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CtB Difficulty Guideline Discussion

posted
Total Posts
31
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari
Current guidelines for CtB seem a bit outdated and bland and I would like to open up a discussion on this to maybe help improve them and help new and current mappers alike with a 'template' of sorts for making a difficulty.

Here is my opinion:

I think that the current difficulty guidelines are Catch the Beat are too vague and are not very clear. The current "guidelines" are on the Modding Academy (Found here) are very basic and don't fit the formal layout the academy deserves.
Example from the Modding Academy:

Deif wrote:

  1. Overdose: FCable for the top players. A challenge for the rest!
This overdose example isn't very clear on what an Overdose actually is, 'top players' is very vague and does involve opinions for the most part so isn't very informative like the academy should be.
Another large gap is the AR and HP values that we generally do follow. Although we do have a thread on that somewhere, it isn't very prominent and I think this should be added to the Academy or atleast displayed somewhere more visable.

EDIT: Beatmap management is open to viewing by normal members, a thread on this topic can be found here.
Last edited by Riari , edited 1 time in total.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey
Many rules and/or guidelines for CTB still need to be way more detailed before they actually can be set in stone. Especially for new mappers it is hard to understand the actual conditions when a map really can be considered as Cup, Salad, Platter, Rain or Overdose. More profound rules are required to facilitate the mapping process for anyone who plans to map CTB. Gonna delineate a few examples of what I exactly mean:

  1. Beneath which BPM can 1/4 HDashes be allowed in Platters?
  2. Under which exact reason does AR and OD need to be constant?
  3. How much can AR and OD vary in a difficulty if the mapper decides not to keep these constant?
  4. Which difficulty allows 1/8 mapping? Is this also related to the BPM?
  5. How long does a spinner need to be in CTB difficulties, especially in Cups?
...and so on...

I could continue with that list, but I guess you see the point.
Thanks for opening this Thread, Riari. I look forward to see the community involved in that (which probably won't happen inside the Ranking Criteria Forums.).
Last edited by Sey , edited 2 times in total.
ursa
1,302 posts
Joined April 2010
ursa
Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
as i just checked, this seems pretty accurate, there are only some edge cases
i would say that people should have a -0.20/+0.20 or -0.30/+0.30 window to decide
which difficulty Name would fit their difficulty more "mappingwise"
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
I think current star-rating in CtB is quite awful and that an overhaul with the PP update we will eventually get would be great and a systematic guideline with would work wonders but I don't think it would fit right now.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

Riari wrote:

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
I think current star-rating in CtB is quite awful and that an overhaul with the PP update we will eventually get would be great and a systematic guideline with would work wonders but I don't think it would fit right now.
big dreams
Last edited by iiyo , edited 2 times in total.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey
There should not be any guideline about Star Rating in CTB difficulties since they are measured by osu!standard criterions, by now.
If a difficulty really can be seen as the difficulty after which it was named can only be seen whilst gameplay. As long as there is no distinct formula the star rating cannot be seen as a guide for any distinction between those.
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
I thought Deluge was just meant to be a harder Overdose that only applies if necessary, also? ._.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari

Dainesl wrote:

I thought Deluge was just meant to be a harder Overdose that only applies if necessary, also? ._.
That is a point that can be addressed in this thread, difficulties are currently too vague and questions like this pop up because of it.

I personally think Deluges ARE secondary overdoses for the most part, as I believe there is no real reason for a true difficulty tier after Overdoses.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
And I see no reasons to have 2 times the same difficulty tier.
- Rii -
189 posts
Joined December 2013
- Rii -

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
yea rite, ppl gonna spam more boring long jumps and call it an overdose/deluge

but on serious note though, i think star rating is a good method if it's good at the very first place. then add some a bit detailed pattern criteria for the ranking
Ioka
104 posts
Joined September 2013
Ioka

Sey wrote:

There should not be any guideline about Star Rating in CTB difficulties since they are measured by osu!standard criterions, by now.
If a difficulty really can be seen as the difficulty after which it was named can only be seen whilst gameplay. As long as there is no distinct formula the star rating cannot be seen as a guide for any distinction between those.
I 100% agree with Sey on this one. I personally don't see why star rating should effect what we describe as a cup/salad/platter..etc, considering that in CTB the star rating/pp is pretty broken. I think we should just set general ground rules as to what is allowable in certain difficulties as we have before but....I think those need some changes as well, like the 1/4 slider debate in platters....
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
1,012 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
Not always true.

one of my maps killed everyone but only got 6.4 rating (no bug object placed)
but I've seen a lot of people HR HID 6.5 ++ ranked maps.

