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Official osu! Tournament ideas.

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Doomsday
Featured Artist
1,961 posts
Joined July 2008
Doomsday

ignorethis wrote:

I suggest that certain maps with too high difficulties should not be picked. Take kanbu as an example, we know that some players have practised hard to get high scores, while most people have not. If one player is faced with another practised player, it'll be a bit unfair. Same for WIWIM, marisa, etc.

Maps like Justice to Believe are ok, because no one is required to be specially trained for playing well.
difficulty is subjective though. some people might find maps like that to be easier or harder than other people find them.

also, i don't think this should be much of an issue, since if a player did choose Kanbu or something like that, the other player has to choose the difficulty, and odds are they'll pick an easier difficulty to throw their opponent off or something. for this purpose, i assume no approved maps are allowed in this
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Doomsday93 wrote:

odds are they'll pick an easier difficulty to throw their opponent off or something.
I somehow doubt that.

Anyway, I think it's a non-issue, ignorethis. If a player can't play one of the difficulties of a map set, don't choose that map set. That way, your opponent can't choose the difficulty you suck at.
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice

Daru wrote:

Since star rating is a constant throughout all songs (whereas difficulty name can vary), I think we should use that. Also, if both players agree to a lower-starred song, then it should be allowed, but if one player objects to a difficulty that is below the minimum star requirement, then the difficulty will have to be raised. This is opposed to, if the song is above the minimum star requirement, it cannot be objected to.
I would much rather have a Judge decide whether specific difficulties are allowed or not, while this is subjective it's way more reliable than the star rating where even normal difficulties raise above 4 stars.
Yes this would require a judge to check the difficulties of a specific mapset, which would be no problem if players have to send in chosen mapsets beforehand.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

@Strager
@STRAGER
@sTRAGER
fu =[

Cyclone wrote:

How about we set the bare minimum to 3 stars, unless agreed upon by BOTH players. With this, no mapsets with ALL difficulties under 3 stars can be selected.

Discuss please.
Sounds good to me.
Ryohan
794 posts
Joined July 2008
Ryohan

Cyclone wrote:

How about we set the bare minimum to 3 stars, unless agreed upon by BOTH players. With this, no mapsets with ALL difficulties under 3 stars can be selected.
Discuss please.
^
+1

I think that this is great idea :D
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
I'll start a temporary poll on the matter.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
OP has been updated.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
3 to 3.5 should be the minimum IMO.

Mainly because there are a few Hards that are 3.5. These mostly are a low BPM. But they feel much more like a Hard than a Normal.

Most 3 to 3.5s are often only that low because A. low BPM, B. they have spurts of beats, then a second or three without beats but not long enough for a break, then repeat, whereas 4+ star maps are constant throughout, or C. a combination of those two.

Point is, they often aren't significantly easier when you are actually playing them.

Of course, it's mainly maps from around the time I joined or before that are like this. But even the easiest Hards are 3.5; can't think of one lower than that. 3.5 or 3 should be the minimum IMO, just because of a few more modern exceptions, and some old classics.

I do think that the judge-chosen maps should have a higher star minimum due to this very reason, though. 4.5 seems about right.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Okay, I noticed there may be a problem with some beatmap sets which only have very difficult maps (like many approved maps). So, I think there should be restrictions on what beatmap sets can be chosen, too.

E.g. a beatmap set may only be chosen if it is approved, contains at least two difficulties, and one difficulty is below X stars and one is above or equal to X stars (where X is some limit defined by the poll or whatever).
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
I only stated ranked maps in the OP. I never mentioned approved.

EDIT: I'll specify in the OP
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

gopice wrote:

This is because the the star rating overestimates the influence by the overall difficulty setting and doesn't take
spacing into account.
You obviously don't understand how the star rating is derived.

gopice wrote:

Like I said earlier couldn't you just ask players to send chosen mapsets beforehand and ban certain difficulties?
It's better to have set rules than make a million exceptional cases.
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice

strager wrote:

You obviously don't understand how the star rating is derived.
Actually I do. Have you reflected the algorithm and checked for yourself? I guess not.
There is no taking account of spacing in anywhere in the algorithm.

strager wrote:

It's better to have set rules than make a million exceptional cases.
I agree to this, except for the fact that a star difficulty limitation isn't a good rule to rely on, as the star difficulty is a too inaccurate representation of the real difficulty.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice
This strategy can be enforced either way as there there are also a lot of maps with no real hard difficulties (which still have a high star rating).
That being said, most of the ranked maps with ridiculous difficulties also have a a lesser more playable difficulty with still a relatively high star rating. examples: I Want You [tough], chocobo[black] and 1985[Rolled]
Your case should not pose a real problem.

