@Fafeluke

All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

Aqo wrote:

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

This is a great point -- there are probably a number of players who actually use hidden to legitimately reduce the number of objects/notes on screen. Score shouldn't be increased under any hidden circumstance. Fade in produces a similar effect, just the opposite portion of the screen.

However, FL is a different exception -- the amount of space that you have to read guarantees that you will have to lower your scroll speed by a tremendous amount. At this point, you'd likely being reading something incredibly dense or memorizing the chart. Either way, for consistency's sake, it would be a better idea just to leave the multipliers both at 1.00x.

About DT.
I personally have been pro ranking DT in the past, but here's a few reasons why I'm against it now.

As you know, there's the problem that we can't beat nomod scores with DT where the DT scores might have given better pp.
This is because only the highest scores are stored.
Apparently it's also not possible for the algorithm to consider the best DT plays if they are not the highest score, unless some big revamps are done that are probably not going to happen.

The best solution, is to treat DT as an entire different map with a different scoreboard.
An acceptible solution imo, is to consider the best DT plays not only the highest scores.

Both of which are probably not going to happen.

Suboptimal solutions:
- letting people delete their nomod scores so that they can make their highest score a DT play. This is currently not possible server-side.
- a constant score multiplier for DT. The reason this is suboptimal is because complex LN charts will only get a little bit harder, while maps that have already high bpm streams and/or jacks become nearly impossible.
- a non-constant score multiplier could work fine technically I think, but I don't think that's going to happen because of the coding work needed and the aesthetic scoreboard problems.

This is why I suggest unranking DT. I know that it's great for expert players to have a way to get the pp they deserve, but it might be better to wait until harder maps get ranked instead of suboptimal solutions.
Hidden message: rank harder maps.

Xcrypt wrote:

rank harder maps.

^





DT!mania

I would still stick on "no bonus for DT" unless DT version of a map make another scoreboard someday.

Just like what Aqo said,















DT!mania

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

[TaikoTori] wrote:

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes

And I would make a 3rd option:
You can only get pp for mania-diffs and the converted maps are for fun/the song/or training or something different
Because I think it would be easier with just a few maps that nothing is "overrated" or "underrated".

Xenlon wrote:

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes.

I think the community (-> us) would complain about certain ratings from said team if something seems way off.
That also includes the need of fair members of that team that actually listen to the community when arguing.

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

Tom94 wrote:

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

I see.. that conflicts in score system. I wonder what will change. If there's going to be an unranking score feature just to have DT score, that would be a problem in ranking scoreboard of the song (Mostly top 10 will be no mods and DTs are uhh.. ). If DT will be implemented by score multiplier, the whole mania ranking will change because scores are passing through the limit 1M. (meaning re-playing all the songs we just recorded back then and new sets of scoreboards of all songs).

Can someone explain to me how did i improve my acc in 5/6 musics from 97% to 99%, and still my overall acc went from 99.28% to 99.11%?
This has anything to do with this new pp system?

DT shouldn't be counted since we have 1M limit of score, and we can easly get higher score without mods. And other way around if we have high score nomod play (wanted to top 50 for example) we can't beat it with DT and we get less pp than somebody who's doing worse than us with DT but didn't have a score before. And there's no point in going for top 50 anymore, just play with DT and get way more pp, it shouldn't be this way imo

I would like to go back to a point I made a few weeks ago on this thread which was something along the lines of "Double Time sounds bad". At the end of the day Osu! is a game, in fact it's a rhythm game meaning it has a greater than average emphasis on music. One of the many reasons I play Mania is that I value how a game sounds, if a game sounds like **** I will not listen to it,just like I will not listen to DT regardless of how much it increases my rank.


Double Time is not the thing that bugged me the most about this patch though. Some of my "Best Performance" are from 5-6 months ago and I have absolutely no idea why; For a start these are all auto-converts which play absolutely nothing like mania maps do. Secondly I watched a reply of my "Best Performance" and the song was slow, long, boring but I only missed one note, which I can only assume is the reason it's up there. Finally, and the one that confuses me the most, the last time the PP system was broken this song was nowhere to be seen on my "Best Performance" .