Also, separate Deluge and Overdose will be a bad idea, there should not be a difference in difficult for these 2.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I already said what I think about this so I'm not going to repeat it. Although I can say it would be nice to add some advice to the difficulties, like for Overdose "1/8 HDashes are allowed". And the difficulty settings as well although I included that in the example thread what I sent to every BAT here.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari
Futile attempt to res this discussion.


Maps like Nekomata Master - Avalon no oka have a very unique overdose, we consider things such as 1/8 HDashes and such within overdoses, but does this fit within that area? Great example of what difficulty can be rather than being focused around HDashes and such.
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
If only for the sole fact of the difficulty name being weird (and Salad is capitalised normally).
Zoe
149 posts
Joined June 2011
Zoe

Riari wrote:

Futile attempt to res this discussion.
+1

ursa wrote:

Discuss :

Star rating for ctb

CUP - Salad = 3 - 4.80 star
Plater = 4.80 - 5.75 star
Rain = 5.80 - 6.20 star
Overdose = 6.20 - 6.99 star
Deluge = 7.00 star
I always thought that Deluge was just another name for Overdose. Either way, I don't think we need to have them as 2 separate difficulties.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey
From my own personal experience Deluges lay above the level of an Overdose.
Still keeping my point that CTB difficulties cannot be measured by star rating anyway, at least by now.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Actually we can, but I rather not. Better if we just testplay it and see if its acceptable or not.
ursa
1,302 posts
Joined April 2010
ursa
this thread is dead , better let's revive it .

& Let's talk about something that constructive

"What do you think about Overmapped on CTB diff ? & don't forget to Give explain case about this one"
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I think it depends on the level of the overmaping. For example if there is just a few triplet for higher combo to make difference from the diff below then it can be accepted with care. On the other hand when the map is full with no sense triplets/streams/whatever then it needs to be re-mapped from the beginning. Its not because it can't be played, its because with Hidden (for example) if the jump makes no sense in rhythm then it will be pain to catch it. The player needs to learn the timing for it, and so on. This is really painful for 3 minutes and results a very bad map.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey

ursa wrote:

"What do you think about Overmapped on CTB diff ? & don't forget to Give explain case about this one"
The same as in o!s, Taiko and o!m: It's shit. Why would you map beats which do not even appear in the rhythm? It's not making any sense; osu is a rhythm game afterall, well... supposed to be... many overmappers don't seem to care. When parts of a beatmap are overmapped these are simply unrankable until the mapper is willed to erase the notes that don't follow anything at all. People that think overmapping is cool seem obsessed with extreme shit but not with enjoyableness of a beatmap.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30
for me Overmapping in CTB is more then just "note's without a beat"
there are 2 factor's that let me feel like a beatmap is overmapped when playing it
1.The Movement feels to rapid to the speed of the song ( Too High AR on a Song that sounds very calm and relaxing)
2.The beats are not set to convert the rhytm to a fitting chain of movements but to make it hard to play (difficulty for the sense of difficulty)
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari

Sey wrote:

ursa wrote:

"What do you think about Overmapped on CTB diff ? & don't forget to Give explain case about this one"
The same as in o!s, Taiko and o!m: It's shit. Why would you map beats which do not even appear in the rhythm? It's not making any sense; osu is a rhythm game afterall, well... supposed to be... many overmappers don't seem to care. When parts of a beatmap are overmapped these are simply unrankable until the mapper is willed to erase the notes that don't follow anything at all. People that think overmapping is cool seem obsessed with extreme shit but not with enjoyableness of a beatmap.
This pretty much explains it for me too. If it's not there, you don't map it, it's as simple as that. If there is a problem with a higher difficulty that requires a higher score, it's not a problem with the difficulty that is "harder" but the one that is easier, it's not meant to have a complex rhythm like the harder difficulties so there is no need to force overmapping in any cases in my opinion.

