may opt to use these instead.

Fairly straightforward. Map the drums with a stream, and put emphasis with hitsounds. It's easier or harder than the previous one depending on if the player can or can't stream comfortably at that bpm. If your map focuses solely on streaming, and not on jumping, this could be a good idea.

Uses a jump to put emphasis again. So this is similar to 2, except easier in terms of finger speed, but harder in terms of finger control and aim. If the focus of the map is aiming or finger control, and not how fast you can move your fingers, this might fit better.


You could also just go with emphasizing the stronger beats with hitsounds like this. The emphasis then comes from audio, instead of your cursor-moving hand.

Hard difficulties and lighter insane difficulties might want to do this, as they're much easier to do than actually streaming. Emphasis comes from when you have to click to begin the next repeatslider.
Obviously, you can make one big repeatslider as well, using hitsounds for emphasis again.


Of course, some of these might fit in other mapping styles as well, so for example a map mostly focusing on jumps might still just use a regular compact stream, because it fits within the context of the map, or using only sliders might work well if there are drums in the background of a vocal, and you want to follow both at the same time, etc. The use of hitsounds for emphasis also makes it something passive, while using sliders to create more lenient jumps makes it an active way for a player to feel a more powerful beat.

Adding this as a rule would make case 2, 4 and 5 unrankable, and this is in only one scenario where the stronger beats are on the white ticks. There's also when a mapper uses a 1/2 slider to follow drumbeats where the first one is stronger than the second, or using 3/4 sliders + note to essentially mimic a slider where you have to hit both the head and tail of it (because of a held note where beginning and end are equally powerful). While I know you only talk about short sliders, I don't think it would make much sense to limit it only to short sliders. Sliders are still something you hold and slide, no matter how long they are, so if this affects drums in 1/4, they should affect 1/2, 1/1, 2/1 etc, which will create problems for easier difficulties as well. There's also a bunch of 1/3 songs which would be very difficult to map properly. And you'd have to define "short slider". 1/2 sliders at very high bpms? Are they shortsliders? What about long 1/4 sliders in lowbpm maps?



So basically, no I don't think sliders in general should be limited at all in this way. If someone as a mapper dislike using shortsliders, they may just use any other technique to follow the song instead. Then that's their interpretation of the song, and how to put emphasis on the right places. If someone as a player don't like them, then all they have to do is to not play them. If a player dislikes jumps, they go and find non-jumpy maps. Similarily, a player who dislikes shortsliders like these should find maps that don't include them.

While there indeed are a lot of maps mapped these days that use short sliders in a lot of different ways (or maybe just because they want variety in their map), doesn't mean people stopped using other options. Limiting this also won't necessarily mean that the players get more maps, or better maps with other techniques. I don't see any benefit to the community as a whole by "banning" these.

Just random numbers pulled from thin air, but let's say the current mappool of ranked maps have 80% of the maps with shortsliders, and 20% without. With this rule, we get 0% with shortsliders and 100% without. We just removed one option from every player in the game, just to cather to the playerbase that prefers the maps without them, even though they already have maps to play. Also, since these are a trend, the majority of the playerbase most likely like them or don't mind them, so you would essentially only help a minority that already has what they like, but only wants more of it, denying other players what they like completely.

tl;dr: Adding this as a rule would be dumb. Why dumb? read above.
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