I feel like I need to explain the cause of my anger here, because at the minute I just sound like someone who's butthurt at losing PP, which admittedly I am. I have improved on this game most days for the past 6 months to the point where I can score S ranks on a difficulty that I would not have even bothered to attempt and it feels like all that effort has been disregarded to the point where, aside from a few songs, I may as well have quit and played another game because it made absolutely no difference to my performance.

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.

October Scream wrote:

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

I'm seeing very subjective stuff here. Many people I've talked to speak differently about their DT scores. Don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you, a ranking system is supposed to please as many as possible.

October Scream wrote:

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.

The difference is, that an algorithm decides the difficulty of maps. I'm not sitting here giving maps difficulty values by hand. Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment. Having people determine the difficulty would automatically introduce bias. And a huge mess of management effort which isn't needed if an algorithm takes care of it. Not even speaking of the days if not weeks / months it'd take a team to work through every single ranked map and consent on a suitable difficulty.

Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass... You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

Drace wrote:

Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass...

Not true. Strains are not density. This is not "one" algorithm concept, more like a medium that represents how things get harder with time. It applies to any hard pattern, that if it constantly is of about the same difficulty, then it gets harder the longer it is. That's what strain values capture.

The algorithm has issues identifying which patterns are hard, that's true, and as I said I have several ideas (some from suggestions by Aqo) which will probably improve this.

Drace wrote:

You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.

I'm pretty sure there are some general rules that define which things make patterns hard, or at least approximate that well enough. The trick is to find that those rules.
Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns. That'd help immensely, and originally I had hoped for more of that kind of feedback. ^^'

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started.

Nothing stops anyone from getting it going. I for sure am not suitable for that job. I'm a horrible manager and know little about mania. And on top of that I don't have much time at my disposal. What I am good at, or at least think I am, is doing the algorithm stuff.
Do you know how I got in here? By making tp, a working system. If you, or anyone else manages to make a system, that's superior, then I am sure it'll get used.


Keep in mind, that I only have time for osu! as a part-time-job and have to also manage the other gamemodes. On top of that I was mostly busy building the pp infrastructure for this. I've spent maybe 10 hours tweaking this algorithm with barely any community feedback since I didn't have anything public to show. Give it some time and it won't be as bad, I can assure you that. From now on I'll have more time actually tweaking the algorithms.

It still seems like too much of a single-dimension approach in my opinion. There's many instances of maps with insanely lower density, which won't build up the strain values, that are much harder than high density because of how awkward the correlations between the patterns are with each other. In many cases maps show to be more of a confusing layout to play rather than a physical challenge.

I actually believe the physical side to difficulty to be a little less relevant since in most cases when a player reaches the reading skill required to play high speed maps that would require good stamina, he would of also have indirectly trained the physical abilities to do so.

I don't believe it's possible to algorithmically solve for a strain or difficulty value of patterns when even pro players encounter pattern that to their disbelief is much harder than they thought it'd be. Especially when, no offense, yourself and a big chunk and or your help and feedback (including myself) are players not experienced enough to accurately depict the exact dimensions of what makes a map more difficult than others. It also doesn't help that concept itself is a mostly abstract one either.

A good example of this is how the very same map can become much harder or much easier just by switching the lanes around, aka using random. I'm not joking when I say that some instances of random can have ridiculous effects on a song's difficulty. Yet both maps will the same per-lane strains, the same density, the same length and the same speed.

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

Do you think an automatic difficulty calculation algorithm is inherently broken? If that is the case, why?

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

October Scream wrote:

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

I don't think that solution would solve the problem about patterns being subjective, even, it would involve even more subjectivity (not all people would consider a difficulty of "21" the same), and it would add randomness (due to the judges not being always the same people; and even if they were the same people all the time, there is still an element of randomness in their own judgments).