On the other hand people who want to play an easier difficulty on both games could choose a map like this:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/21895 I have no choice to choose the hard difficulty which is just as easy as the contemporary normal difficulties.
then if I want to play any insane map like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/4564.
they could choose the normal difficulty instead. In both cases the difficulties have a minimum of 4 stars.

Which is why I'm against the star limit as it's just too unreliable.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

How about we (the judges) post which songs are allowed each round, listing any limitations to them, such as which difficulties are allowed. We'll be sure to pick plenty based on how many participants there are per round (I'd say like 50 songs for a round of 64 players)
Similar to the tag tourney? I have no objections.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

Cyclone wrote:

After talking to Gabi, we've come up with this:

How about we (the judges) post which songs are allowed each round, listing any limitations to them, such as which difficulties are allowed. We'll be sure to pick plenty based on how many participants there are per round (I'd say like 50 songs for a round of 64 players)

With this, the "opponent picks difficulty" rule is abolished, and everything is fair game on the list.


Discuss.
Completely agreed.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
@Cyclone: Seems good.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
OP updated.

Any more issues with anything?
Lucidity
132 posts
Joined December 2008
Lucidity

Cyclone wrote:

Song Selection:
  1. High seed gets first song choice, low seed selects the 2nd song.
  2. In the result of a tie, the judge will select the 3rd song. Choice will always be highest difficulty available on the song.
  3. Songs must be selected from a list generated by the Judges.
If you and Gabi will be selecting the songs that are eligible, is the part in bold really necessary? I trust that you won't be choosing songs completely at random, but rather (eg) choose a random song and then decide whether it's appropriate for the tourney. During the song selection process you could specify which difficulties are allowed, and which aren't. The problem with some songs' highest difficulties have been highlighted earlier in the thread. (Some people practicing a difficulty 1000x for a high score, while others don't etc) Most of these songs have an appropriate Hard or "playable" insane difficulty as well.

Restricting a choice to the highest difficulty is akin to using the previous star rating method...Neither will work nicely in all cases. A subjective valuation is definitely needed and it shouldn't be too much trouble to specify eligible difficulties for each song.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
We'll still be picking from the pre-selected list of songs. The list also includes any difficulties we aren't allowing. I fail to see the issue there.
Lucidity
132 posts
Joined December 2008
Lucidity
Right, I read that as the choice for all song choices, not just the tie breaker choice. :oops:

Will difficulties such as kanbu's insane be excluded from the tournament then? If not, then you might want to consider allowing players to play an easier difficulty if both agree.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Lucidity wrote:

Will difficulties such as kanbu's insane be excluded from the tournament then? If not, then you might want to consider allowing players to play an easier difficulty if both agree.
You mean Kanbu's hard? ;P
Lucidity
132 posts
Joined December 2008
Lucidity
.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
but kanbu is only hard and not insane :<

something like that yeh, it is under control of what maps will be picked atleast thats safe to say :>
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

Hanyuu wrote:

Also you need to create a rule about match finding. in the tag tournament it was a problem not only for the players but also a problem for gabi to organize matches. that was the greates problem for everyone. make a strict rule or this will take months again
i doubt that it will be a problem in this tournament. in the tag tournament we needed 4 people compared to this tournament which is only 2. timezones will be much easier to handle now aswell.

but ofcourse there will be a rule for how long a match can go on, so don't worry about it.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

Derekku Chan wrote:

Maybe this will give me motivation to get a new computer finally... I really don't trust my laptop enough for multi... (I hardly trust it in solo orz)
Aaand I have my new computer .3.

I hate to semi-necro this, but is there any news regarding a future tournament? Summer would probably be the best time for one, but there's only a couple of months left until fall... :X
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
Somebody say something to Echo. If he cannot finish what he had planned, then I'll work something else out.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Yes but how do you get a hold of Echo? i've tried contacting him countless times but he is never there when i try to speak to him on IRC.
Feno_old
179 posts
Joined March 2009
Feno_old
Hmm,if ideas are still being accepted I got something:
When the tournament date is set and all that,how about some experienced mapper/mappers take the time to create a map specifically for like the semi finals and the final match,the map won't be submitted until the tourney reaches it's end. My reasoning for this is that if maps are created just for the finals,and revealed not long before that,then the match will be based purely on skill,instead of maybe "Yeeah,I played this map 1534621 times,I got this!" while the other guy has played it like twice. Both players will have to sightread it,and the one who has the overall better skill should come out as the winner. I know it might be a silly idea but w/e xD
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Yeah, this would be done already if we had a tournament ^^
Lunah_old
Lunah_old
what do you think about a "WORLD CUP"