death to 1/16 repeating sliders
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
1/16 repeat slider is not an overmap. Its like a hold slider in Standard or more like in osu!stream. There is nothing wrong with it since there can be a rhythm in song where it could be mapped. For example a higher leveled stream can be mapped as a hold slider to increase the max combo, this has nothing to do with the difficulty anyway. You only need to stand in a place to catch them. Yes, 1/4 can't be mapped as 1/16 but 1/8 can be on higher bpm since its hard to recognize the difference anyway.

This is just my opinion but as it looks like everyone thinks differently from me.
Seph
Seph

ursa wrote:

"Overmapped on CTB diff"
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist?m=2&r=0&g=0&la=0

In all seriousness though, I (note, "I" in case you'd flame me for my opinion) think that the maps nowadays have gone off the board, to be honest it was way better before when it started.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey

Kingkevin30 wrote:

for me Overmapping in CTB is more then just "note's without a beat"
there are 2 factor's that let me feel like a beatmap is overmapped when playing it
1.The Movement feels to rapid to the speed of the song ( Too High AR on a Song that sounds very calm and relaxing)
2.The beats are not set to convert the rhytm to a fitting chain of movements but to make it hard to play (difficulty for the sense of difficulty)
1. Too high AR on a slow song has nothing to do with overmapping. This would need a separate discussion. Overmapping is... as the name already says... map too much stuff, mostly on ticks that don't follow ANYTHING. And USUALLY mappers are willed to fix that in my mods because they didn't even recognize they were overmapping in the first place. That's why it's so important to use 25% playback rate ALL THE TIME.

2. Overmapping makes the parts only challenging because you don't expect notes to appear somewhere where they normally shouldn't. And this makes it awkward, then I also could play the game without any music since it's not following the rhythm anyway. If you know challenging patterns and well mapping concepts your map can be challenging, even without overmapping.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Overmapping can be done in a way you can't recognize it during gameplay. For example instead of a 1/2 slider you use an 1/4 repeat slider. Of course, the usage is really depends on the song itself. My opinion is that overmapping in CtB is totally possible w/o any harm if the song accept such a rhythm.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
Riari

Kurokami wrote:

Overmapping can be done in a way you can't recognize it during gameplay. For example instead of a 1/2 slider you use an 1/4 repeat slider. Of course, the usage is really depends on the song itself. My opinion is that overmapping in CtB is totally possible w/o any harm if the song accept such a rhythm.
Overmapping is possible in every mode, saying it causes no harm doesn't register with me and I hate to see people use notes and timelines that do not fit the song (in this case, the 1/2 sounding better than the 1/4 for a use of your example) all for the sake of 'flow', though thats just my opinion on this.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
star rating has been always a bad way to tag the difficulties, learn from the past :l
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Riari wrote:

Overmaping is possible in every mode, saying it causes no harm doesn't register with me and I hate to see people use notes and timelines that do not fit the song (in this case, the 1/2 sounding better than the 1/4 for a use of your example) all for the sake of 'flow', though that's just my opinion on this.
"Sounds" is a weird way to put since all you need is "catch". When you don't put hitsounds to that note (or repeat in this case) that doesn't sound at all since it get covered up with the notes around it. Catching two fruits with a team of droplets or catching 3 fruits with a few droplet has no real difference, you only need to watch the start and the end of that note then jump. The fruit in the middle is just an add-on, you will catch it while goes for the 3rd one.

Yes, it can sounds really bad if they used badly. But we (modders) are here to point these out and suggesting removal of the bad notes. There are cases and songs where overmaping is possible (such as breakcore) and I think its bad to entirely drop the idea of overmaping and disallow it.
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