Getting a list of maps with the difficulties determined the way you describe would be useful, though. With those values it would be possible to analyze in more detail how different elements make osu!mania maps difficult so the algorithm can be improved.

The thing about the algorithm path to determine difficulty levels is that it only needs to be done well once to make it work for all maps.

Tom94 wrote:

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I believe other people like Drace said what I just want to said below.

I'm not saying the algorithm is "wrong". It's always "correct" and reflect one kind of difficulty - based on a certain norm.
Actually, we everyone have a norm. For example, when I say that

xxbidiao wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy.

I implied that

xxbidiao's thought wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy. That's why I can't get good score on this song amongst other song of same "difficulty".

You should get what I mean - It's nonsense at all to the community, because other people may find it easy or even harder - in one word, have different thoughts. And it's all about the norm we set up during our years of rhythm gaming experience.

For instance, I started rhythm gaming on Taiko no Tatsujin and DJMAX / DDR, which is all note-biased. Without good experience on slider-style song, I'm good on IIDX style songs, but poor at O2-style songs.
However, Fate_Yakumo, another player who is of O2Jam expert, find these slider songs easy - He can S a song of O2Jam style that I can't pass. When coming to IIDX songs, instead of one-side winning, we are just at the same level, something 70% vs 30%.
You guess what? I always overrate slider-biased song, and he always overrate note-biased ones.

This example reflect 2 common norm in 7/8K: IIDX norm and O2Jam norm. There are also many more, and every key amount have multiple norms. Sadly they are not enough compact with each other. And whether you admit it or not, you are setting up your own norm.

Just like what you have said,

Tom94 wrote:

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much

You implied that "I'll degrade these players who is good at high-density pattern playing" (To some extent moving away from IIDX norm to O2Jam norm).

So this is why I keep saying that "This difficulty number does nothing with actual difficulty at all" and "We should try to admit there are weighted songs".
Considering the diversity of mania players, however you modify your algorithm, there are always some people winning, and some people losing.

My suggestion is, however hard it is, and however offence you made, a certain norm should be set up. Whether you choose BMS norm (note biased, density and jackhammers counts ) or O2Jam norm (slider biased, coordination counts) or even DDR norm (hand speed counts) or a mixture of them, Don't hesitate to say that "I mean to hurt you" because what norm you choose you hurt some people who have ability that the norm doesn't emphasize on. What's more, the process of letting players finding their weighted song is fun, isn't it?

-----------------

For the DT stuff, I actually have more to say.
Why do people come here to protest about DT score problem?
Actually it's not about scoring at all (People can play DT on the first run).
DT getting higher weight neglects the design of the osu!mania system.

You may have noticed that osu!mania has the most strict judgment with MAX even on OD0 (Actually OD0 and OD10 has no difference on timing of MAX). This is intended because most people agree that osu!mania should be different to other modes by having judgment emphasized, not combo. (o!m once calculate score just like o!standard and current scoring system is later decided.) The philosophy inside is that 1 more MAX is good.

However having DT heavier weighted, though completely reasonable, is going against this. People may achieve a just-so-so S score to win more PP then a SS with 90% MAX ratio. This put osu!mania far away from it's emphasize on judgment, to the extent that people just DTing every song regardless of judgment, and people no longer care about MAX ratio. This is surely what people don't want to see. (Feature requests on DT bonus score has been rejected multiple times both by faculty and players)

So unless ppy somewhat change the mechanism to make DT version of the beatmap a whole new one and have its separate scoreboard, I suggest no bonus for DT for now.

The algorithm is still unrefined and not final, give it some time. Being butthurt about it is not helping anyone. The guy who is doing effort trying to make your ranking system better for once is getting flamed around every corner, do you think that will be a positive influence for him? What we need is actual feedback.

