! no hate please!Halogen- wrote:
As Kamikaze said: you cannot judge a map purely on theoretical ability. There are playability standards that should be adhered to, and the highest difficulty on this map is far from it. When you're going out of your way to get a bubble on this map, you are acknowledging that you have intent to expose this file to players, and you can't just insert something that you want because it "feels right." A 25-note 1/4 chord jack at 170 BPM is simply not acceptable under any constraint: I don't care in this particular case that it is an atonal repetition, and I wouldn't care if it was a repeated piano chord or something that would "theoretically merit" that kind of patterning: you wouldn't do it in any case because it's largely unplayable and is a huge difficulty spike with comparison to the rest of the map.
I think the jack pattern definitely does not go over the playability standards, if it actually exists. You said that the highest difficulty is far from it, and I do agree with you that indeed it is if one tries to fc it. The "playable" you stated above is clearly too much. It is absolutely doable, but hardto be executed perfectly. I am not going to pretend that many people can actually handle it, but I am pretty sure that at the same time, there are quite a few pro who believe they can do it and are willing to repeated challenge that pattern to proof their skills.
The purpose of beatmap modding is to get the map to the highest quality out of the beatmap. Those who are modding don't have to change one's attitude in most cases — however, when you have players who absolutely dislike the map, and various impartial people saying that the structure is basically unplayable/unenjoyable, that should be an immediate red flag that something like this is an issue. While juankristal might not have been the best at making his point by adding a bit of a tactless statement about the song/map, the point is that this map presents a serious issue for another reason as well:
I absolutely have no idea about the immediate red flag part. Why is it a "NO" just because, let's say 60% of the people(if you do go over the thread you will notice that 60% is way more than a conservative calculation) hate it? You should be aware of the fact that people out there are promoting this map with careful thoughts.The moment something like this hits ranked, it's going to assist in setting a precedence that states "well, ExPew managed to get this kind of map ranked, I should be able to do it too." This kind of mentality enables a snowfall effect that transcends this single map for the purpose of ranks: people will feel like they have the ability to "innovate" or "try something new" in a map, and to be perfectly honest: this isn't any sort of novelty or groundbreaking. It's just abusive patterning in a short section of the song that delivers nothing more than a substantial difficulty spike.juankristal wrote:
I hope you can see its not about skill, is about making the map more reasonable. Stuff like this in general are uncommon to see ranked and if you want to do it, you have to do it right. AiAe was a mistake, so will this map be if it hits ranked.
What are you afraid of? The danger of snowfall always exists, and it is not going to be an excuse for us to stop here and with our limited mapping styles stays unchanged for ages. Indeed jack pattern itself is not a new technique, but trying to use long jack pattern and corporate it with the rest of the map is definitely something we have not tried in the past. It opens up the discussion if patterns like this are actually usable in certain cases and I do not think it is wise to shut this down just because many people can't play this pattern at all.
We are not in the stage of snowfall. We have not even experienced a single snow due to the fact that how cautious we are. I 100% understand the fear you and Juan harbor, but I also have confidence that, even if Expew ranked his map and it failed the community miserably and someone tries the same thing later, instead of saying "well, Expew managed to get his shit ranked so I guess I should be able to do that too", our mappers, BNs and QATs will say "hey did you see those salty comments and replays on the scoreboard? Don't try that and we won't rank map like that anymore".I think you're disregarding the fact that, if I'm interpreting the context correctly within the course of the thread and the post that ExPew made: he nerfed the ending with respect to criticisms provided, only to decide to put it back right at the end of the map's modding cycle (basically post Kuo's bubble). And the whole concept of this map not violating any written rules of the RC is a stupid excuse, let's drop that right at the door — it's a pathetic excuse of a shield for the purpose of trying to let something that has been established as subjectively incorrect and poorly done by both mappers and players (polarization in rankings). I've yet to see anyone that the difficulty aims to target, who is impartial to the situation, react positively about the structure of this map. In fact, I personally was tipped off about this map's infamy for the same reason that this map was disqualified, and alone speaks volumes. This is not something that should pass.richardfeder wrote:
The map doesn't violet any written rules in the RC. You said that this map was disqualified for a reason and it has not yet been addressed. What I can see from both disqualification posts is that, QATs put this down for spaces to discuss and Expew to justify his mapping or make any changes if necessary, and Expew indeed went through mods and replied. Did you interpret the disqualification post as a denial to certain part of the map? No one disqualified this map because any parts are absolutely unacceptable and have to be changed because they violate RC or anything. Indeed the jack part is not considered as common sense in mania mapping by some people, but there are also folks who like it and are looking forward to see how pros, or themselves, smash through that part. In their opinion, the jack parts are absolutely an authentic expression of the music and are parts that make this map special.
I am not trying to say that he does not violate any written laws so he is safe. Sorry for not saying my thoughts in a clean, understandable way.
Please allow me to rephrase what I tended to say in my previous post. We have so little rules which gives us the maximum potential to express our interpretation freely, and as long as it is justified reasonably, it should not be easily denied. Same, if you are going to say no, you have to voice your concern with details. A undefined idea "Unplayable"(where's the boundary? No no can fc = unplayable? 70% players can't catch 70% of the notes in the jack part = unplayable? Or no one can actually pass it is a true "unplayable"?) sounds so rude and arrogant compares to how much efforts modders, BNs who support this map with their reasons stated.
I was thinking about Juan saying Expew did not fix any "QAT's concern" when I typed my previous post. All I wanted to say before is that Expew did not violate and written rules and QAT did not disqualified the map, saying that "you must change this part" ect.. There's no such "QAT's concern". They DQ-ed for more discussions so that we all can sit down and talk about this before everything is settled too quickly.
A good mapper knows how to express the music properly, while still making it approachable for the players who want to play it. This is not approachable under any circumstance. If my memory serves me correctly, even jakads, who is #1 in the game statistically at the moment, a player that has spent time crushing all varieties of maps in the game, was not able to properly play the ending of your not even 6* map.
There's no guarantee that if you S-ranked all 5* maps then when you download the next 5* maps you are going to pass it. It is highly likely that you can handle it well, but sometimes not. As you know Tom's algorithm has been helping us a ton, but it is also true that the star rating system we have right now still cannot handle certain patterns for instances heavy LNs and jacks. You know that this is actually not 6* at all.
I am still note sure what do you mean by saying properly. I am not, and I guess no one, maybe including himself, is expecting jakads or someone else crushes that part easily. Are you expecting him to perform "properly"?
Also someone fixes my grammar please..
Edit: Oh Juan addressed the spike. Should we move on and talk about that actually..
btw correct me if I am wrong. BNs can still bubble and pop this as long as they have not placed any icon here yet.