4v4, country vs country .. this is so awesome ~ like a south africa world cup :3

for example, organizer choose a captain for country, and he choose 3 players for make national team
Lissette
osu! Alumni
1,496 posts
Joined July 2008
Lissette

LoweH wrote:

what do you think about a "WORLD CUP"

4v4, country vs country .. this is so awesome ~ like a south africa world cup :3

for example, organizer choose a captain for country, and he choose 3 players for make national team
ohh *.* i like this <33
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

LoweH wrote:

what do you think about a "WORLD CUP"

4v4, country vs country .. this is so awesome ~ like a south africa world cup :3

for example, organizer choose a captain for country, and he choose 3 players for make national team

It's cool idea, but not fair for less-skilled players, which wouldn't be able to play in this tournament. No limits of teams from a single country should solve this problem.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
Team Poland: kuburaczek, ShaggoN, White Wolf, any 4th person.

tournament over
Doomsday
Featured Artist
1,961 posts
Joined July 2008
Doomsday

Lybydose wrote:

Team Poland: kuburaczek, ShaggoN, White Wolf, any 4th person.

tournament over
Brazil were the favourites for the World Cup, and look what happened to them. Could happen to these lot.

That said, it seems like a nice idea, but it would definately be dominated by the countries with a bigger user base (China/Poland/Japan etc).
I'd still prefer a 1 v 1 tournament
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi

LoweH wrote:

4v4, country vs country .. this is so awesome ~ like a south africa world cup :3
I'd say 3 vs 3 + 1 judge~

But I like this idea :3
Lunah_old
Lunah_old
Everyone can fans for their country so xD ~
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Ladder? /o\
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

strager wrote:

Ladder? /o
ladder is difficult to manage
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
I'm guessing this has already been mentioned, but there should be a qualifier. The top (however many) people in the qualifier get to move onto the actual tournament~.
DeathxShinigami
1,176 posts
Joined November 2008
DeathxShinigami
How about a general scoreboard/elimination method? List the players by their amount of score or whatever and then set a cap where players have to reach the amount needed to make it to the next round.
Sup A Noob
555 posts
Joined November 2009
Sup A Noob

Feno wrote:

Hmm,if ideas are still being accepted I got something:
When the tournament date is set and all that,how about some experienced mapper/mappers take the time to create a map specifically for like the semi finals and the final match,the map won't be submitted until the tourney reaches it's end. My reasoning for this is that if maps are created just for the finals,and revealed not long before that,then the match will be based purely on skill,instead of maybe "Yeeah,I played this map 1534621 times,I got this!" while the other guy has played it like twice. Both players will have to sightread it,and the one who has the overall better skill should come out as the winner. I know it might be a silly idea but w/e xD
My idea is more hardcore.

Make every map new for QF/SF/Finals. Balances out the tournament, and I won't get to scream "THIS GUY GRINDED THIS MAP NOT FAIR!" if I ever lose or something.

I'm just more concerned about the timezone differences. What if you had to play against someone on the other side of the world?
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
For timezone differences, players will just need to try and find a time that works for both of them.

However, I think that Gabi previously judged each side of a match separately for players that couldn't make a time work for them.
Last edited by Derekku , edited 1 time in total.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Correct, i have some other ideas aswell on how to deal with timezones. It's just so far i've found the one i used for my tournament the easiest one to deal with. Try not to worry about it guys, but please feel free to suggest any ideas you might have ^^
Sup A Noob
555 posts
Joined November 2009
Sup A Noob
I feel the biggest problem is the balance issues between players. While not entirely impossible to create individual maps for individual rounds, it would be asking too much from all the beatmappers, so I suspect in the end we'll have to use existing maps in the competiton.

Which is a problem, because many players grind maps. You played that map about five time, he's played it 200 times and has an FC with Hidden and Flashlight. It obviously takes out the balance factor since he knows the map so much better than you. We can use Hard Rock to flip the note chart, but in harder difficulty maps Hard Rock makes them impossible to play unless - yes, you play until you FC it.

A possible solution apart from that is to somewhat find a way to look at the ENTIRE played beatmaps history of the players and then pick a song which has not been played or played little times by both players. It's viable because while it is possible for a player to play every beatmap available in osu!, it is not possible for that same player to play ALL the beatmaps until he gets an FC for all of them.

I just want a tournament now, though I'd probably lose.
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