I am slowly progressing on some small list of the maps I personally play of what is under/over rated myself and what patterns might be causing this, but I will need some more time before I can make conclusions. I suggest you could do this yourself with the maps you play too, because for example I can only judge intermediate maps: I have no understanding of beginner or ET maps. Even if you don't feel like you are really understanding what patterns are causing it to be harder/easier, just having a list will already be helpful. If you are considerably better at LN than chords, or vice versa, that might be worth noting aswell.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

It's still possible to take the average of the opinions of multiple people.
And yeah, a ranking system is inherently based on opinions. There will always be someone who completely disagrees with it, and that's completely valid.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

What exactly do you mean by that. What did you want to avoid? I've always wanted equal treatment of maps in regards to the difficulty constraints.

October Scream wrote:

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

It'd be impossible for me to manage the team itself, due to having only limited time and lack of knowledge about the gamemode.
But it would be great, if you guys could set something like this up. As long as the difficulty lists are incomplete it can be used as reference for the algorithm and if you actually manage to provide reliable and complete (all ranked maps, including converts for the beginning; _all_ uploaded maps in the end for the star rating) difficulty values that make a great ranking system, then I'm sure you can convince us to use it. That'd be an incredible feat, though.

xxbidiao wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I believe other people like Drace said what I just want to said below.

I'm not saying the algorithm is "wrong". It's always "correct" and reflect one kind of difficulty - based on a certain norm.
Actually, we everyone have a norm. For example, when I say that

xxbidiao wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy.

I implied that

xxbidiao's thought wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy. That's why I can't get good score on this song amongst other song of same "difficulty".

You should get what I mean - It's nonsense at all to the community, because other people may find it easy or even harder - in one word, have different thoughts. And it's all about the norm we set up during our years of rhythm gaming experience.

For instance, I started rhythm gaming on Taiko no Tatsujin and DJMAX / DDR, which is all note-biased. Without good experience on slider-style song, I'm good on IIDX style songs, but poor at O2-style songs.
However, Fate_Yakumo, another player who is of O2Jam expert, find these slider songs easy - He can S a song of O2Jam style that I can't pass. When coming to IIDX songs, instead of one-side winning, we are just at the same level, something 70% vs 30%.
You guess what? I always overrate slider-biased song, and he always overrate note-biased ones.

This example reflect 2 common norm in 7/8K: IIDX norm and O2Jam norm. There are also many more, and every key amount have multiple norms. Sadly they are not enough compact with each other. And whether you admit it or not, you are setting up your own norm.

Just like what you have said,

Tom94 wrote:

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much

You implied that "I'll degrade these players who is good at high-density pattern playing" (To some extent moving away from IIDX norm to O2Jam norm).

So this is why I keep saying that "This difficulty number does nothing with actual difficulty at all" and "We should try to admit there are weighted songs".
Considering the diversity of mania players, however you modify your algorithm, there are always some people winning, and some people losing.

My suggestion is, however hard it is, and however offence you made, a certain norm should be set up. Whether you choose BMS norm (note biased, density and jackhammers counts ) or O2Jam norm (slider biased, coordination counts) or even DDR norm (hand speed counts) or a mixture of them, Don't hesitate to say that "I mean to hurt you" because what norm you choose you hurt some people who have ability that the norm doesn't emphasize on. What's more, the process of letting players finding their weighted song is fun, isn't it?

-----------------

For the DT stuff, I actually have more to say.
Why do people come here to protest about DT score problem?
Actually it's not about scoring at all (People can play DT on the first run).
DT getting higher weight neglects the design of the osu!mania system.

You may have noticed that osu!mania has the most strict judgment with MAX even on OD0 (Actually OD0 and OD10 has no difference on timing of MAX). This is intended because most people agree that osu!mania should be different to other modes by having judgment emphasized, not combo. (o!m once calculate score just like o!standard and current scoring system is later decided.) The philosophy inside is that 1 more MAX is good.

However having DT heavier weighted, though completely reasonable, is going against this. People may achieve a just-so-so S score to win more PP then a SS with 90% MAX ratio. This put osu!mania far away from it's emphasize on judgment, to the extent that people just DTing every song regardless of judgment, and people no longer care about MAX ratio. This is surely what people don't want to see. (Feature requests on DT bonus score has been rejected multiple times both by faculty and players)

So unless ppy somewhat change the mechanism to make DT version of the beatmap a whole new one and have its separate scoreboard, I suggest no bonus for DT for now.

There definitely needs to be something done with DT, and removing the pp bonus of it is one possibility that's not unlikely to happen. I completely agree, that the current situation where DT and nomod share the same leaderboard and even the same score range is bad if DT is taken into consideration for pp.

Regarding what you said about norms: What speaks against rating multiple norms? Like "aim" and "speed" in standard. Sure, in the end someone will always be degraded, but it can't hurt to find a combination of norms that makes most people happy.
Long way to go, till the algorithm is refined enough for that, though. I wish I had more time at my disposal to work on it more, I apologize for the slow changes. :/

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

milky228 wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

Dropping your pp by beating your score is extremely unlikely in o!m. You'd need to get just barely more score with a lot worse accuracy for that to happen.

The rank drop most likely occured due to other people passing you, as it always has been already.

Hey,

Just checked the page of my new mapset that I submitted yesterday (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/380286&m=3).
The diff rating went from Easy and Normal to Hard and Insane for the first two diffs. Does this have anything to do with the changes being made with the diff rating and ranking system ?

PyaKura wrote:

Hey,

Just checked the page of my new mapset that I submitted yesterday (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/380286&m=3).
The diff rating went from Easy and Normal to Hard and Insane for the first two diffs. Does this have anything to do with the changes being made with the diff rating and ranking system ?

Most likely, since ranked mania maps star rating is fixed right now (no more Another's as Normal's ftw) for unranked maps it may be bugged/wrong tho

No more anothers as normals, maybe, but normals as insanes. And my 'normal's are easier than quite a lot of other peoples are.

There's no rational reason why this would be harder than this (to use 2 examples of maps made by me - the latter of which was degraded from low insane to high hard recently, and the former of which is a newly uploaded beatmap), unless there's some huge and irrational boost in difficulty from the single SV change near the end of the former.

That why I told that it's currently wrong on unranked maps, it seems good on all ranked maps, but idk why it's doing wrong calculations on unranked maps, well it's still WIP so we have to wait patiently

milky228 wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

Tom94 wrote:

Dropping your pp by beating your score is extremely unlikely in o!m. You'd need to get just barely more score with a lot worse accuracy for that to happen.

The rank drop most likely occured due to other people passing you, as it always has been already.

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.
I then proceeded to play http://osu.ppy.sh/b/21334 (A pretty underplayed and easy map) for fun. The last time I played the map was awhile ago, and I got a low B on it, today I got a mid A on it with DT mod. After finishing the map I drop to 8006, where I currently am. There was not an accuracy decrease, I scored higher, and dropped rank, this is what I was talking about earlier. I don't care a gigantic amount about it, but I do use it as a sort of progress indicator. Cases like this are really confusing, and I'd like to know if this is intended behavior, so far though I do like the new system considerably better, I just don't remember this particular thing happening before.

If it's intended for me to drop in this manner I'll stop playing when inebriated or tired w.w""

Thing O Doom wrote:

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.

I don't think playing an unranked map triggers a rank refresh.

Full Tablet wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.

I don't think playing an unranked map triggers a rank refresh.

The box with rank still flashes red, and updates from what I could tell, seeing as pass/fail stats are tracked for unranked maps?

pp only updates when you get a new high score on a map. It can be your first pass on a map you never played or it can be beating your best score on another map. Only ranked maps count, unranked ones won't trigger any change.

我覺得應該要把所有分數統一!不然因為有些玩家是專練4K完7K歌根本被7K玩家壓分!排名就只有玩7K的玩家排前很不公平

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit. No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Actually Staiain is one of the best 4K players in the world and he certanly deserves to be in top 50, even if he isn't that good at 7K, (air raid pls), but I get your point with ridiculus DT scalings. It's gotten to a point where you can get 1K pp for just playing autoconverts with 4K mod and even more with DT. It's definitly what we don't want to see. Autoconverts and DT are too heavily weighted imho